Fear Aggression

[tikeyas_mom]

Daisy has slight fear aggression..
(I HATE TO ADMIT THIS) But it is usually the worst around small children, and bikes... She is just dealthy afraid of them.. I bought her a prong collar and took her into a few petstores to socialize, but I have noticed that people will not let their children come near her, because they are afraid of when she might do.. I think seeing a Pitbull on a cholker gives a bad impression??

I have been walking her every second day, getting her out and around kids.. Anytime a child rides by on a bike, or comes up to give her pets, she literally would dart out into traffic if she wasn't on that prong collar!!

Yesterday we had my boyfriends nefew over for a visit (hes 1 years old) and Daisy was sooo afraid of him, She even barked at him and ran down stairs as fast as she could. I forced her to come upstairs, and sit with me and his nefew, she was shaking so badly.. She was soo afraid..

I went on petting her with his nefews hand, and she cowered with her tail right inbetween her legs, she was still shaking prefusly... What can I do to stop her from acting so rediculas??? I honestly dont know what she would do if a toddler/child cornered her.. I'm afraid she might lash out..

And because we have a Baby on the way, it makes me really nervous.
Any suggestions?? I have contacted a local trainer, but I really dont agree with her method of training. I wish the Dog wisperer would come here lol

[crow_noir]

I was mulling this over with S.O. One idea is to use an animal communicator. Another is use Daisy's FAVORITE treat. Be in the same room with you and a kid sitting quietly. (Well, take Daisy for a walk first then give her five minutes of quiet time. Then bring her into the room. Close off escape.) Just you and the kid sit there quietly for as long as it takes. Have the kid have the treats. Make a line with a few leading up to the kid. (Like six inches, 1ft, 1 1/2 ft, 2ft. etc.) Let Daisy come closer at her own pace. When she comes up to the half foot space have the kid put out more more piece at a time each time Daisy comes back.

[Giselle]

Now, does she actually bite/lunge at them? From what you've given us, it sounds like she's terrified of them, but it doesn't sound like she's actually *aggressive* towards them.

Is there a very polite and calm child you know? Ask them to sit on a bench in the park, and hold a piece of plain, boiled chicken on their open hand. Walk Daisy towards the child until she starts showing signs of anxiety. Stop walking, direct her attention to you, and start praising her lavishly. Try walking closer and closer, but *never* allow her to get too scared and anxious. If she gets to that point, you need to take a few steps back and start again. Eventually, you want to get close enough to the child so that Daisy will take the treat from the child's open hand. Tell the child not to look at Daisy and to maintain a very relaxed composure. When Daisy starts taking treats from the child's hand, let the child slowly run her hand on Daisy's neck or chest area. Most likely, she's going to freak out so one method you can try is feeding Daisy yourself and while Daisy is distracted, let the child pet her. Keep reinforcing the idea that children = treats and praise and love! When she starts readily taking treats from the child's hand, you can now ask neighborhood children to feed Daisy a piece of chicken or two. For now, though, stick to friendly and polite children. Good luck!!

ETA: Buy The Cautious Canine by Patricia McConnell. Lucky has severe public anxiety and Ivy is a bit fearful herself. A good trainer and Pat's book have been invaluable to me.

[applesmom]

Here's what I'd do if she was my dog. I'd stop playing into her fears and trying to force the issue immediately.

Then I'd take her on the prong collar and a good solid leash to an area where there are children playing. I'd find a comfortable spot far away from the children but close enough that she can see and hear them. Even as far as a half block away would work in the beginning. Far enough away that she shows no reaction to their presence. Then sit down and relax with her in a completely normal manner. Sit back and read a book if you want to. Do this every day until she comes to take the presence of the children, their fast moves and noises completely for granted. If any children approach during this time politely wave them away and tell them she's in training.

As she becomes more desensatized move in a little closer every few days until she is comfortable within a few yards of the playground. This could take anywhere from 2 weeks to six months depending on the extent of her fears.

