Daisy attacked Baby!.... When will the fighting END!!!

[tikeyas_mom]

I cannot believe that we are running into this problem AGAIN! We have already had to muzzle baby for being female dog agressive, and now we have to muzzle Daisy too!!! GR :mad:

Lately I have noticed a few small changes in Daisys personality, she has been challenging the other dogs for there food/treats/toys, (she goes very close to the others dogs and stares into their eyes, lowering her head, untill they give up the object she wants).. I assumed she was just starting to be more dominant, because she is getting older now. I always made sure to give her trouble when I seen she was challenging the other dogs for their food/toys/treats.

This is what happend.

From what I understand Baby was asleep on the couch, my mom called her and she got up and stepped on Tikeya *Who was laying on the floor*. Tikeya Growled at Baby, and then Daisy sprung up and started attacking Baby from underneith!!. My mom said that Daisy was biting repeatedly at Babys legs from under her.

My mom yelled at Daisy but she wouldn't let up. Baby was trying to bite Daisy back, but she had her muzzle on (thank god for that).
My brother ran into the living room right when he heard the ruckus and threw his shoe towards the dogs to break up the fight. Daisy ran outside and hid in the bushes, and Baby cowered.

Baby has three puncture wounds, and one cut. Noithing really serious, but as we all know Babys last small wound turned into that horrible Ganegreen infection wich almost killed her.. so we are watching these wounds VERY closely.

I never thought Daisy would do this sort of a thing, but now I am affraid she may not stop because now she knows Baby cant defend herself because shes in a muzzle. So I am affraid Daisy may take advantage of Baby.

I never thought that Daisy would be aggrassvie like this either, she is VERY fearfull of everything, I never would have though she would instigate a fight.


I am so fed up with these dogs fighting all the time.. I really dont know what eles to do now.. I have Daisy in one of Babys old muzzles, but she gets it off very easily.. I am thinking of consulting a beahviourist, but we dont have alot of money to spend on a private trainer..

[shais_mom]

I'm honestly sorry to hear this - you don't need this right now in your stage of pregnancy. Your going to be having a lot on your plate in the next few months- please don't "yell" @ me for saying this but have you thought of rehoming one of them? Or separating them?
This is what happens (so I've heard) when you have 3 females in a household. Which one is dominant? And does the other one want to be 'queen'?
I know you don't believe in disposable pets and neither do I. I'm absolutely against it. BUT your first priority in the next few months is your new son. And if something would happen to him if the dogs get into it - you would never forgive yourself or the dogs. I'm not implying that the dogs or the baby are 'more important' but BOTH are 'helpless' and both of them need YOU to do what's right for them.
I wish you LUCK from the bottom of my heart.

[Hellow]

Hmmmmmm, perhaps adding a male dog will stop the fighting?

[tikeyas_mom]

shais_mom, our living situation is a bit complicated right now.. My boyfriend (Ebony, Daisy, and Tikeya) and I are living with my parents, and their Two dogs (Baby, and Oscar). I have honestly thought that we may have to rehome one of our dogs.. But we cannot bring our selves to do it. I could never give up Tikeya, and my boyfriend would never give up Daisy or Ebony.. Its just really hard. I do think that Daisy may pose a problem with a new baby in the future because she is so fearful, but there has to be another option rather then to rehome her. She is so young *3 years*. And I figure she would be to fearful to rehome anyways, she would never trust anyone. :( We dont know anyone who wants her, because everyone we know is affraid of her.

Having four large breed female dogs in one house, is really hard to deal with. The only one female that doesnt want to be alpha is Ebony. Tikeya, Daisy, and Baby all want to be Dominant. Baby and Tikeya have had some really bad, bloody battles in the past over being alpha.. And niether of them want to give up. Now Daisy is deciding she wants to be alpha too.. so now we have three females who are going at it... :mad: I'm so frusterated.

