Breeding ?

[Scooter's Mom]

My husband has been wanting to find someone to breed Oreo with. He's registered, not altered, 4 years old... super friendly!

I'm trying to convince him it's a bad idea, as there are so many dogs out there in need of homes. But, I think he's of the opinion we'd get something ($ wise) for "stud services". And, with all of my hospital bills ($89k this year alone, Thank God for insurance, I don't have to pay nearly that much, just a percentage of it) some $$ would definately be welcome.

If he's going to go through with it, how do I ensure he finds someone GOOD to breed Oreo with? Are there questions I should ask them to make sure they're not a typical byb?

*sigh*
Crystal

[luvofallhorses]

you know it will be better for both of you if he is just fixed. :) if you want another dog, adopt one from a shelter or rescue. :) there's too many homeless dogs in this world already waiting for their forever homes and we don't need anymore. :(

[crow_noir]

Make sure you know all the diseases that regularly crop up in the breed. Get familiar with the tests that are done. Look to see that the breeder does the testing for those on the pups.

See how involved they are with their dogs and the pups they produce. Do they check up on them? Are their dogs involved in activities common to the breed? (I.E. agility or herding if it were a Border Collie) Canine Good Citizen? Therapy dogs? Companion Dog titles, etc.

How are they with people coming to their home? Are you allowed to see where the mother (father if he's on site) and pups stay? How are they with returning correspondence? Do they return calls or emails in a respectable time frame? Are they willing to answer questions? Do they skit around questions or are they full of correct information. (Be sure to ask one or two questions that you know the answers to, but aren't obviously too simple.)

Hopefully that's some helpful advice. I know you want to do the right thing, even if hubby doesn't. Therefore even going about the breeding issue the right way is the better route if it must be done. Who knows... maybe you can show him how much goes in to RESPONSIBLE breeding and maybe he'll see the light.

[Ginger's Mom]

Please do not take this the wrong way. It may sound blunt, but it isn't meant to be mean. To answer your question about how you can make sure they are not a backyard breeder, unfortunately the answer is you cannot. A reputable breeder would not look in the papers or for any dog in the neighborhood to breed with their titled dog. They will already have contacts in the world of dogs and know what traits they want in the dog (either physical or temperament wise) that they are going to breed with their bitch. I am not saying that Oreo is not a wonderful dog, nor that you do not deserve a way to make some extra money. I am just saying putting more poorly bred dogs on the street is not the way to do it. I am sorry, and I will add you to my prayer list for both better health and financial security.

[Scooter's Mom]

you know it will be better for both of you if he is just fixed. :) if you want another dog, adopt one from a shelter or rescue. :) there's too many homeless dogs in this world already waiting for their forever homes and we don't need anymore. :(

I personally am against it and want to have him neutered. However, if my husband IS going to do it, I'd like to be informed of the correct questions to ask.

[Romance]