Once she has reached the point where she ignores the children completely, then and only then would be the time to gradually introduce the children you want her to meet.

Do it in the same way, by having them play at a comfortable distance for several days and gradually moving closer while talking to you from a distance. Only when she shows no reaction or simply shows normal interest would be the time to let them come close enough to hold out their hand for her to smell. By the time she's gotten to that point, she should be just fine with them within a few more days.

Good luck!

[tikeyas_mom]

Now, does she actually bite/lunge at them? From what you've given us, it sounds like she's terrified of them, but it doesn't sound like she's actually *aggressive* towards them.
.

She has lunged at my boyfriends nefew in the past, and ever since that happend his parents haven't been very willing to bring him over just because of Daisy.
Daisy has lunged at adults in the past (B4 she got spayed). Since we have spayed her she has been more willing to come up and smell peoples open palms.. But she never lets a stranger close enough to pet her inless Shaun or I hold her in the spot.
If somone comes into the house that she doesnt know, she will lung at them barking, and with open mouth .. (she has never bitten anyone, but I fear she might if cornered)

We have tried the treat idea before, and Daisy wasnt willing to comply. My little brother held out a treat for her, and she literally went the long way around to avoid him..

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Understandably you are anxious in this situation which Daisy also picks up on which in her mind reinforces that she has something to be worried about - a vicious (no pun intended) circle.

I would follow applesmom's advice - it may take a very long time but if Daisy senses that you are relaxed around children she may well start to accept them. Ignore her negative behaviour and praise the positive to the heavens.

Any idea what caused this in the first place?

[cali]

treats. take on on a normal collar with LOADS if really tasty treats to grocery stores, just stand out in the parking lot and praise and reward every single time a child walks through the doors. once she is where she is not panicking on sight,the praise and reward if she so much as glances at the kids without reacting(no matter how short, so a clicker works best for this) make sure to stay outside her comfort zone, if she reacts then you are too close, so back off. you can slowly shrink her comfort zone this way.

Daisy doesnt sound near as bad as Happy was, and this method worked a miracle on Happy.

[tikeyas_mom]

Understandably you are anxious in this situation which Daisy also picks up on which in her mind reinforces that she has something to be worried about - a vicious (no pun intended) circle.

I would follow applesmom's advice - it may take a very long time but if Daisy senses that you are relaxed around children she may well start to accept them. Ignore her negative behaviour and praise the positive to the heavens.

Any idea what caused this in the first place?

I actually stay very calm when socializing, I try to stay as calm as possible, which is usually very easy. BUT in the case when there is a baby around, its kinda hard because I just dont know how she will react.. and not knowing worries me. I have taken her to a few grocery stores, and stood outside of them. Shes fine if shes told to "sit", but if a child approaches her, her head lowers drastically, and she will try to run away (if she wern't on a lead I'm sure she would either dart into traffic, or lunge toward the person).

I praise and praise and praise.. She still cowers... Its like she thinks the person is going to hurt her.I have even gotten the strangers to praise her.. I think that actually freaks her out more.
I would love to try that clicker idea, Cali, But they dont sell them around here. At least not that I have seen.

I haven't found a treat that Daisy loves, she usually just takes treats from us and then drops it. She refuses to go near enough to a stranger to take a treat. and When she is in high stress situations, where she is affraid, she will not eat anything.. But I havent tried the chicken idea, or hotdogs might work too.. I will try that today!!

I'm really not sure why Daisy acts like such a freak around people she doesn't know, and children.. When I first met her even, she growled at me, and she would not come within 5 feet of me. She barked at me contantly, looking me right in the eyes like she was wanting me to challenge her.. Took me about 3 weeks to be able to pet her, and that was all me, I would actually walk slowly toward her.. She would sketch away, and hide. Eventually one day I was sitting on the couch beside Shaun and she came onto his lap. I dont think she realised I was sitting right there, because when I touched her she flipped out barking, and ran away.