Reggie: There is one male dog in the house already, his name is Oscar hes my moms little Shih-Tzu.

[luvofallhorses]

How old is Daisy? pit bulls usually don't mature until they are 2 years of age dog aggressive wise. sometimes when they mature they don't get along with other dogs and your mom yelling probably added fuel to the fire and your brother throwing the shoe probably didn't help either. do you have a crate to put Daisy in while you're not able to watch her? I am sorry this happened.. but are any of the dogs on NILIF and YOU need to show them that you are the alpha and not any of them. you have to be top dog in your house and I would start NILIF.

[shais_mom]

shais_mom, our living situation is a bit complicated right now.. My boyfriend (Ebony, Daisy, and Tikeya) and I are living with my parents, and their Two dogs (Baby, and Oscar). I have honestly thought that we may have to rehome one of our dogs.. But we cannot bring our selves to do it. I could never give up Tikeya, and my boyfriend would never give up Daisy or Ebony.. Its just really hard. I do think that Daisy may pose a problem with a new baby in the future because she is so fearful, but there has to be another option rather then to rehome her. She is so young *3 years*. And I figure she would be to fearful to rehome anyways, she would never trust anyone. :( We dont know anyone who wants her, because everyone we know is affraid of her.

Having four large breed female dogs in one house, is really hard to deal with. The only one female that doesnt want to be alpha is Ebony. Tikeya, Daisy, and Baby all want to be Dominant. Baby and Tikeya have had some really bad, bloody battles in the past over being alpha.. And niether of them want to give up. Now Daisy is deciding she wants to be alpha too.. so now we have three females who are going at it... :mad: I'm so frusterated.

Reggie: There is one male dog in the house already, his name is Oscar hes my moms little Shih-Tzu.
thank you for replying to me and not thinking that I'm just trying to be a bad guy altho in my email instant notification I did see the :mad: symbol which upset me b/c I didn't intend to make you mad at all. Rehoming one of my animals would be like cutting an arm or leg off - I couldn't imagine - so I did not suggest it lightly...
you DO have a lot on your plate right now -
I didn't realize there were so many dogs in the mix - adding a male to the mix would just make things worse.
There's a person in market place I think that is a animal psychologist.
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=130834 send them a PM -
it can't hurt.
and again I say GOOD LUCK.

[Catty1]

tikeyas mom - less expensive than a trainer. Nancy Efrusy - she is a pet psychic that has a lot of credibility on PT. efrusy (the At symbol) yahoo(dot)com

She should be back from holidays any time now. Her rates per animal are goo, and she is flexible. She will read first and take payment later.

Just email her a pic of the animal; she is great at getting a sense as to what is going on in their minds, and sometimes the pet even has a suggestion as to what would make things better for them.

Maybe crate someone for now?

[tikeyas_mom]

thank you for replying to me and not thinking that I'm just trying to be a bad guy altho in my email instant notification I did see the :mad: symbol which upset me b/c I didn't intend to make you mad at all. Rehoming one of my animals would be like cutting an arm or leg off - I couldn't imagine - so I did not suggest it lightly...
you DO have a lot on your plate right now -
I didn't realize there were so many dogs in the mix - adding a male to the mix would just make things worse.
There's a person in market place I think that is a animal psychologist.
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=130834 send them a PM -
it can't hurt.
and again I say GOOD LUCK.

No, you did not make me mad at all, we have honestly been thinking of all of our options. Your right adding another dog to the mix would most definatley make things alot worse, I would imagine. We dont need 6 dogs in the house anyways, as much as I would love to have a puppy ;). Thansk for the URL link, I'll check it out.

Catty1, I mean no disrespect, but I honestly dont really believe in the powers of pet psychics.

luvofallhorses, Daisy is three years old, so she is starting to mature.. I can really see it in her behavior, she isnt acting as much like a pup as she once was.. she is alot calmer lately, less mischievous.

