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CathyBogart
03-01-2007, 01:47 PM
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/02/28/BAG8NOC0OD129.DTL

Mandatory spay/neuter bill upsets dog, cat breeders

(02-28) 19:18 PST Sacramento -- Breeders of domestic pets are howling mad over a bill that would require all dogs and cats in California to be spayed or neutered unless they are registered purebreds and have special, government-issued permits.

The main goal of AB1634 is to combat the overpopulation of stray pets -- a problem that forces cities like Los Angeles to spend millions of dollars to expand and build new animal shelters, said the bill's author, Assemblyman Lloyd Levine, D-Van Nuys. Shelters euthanize nearly half a million dogs and cats every year, he said.

"We simply have a huge problem in the state with pet overpopulation," Levine said. "I can't tell you how many people have complained to me about cats defecating in their yards, flowerbeds ... and in sandboxes where kids play. It's a huge public safety and public health issue."

The bill, which was introduced Friday and hasn't yet had its first committee hearing, already has picked up a co-sponsor in Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa, a former speaker of the Assembly.

But dog and cat enthusiasts argue that the bill would force breeders to go underground and in the end wouldn't make a dent in the growing population of strays.

"It may be well intentioned, but it's poorly aimed," said Diane Jacobsen, 65, of Sebastopol, who has been breeding Rhodesian ridgebacks for 45 years.

If the bill becomes law, Jacobsen's dogs would qualify for an intact permit, which would exempt animals from spaying if they are purebred and registered with the American Kennel Club, the United Kennel Club, the American Dog Breeders Association or the International Cat Association.

The only other exceptions would be animals used for professional purposes, including guide dogs and the police canine unit.

The permit fee, which would apply to each pet, would be set by local animal control agencies. If similar actions taken by other local governments in the past are any indication, the fee could range from $100 to $150, Jacobsen said.

"I have 25 dogs. Do you know what that will cost me?" she said. "I don't have that many litters, but I have intact bitches because I want to retain my breed."

Pet owners who don't get permits and don't spay or neuter their dogs or cats by the time they are 4 months old would face costly fines under the proposed law. They would be issued a ticket that would give them 30 days to alter the animal without penalty or pay a $500 fine for the first month and $50 for each subsequent month. Animal control officers would be required to check any pets they came in contact with.

Money collected through fines and the new permit would be retained by local animal control agencies to help pay for subsidized spaying and neutering programs.

"It's going to just impact law-abiding folks," said Jacobsen, a member of the Bay Area Rhodesian Ridgeback Club.

Cynthia Kelly, 60, of Berkeley, also a member of the club, echoed her sentiments, adding that irresponsible "backyard breeders" who don't test their breeding stock for such things as genetic diseases will never fess up to animal control and will simply go underground.

"They won't get the permit, and they're going to have their litter of puppies anyway," said Kelly, who owns four Rhodesian ridgeback dogs and is an artist specializing in animal portraits.

Breeders already go out of their way not to contribute to the problem of stray animals clogging local shelters, she said.

Kathy Morlang, 52, of Sutter Creek in Amador County, said her network of Bengal cat breeders also follows strict guidelines, such as spaying or neutering any kittens that are sold, and thus doesn't contribute to the problem that Levine is spotlighting.

"It's simply not fair to the breeders who are filling the demand for healthy kittens," she said.

Yet another concern is the bill's requirement that the animals be fixed at such a young age, Kelly said.

"There's been studies done on spaying and neutering where they've seen higher cases of cancer and hip dysplasia," Kelly said. "We still support spaying and neutering for pets, but new findings have made us all look at that issue again."

Proponents of the bill argue the numbers are overwhelmingly in support of curtailing the number of dogs and cats that are being picked up by animal control officers every year.

In 2005, the latest year for which state data is available, 44 out of 61 local jurisdictions reported a total of 607, 164 cats and dogs entering animal shelters, according to the veterinary public health section of the California Department of Health Services. The data is incomplete because many local agencies do not report the figures despite a requirement to do so, said Judie Mancuso, campaign director for a coalition of bill supporters that includes animal control directors and some veterinary groups.

