110 year sentence (or 10 for good behavior)

[crow_noir]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070805/ap_on_re_us/army_rape_slaying

Reading this story has almost made me physically ill. I know this stuff goes on, but reading about it hurts a LOT.

I'm so glad charges (and worse) are being brought against these... humans.

Because of the graphic nature I made this "invisible" Click and scroll to highlight the text or click on reply to read this.


news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070805/ap_on_re_us/army_rape_slaying

Soldier gets 110 years in rape-slay case

By RYAN LENZ, Associated Press Writer 37 minutes ago

FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. - A soldier convicted of rape and murder in an attack on an Iraqi teenager and her family was sentenced Saturday to 110 years in prison, with the possibility of parole after 10 years.

The sentence was part of a plea agreement attorneys for Pfc. Jesse Spielman had made with prosecutors that set the number of years he could serve in prison, regardless of the jury's recommendation.

The jury had recommended life with parole, a sentence under which he would have to wait longer for the possibility of freedom.

Spielman was convicted late Friday of rape, conspiracy to commit rape, housebreaking with intent to rape and four counts of felony murder.

Military prosecutors did not say Spielman took part in the rape or murders but alleged that he went to the house knowing what the others intended to do and served as a lookout.

In closing arguments, the military prosecutor, Maj. William Fischbach, said Spielman played a "bit part" but stressed he shared responsibility.

Spielman took the stand to petition jurors for leniency before he was sentenced.

"I don't really blame my chain of command. I don't really blame anybody," he said quietly. "I could have stopped it. I take responsibility for my actions."

Spielman, 23, of Chambersburg, Pa., received the longest sentence of four soldiers who have been convicted. Three other soldiers pleaded guilty under agreements with prosecutors for their roles in the assault and were given sentences ranging from five to 100 years.

Spielman's grandmother, Nancy Hess, collapsed outside the courtroom after the verdict was read; Fischbach ran to her side and called 911. Soldiers in Spielman's unit fanned the woman with napkins.

Spielman's sister, Paige Gerlach, screamed: "I hate the government. You people put him (in Iraq) and now, this happened."

Defense attorneys declined to comment after the sentencing hearing.

Spielman had pleaded guilty on Monday to lesser charges of conspiracy to obstructing justice, arson, wrongfully touching a corpse and drinking. The 110-year sentence encompasses those crimes, too.

The case stemmed from the March 12, 2006, rape and slaying of Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, 14, and the killings of her parents and sister. The attack took place in Mahmoudiya, about 20 miles south of Baghdad.

Prosecutors rested their case Thursday amid struggles to overcome a fellow soldier's recanting of a story that Spielman acted as a lookout.

Spc. James Barker said in earlier testimony that he had allowed investigators to draft sworn statements for him that implicated Spielman.

Barker testified Wednesday that several portions of the document were untrue, including references to Spielman's role in the conspiracy to attack the family and his knowledge of plans to rape the girl.

But Sgt. Paul E. Cortez testified that Spielman stood guard. Cortez said Spielman was within a few feet of the others as they held down the screaming girl and did nothing to stop them.

Barker, Cortez and another soldier, Pfc. Bryan L. Howard, pleaded guilty for their roles.

Steven D. Green, who was discharged from the Army before being charged, faces a possible death sentence when he is tried in federal court in Kentucky. He has pleaded not guilty to charges that include murder and sexual assault.

Barker and Cortez gave investigators conflicting statements about whether Spielman knew of the plan to rape the girl and whether he was present when they discussed it over whiskey and gin, according to testimony.

During their courts-martial, Barker and Cortez testified they took turns raping the girl while Green shot and killed her mother, father and younger sister. Green shot the girl in the head after raping her, they said.

The girl's body was set on fire with kerosene to destroy the evidence, according to previous testimony.

Copyright © 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

[jackie]

That is shameful. I don't care if he only had a "bit part", I hope he never sees freedom again.

And the nerve of his sister blaming the government sending him there.

[Alysser]

Sickening. :mad:

This statement irks me:
Spielman's sister, Paige Gerlach, screamed: "I hate the government. You people put him (in Iraq) and now, this happened."

-------------------

I'm sure he had to join the army first. I think before joining he very well knew he could go to war at anytime. And now WHAT happened?? Your brother was being a sickening bastard? Those are his OWN action's not the governments. :rolleyes:

By no means do I "love" this government myself either but that statement just bothers me so much.

[lizbud]

Nowhere does it say 5 yrs for good behavior.Where did you get that?

[Jessika]

Yeah I didn't see "5 years for good behavior", it just said other soldiers were given sentences ranging from 5 - 100 years, but he got the longest.

His sister's comment is what ticks me off the most. Last I checked, he had to WILLINGLY join the army (and there hasn't been a draft since... anybody? anybody? Vietnam...), and seeing his age, probably knew his chance of going to Iraq was very high when he signed up. So how is the government to blame for that? And furthermore, how is the government to blame for him raping and killing innocent people?! He made those choices!

[IRescue452]

Unfortunately after many many many stories like this I don't like any soldiers at all. I hate having to watch on the news when they have welcome back parties for soldiers. Since there is no draft, I naturally assume people who willing take part in the army can be classed together. I know not everybody is the same, but its going to take a lot to get me to trust anybody who supports soldiers or was one for this war.

[Lady's Human]

As a retired soldier, thank you for your support.

[Lady's Human]

Scum?

The military found out about the crime, tried the perps, convicted and sentenced them.

Scum?

We have helped in disasters globally.

Scum?