[Seravieve]

I know its so hard when one dog attacks another. We've had multiple instances where Zeke (we assume he gets jealous..) attacks Bunny out of the blue.. like she's walking across the living room and he's laying down. The next minute he has her pinned against the wall and there are little tufts of B hair on the carpet.. And He's also attacked Eli a couple times. Probably within a month or so that we got Eli.

He never does any major damage.. Eli now has three puncture scars on his right cheek but other than that.. not a big deal. Im not too sure what Zeke's problem is.. or your dog(s) for that matter. I'd just watch them more closely.. We watch Zeke like a hawk.. he does tend to give of a low warning growl before anything else.. so we usually catch it then.

One observation though.. Daisy could have attacked Baby because she saw Baby as weaker than her because she is confined by a muzzle. So Daisy thought that she could gain dominance, etc while Baby was 'weaker'.

Maybe 5 dogs is just too many with your living situation and the certain dogs you have.. I vaguely remember in the last Attack post that you had mentioned you'd be moving out sometime.. And that will definitely help end all of this stress. Maybe you could separate the dogs by baby gates or something.. Not sure what kind of house you are in.. but maybe one group upstairs, and one group downstairs.. Something like that so they wouldn't all be together, at least until they can get along.

I too agree that adding another dog would only worsen the situation.. why add a new dog to a group of unstable dogs.. that'd just create more chaos and problems. And I'll never resort to telling you to get rid of one of them.. It's like giving up a child.

Might just have to invest in multiple muzzles for a while.. =) I see an order for 4 muzzles in your future.. ;)
Im sorry that youre in this situation.. and I feel your frustration!

[Varga]

Have you read the books by Jan Fennell? She has a great understanding of dogs and it might help you to follow the advice she has in her books. Mostly it's about how you make small changes in your daily routine which make it obvious to your dogs that you are the alpha and not one of them.

It might be worth a try.. But obviously.. I still think a consulting a behaviorist is even better.

[tikeyas_mom]

Maybe 5 dogs is just too many with your living situation and the certain dogs you have.. I vaguely remember in the last Attack post that you had mentioned you'd be moving out sometime.. And that will definitely help end all of this stress. Maybe you could separate the dogs by baby gates or something.. Not sure what kind of house you are in.. but maybe one group upstairs, and one group downstairs.. Something like that so they wouldn't all be together, at least until they can get along.

Yes, we are definatley looking to move out ASAP. But, as of now we haven't found one place for rent that will allow our three dogs. Alot of home owners have turned us down as soon as they hear we own a Pitbull. I have already tried to seperate the dogs with a baby gate but, since we spend most of our time upstairs the dogs HATE it when they are confined to the basement. They just enmd up jumping the gate, or knocking it over to get upstairs. They are part of the family, and crating, or locking them away from everyone just doesnt really seem fair to us..

[Seravieve]

I totally understand having troubles finding a place that will allow dogs.. muchless three of them. And I know.. they do tend to jump the baby gate.. just a thought. We use one at night to keep the dogs upstairs.. but otherwise, if we are downstairs and we lock them up there, Zeke will jump it.. A behaviorist might help.. just seems that all dogs are different. Jealousy might have played into it.. and Daisy seeing her as the weak one in the group..

Sounds like you're between a rock and a hard place.. shoot. I have my fingers crossed for no more dog fights in your household! :)

[Catty1]

In Calgary, the Humane Society has a list of pet-friendly rentals; try your local ones. Having some letters of reference from your vet and/or a past landlord can't hurt either.


Also, how about placing an "Accomodation Wanted" ad? You can spell out your situation, offer references on the dogs (if you can get them, or offer to pay a small extra deposit or something). That way, if and when someone calls, they'll already know what the deal is with pets. (If the pittie has been with you since puppyhood, that's good to mention).

HUGS

[Canis-Lupess]

Splitting dogs up in the same home where there are unresolved issues is not a wise idea because this prevents the dogs from ever resolving the isssue and, if they come into contact again, they'll carry on where they left off. It's not really a viable option and any pet behaviourist would probably advise against it.