i know this is long but its a good read and 100% true

SO YOU WANT A LITTER OF PUPPIES?
WHY???
"To make a lot of money." Do you realize the expense involved in such items as advertising, vet bills, stud fee, food, etc., to name a few?
"Because it would be good for the children to watch the birth and play with the puppies as they grow up." Actually, the "gory" parts of the whelping repulse most kids, who are all too anxious to just skip the viewing of the miracle of birth you have planned for them to see. And a litter growing up is too rowdy for most kids who are usually totally disinterested or absolutely terrified of the leaping creatures with the sharp nails and teeth. If you want the kids to see a puppy grow up, it's usually better to buy one.
"Because we love Fido and we want one just like her." The chances of getting one "just like her" are slim indeed.
"Because everyone who comes to the house and sees Fido wants a puppy when she has a litter." Just wait until your litter of 12 is ready to go to their homes and watch all those people back out with excuses like...."The kids aren't old enough."...."The kids are too old now to be bothered with caring for a dog."......"We are going to have a baby."...."The rug is too new."...."The house is too small."...."We'll be moving in 3 months."....."Grandma doesn't like dogs."...."Our old dog hasn't died yet."....."It might not get along with the cat.".....and the list goes on and on!
"Because we really love little puppies." You'd better be sure you love them. You can't fully imagine how much is involved, such as the mess a litter makes. Can you put up with the cleaning that is constantly needed in caring for the litter? There is no way to explain how tired you get of scrubbing up after the puppies, their whelping box, the yard, kennel, or wherever they are kept. They dump their food and water the minute you put it down, step in it, and drag it through whatever else may be in the puppy box, and with 6 or 8 or 12 puppies, there's always something else to be cleaned up too!
Do you understand the RESPONSIBILITY you will have with a litter? It's not just Fido having the litter and caring for it until they are ready to go. Most of it is up to you and you're tied to the litter like any new mother, only you can't take the litter with you to your in-laws for the weekend, or anyplace else for that matter, so you'd better be content to spend all too long, because you have to be there to feed the puppies four times a day.
Now that you have some idea of what is involved other than playing with those cute, cuddly puppies and are still determined to breed, here's something else that should be considered.
Is your bitch of QUALITY to breed? Do you know her faults as well as her virtues? Does she meet with the standard of the breed? Is she in good health? Has she been tested free of the genetic defects associated with the breed? Do you have customers so you won't have to sell the puppies at a price below market value or take them to a shelter?
If you can answer "yes" to the above and haven't lost the determination to try your hand at raising a litter, then read on...
Get an opinion of your bitch from a few reputable breeders. Find out what they think are her faults and her virtues.
Learn about any problems that exist in your breed such as hip dysplasia, eye disorders, etc. Study the breed standard yourself so that you are familiar with it when looking at and evaluating possible stud dogs. Get several reputable breeder's opinions of a stud dog who will enhance your bitch. Go to see as many of the stud dogs and their offspring as you can.
After you have decided on a stud dog, take your bitch to the vet and have all necessary health clearances done ($$$$). She should have a general health check-up and the vet will let you know if any vitamin supplements are necessary. This exam should include: a worm check (take along a stool sample) , a heartworm check, brucellosis test, updating of vaccinations, blood panel. Don't forget, all this is going to cost money, but it's necessary, part of planning for a healthy litter.
Now while you wait for her to come into season, read all you can on your particular breed, breeding, whelping, and rearing puppies.
Start saving all your newspapers and have your friends do the same (remember what we told you about clean-up?) You'll need all the newspaper you can get your hands on.
Have a whelping box built or, if you are handy, build one yourself. More $$$$.
When the bitch comes in season, contact the stud dog owner with whom you have previously made arrangements regarding the breeding. You will be advised on when to bring your bitch. Plan to pay the stud fee at the time of breeding ($$$). There may also be a boarding charge if your bitch is to stay with the stud dog's owner ($$$). Be sure you understand in advance what the payment of the stud fee is guaranteeing. The suitable stud for your bitch may be some distance away involving additional traveling expense ($$$). Getting your bitch bred isn't always as easy as you might imagine and may require repeated trips to the stud dog.
After your bitch is bred you have about 63 more days to do more reading and thinking, and laced with the good thoughts about the precious darlings will be some horrible thoughts about what can go wrong and how much it will cost you, both financially and emotionally.
We hate to keep dwelling on this but things DO go wrong occasionally and you should be prepared in case it happens to you.
(1) What if your bitch has problems and requires a Cesarean section or other extensive vet services ($$$)?
(2) What if the puppies die?
(3) What if she is not in whelp or has a miscarriage?
(4) What are you going to do with 10 six month old puppies that you can't sell, give away, or have the heart to put to sleep? Do you have adequate facilities?
(5) What if your bitch can't or won't nurse the puppies? Are you prepared to feed them every two hours for the next three weeks?
(6) And worst of all, what if Fido dies while whelping or afterwards? Will it have been worth it?
The days pass, and Fido whelps her puppies without any problems, but you still have to take her to the vet to be checked over within 24 hours of delivery. She will probably get injections to prevent infections ($$$). Lucky for you, Fido whelped 10 healthy puppies.
They are almost 6 weeks old now and in two weeks it will be time to sell them. First they will all have to make a trip to the vet. Their check-up will include shots and a worm check with medication if necessary (10 x $$$).
Now that you know they are healthy and ready to go, you'll want a breeder to see just how gorgeous they are and how great you did on your first try. Of course, you think they are all show quality and worth show prices. But again be prepared because you might be told the following:
(1) The best male has only one testicle.
(2) The next best male toes out badly (but has both testicles.)
(3) The really pretty bitch has a bad bite.
(4) The smaller bitch has a proper bite but her topline is bad.
(5) The bitch with the prettiest head is cowhocked.
(6) There are four who are average, nothing really wrong but nothing outstanding either.
There is one who is show quality. The "show quality" one is the one you were going to keep just as a pet because the kids liked it best (another mouth to feed $$$) and you're feeling down at the breeder's opinion of your litter. But you're told to cheer up, one outstanding puppy is better than a lot of people get out of a litter and you should consider this a successful breeding, Some consolation when you were going to sell them all as show puppies!
Now you have your litter graded and priced accordingly and you are ready to sell them. By this time, are you knowledgeable enough about your breed to be the expert every buyer assumes you are? Are you prepared to answer questions on training, housebreaking, feeding, grooming, etc.? Are you prepared to answer these questions not only at the time of purchase, but months later or when someone calls at midnight because the dog isn't eating right? Can you direct buyers to obedience classes, breed handling classes, help them get into showing, recommend a vet, etc.? Remember, you are now the breeder and the responsibility doesn't end when a puppy is carried out the door. Do you have a pedigree ready to go with each puppy, as well as the registration forms? Are you prepared to advertise extensively ($$$) if needed?
If you have a good bitch and have bred to a stud dog owned by an interested breeder, they may send referrals to you, but don't depend on others to sell your puppies, and advertising expenses can really add up. Don't expect the buyers to flock to your door the day the puppies are ready to go. It may take weeks, or even months, before they are all sold. This results in lots of food costs and more trips to the vet ($$$).
We hope that if you breed your bitch you do it the right way and only for the right reasons and put lots of time, thought, and love into your decision.
THERE ARE TOO MANY UNWANTED PUPPIES PUT TO DEATH EACH YEAR DUE TO IRRESPONSIBLE AND IGNORANT BREEDING. DON'T LET ANY OF YOUR PUPPIES END UP THIS WAY.