We did the majority of the work in the immediate post Katrina effort.

Scum?


WE DEFEND YOU! :mad:

[Lady's Human]

There are bad apples in EVERY profession on the face of the earth. Doctors, Lawyers, musicians, artists, police, firemen, ad infinitum.

The US military is a cross section of society. As such the occasional bad apple gets through the screening, training and eval.

Unlike most militaries on the face of the earth, the US military prosecutes our bad apples and we get rid of them.

DO NOT! cast aspersions on the entire military because of the actions of one or two idiots. :mad:

[jackie]

There are bad apples in EVERY profession on the face of the earth. Doctors, Lawyers, musicians, artists, police, firemen, ad infinitum.

The US military is a cross section of society. As such the occasional bad apple gets through the screening, training and eval.

Unlike most militaries on the face of the earth, the US military prosecutes our bad apples and we get rid of them.

DO NOT! cast aspersions on the entire military because of the actions of one or two idiots. :mad:

Thank you!

IRescue, I am by no means supportive of the war in Iraq, or any recent conflict which America has entered, but I find your comments offensive. Not every person who joins the army goes into it thinking "yeehaw, I am gonna shoot me some Ay-rab ass" and to even assume that is close minded.

[Jessika]

Two of my best friends in the entire world are in the military. One is currently active in Iraq.

Both my sister-in-law and her husband are in the coast guard.

My father-in-law is a retired Green Beret.

None of them are "low-life scum" as you seem to believe.

NONE of them would EVER do the things the few idiots that this article talks about did.

Never ever make assumptions based off of one or two idiots.

I'm not going to lie..... what you said actually offends me and, in a way, hurt me that you would think such wonderful people such as my friends and family would be classified as "low-life scum" with idiots such as the guys in the article.

But, I'm sorry our opinions differ.

[Cinder & Smoke]

:eek:




Scum?
We have helped in disasters globally.
We did the majority of the work in the immediate post Katrina effort.
Scum?
WE DEFEND YOU! :mad:

:rolleyes:

Rest easy, Sarge ~~~ Job WELL Done! ;)

And you Military Types have earned the Nation's Gratitude!! :)

IGNORE IR452 ... or as my Dad said: "Consider the Source!"
452's "opinion" is NOT shared by many.

[IRescue452]

I will always have trouble trusting this category of people. At least I admit its wrong to make blanket assumptions. Everybody has different experiences in life that shape their attitudes towards people and even inanimate objects. You've got good experiences with soldiers and have good thoughts about the American way of "defending" its people from real or imagined threats- great. I've had more bad experiences than good with these people and their practices- great also. This means we are a balanced social group.

[Jessika]

I will always have trouble trusting this category of people. At least I admit its wrong to make blanket assumptions. Everybody has different experiences in life that shape their attitudes towards people and even inanimate objects. You've got good experiences with soldiers and have good thoughts about the American way of "defending" its people from real or imagined threats- great. I've had more bad experiences than good with these people and their practices- great also. This means we are a balanced social group.
So you're saying, based on my experiences, I can say that all african-americans are sucking our nation dry and are no-good, lazy scumbags?

OF COURSE I know that isn't true!! But just because I've had a few experiences with people like that, it still gives me NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to categorize them all together!

I KNOW there are "bad apples" in the military, clearly! But we need to realize that not everyone is like that! And to not even have an open mind about it... well, its racist without being racist. That's the only term I can think of off the top of my head.

You are entitled to your opinion, and as I said earlier, I'm sorry ours' differ. But in this rare case this is one opinion I just can't respect.

[Lady's Human]

What "category" of people????????

There is no "normal" soldier.

There is no "normal" Marine

There in no "normal" airman

there is no "normal" sailor

there is no "normal" coastie

You offend the hell out of me.

Take your 60's hippie crap elsewhere.

[K9soul]

What a hateful statement that is just as bad as a racist statement in my eyes. As much as people have their disagreements here and sometimes things get very heated, I never expected to see something like that and I find it very sad. :(

[IRescue452]

Like I said, different experiences make the world go round. If you met a person who had been forced into slavery and therefore had a hard time trusting everybody of the group who had enslaved them, would you say they were racist? Of course they are making generalizations as well. In the same time, you are making generalizations about me. A few of you used words which cover me in a group of people known as hippies. Of course if you knew me you'd find that I'm quite the conservative. Hippies aren't all clones of each other as well.

[Cinder & Smoke]

What a hateful statement ...

... something like that ... :(

Hey K9soul ...

Maybe you stick a noun or a possessive in there -
to give us some idea of WHAT (or whom) you're talking about.

:confused:

[K9soul]

Hey K9soul ...

Maybe you stick a noun or a possessive in there -
to give us some idea of WHAT (or whom) you're talking about.

:confused:

Sorry, I had meant to quote the post and thought I had. Now the post is edited so it doesn't have the same meaning. I was referring to the post talking about military personnel being "low-life scum."

[lizbud]

What "category" of people????????

There is no "normal" soldier.

There is no "normal" Marine

There in no "normal" airman

there is no "normal" sailor

there is no "normal" coastie

You offend the hell out of me.

Take your 60's hippie crap elsewhere.




Please just take it easy LH. Consider the source of the comment. Probably
a very young person who has a lot to learn in their lifetime. Opinions can
change through the experiences of a whole lifetime.

p.s Just noticed the original post has been edited.

[CathyBogart]

Throwing a temper tantrum is certain to change people's minds. :rolleyes:

[Lady's Human]

I get called scum in a post and I'm supposed to remain calm?