The problem seems to be that the pecking order is not stable between the female dogs and this is what they are trying to sort out.
Sometimes, the way the human owners treat the dogs can create more confusion and, in turn, more aggression in order to try and create a stable heirachy.

There is one female who is obviously not interested in climbing the ladder or is too submissive to want to try. It's the others really that things need to change more with.
You need to decide who is naturally the most doominant and has the advantage over the others and then who comes second, then third. You might need to watch the dogs for a few days to see how they act around each other generally. The signs are often very subtle so look carefully.

Once you've found out the order they presently seem to be in even though it sounds like things are a little too evenly matched and are probably made more unstable by the inconsistent way in which they are treated by the humans of the house, you need to emphasize this by treating them as such. no. 1 gets fed first, fussed first, groomed first, even let off and put on lead first when walked and generally treated as higher thanking than no. 2 by yourselves. This must involve every person in the house. Obviously, they need to know you are boss although this dominance thing between owners and dogs is being abandoned by behaviourists as rubbish, the dogs still need to know you aren't the push over type so they are more likely to respect your decision on who is higher ranking amongst them.
No. 2 will be fed, fussed, put on lead, taken off lead, groomed, everything you do with them before no. 3 and if you fuss one and a lower one tries to push in for attention, the lower one should be ignored because this is a more subtle way of trying to climb the ladder, it is not about jealousy. The more attention you can command, the more dominant you are in other words. If one dog can steal the attention of an individual away from another, that dog has won the test of who deserves that individuals attention the most.

You must stick rigidly to these new rules because the dogs won't forget and will notice if you slip up.
I had to do this when my two bitches went through a bad patch years ago and they stopped fighting and I never had a problem since and I could leave them alone together fine without issues.

[tikeyas_mom]

In Calgary, the Humane Society has a list of pet-friendly rentals; try your local ones. Having some letters of reference from your vet and/or a past landlord can't hurt either.


Also, how about placing an "Accomodation Wanted" ad? You can spell out your situation, offer references on the dogs (if you can get them, or offer to pay a small extra deposit or something). That way, if and when someone calls, they'll already know what the deal is with pets. (If the pittie has been with you since puppyhood, that's good to mention).

HUGS



Actually I already have three ads placed in papers already for "accomodation for mature couple wanted" lol. I mentioned that pet/dog must be allowed. we own three very well behaved pooches, and baby boy on the way as well. Noone has yet replied, We have had the three ads placed for about two weeks now.. I hope that somone who is a dog lover, or who just doesnt care either way will call soon.

I have been checking rent finders, homefinders for my area and even areas a couple hours away for ANYTHING that might allow pets and we just havent had any luck.. Everyone seems to allow cats, some allow a small dog, just not large breeds, or more then one..

[shais_mom]

for "accomodation for mature couple wanted" ..
I'm wondering if they think a "mature" couple is like 40 or 50 ish?
Then you add in 3 dogs and a baby on the way - they probably don't know what to think....
:eek: :D

[tikeyas_mom]

I'm wondering if they think a "mature" couple is like 40 or 50 ish?
Then you add in 3 dogs and a baby on the way - they probably don't know what to think....
:eek: :D


hahahaha Do you think thats what people actually think of when they think mature?? Is AKA older couple?? haha OMG I must look like a total loonie bin if thats true lol.

[tikeyas_mom]

Canis-Lupess,
My problem is that three of the female dogs ALL large breeds, All want to be alpha. And We have already had to resort to putting the largest of the three dogs (Great Dane) in a muzzle because she has seriously tried to KILL the other female dogs.
She shows no signs of when she is about to attack the other dogs, she just does it out of the blue with no warning. She has cost me and my parents ALOT of money in vet bills. So in a muzzle she must stay till we move out.