I think Shaun kinda assumed she was a lost cause, but I dont think he has ever researched dog training before, or tried to socialize her.. He figured she was always going to be like that.. He was going to even breed her!!!! I talked him out of that THANK GOD!!!
We got her spayed, and now she is good as gold with the people she shares the house with. (took a while for her to warm up to my little brothers ages 13-17).. But now she will appraoch them on her own.

I do know that she left her mother at 4 weeks old, wich could have somthing to do with her socilization skills.. She was also given birth to in an outside pen, with hardly any human contact inless they were given food. Her mother was most likely a guard dog, and I have no idea about her dad.. She was given to Shaun at 5 weeks. She is now 3 years. I just started working with Daisy a bit over a year ago.

[cali]

if you cant find a clciker, use a sound, for example my mom uses "TA" for perky rather then a click, and its not exactly a word you randomly say everyday lol

[Giselle]

In all honesty, a professional trainer is probably in order. I thought I had enough experience when dealing with fear and anxiety, but nothing I tried ever seemed to nip Ivy's fear aggression in the bud. Then, I contacted a trainer and it amazed me how simple the solution is. When you yourself are in a stressful situation, it's difficult to gauge how you *really* act. You may think you're staying calm when you're actually sending your dog mixed signals by gripping the leash tightly and holding her back to avoid the child. For example, you said Daisy doesn't let people touch her unless you physically hold her. That physical restraint is only frightening her even more. While physically restraining her may work for a quick pet, it's not doing anything to lessen her anxiety.

I've seen this analogy used over and over again, but it's the clearest explanation: Suppose you are terrified of spiders. If a person stuck a tarantula in your face and said, "It's okay. She's nice and friendly", would you feel better? Would you touch it? Probably not. You'd only go near it if the person held the spider on his open hand and allowed you to approach it whenever *you* are comfortable. The same goes with Daisy. You have to get her to approach a child on *her* own time. If you follow what I wrote in the previous post (and please, go slowly) Daisy will eventually come around. Even if it takes you a week to get her within 20 feet of the child, it's still good progress!

How did your little brother hold the treat? Was he leaning his hand out towards her and beckoning her to come near? Was he making any frightening gestures (shaking his hand? jiggling the treat?)? In order for my method to work, the child must not do anything whatsoever. He must be sitting calmly and looking away from the dog.

Also, for training treats, I never settle for less than real meat. I can almost guarantee you that Daisy will not refuse plain boiled chicken or beef or turkey, etc. ;) Good luck!

[applesmom]

Allowing any small child within 20 feet of this fearful dog is an invitation to disaster!

Her fears have been reinforced and confirmed over and over by the reasurrances and the added pressure she's been getting when she acts this way. The only way she's ever going to accept small children and strangers is to desensatize her in a calm setting as described above.

For right now forget the food, forget the reasurrances and the pampering and concentrate on allowing her to view strange people and things from a distance with no added stress or attempts at bribery!

The situation can be overcome but it didn't come about overnight and it isn't something that can be resolved quickly.

[tikeyas_mom]

In all honesty, a professional trainer is probably in order. I thought I had enough experience when dealing with fear and anxiety, but nothing I tried ever seemed to nip Ivy's fear aggression in the bud. Then, I contacted a trainer and it amazed me how simple the solution is. When you yourself are in a stressful situation, it's difficult to gauge how you *really* act. You may think you're staying calm when you're actually sending your dog mixed signals by gripping the leash tightly and holding her back to avoid the child. For example, you said Daisy doesn't let people touch her unless you physically hold her. That physical restraint is only frightening her even more. While physically restraining her may work for a quick pet, it's not doing anything to lessen her anxiety.