Sorry, that will never happen.

[CathyBogart]

Rather than acting like a five year old in public you could have taken it to PMs...

[K9soul]

Rather than acting like a five year old in public you could have taken it to PMs...

Why not tell him that in a PM then? I don't understand when people start in with how people should PM but don't use it themselves. Being publicly condescending is no better either in my opinion.

[Cinder & Smoke]

I get called scum in a post and I'm supposed to remain calm?


GOSH!

I thought you WERE pretty calm!!

;)

[caseysmom]

Gosh that is just so wrong and disrespectful. I am against the war but I still thank god for all the brave men and women who are in the military. Do you seriously think we would be safe without them?

[Karen]

There are thousands and thousands of people currently serving in the military. Each and every one has made that personal decision to serve our country for his or her own reason. I am sorry you have had bad experiences with "soldires," but stop and think before condemning an entire group of human beings. As others have said, any large group of people - whether you choose to group them by state, city, profession, hair color - each will have good and bad people within it.

What is true of any group is that the "bad people" are the ones who make the news. Let's take teachers, for example. Do you see news stories about the teachers who go to work, day after day, year after year, and work hard to teach first grade, teaching each new group of students the fundamentals that wills erve them the rest of their lives, whether it be reading, learning basic math and colors, or how to get along with others? No, of course not. But let one teacher harm a student, and it makes national news. Same for any demographic. The law-abiding, hard-working people never get press time. Same for soldiers. Same for clergy. Same for police officers - you name it.

[wombat2u2004]

I get called scum in a post and I'm supposed to remain calm?

Sorry, that will never happen.

Take it easy LH, she is obviously one of those people who don't know who has given her the right to free speech and to be able to burn the flag.
There is a country full of them, and there always will be.
Ingrates is the word that is applicable to them.
Wom

[Catty1]

When I read about the sentencing on the news here, I read about this man being eligible for parole in 10 years because of a plea bargain. Of course, that involves a hearing in ten years, and he will not automatically be free.

I understand the last man to be sentenced is in Kentucky. Not sure which soldiers of the 4 charged were supposed to 'benefit' from the plea bargain.

Heck - I was going through old mail today; I had two letters from years ago, both replies from our Federal Government, and one signed by our prime minister at the time.

I didn't get in any trouble for writing those letters - and I know the freedom I have to do that came at a very very high cost.

I have two uncles who made sure of the freedom. They came home...but for our military folks, the war is never really over.

I am totally humbled...no amount of gratitude is sufficient.

[lady_zana]

Take it easy LH, she is obviously one of those people who don't know who has given her the right to free speech and to be able to burn the flag.
There is a country full of them, and there always will be.
Ingrates is the word that is applicable to them.
Wom

Of all the posts on this board, this is the most offensive one...IMO.

You don't know her; don't call her an ingrate.

Who gave her the right to free speech and the ability to burn the flag? The Patriots.....who went to war over having to pay extra taxes. France had a revolution because the people were starving. England had a revolution because their people were starving and out of work. America had a revolution so they wouldn't have to be taxed.

The military doesn't give the right free speech and they aren't the only ones who protect it. The people who USE it also protect it....and she's using to it to voice her opinions and she has this right like everyone else on this board.

"America - love it or leave it." - One of the most Un-American ideas in my opinion. It should be "America - love it or work to change it." We have that right and are very special for it.

Being anti-military might be offending to you. It's her right to be anti-military like it is mine. It's your right to join the military if you want. However, know it is not ONLY military who defends our rights. The peacemakers do as well.

[crow_noir]

Opps! *Blushing and trying to hide* I only read through the article once and thought it was five... turns out it was 10.

" A soldier convicted of rape and murder in an attack on an Iraqi teenager and her family was sentenced Saturday to 110 years in prison, with the possibility of parole after 10 years. "


Nowhere does it say 5 yrs for good behavior.Where did you get that?

[Lady's Human]

One comment on the sentence......

His time will be in a military prison, where he will not have the rights of a normal prisoner.

The Parole Board he will face in 10 years IF he is allowed to go before it will not be a normal parole board, but a military parole board.

He has a snowball's chance in hades of ever being free again.

[wombat2u2004]

Rather than acting like a five year old in public you could have taken it to PMs...

No CB.....I for one find this conversation enlightening, if you don't, then don't clickity click !!!!!
And nobody is acting like a 5 year old.....this is not an issue for children, it is probably one of the biggest issues that face your country at the moment, so lets hear it all.
Wom

[cmayer31]

What this man, soldier or not, has done is inexcusably wrong and I truly hope he and those involved serve their full sentences.

That said I have lost two friends that I went to high school with; one in Iraq and the other in Afghanistan. I know a number of people that are serving in the armed forces, mostly in the Marines. I live in a military city and some of the comments made here are despicable. I'll make sure to salute the Marine pilots that fly over my work daily; I work alongside Marine corps air station, Miramar.

IRescue452, next time you make blanket statements about "these people", United States Armed Forces, remember that you include my grandparents, great uncles, my father, and my friends. Here's one of "these people's" memorials. Spc. Michael A. Diraimondo (http://www.brandonblog.homestead.com/michael-diraimondo-hero.html) . Mike was assigned to 571st Medical Company and lost his life in 2004 when his Medevac helicopter went down in Iraq. His mission was to save lives and he lost his serving his country. Take a good look at his picture and know that I consider him one of "these people", but to me "these people" are heroes, family, and friends.