If I had it my way Baby (Great dane) would be the obvious Alpha female, But she cant be allowed out of her muzzle because she is such a freak about attacking the other dogs in the house. Even if they cower to her.

Daisy (Pitbull) would be second in charge, but as of now she thinks she can be first in charge because Baby cant defend herself.

Tikeya (siberian husky) would be third, but she doesn't seem to agree. She doesn't give up being alpha female very easily, even if she has been attacked several times, and nearly died. She holds a HUGE grudge towards Baby for beating her up so many times, so I sence ALOT of tention between Baby and her ALL the time.

Ebony (black lab) she is so passive and carefree. she could honestly care less abou tthe other dogs around her, let alone risking her life to be alpha female.. She is the most well behaved out of the four females.

Oscar (shih tzu)would be the obvious fifth in comand, because he is the smallest.

I have told everyone in the house that if they are to give the dogs treats to make sure that Baby gets hers first, then Daisy, then Tikeya, then Ebony, then oscar.. But there are so many teenaged boys coming in and out of this house that they have a hard time remebering to keep it in that order. Alot of the time Baby gets her treats last because she is in a muzzle and she has to be pput in a seperate room to be given any treats..

[tikeyas_mom]

Canis-Lupess,
My problem is that three of the female dogs ALL large breeds, All want to be alpha. And We have already had to resort to putting the largest of the three dogs (Great Dane) in a muzzle because she has seriously tried to KILL the other female dogs.
She shows no signs of when she is about to attack the other dogs, she just does it out of the blue with no warning. She has cost me and my parents ALOT of money in vet bills. So in a muzzle she must stay till we move out.

If I had it my way Baby (Great dane) would be the obvious Alpha female, But she cant be allowed out of her muzzle because she is such a freak about attacking the other dogs in the house. Even if they cower to her.

Daisy (Pitbull) would be second in charge, but as of now she thinks she can be first in charge because Baby cant defend herself.

Tikeya (siberian husky) would be third, but she doesn't seem to agree. She doesn't give up being alpha female very easily, even if she has been attacked several times, and nearly died. She holds a HUGE grudge towards Baby for beating her up so many times, so I sence ALOT of tention between Baby and her ALL the time.

Ebony (black lab) she is so passive and carefree. she could honestly care less abou tthe other dogs around her, let alone risking her life to be alpha female.. She is the most well behaved out of the four females.

Oscar (shih tzu)would be the obvious fifth in comand, because he is the smallest.

I have told everyone in the house that if they are to give the dogs treats to make sure that Baby gets hers first, then Daisy, then Tikeya, then Ebony, then oscar.. But there are so many teenaged boys coming in and out of this house that they have a hard time remebering to keep it in that order. Alot of the time Baby gets her treats last because she is in a muzzle and she has to be pput in a seperate room to be given any treats.. Or to be fed.

[Catty1]

You may need to use a realtor that will help with rentals.

ALSO - I don't know about your area, but here in Alberta if a place has an assumable mortgage, you don't have to qualify....you just take the mortgage over, and that can be cheaper than rent. You do need to pay the difference between...I can't recall...the present mortgage on the place and what you buy it for?

Anyway, if you or your folks have a realtor friend, they might be worth talking to for advice.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

The fighting won't end until there is one clear pack leader and that has to be you - which is a lot easier said than done I know especially as you are pregnant.

I don't know if anyone here can give you tips on how to show them you are the boss. Archie is forever taking toys off Tobey so I just take the toy away from him so he knows I'm in charge but both my boys are smaller dogs so I wouldn't try anything like that with your girls.

I hope you can get this resolved soon - it can be much fun for either you or the dogs being constantly on edge, which the dogs will sense so are more likely to attack.......

[Giselle]

The fighting won't end until there is one clear pack leader and that has to be you - which is a lot easier said than done I know especially as you are pregnant.