She believes the actual statewide number is more than 841,000 and thinks about half of those pets were euthanized.

The problem isn't as acute in San Francisco, where aggressive pet-owner education and low-cost spaying and neutering programs have reduced the number of strays entering the animal shelters, said Carl Friedman, director of San Francisco's Animal Care & Control department. More than 80 percent of the 9,000 cats and dogs the city took in during the last fiscal year were adopted or recovered by their owners.

Mancuso said the legislation would not lead to the end of mixed breeds because some pet owners always will neglect to have their pets spayed and neutered, and local animal control officers won't be going door to door enforcing the measure. She said animal shelters will always have strays available for adoption.

The bill is "not the end-all, be-all solution, but this gives animal control officers another tool," she said.

AB1634 is not groundbreaking legislation. Rhode Island has a similar law, and New Mexico is considering a similar bill. Some California cities have addressed the issue. San Francisco has a spaying and neutering requirement for pit bulls, the result of a mauling incident two years ago.

Mancuso said her group is working with Levine's staff to amend the bill to allow local ordinances that are stricter than the state legislation if it becomes law.

But the legislation is a "club approach" that will have unintended consequences, said Assemblyman Doug LaMalfa, R-Richvale (Butte County). He said it will have a tough time finding support among many Republicans.

"A lot of folks like to breed hunting dogs, for example, and they shouldn't have to go through a government bureaucracy just to have a few more Labradors," he said.

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I think that, at the point where the overpopulation problem is at right now, this is a good, and indeed a necessary thing. I think the responsible breeders won't have much gripe about jumping through this hoop, especially the ones who have worked in rescue and seen how many dogs and cats are euthanized each year.

caseysmom
03-01-2007, 01:51 PM
I have thought we needed a law like this for a long time.

caseysmom
03-03-2007, 01:12 PM
nobody else has an opinion? The only part of this I don't agree with is the purebred part..

I am just curious what everyone thinks.....

DrKym
03-03-2007, 01:27 PM
caseysmom..I too think the law is needed but I am thinking hard about my reply, I do agree with most of this, but there seem to be a few loopholes that will lack teeth in enforcement. I will mull this over and give my full thoughts in a bit.

Cathy thanks for a very informative link.

caseysmom
03-03-2007, 01:29 PM
Thats how I feel too Dr. Goodnow, in theory its a good idea but is it practical?

DrKym
03-03-2007, 01:41 PM
Im not sure how practical, I understand the fines are a scare tactic, but that will only work on the honest ethical people.

The BYB and mills won't care. Also even if found and closed and fined, they wont have the funds to pay it.

My concern also is that in this article is a quote of having 25 dogs, because she wants her breed to remain intact. I am sorry I have bred very good dogs for many years, before doing rescue, if you have 25 intact dogs you are a mill. That is my opinion, and I will stick by it. Not all 25 can be such amazing reps of the breed that they need to be left intact.

I also think that without being able to have access to vet records there is no way to verify if the animals are intact. There are serious issues with that on many levels. Also unless you came to my house when one bitch is in heat you cannot prove she ISNT spayed. Dogs can be visually checked.

Again I am still poring over it but those are a few concerns, I think if it was really looked at and some issues addressed, it would be an amazing thing, and that other states and counties should follow.

Kym

Aspen and Misty
03-03-2007, 02:35 PM
The only thing I don't like is I don't feel the AKC is a reliable source to say what dogs should breed or not breed. They register almost any old dog on the street. My sister's pom is registered by the AKC and she weighs 15 pounds (she isn't fat, just tall), is very tall for a pom and her knees pop out of joint if she moves them the wrong way (she will need corrective surgery if they get worse). However she is registered, so according to this law if I pay the money I can breed her and have lots of little poms with lots of little health problems.