Everyone has a right to their own opinions formed from their experiences, so I figured I would share mine. Did this thread hit a nerve? Oh yea! I hate that there are bad soldiers and bad people in general, but for every sick, cruel, misguided person there are thousands that are truly good and don't deserve to be lumped together under one broad term.

[wombat2u2004]

Of all the posts on this board, this is the most offensive one...IMO.

You don't know her; don't call her an ingrate.

Who gave her the right to free speech and the ability to burn the flag? The Patriots.....who went to war over having to pay extra taxes. France had a revolution because the people were starving. England had a revolution because their people were starving and out of work. America had a revolution so they wouldn't have to be taxed.

The military doesn't give the right free speech and they aren't the only ones who protect it. The people who USE it also protect it....and she's using to it to voice her opinions and she has this right like everyone else on this board.

"America - love it or leave it." - One of the most Un-American ideas in my opinion. It should be "America - love it or work to change it." We have that right and are very special for it.

Being anti-military might be offending to you. It's her right to be anti-military like it is mine. It's your right to join the military if you want. However, know it is not ONLY military who defends our rights. The peacemakers do as well.

A Lady Zana......how could I ingnore this post.
Ingrate = Ungrateful; an ungrateful person. (According to the Westminster dictionary). You think by calling people ingrates is offensive ???? Well, it seems then that the truth may hurt some. But why would someone be offended by being called ungrateful ????? And isn't that just what ID Rescue has indicated here ?????? She has posted her distaste for war and the military....ALL OF IT !!!!!!! How can she not see what the military has done for her in the past ???? And probably in the future ???? Is that not ungrateful ????? Even if it is her opinion ?????? And yours ????
Honey (please excuse the patronising, but I guess it is my right to say whatever I want to), I'm a Vietnam veteran, and I'll tell you exactly what offensive means.....it means being spat at, ridiculed, called a baby killer, and generally shunned by a certain section of society. But I'm not really that offended by what I experienced, simply because I CHOSE to do what I did, just like Lady's Human here did, professional soldiers, doing what WE believe is the right thing for our country. I really don't care what you believe is the right thing, as much as you don't care what I do. But I hold my peace, I don't go bashing anti war activists, in fact in all the time I have been on PT, I have probably never even mentioned war (except for on occasion with Lady's Human when we PM each other about our experiences).
But, you know, I don't really care what ID Rescue said....true....I've been there, and heard that, it just goes in one ear and out of the other for all that it matters to me. But what I do find I'm annoyed about is being told that my post is offensive !!!!! If one takes issue with being called ungrateful because of what they have said about those who ultimately are responsible for her rights and protection, then she deserves to feel offended about that.
And....for the record.....you mention US patriots, the French and English revolutions ????? Ummmmmmmmm.......they ALL actually formed militias, which is certainly akin to an army at the time.....if they never did that, they would have had buckleys chance of winning. So I stand by my statement, that soldiers have given people the right of free speech, and the right to burn the flag, and they try VERY hard to maintain those rights for you.....do not assume that they are just magically available to you....people have fought and died for that privilege you have.

""However, know it is not ONLY military who defends our rights. The peacemakers do as well.""

Really ???? And how long do you think that would be the case without a military ?????

Wom

[lady_zana]

I'm sorry if you are upset, Wom, that I called your post offensive but I feel it was and is.

The peacemakers do support our rights as well as the military. How long would it last without the military? For quite some time. Look at the good works of Martin Luther King, JR. He preached nonviolence and taught his followers not to respond to violence.

I mentioned the revolutions not because of their militias but to point out the reasons we went to war. People believe the American Revolution was fought for freedom such as freedom of speech and religious freedom. It wasn't. It was fought because they didn't want to pay extra taxes to Britain. Is that a good reason to go to war especially when they knew they were moving to a colony which was made to make money for Britain? Probably not. The militia was not fighting for free speech.

I'm sorry that you have been shunned and insulted by many in society. Believe me, I know how horrible that can be. I've seen my friends hurt, wounded, and made into outcasts - not because they were in the military but because they are gay. However, we still believe nonviolence is the best way and will continue to fight our cause through on terms

[sirrahbed]

WOW - both at reading about what these soldiers did and at the anti-soldier comments.

First off - where *I* am coming from....I was born into and grew up in - a military family. My dad served in WWII and in Korea. He retired after 27 years. My only sibling served for 25 years. I married into military, too. Hubby served in Vietnam and the Persian Gulf, then retired after 26 years. We have been civilians for ten years now. Of my three now grown children, one went through ROTC in highschool and through college on scholarship (now civilian) Our one daughter is married to military and her hubby served in Iraq. We still live in a military town near an AF base. So, I tend to be patriotic, supportive of the military, yet I am also a civilian who is concerned about the war.

What I wanted to comment on was the perception and observations of "military folks & soldiers".....

I have always felt that the military soldiers and families we have met and lived with throughout the years were intelligent, honorable, dependable and disciplined. I believe the ratio of scum among the military population is way less than average.


I am disgusted to read about this rape and murder - but do not feel the soldier will get off lightly. Probably worse. This is based on individuals that I have known about who committed any sort of crime and had to be tried in our military system. I have NEVER heard of any crime being minimized - we don't want low-life in our military! The military I know does not tolerate bad behavior.

As a whole, we are among the most committed, law-abiding and respectful people I have ever come in contact with. If new neighbors move to our area - I am happy to learn if they are military. Knowing that someone has served in the military is a plus to me. When I see young men and women while I am out shopping or whatever - they are most likely polite, clean and helpful. If my car breaks down, it is quite likely that it will be someone military who stops to help me. Hubby now teaches at the local highschool and his military dependent students tend to be the most educated and behaved of the bunch. Their parents respond if they are called!