That's what I was going to say. I know you love your dogs a lot (that's obvious :p), but it really doesn't sound like this situation is going to work at this rate. By saying, "Baby is alpha. She's just acting this way because other people and dogs aren't acknowledging her as alpha", you're actually enabling her to act aggressive.

You are alpha. Period. The dogs shouldn't fight with each other if there's nothing to fight over. Leadership? You are leader; there's nothing to fight over. Food? You ration out food; there's nothing to fight over. Toys? You give out toys and you take them back; there's nothing to fight over. At this point, I think you need to start reigning in the dogs again. Leave no toys in the open. No treats. No collars. No muzzles. No food, etc. The house will be barren. They are fed in the morning and again at night. They will Down+Stay before receiving their meal.

I would also advise to stop putting them in pack order. They are the subordinates. Don't go "Baby is first for treats, Daisy is second, Tikeya is third, etc." That's just asking the dogs to challenge among themselves. If you must feed treats, give them a command and *then* give treats. It doesn't matter what order they're in because the point is that they have to do something for you. Thereby, they're inferior to you. Plus, if Baby or Daisy are truly getting aggressive, there is no other option than consulting a behaviorist or considering rehoming the dog. When Ivy was developing leash aggression, I contacted a trainer first thing in the morning. I, too, was short on money, but the trainer and I negotiated a payment plan. Please please do it! Behaviorists are trained and experienced to nip aggression in the bud. They will know how to fix this!

ETA: Just thought of something. You're probably heavily pregnant right now, right? How often do you exercise the pups? Pent up energy can easily be redirected into frustration and, thus, aggression. Maybe that's part of the problem, too.

[cyber-sibes]

They are part of the family, and crating, or locking them away from everyone just doesnt really seem fair to us..
Man, that's a tough situation, and I see red flags popping up because you are going to be bringing a newborn into this situation soon, too. The baby's safety & needs have to come first, even before the great love you have for all of your dogs. Could you live with something happening to your little one because of what a dog out of control with aggression might do? Look at what happened to Anna & Bon, she never imagined she'd get bit. In the heat of a fight, accidents happen. But, there are plenty of people on this board with more than one female and they get along just fine & never have a fight. I guess a lot of it depends on your dogs' personalities.

I hope you are able to find someone who can help you find a solution you can live with. It would be worth the investment. You know we're here to support whatever your decision is. (((hugs)))

[KittyGurl]

Is Daisy spayed? It is common for dogs that are not spayed/nuetered to become aggersive against other dogs.

I would recommend putting up baby gates to seperate your dogs so they won't fight. Also, give them the same attention, they might become jealous of eachother if you give one more attention them the other.

You should really get a trianer when you have a money. It will make a huge difference in your dogs' behavior.

[tikeyas_mom]

I would also advise to stop putting them in pack order. They are the subordinates. Don't go "Baby is first for treats, Daisy is second, Tikeya is third, etc." That's just asking the dogs to challenge among themselves. If you must feed treats, give them a command and *then* give treats.

We ALWAYS make the dogs obay a command before recieving any food/treats, or toys.. They never get treats without having to work for them. When I feed Tikeya, Ebony, and Daisy they are in different areas of our living room (Baby and Oscar are never around when they get fed). I make them all laydown, and wait before they recieve any food. All three listen very well when its feeding time.

Baby gets fed outside, with my mom, she sits and stays before she gets her food.
Oscar has food in his bowl all day, but the other dogs never bother with it, or him.


Man, that's a tough situation, and I see red flags popping up because you are going to be bringing a newborn into this situation soon, too. The baby's safety & needs have to come first, even before the great love you have for all of your dogs. Could you live with something happening to your little one because of what a dog out of control with aggression might do?