I've seen this analogy used over and over again, but it's the clearest explanation: Suppose you are terrified of spiders. If a person stuck a tarantula in your face and said, "It's okay. She's nice and friendly", would you feel better? Would you touch it? Probably not. You'd only go near it if the person held the spider on his open hand and allowed you to approach it whenever *you* are comfortable. The same goes with Daisy. You have to get her to approach a child on *her* own time. If you follow what I wrote in the previous post (and please, go slowly) Daisy will eventually come around. Even if it takes you a week to get her within 20 feet of the child, it's still good progress!

How did your little brother hold the treat? Was he leaning his hand out towards her and beckoning her to come near? Was he making any frightening gestures (shaking his hand? jiggling the treat?)? In order for my method to work, the child must not do anything whatsoever. He must be sitting calmly and looking away from the dog.

Also, for training treats, I never settle for less than real meat. I can almost guarantee you that Daisy will not refuse plain boiled chicken or beef or turkey, etc. ;) Good luck!



Thanks so much for the helpful post!! I will start trying the cooked chicken idea. Hopfully it'll pull through.. Today on our walk we walked by several new serwer caps that have just been put in around our home.. Daisy is dealthy affraid of them too? I dont know why, I made her sit on every single one to try to break her fears. Wich didnt really work. But she did sit, and she did listen when said Stay. So I will just keep at it and hopfully it works out.

[agilityk9trainer]

OK. Let me get this right. You have a scared pitbull that has lunged at children in the past and you TOOK THE HAND of a ONE YEAR OLD and made it pet your SHAKING DOG!!!! :eek: Guys!!! Where on earth is your common sense!!!!

This dog is a time bomb. Fear aggression can pop at any second, and you cannot predict it. You put that child - and the dog - in extreme danger! Everytime you take your dog around children, you are putting them and the dog at risk.

You are trying to over come fears using the "flooding" technique that rarely works. Flooding is when you force a dog to face it's fears. That's what you're doing. And, doing it mighty dangerously at that.

I can't believe the first post you got didn't tell you to seek professional help. This is a strong breed with a history of growling and lunging out of fear. You absolutely need to get an animal behaviorist or a trainer on the case. You do not need to be working this on your own or seeking advice over the internet.

Aggressions are very tricky for professional trainers. Thet must see the dog in person to help. Seeking advice over the internet is a bad idea as the way you treat one aggression feeds the other. Do not hesitate. You are not going about this in at all the right way, and you need help now. Get one-on-one professional help, and do not delay. This is very serious.

[tikeyas_mom]

I would never put a child in danger, I figured that if Daisy seen the child was no harm she would feel better about coming up to him. She has indeed lunged and growled at children, and strangers, BUT she has never bitten anyone. We dont have a good trainer in this area. So this is why I am forced to deal with her on my own.

[agilityk9trainer]

If you brought a one year old child anywhere in the vacinity of a shaking, fearful pittbull, you DID put a child in REAL danger. Again, you CANNOT predict when a fear aggressive dog will react. You dog has lunged and growled in the past. This WAS a very dangerous act, and I hope you do not repeat it.

No matter if you have to drive a few hours to get help, you need help. Also, people tend to say, "There are no trainers near us" when they really haven't looked in the proper places. Most traienrs are not on in the phone book nor on the internet. To find a good trainer, you have to ask. Call your vet. Call your local animal sheltier. Look at major cities near you. If you're in the US, you can find a trainer within a couple hours drive (unless you're really in the boonies).

Your lack of understanding of this issue did put a child at risk, and every time your dog is near children, they are at risk. Quit wearing blinders and get the help yoru dog needs.