Any scum to the civilian world is scum to those within the military as well.

What sort of experiences have you all had that make you see military as scum???

[Sirrahsim]

WOW - both at reading about what these soldiers did and at the anti-soldier comments.

First off - where *I* am coming from....I was born into and grew up in - a military family. My dad served in WWII and in Korea. He retired after 27 years. My only sibling served for 25 years. I married into military, too. Hubby served in Vietnam and the Persian Gulf, then retired after 26 years. We have been civilians for ten years now. Of my three now grown children, one went through ROTC in highschool and through college on scholarship (now civilian) Our one daughter is married to military and her hubby served in Iraq. We still live in a military town near an AF base. So, I tend to be patriotic, supportive of the military, yet I am also a civilian who is concerned about the war.

What I wanted to comment on was the perception and observations of "military folks & soldiers".....

I have always felt that the military soldiers and families we have met and lived with throughout the years were intelligent, honorable, dependable and disciplined. I believe the ratio of scum among the military population is way less than average.

I am disgusted to read about this rape and murder - but do not feel the soldier will get off lightly. Probably worse. This is based on individuals that I have known about who committed any sort of crime and had to be tried in our military system. I have NEVER heard of any crime being minimized - we don't want low-life in our military! The military I know does not tolerate bad behavior.

As a whole, we are among the most committed, law-abiding and respectful people I have ever come in contact with. If new neighbors move to our area - I am happy to learn if they are military. Knowing that someone has served in the military is a plus to me. When I see young men and women while I am out shopping or whatever - they are most likely polite, clean and helpful. If my car breaks down, it is quite likely that it will be someone military who stops to help me. Hubby now teaches at the local highschool and his miltary dependent studenst tend to be the most educated and behaved of the bunch. Their parents respond if they are called!

Any scum to the civilian world is scum to those within the military as well.

What sort of experiences have y'all had that make you see military as scum???

I couldn't have said it better!!

[Alysser]

Unfortunately after many many many stories like this I don't like any soldiers at all. I hate having to watch on the news when they have welcome back parties for soldiers. Since there is no draft, I naturally assume people who willing take part in the army can be classed together. I know not everybody is the same, but its going to take a lot to get me to trust anybody who supports soldiers or was one for this war.

--------

Wow, that's disgusting. I can only imagine what you do when you see a story about a soldier dying. My brother was in this war. You just take one bad apple from the group and assume all are the same? I really feel bad for you, that you don't trust soldiers. I for one, know my brother is not untrustworthy and does not go around raping and murdering people. Surley, he is immature at times, but who isn't? If you can't respect soldiers who defend your country, then WHO do you respect?

I can honestly say I am very offended by that comment. And to anyone else who was I'm sorry.

[sirrahbed]

Has this thread been heavily edited or some posts deleted? ?? The comments that made me see :mad: yesterday seem to have disappeared?? :confused:

well, just as well I guess.

[critter crazy]

Unfortunately after many many many stories like this I don't like any soldiers at all. I hate having to watch on the news when they have welcome back parties for soldiers. Since there is no draft, I naturally assume people who willing take part in the army can be classed together. I know not everybody is the same, but its going to take a lot to get me to trust anybody who supports soldiers or was one for this war.

I just saw this thread, and as a Former Soldier, I am very Hurt by this statement!! Why can you not trust us??? so a few do wrong things, so do normal everyday Citizens, so does this mean you dont tust anyone?? Rediculous satement!!

I would also like to add: my husband was a soldier, my father, my BIL, my cousins, my uncles, grandfathers, great grandfaters ect...I guess you dont like any of us!

[Sirrahsim]

of course this thread has been edited! There is no basis behind statements such as those that were made against our Men and Women in uniform and the original posters must certainly know that or they wouldn't have bothered editing/deleting.

[Vela]

I may not agree with the reasons our president sends our soldiers to war, but I damn well support each and every single one of them out there. I'm sure they are ecstatic to be away from their families, to be away from the comforts of life here. I'm sure it is a lovely picnic in the sun and sand! (sarcasm off)

They have to experience things that will stay with them the rest of their lives. They come home to people like the poster calling them scum, and have to live with people in their own country treating them like they ARE scum. Many in poverty or wounded and can't get jobs or psychological help! Many end up on the streets, mentally and physically wounded for the rest of their lives, and to have the audacity to call them scum....it's disgusting.

To those who have come before, those serving now, and those to come after, thank you for putting your lives on the line, whether you want to be where you are sent or not. You have my most sincere gratitude.

[moosmom]

Wow. I just got through reading this entire thread. One of the things I never debate are sex, politics and religion. Everyone has their opinions. HOWEVER, stereotyping one bad apple isn't right. This guy is getting exactly what he deserves.

I have the UTMOST respect for our men and women in uniform. I believe they are brave and are doing a very difficult job that I wouldn't want to do. To all the people here on this thread who have served their country, I salute you!

The one question that came to mind is, will this guy have to register as a sex offender if he ever gets out (which is doubtful)?

[IRescue452]

I never said I flat out hate anybody who was a soldier. I said I have a hard time relating to and trusting certain people. Everybody is different and I'm perfectly willing to hear out each and every person before making a final judgement on anybody.