I would never be able to live with my self if somthing happend to my baby. I have that lingering fear in the back of my head that Daisy may become fear aggressive towards the new baby. I actually emailed a dog trainer yesterday, she got back to me today, and should be calling any time now. I will talk with her for a bit about Daisys history etc, see what she thinks of the whole situation.. I really dont know how we will be able to afford the training, but we will find away I suppose.. I know first hand that getting in the middle of a fight can end with being seriously hurt, because my mom and I got inbetween Tikeya and Babys last fight, and we both ended up in the hospital.


ETA: Just thought of something. You're probably heavily pregnant right now, right? How often do you exercise the pups? Pent up energy can easily be redirected into frustration and, thus, aggression. Maybe that's part of the problem, too.
I obviously dont excersize the dogs as much now as I did before I got pregnant. But I Make it a goal to walk two dogs, every second day for about 45 min around my naibourhood. I always switch around who I take. (ex: I will walk Tikeya, my mom will walk Oscar.. Then two days later I will Walk Ebony, and my mom will walk Baby etc.. etc..)

Right now I am medical leave, I am not allowed to exercise excessively. So If I find I cannot walk the dogs; My mom and I will take a couple of them to the beach. (We never take Baby or Daisy to the beach because they are so dog aggressive when they are there, but we always make sure Baby and Daisy are seperated if we arn't at home)


Is Daisy spayed? It is common for dogs that are not spayed/nuetered to become aggersive against other dogs. Yes Daisy is spayed.

[Canis-Lupess]

Behaviourists are now saying that dogs do not try to dominate their human owners like they used to think they do.
After researching what some of the leading experts had to say, it seems most of them now agree on this. In fact, Peter Neville said in an interview that when students are taking the pet behaviourists course, they aren't even allowed to use the word dominant anymore.

Even if that was so, the heirachy does not stop at leader. It goes all the way down and if the dogs do not know where they stand with each other, they will fight until they do...
This can lead to death where humans are concerned and their inadvertent interfering stops the dogs from resolving their problems.
Even if the dogs know they aren't leader, that doesn't mean they aren't going to try and climb the ladder. How do you think dogs get to be leader to start with? Also, it isn't all about being leader, it is about having more privileges. With rank comes privilege. If you can take no. 2s place and have their privileges even though you aren't no. 1, you will do it.

It is well known in a pack that most of the fighting takes place between no.s 2 and 3. No. 1 (alpha) is surprisingly tolerant and not involved in much bickering because his status is clear. Nobody dare challenge him. Most arguments take place further down the ranks and thats what is happening here.
If a clear cut ranking order is not established between the dogs and they are treated as equals, they will continue to fight until one comes out on top.

Dogs do not do equality. It isn't a case of human in charge and then dogs all equal underneath them. Dogs do not work like that. The three females with the issue need to know where their place in accordance to each other.
Once the highest of the three doesn't feel threatened by the second because their status has been lowered, she will not attack. She has no reason to. Same goes for second with third.

You can establish your dominance over the dogs all you want but that will never prevent them fighting between themselves over who is going to be no.s 2, 3 and 4 and being no. 1 isn't the only position that dogs fight over as some people seem to mistakenly believe.

[tikeyas_mom]

I have a feeling alot of Daisys problem has to do with her genetics and her puppyhood. I did contact a dog trainer today, she told me that if Daisy was spoiled as a young pup (treated like a person and not a dog, and coddled when she was affraid) She will act out in fear aggression.
She may have just attacked Baby because she was affraid that Baby might attack her first. She also said that if it has anything to do with genetics then Daisy is pretty much beyond help.. She said that once genetics have written a personality pattern in the dogs brain it cant be changed..
She also said that Fear aggression is the hardest type of aggression to cure. She said that Daisy may never be the confident dog I want her to be.
I am setting up a private consult with this trainer for next week, its 50$ for her to meet Daisy and get to know her a little bit. Hopfully this trainer will be able to help us.