and lastly As a breeder you are trying to improve the breed, ask yourself what exactly are you hoping to achieve in your breeding and how will it help or improve the breed?

[Karen]

Has Oreo ever been shown? Have his hips and eyes been certified? What breed it he? If he is a Shih Tzu, have any of his siblings or their puppies come down with Renal Dysplasia? Testing and certification costs money, which may not even be offset by the "stud fee."

[Romance]

I forgot to add about "stud services"
Me as a breeder will NOT (no way no how) breed to a male that isn't at the very least titled, does not have either OFA(good or better) or OVC certification on both hips and elbows, does not have his eyes,heart, and thyroid tested EVERY year and certified. and lastly that has not been tested for STDs
stud fees on a health tested and titled dog are only on average $500.00 and if it doesn't take you have to re service for free. if pups don't survive the first week you have to re service for free.
If the bitch hasn't had her BC/VC your dog could contract a life threatening STD or become sterile.
lots of things to consider.

[cyber-sibes]

And, with all of my hospital bills... some $$ would definately be welcome.It sounds to me like you have a few health issues yourself - perfect excuse to insist you are not up for this.

If he persists...tell him he will have to attend to all the necessary testing, advertising, locating an acceptable female, contracting with her owners, making stud service arrangements (which may mean having a female guest in your home for days/weeks till the deed is done right) & any follow ups on concerns/complaints. Most men generally feel all these details are "women's work", and if you don't want to do this, say so & stick to your guns. He's just clueless how much work this entails.

BYBs aside, I think many pet owners don't mean any harm, they just want a litter of pups from their dog because it's such a cute/sweet/wonderful dog. Some want to make a few bucks to cover the expenses of their own dog, & there is always the myth that "a litter of pups betters a dog's temperment." MYTH is the keyword here. Result: way too many poorly bred puppies no one really wants after they aren't so cute anymore. Take him to the shelter (a few months after Christmas is an ideal time) to see all the unwanted puppies that get dumped. What?...He wouldn't like to adopt a few? "They're wonderful dogs...." , so thought the nice people who bred irresponsibly.

[mike001]

$$$$ sounds like a very pitiful excuse to breed your dog. We already have enough people doing that, all it does is fill the shelters, unless they die of starvation in a bush somewhere. Please try to make your hubby that it would be a grave mistake to do this.
Again, if your dog is not titled , hasn't been proven to be breedworthy, etc. then please reconsider. We surely have enough byb.
I browse another rather informal forum where they encourage mixed breedings, breeding of a purebred with no proven background, no breedworthiness testing, etc and I fing it disgusting to say the least. But the forum consists mainly of byb who just love their doggies to death and think they are fabulous enough to breed....in my opinion this is doing a great diservice to the dog owners in general.
If your dog is not proven, does not meet the standard, is not titled or tested then do not breed.

[buttercup132]

Your breeding for money = byb
Your dog isn't standard to the breed = byb
If you are trying to do it the right way then you will be spending more money then you make which by the sounds of it you can't afford.
Why can't you just say no to him?

[Giselle]

Don't breed him. Stand up for your dog and for the good of dogdom and neuter him ASAP.