BTW, who's opinion is it that soldiers are defending me? So far as I'm concerned I had many of my rights as a U.S. citizen and a human being denied recently, so soldiers are defending a country that descriminates against who gets certain rights. It was only recently that a group won a battle to allow people of my religion to have their religious symbols engraved on tombstones of their dead soldiers. Seems we're having to defend ourselves as soldiers defend the country who denied those symbols to begin with. What an ironic twist of fate.

[Lady's Human]

No, Irescue, you just called all of us scum. Big difference.

[Vela]

I guess you ought to be thankful you even have the right to "fight" to have your symbols added, you wouldn't get that option in most other places. You take a whole lot for granted that a lot of men and women died for.

[IRescue452]

I take it for granted? This country isn't even the U.S. to begin with. Maybe we take it for granted how easy it is to wipe people out when they aren't a convenience.

[Lady's Human]

Wisconsin isn't the USA? Damn, I must have missed the secession.

[moosmom]

Irescue,

I suggest you give up cuz you're not gonna win. Instead, you've managed to piss off alot of people. You're entitled to your opinion and you've voiced it. Move on already.

[Alysser]

Wisconsin isn't the USA? Damn, I must have missed the secession.
:D

[critter crazy]

I never said I flat out hate anybody who was a soldier. I said I have a hard time relating to and trusting certain people. .


Unfortunately after many many many stories like this I don't like any soldiers at all.

Hmmm.....sounds like You DONT LIKE ANY SOLDIERS AT ALL!!!!! Pretty much means hate in my book!:mad:

[Sirrahsim]

Wisconsin isn't the USA? Damn, I must have missed the secession.
:D :D

[Jessika]

I would just like to take this opportunity to thank the veterans among us PT-ers, or PT-ers with friends and family in the military and let you know that you all and they all have my utmost and deepest respect.

Thank you for your services to this country.

For every "bad apple" that are against soldiers, there are thousands upon thousands others that do appreciate your service to this country. And I think I speak for... well almost all of us here at PT when I say - thank you. Honestly and truly, thank you.

[crow_noir]

Woah now just a dam* minute! I never once stated my hatred of the military or the war in this thread (or my entire existence on this forum as far as i can remember.) Do NOT say i said things that i didn't. :mad:

My point in posting this thread is just how sick some individuals can be. How horrible it was what these humans did, these humans who are SUPPOSED to be making PEACE keeping efforts.

This thread had NOTHING to do with my dislike of this war. IF i had wanted to discuss my dislike of the war i would have STARTED or dug up a thread with a title something to the effect of "This War Blows Chunks Of Beer Vomit"

And you don't know me... I have friends and family in the military. I have never once said anything disrespectful to them about their choices. I have even gone to parades for the soldiers. I have shaken their hands, when i was younger I've saluted them. Do NOT put your interpretation of my *actions* down as if they were my own words!


A Lady Zana......how could I ingnore this post.
Ingrate = Ungrateful; an ungrateful person. (According to the Westminster dictionary). You think by calling people ingrates is offensive ???? Well, it seems then that the truth may hurt some. But why would someone be offended by being called ungrateful ????? And isn't that just what Crow has indicated here ?????? She has posted her distaste for war and the military....ALL OF IT !!!!!!! How can she not see what the military has done for her in the past ???? And probably in the future ???? Is that not ungrateful ????? Even if it is her opinion ?????? And yours ????
Honey (please excuse the patronising, but I guess it is my right to say whatever I want to), I'm a Vietnam veteran, and I'll tell you exactly what offensive means.....it means being spat at, ridiculed, called a baby killer, and generally shunned by a certain section of society. But I'm not really that offended by what I experienced, simply because I CHOSE to do what I did, just like Lady's Human here did, professional soldiers, doing what WE believe is the right thing for our country. I really don't care what you believe is the right thing, as much as you don't care what I do. But I hold my peace, I don't go bashing anti war activists, in fact in all the time I have been on PT, I have probably never even mentioned war (except for on occasion with Lady's Human when we PM each other about our experiences).
But, you know, I don't really care what Crow said....true....I've been there, and heard that, it just goes in one ear and out of the other for all that it matters to me. But what I do find I'm annoyed about is being told that my post is offensive !!!!! If one takes issue with being called ungrateful because of what they have said about those who ultimately are responsible for her rights and protection, then she deserves to feel offended about that.
And....for the record.....you mention US patriots, the French and English revolutions ????? Ummmmmmmmm.......they ALL actually formed militias, which is certainly akin to an army at the time.....if they never did that, they would have had buckleys chance of winning. So I stand by my statement, that soldiers have given people the right of free speech, and the right to burn the flag, and they try VERY hard to maintain those rights for you.....do not assume that they are just magically available to you....people have fought and died for that privilege you have.

""However, know it is not ONLY military who defends our rights. The peacemakers do as well.""

Really ???? And how long do you think that would be the case without a military ?????

Wom

[crow_noir]

Lady Zana, I was so VERY glad to seen your post. You said what i was too afraid to say.

I'm so tired of our military getting ALL of the credit keeping our freedoms.

We learn in high school government that by exercising our freedoms we are in turn protecting them. We The People. ALL of us.

Those of us that VOTE and those of us that raise our voices up to our officials. Those of us that protest, those of us who start and sign petitions, those of us that write letters.

And those who start rebellions against unjust governments who get too big for their britches (though sadly it seems those days are long over. Still, my respect goes out to those who gave their lives for freedom.)

Those that write lyrics who move the people who action, those that are brave enough to sing those songs.

The list is almost endless of those we can thank for our freedoms. First and foremost though are our intelligent and forward thinking forefathers.