[Giselle]

It's true that the pack does not consist of one alpha and the rest being apathetic subordinates. However, in a pack of more than three dogs, the pack will generally fluctuate on a regular basis. And if we try to set into concrete our dogs' positions, we are essentially creating frustration. The beta dogs are in a continual fight for better positions and their position is always liquid, so to treat the dogs in a linear order can't be good. If one day, Dog 1 wins dominance over Dog 2, but you treat Dog 2 higher than Dog 1, there's probably going to be a scuffle that day. I dunno. The more I see the more I just don't agree with treating one dog higher over another =/

Anyhow, I really hope you find the root of the problem. But if it turns out that the dogs will always be fighting in this situation, re-homing wouldn't be a bad or irresponsible idea. I know it's a terrible idea, but I'm scared the dogs will still be fighting with one another when the baby arrives.

[Canis-Lupess]

Doing this sorted out my dogs issues and they never had them again....so it can be good.

Dogs only come into conflict if they manage to raise their status to become too equal to the one above them and then try to challenge them for their position. If the dogs are treated in a way that stops them from raising their status, this won't happen. Also, many fight take place simply because the humans actually raise a lower dogs status. A dog who would remain lower if it was just for the other dogs. I bet if those three females were wild dogs, there wouldn't be the amount of fighting that there is living in a home with humans and, if there was, most of them would be simply quick scuffles with no injuries inflicted.
I know this technique is used by top behaviourists. In fact, I first read of this idea in one of John Fishers books. He has now passed on but he was one of the top pet behaviourists in the world and many U.S behaviourists learnt from him.

Still, as even he was having doubts as to the dominance thing between dog and human before he died, I don't think that the owner establishing dominance over the dogs would make any difference. It is now accepted that they view us as different and not part of their pecking order and do not try to dominate us as such.
When they show aggression towards us or misbehave, it is more about simply trying to protect resources that they are used to having and don't want to have taken from them. Obviously, they only do this with things they've had or have....not with things they've never had but would like to have. Thats what makes them different from people. The resources are not all tangible either as in objects like food or toys...it can account for any kind of aspect or a dogs life.

[CathyBogart]

This is a temporary solution and not a substitute for training (I know you already know that t_m, I just feel compelled to throw it in in case anyone gets the wrong idea) but when Star's aggression started to peak we put her on Clomepramine for a few months while we worked with her. It seemed to make it easier for her to tolerate Wilbur's presence, and it took the "edge" off of her enough that we were able to, over about eight months, work with her on some of her issues. I think we may have ended up having her PTS without it, she bit several people. :(

[wolfsoul]

Jynnelle, I have a $100 certificate for agility classes on the Westside. I'll give it to you and after the baby is born and you have a set schedule you can take Daisy to class.
I find that for dogs that are genetically messed up, it works wonders and builds so much confidence. I've taken classes with some really dog-aggressive dogs and there are definatly ways around it when teaching, and I've taken classes with dogs that lack so much confidence and you should have seen them at the end. The best one was this very nervous GSD. She was so slow and careful about everything she did, and was stuck to her owner like glue -- she wouldn't move ahead, and it took her ages to finally do the teeter as it's probably the scariest obstacle. But at the end of classes she was moving ahead of her owner, wagging her tail, doing the teeter slowly but surely, and was actually happy. The owner said her confidence at home was so much better as well, she wasn't as afraid of people and she was actually approaching what she was afraid and checking it out of instead of just running and hiding. I think it would help Daisy so much.

I am not sure what to think about the pack order because it seems like Tikeya and Baby fight for dominance, and Daisy and Baby fight for dominance, but Tikeya and Daisy would never fight in a thousand years. So wo really IS top dog?? I think they are a little confused too lol.

[tikeyas_mom]

Thanks so much Jordan!! I would love to get that certificate from you!! Shaun and I have been thinking about putting Daisy in dog agility for a while. Because she is so fast and agile, she would be awesome at it.. If she wasnt so affraid.. If you think it might help her confidence, then thats just great!! Because as of now I would try anything, and I have always wanted to put one of my dogs in Agility. :)