If your hubby wants to make some extra cash, look elsewhere. Don't manipulate animals for money. Look into dog walking. Dog sitting. Find a simple part time job that he can fulfill in his free time.

Dogs are not money making machines. You should *NEVER* breed for the sake of money.

[Scooter's Mom]

Why can't you just say no to him?

I can, but you should try being married and have two opinions that clash sometimes before you jump to conclusions about how I can't say no. Marriage isn't about saying "YES and NO" all the time. Sometimes compromises have to be made, and sometimes to make a statement, you have to become more educated so that your reasons make more sense in a discussion.

However, I thought I might find some information FIRST, so that I could go into the discussion with good information other than just me saying "I don't think it's a good idea." So, please forgive me for asking a few questions in order to obtain a little more info. before I took my discussion back to my hubby. I'm one of the people out there that actually likes to have as much information at hand before I get started on a discussion with someone.

Crystal

[Giselle]

I know these aren't the answers you want to hear, but your initial question was asking us how to ensure that you don't become or breed to a BYB. It wasn't asking for information to help persuade your husband not to breed.

Firstly, there is a reason why Oreo is not neutered. If you got him from a good breeder, there would've been a part in the contract stating that the dog sold to you was either show or pet quality. If show quality, the dog could be kept intact. If not, you're bound by contract to neuter him. There are three essential scenarios: 1) He is pet quality and you need to neuter him as you are breaking a stipulation of the contract 2) He is show quality and you have not invested time in showing/proving him worthy to breed 3) He did not come from a reputable breeder and he does not have a contract stating any of this.

Numbers 1 and 3 give you enough argument to neuter Oreo. Number 2 is a workable scenario, but that involves you entering shows and proving Oreo in the conformation ring. This is an expensive and time consuming route - exactly the opposite of what your husband wants.

Now print this out and explain to your hubby why Oreo needs to be neutered ASAP.

[Scooter's Mom]

1) He is pet quality and you need to neuter him as you are breaking a stipulation of the contract 2) He is show quality and you have not invested time in showing/proving him worthy to breed 3) He did not come from a reputable breeder and he does not have a contract stating any of this.

Numbers 1 and 3 give you enough argument to neuter Oreo. Number 2 is a workable scenario, but that involves you entering shows and proving Oreo in the conformation ring. This is an expensive and time consuming route - exactly the opposite of what your husband wants.



The people we got Oreo from paid a fortune for him when they lived in California.
Then, when they moved here they decided a dog was too much work and let their 8 year old son be in charge of Oreo's care. Oreo was rarely fed, used to be picked on and was left outside in the Arizona heat for a year and a half.

I have no idea what their original contract was with the breeder they purchased him from.

Any more questions, please PM me. I've stated already that I personally was not for breeding him. I just wanted a little information to use in my defense when I told my hubby it was not a good plan.

Thanks,

[Karen]

I hope we were able to provide you with enough reasons to use to convince your husband. Let us know how it goes! And thank you, by the way, for rescuing Oreo from a bad situation.

[Scooter's Mom]

Thank you Karen.

I am sure that with the information I have received - it will be more than enough to convince my husband that breeding is a bad idea.

[Flatcoatluver]

Glad to here that you might be able to convince the hubby not to.

Breeding responsibly will cost you a lot of money. There are way to many unhealthy shih tzu's out there, you never no if your adding to that problem without hips, eyes, heart, and other testing that will cost you quite enough. Why not neuter him, it may save you a lot of money in the long run, he could end up getting a testiculer cancer if not neutered.

[Danegirl2208]

Here is an excellent article I found online.. please let your hubby check it out:

"Allowing a dog to sire a litter is a big decision & needs a lot of thought about the responsibilities involved & the amount of knowledge needed.

The responsible owner of a potential stud dog must have in depth knowledge on a range of subjects including:

The owner must know what hereditary problems exist in the breed & which lines have produced problems in the past to be able to make an educated decision about whether their dog should be used at all & if so, which bitches he would suit. It is never just a case of letting any bitch mate any dog - this could lead to disaster!

The Bitch's Cycle. The stud dog owner must be able to advise novice bitch owners when to bring their bitch for mating as all bitches differ. The stud dog owner must know from just looking at a bitch whether she is receptive to mating or not - introducing a stud dog to a bitch who is not ready for mating could lead to the dog being injured as bitches may be aggressive to males if they are not ready. The stud dog owner must also be prepared to board an in season bitch for a few days or longer if she arrives before she is receptive to mating.