[Jadapit]

I feel for you having a fear aggressive dog. Thankfully Ebony has no fear issues at all. I have some sites you might want to check out. One is a pit bull forum, there are lots of people on their that know tons about the breed. I have learned a lot just reading stuff their. The working pit bull site is amazing. The lady that runs the site really knows her stuff about pit bulls. She trains them. Also, Jason at pit bull lovers gazette is super nice and really knowledgeable about the breed. He's really good about emailing you back if you email him. Maybe one or all of these places will help you out. I know you must be frustrated. Please keep us posted on Daisy.

http://www.pitbullforum.com/index.php
http://www.workingpitbull.com/
http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pit-bull-lover-gazette.html

[tikeyas_mom]

I feel for you having a fear aggressive dog. Thankfully Ebony has no fear issues at all. I have some sites you might want to check out. One is a pit bull forum, there are lots of people on their that know tons about the breed. I have learned a lot just reading stuff their. The working pit bull site is amazing. The lady that runs the site really knows her stuff about pit bulls. She trains them. Also, Jason at pit bull lovers gazette is super nice and really knowledgeable about the breed. He's really good about emailing you back if you email him. Maybe one or all of these places will help you out. I know you must be frustrated. Please keep us posted on Daisy.

http://www.pitbullforum.com/index.php
http://www.workingpitbull.com/
http://www.pitbulllovers.com/pit-bu...er-gazette.html
Thanks for those sites I will Check them out right away.. I am havig a really hard time emotionally with Daisy, I really love her, and I hope we can get over this hump. I wish I would have known her as a puppy, then she would have NEVER turned out this way. It really makes me sad.




No matter if you have to drive a few hours to get help, you need help. Also, people tend to say, "There are no trainers near us" when they really haven't looked in the proper places. Most traienrs are not on in the phone book nor on the internet. To find a good trainer, you have to ask. Call your vet. Call your local animal sheltier. Look at major cities near you. If you're in the US, you can find a trainer within a couple hours drive (unless you're really in the boonies).

Your lack of understanding of this issue did put a child at risk, and every time your dog is near children, they are at risk. Quit wearing blinders and get the help yoru dog needs.

I dont live in the US, and there isnt any good trainers around me. Yes there are a few trainers in my area (puppy classes n' agility training) But none that deal with the issues that Daisy has. Even if there was I highly doubt Daisy would let the trainer even get close to her.

The closest good trainer would have to be in Vancouver, But thats a 4.5 hour drive. We cant just pick up and leave to go to Van, my BF works 6 days a week-14 hour days, and I have no idea of even how to get to Vancouver on my own. Not to mention how expensive it is to drive there, and get a hotel (its like a weekend trip). We just cant do it, not on our budget. If there was a good trainer or even a behaviorist here I would gladly contact them. But sadly there isn't that option for us.

I am trying to figure out what I can do to help my dog. There has to be a way to fix this problem without a trainer. I have spoken to the vets about my problem, (and about Babys too, shes our Great Dane who is female dog aggressive) And the only person she could think of to recommend was a trainer nearby. This particular trainer We have gone through in the past, and I wouldn't do it again.

I'm definitely not blind to the fact that my dog needs help, I want to help her. We are doing every option we have available to do so.
Daisy is going to have to learn to be around children, and thats THAT!. If she can't learn, then I dont know what we will do. We have a Baby coming in Three months, so we have that long to figure this out. I have been already working on socializing Daisy for more then a year, taking her to dog parks, family parks, the store, walks downtown, in petstores, to peoples houses, inviting people she doesn't know over, getting them to pet her etc etc etc.. And she has gotten ALOT better since we spayed her. But she still doesn't like other dogs while she is on a lead, and she is affraid of children/strangers and bikes.

[agilityk9trainer]

I understand your situation and I feel for you. The fact remains that you do need help here. You have made some really basic and dangerous errors in judgement and training. Your dog can be helped, but you need to get the right instruction. And, you can't beat one on one training. BTW, many good agility instructors can help you. Call them and find out.

In my area of the country, we often travel five hours to trainers. It's what we do for our dogs. My suggestion is to find a good trainer and go make a visit even if its a long drive. You can accomplish a lot in only one or two visits. As you're on a time schedule and you have a baby coming, you do need to get on this issue.

This is a dangerous situation that you don't want to leave up to internet advice. The results to you new baby could be disasterous.