Who gave her the right to free speech and the ability to burn the flag? The Patriots.....who went to war over having to pay extra taxes. France had a revolution because the people were starving. England had a revolution because their people were starving and out of work. America had a revolution so they wouldn't have to be taxed.

The military doesn't give the right free speech and they aren't the only ones who protect it. The people who USE it also protect it....and she's using to it to voice her opinions and she has this right like everyone else on this board.

"America - love it or leave it." - One of the most Un-American ideas in my opinion. It should be "America - love it or work to change it." We have that right and are very special for it.

Being anti-military might be offending to you. It's her right to be anti-military like it is mine. It's your right to join the military if you want. However, know it is not ONLY military who defends our rights. The peacemakers do as well.

[crow_noir]

Please find the post where I called soldiers scum. I can't find it. (And i can honestly say the only thing i've changed on this topic were a couple of spelling errors and the title of this thread to correct the time.)


No sweetie.....you called us all scum!!!!
That is your opinion of me.......I gave you my opinion of you.
Do I know you ???? Nope !!!!
Do you know me ???? Nope.
You called me scum, I'm calling you an ingrate.
Fair enough ??????
Wom

[jackie]

Please find the post where I called soldiers scum. I can't find it. (And i can honestly say the only thing i've changed on this topic were a couple of spelling errors and the title of this thread to correct the time.)

He is confusing you with IRescue. Who did call soldiers scum, then edited it.


IRescue-
You remind me of a little kid throwing a stone, then running and hiding when the other kids start throwing them back. If you had the courage to post such an opinion, why did you edit it, then continue to defend it? I don't understand.


BTW, who's opinion is it that soldiers are defending me? So far as I'm concerned I had many of my rights as a U.S. citizen and a human being denied recently

Can you list the rights that you have been denied lately? Or even one?

[wombat2u2004]

Folks...........
I have offered my sincerest apologies to Crow by PM, to make amends for mistakenly mentioning her name in my posts where I should have been referring to ID Rescue.
(I gotta change my medication.)
SORRY CROW !!!!!!!!
Wom

[IRescue452]

I edited because people were twisting the sentence. We all know from previous flame throwing posts (and there are so many on PT), that pters can't comprehend English so well. They hear what they want to, and if they don't hear it, they twist around words until they do.

[Lady's Human]

There was no misunderstanding, Irescue, it was there in text, and you edited the post shortly after there were major objections to it.

Next time I'll remember to quote the original post so there's no confusion caused by editing after the fact.

[Vela]

I edited because people were twisting the sentence. We all know from previous flame throwing posts (and there are so many on PT), that pters can't comprehend English so well. They hear what they want to, and if they don't hear it, they twist around words until they do.

So you are condescending first, talk down to ALL military personnel and call them scum, then call PTers basically stupid and can't comprehend English and say your words were twisted around and misinterpreted? You can't misinterpret "soldiers are scum" and "I don't like any of those people". Nothing there to misinterpret.

[AbbyMom]

Exactly.


There was no misunderstanding, Irescue, it was there in text, and you edited the post shortly after there were major objections to it.

[jackie]

Can you list the rights that you have been denied lately? Or even one?

Ahem? :)

[JenBKR]

I may not agree with the reasons our president sends our soldiers to war, but I damn well support each and every single one of them out there. I'm sure they are ecstatic to be away from their families, to be away from the comforts of life here. I'm sure it is a lovely picnic in the sun and sand! (sarcasm off)

They have to experience things that will stay with them the rest of their lives. They come home to people like the poster calling them scum, and have to live with people in their own country treating them like they ARE scum. Many in poverty or wounded and can't get jobs or psychological help! Many end up on the streets, mentally and physically wounded for the rest of their lives, and to have the audacity to call them scum....it's disgusting.

To those who have come before, those serving now, and those to come after, thank you for putting your lives on the line, whether you want to be where you are sent or not. You have my most sincere gratitude.


You said this so much better than I could have. I agree completely. IRescue, I am pretty shocked by your statements - and I only read the edited posts. You mentioned something about your religion - while I don't know what religion you are, I imagine that if someone said that they didn't like any person of that religion at all and called them scum, you would be extremely upset. But I suppose it's ok for you to make sure blanket statements :confused:


As for you saying PT people don't understand English and we misinterpreted it:


Unfortunately after many many many stories like this I don't like any soldiers at all.

Just trying to figure out then what you meant by this statement. I don't see how this can be misinterpreted in any way, it's there in plain English (then again, I am a PTer so I can't comprehend English ;) )

[Jessika]

There was no misunderstanding, Irescue, it was there in text, and you edited the post shortly after there were major objections to it.

Next time I'll remember to quote the original post so there's no confusion caused by editing after the fact.
I did read her original post, and it was clear as day, in black and white. There was no misunderstanding from anyone.

[crow_noir]

I don't want to dig through my memory for i don't want to raise anger or get too off topic in this thread...

First thing that came to my mind is not being allowed to take things on airplanes, into court houses (for crying out loud get lockers!), etc. I don't care if it is for security or not.

The case IR is referring to (I think) is Pagans being denied the right to have ANY of their symbols on military headstones. "Wicca" is an official recognized religion in the U.S. Last year a judge denied a soldier's family the right to have a pentacle (the upright star) placed on his headstone even though the military will technically allow any official religious symbol to be placed on one. OMG that case made me so angry!!! :mad: This is supposed to be the land of religious freedom!!! If he was good enough to serve our military and give his life for this country, i think the least this country can do for him is grant him his request in death. :( This may not affect me personally, but being denied a harmless request like that sends up red flags. I feel indirectly like my rights are being infringed on by this one.