Mating Techniques. Contrary to popular belief, not all male dogs know instinctively what to do with an in season bitch - many need careful tutoring & the stud dog owner must know how to do this & how to assist a dog to achieve a successful mating. Some matings can be technically difficult for example if the dog & bitch vary in size too much or if the bitch is reluctant to stand still to be mated. Again, the stud dog owner needs to know what to do to achieve a good result without injury or distress being caused to either party.

Managing the Stud Dog. Once a dog is used at stud, it is not unusual for his personality to alter to some extent. Some have a tendency to mark their territory indoors (cocking legs on furniture etc) and may be more likely to wander off the lead in search of in season bitches. Once a dog has been allowed to mate one bitch, they will generally want others! Some may also become more aggressive to other male dogs (due to sexual competitiveness). The potential stud dog owner needs to decide whether they can cope with these possible behavioural changes.

Responsibility for Puppies. Once a dog has been used at stud, the owner cannot just take the money & forget about it. The stud dog owner must be prepared to give advice on rearing puppies to the bitch owner (if a first time breeder) & must also take responsibility for any hereditary defects produced by their dog. They are also morally responsible for helping with the rehoming of any of their dog's offspring should the need arise at any time. This responsibility also means the stud dog owner must vet bitch owners that contact them to ensure that the breeder is reputable (not a puppy farmer for instance!) & that the bitch is old enough to be mated (or not too old) & has passed all the recommended health tests (annual eye tests for example).

If after reading this, you feel you can undertake the responsibilities of offering your dog at stud, then you need to get him seen by reputable breeders. This means showing him (if a show-type dog) or competing at Field Trials / Working Trials (if a Working dog) If other breeders can see that he is an excellent example of the breed, then they may ask to use him at stud, but the key word is "may" - there are already a large number of experienced stud dogs in the country for the reputable breeder to choose from. It goes without saying that your dog should also have had the recommended health screening tests which means as an absolute minimum, he should be eye-tested annually and hip scored. There may be other health issues relating to your breed, so check with your breed club and carry out any further health checks that they recommend.

As you can see, owning a stud dog is not for the fainthearted - it's not an easy way to make some extra cash & is never just a case of putting together any dog with any bitch & leaving them to get on with it - doing this could cause one or both parties to be injured and could also result in pups with health or temperament problems. If you would like to offer your dog at stud simply because you would like another puppy with his personality & looks, then it would be easier to buy another puppy from your dog's breeder!"

[cyber-sibes]

Good article, Danegirl, thanks for posting it.

[anna_66]

IF your husband decides to breed, I would suggest you talk to NicoleLJ as she has just had a litter of puppies and would be able to tell you what and all has to be done.

Good luck.

[IRescue452]

Do you know the original breeder even? It is possible the contract stated that the first owners were not to resell him without their permission. Trying to find a breeder to use him for stud would open a whole new can of worms. No reputable breeder will want to touch this situation with a ten foot pole. Plus you aren't gonna make a cent enough to bother with once everything is done properly. Breeding does not make money.

[Romance]

nichole_j doesn't have any stud dogs of her own. I however have 2 on site along with a litter of 9 and 3 females. prolly better if you talk in pm with an actual kennel. This came out much harder than intended.
was just given instruction on how to get the edit to work. sorry for lag in the editing process.
what i meant was its prolly a better idea to talk with someone who actualy has stud dog of their own.

[mike001]

Dane girl and Romance----you've posted excellent readings about breeding dogs. I'm sure a lot of people will think twicwe before taking this route with their dogs.
I agree about speaking to people who own a stud, I know quite a few breeders who own them along with the dams and it's not as easy as a few $$$$. And you have to be responsible enough to say no to a defective dam. Don't forget the dam imprints her litter, the stud has very little to do except "his job".

[NicoleLJ]

IF your husband decides to breed, I would suggest you talk to NicoleLJ as she has just had a litter of puppies and would be able to tell you what and all has to be done.

Good luck.


Thanks so much Anna for the vote of confidence.

I have never owned a stud dog so would not know how to direct any suggestions. Though hopefully in the long run we hope Ajax will pan out to be an excellent example of his breed and hence become a stud dog. But along the way I am learning what needs and should be done to prove his breed worthiness. I have a mentor who will help me with this who is very experienced in the breed.

So my big suggestion is that if someone is really serious about breeding they need to get a mentor in their breed to help guide them in the process. This makes things so much easier for everyone. Whether you have a female or a male having a mentor when you first start out is extremely important.

Hope that helps.
Nicole & Sheena & Puppies