People being hauled away for saying negative things about our president. (Not widely publicized, but earlier on you could find articles here and there of random incidences. Not just celebs getting shunned. I think they finally realized they were pushing it and have lightened up. I haven't read about any recent cases of this happening.) (and I'm not talking about getting hauled away for things like jokes about killing the guy... I'm taking about simple stuff like calling him "King George")

Yeah... that's all i got right now... Like i said though... I don't want to get too angry or off subject.


Can you list the rights that you have been denied lately? Or even one?

[CathyBogart]

Crow, I hadn't heard about the man being denied a pentacle on his headstone - how terribly sad! :( How infuriating that "mainstream" religions get preferential treatment.... :mad:

[Lady's Human]

I remember several cases of people being arrested for making threats against the president, (Not just the current president, but the two previous residents of 1600 PA Ave as well) but for making negative comments? Links please, and something substantial.

Rights infringed? The military was enforcing long standing policy, (The military has a reg for everything, up to and including marital relations with your spouse) the case went to court, the court ruled in favor of having other religious symbols in military cemeteries,case closed. It's the Constitutional process, it worked as it is supposed to. Everyone gets their day in court if needed.

[crow_noir]

I'd love to, i really would. I have a tendency myself not to believe "it" if i can't see it for myself from a credible source. However these cases mostly happened over two or three years ago. Most of the news links would be on my other computer(decommissioned)... anyway old news links rarely work. I read thousands of news articles a year and can't bookmark every single one of them let alone copy them all down to MSWord... which i only recently started doing when i realized my links were no longer working. I can't spend all my time reading the news and copying down articles... I wouldn't have time to do anything else such as writing to my representatives or helping out with the local rescues. ...and with as many things that i save, it takes FOREVER to find anything. *chuckling at self for all the clutter despite efforts at organization*


I remember several cases of people being arrested for making threats against the president, (Not just the current president, but the two previous residents of 1600 PA Ave as well) but for making negative comments? Links please, and something substantial.

[crow_noir]

Now please everyone, finish up (one final rebuttal) what ever you have to say to each other by Noon today and get back on to the topic at hand or i WILL have this thread locked. Though i doubt there is much left to say... I think we're all in agreement that what these four did is horrible.

[Sevaede]

My maternal grandfather was a Marine for over 20 years. He served in Vietnam. He doesn't like to speak of the war (although I do recall a story of having been sprayed with Agent Orange?).

My dad was in the Army for nearly 10 years.

They are very, VERY good men. They have never, and would never, hurt a fly. :(

Not trying to stir up any issues. Just adding some loved ones to the list of PT family who has served. :)

[Vela]

Now please everyone, finish up (one final rebuttal) what ever you have to say to each other by Noon today and get back on to the topic at hand or i WILL have this thread locked.

Is that a joke? LOL If that's NOT a joke it ought to be.

[jackie]

Is that a joke? LOL If that's NOT a joke it ought to be.

Yes, considering she is talking about the right to free speech.

LOL!

[Vela]

Yes, considering she is talking about the right to free speech.

LOL!


That's what I was thinking =x LOL

[Catty1]

Cheney
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5039230,00.html

Back to Abe Lincoln:
http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/did_lincoln.htm

Clinton:
http://www.injusticeline.com/freespch.html

1798 onward; more about freedom of press, but some arrests mentioned
http://hnn.us/articles/392.html

http://www.cpj.org/Briefings/2002/9-11_essay/9-11_essay.html

Throughout U.S. history, civil liberties, including press freedom, have been threatened during times of war. The months after the September 11 attacks were no exception—the U.S. Congress passed legislation curtailing certain civil rights, and the Bush administration, aside from suggesting that criticism could be construed as unpatriotic, asserted a broad right to keep its activities secret from the public. While both these trends have dissipated somewhat during the last few months, they could re-emerge if the U.S. decides to go to war with Iraq.

http://www.nhindymedia.org/newswire/display/4421/index.php

Police eventually led protestors down the road and away from the prying eyes of the press to make their arrest.

[moosmom]

Now please everyone, finish up (one final rebuttal) what ever you have to say to each other by Noon today and get back on to the topic at hand or i WILL have this thread locked.

YOU will have the thread locked??? Um, I hate to break it to ya babe, but the only ones that can lock any threads are Karen and Paul. So lose the high and mighty tude.

[finn's mom]

What pigs those ridiculous excuses for humans are. I hope someone learned a lesson from this.

[Lady's Human]

Catty, the arrests in the last link were made because the protesters violated their permit and trespassed, not because they were protesting.

In the link from George Mason Uni., the last paragraph :




And this time? Excepting news gathered by reporters in areas controlled by the Northern Alliance, the only news the American people are receiving about the war's progress is coming from the Pentagon.

is true for the initial invasion of Afghanistan, but is patently false for subsequent operations. After the initial invasion of Afghanistan, the Pentagon started the embedded reporter program. The initial invasion was not covered by the media as it was a surprise takedown, and the media are notorious for blowing operational security. (As evidenced by the reporters waiting on the beach for the US Marines in Somalia)

[Catty1]

Oh, ok. Wasn't sure.

However, there is a way to find the links CN mentioned if you even have a place or name to Google with. I was kind of flying blind! :)

[Lady's Human]

NP, just pointing out some issues with the links. No harm, no foul.