However, this is what I think they should do:
I think they should create a temporary license that if purchased will allow a pur-bred dog to remain intact till the age of two. During the 2 years that the dog is intact it has to gain some kind of titles and pass all the necessary test (hips, eyes, elbows etc). If they do both of these and the dog's hips, eye, elbow test come out good and the person still want to keep the dog intact then they can buy a license that will allow the dog to remain intact for the rest of it's life. However if they have not done anything with the dog or the dog does not get good ratings on the test then they should not be allowed to purchase the full license and they should have to spay or neuter.

Ashley

lizbud
03-03-2007, 05:01 PM
nobody else has an opinion? The only part of this I don't agree with is the purebred part..

I am just curious what everyone thinks.....

I definately have an opinion, but could you elaborate a little on what
you mean by the purebred part?.It doesn't jump out at me from first reading.

moosmom
03-03-2007, 07:08 PM
Breeders of domestic pets are howling mad over a bill that would require all dogs and cats in California to be spayed or neutered unless they are registered purebreds and have special, government-issued permits

IT'S ABOUT TIME!!!!!!!!!!!

I pray that other states, including Connecticut, follow suit and SOOOOON!!!

I don't understand why breeders are so ticked off. As long as they're licensed and aren't doing anything wrong, WHAT'S THE PROBLEM???

ontariogreys
03-03-2007, 08:08 PM
The proposed look more like a goverment cash grab on the growing pet industry
the only winners would end up being the puppymills that mass produce and sell pups for obscene amounts that can absorb the costs, not the responsible breeder would is already putting in big $ to show and do genetic testing which would force them out of business or to reduce their testing
Ashley goes along the lines I would agree with, the other problem is that that there are several ancient breeds or european breeds that these registries do not recognize some being very rare, with only a small number in existence worldwide which could destroy the breeding pool should the ruling go thru examples Peruvian Inca Orchid, Azawakh just to name a couple, they could be wiped out but if this goes thru .

I would rather see it made illegal for there to be sales of puppies/ and cats in stores or any other public place which would stop impulse buys and have guidelines to how many intact dogs a breeder can have on their premises, with a once a year breeder fee of say $100(not per dog) with the municipality having the right to make surprise inspections to ensure dogs are cared for and with in the allowable intact dog quota ( proof of spay would be vet record and must be available for showing) all pet quality puppies/cats must be held by the breeder till 12 weeks old and must be spayed and neutered before being sold, show breed quality pups will have and additional $50 fee applied as a form of registration and followup to city or state, at 24 months of age must go to a vet to provide proof some genetic testing specific to the breed and to a breed club for the dog to be assessed if it meets breed standards if it passes can be kept intact but would then require that owner to pay the kennel fee, if not than the dog must then be altered this would at least help to assure dogs of better quality are used for future breedings. Instead of fines have seizures of property much like in drug and wild game enforcement. Introduce a anonymous TIPS program for reports suspected puppymills to encourage the public to report

Marigold2
03-03-2007, 08:32 PM
I think this is a good idea. If anyone can come up with something better let them try and make it a law.

caseysmom
03-03-2007, 09:22 PM
Lizbud, they are making an exception to the rule for purebreds...see where moosmom quotes that part above....

Giselle
03-04-2007, 01:28 AM
However, this is what I think they should do:
I think they should create a temporary license that if purchased will allow a pur-bred dog to remain intact till the age of two. During the 2 years that the dog is intact it has to gain some kind of titles and pass all the necessary test (hips, eyes, elbows etc). If they do both of these and the dog's hips, eye, elbow test come out good and the person still want to keep the dog intact then they can buy a license that will allow the dog to remain intact for the rest of it's life. However if they have not done anything with the dog or the dog does not get good ratings on the test then they should not be allowed to purchase the full license and they should have to spay or neuter.
Kudos to you because that is a wonderful plan, but the honest truth is that the government lacks the time and money to do any of that. IMO, the bill won't work. It targets the wrong group.

Look at licensing. It may have cut down rabies (but I fully believe that is because of responsible veterinarians), but I know MANY dogs who are not licensed. This honestly sounds like a ploy for money. I don't like it. I think it targets the wrong group entirely. They're also skewed as to what dog qualifies as an exception. I know a grey who has epilepsy and other health problems and, thus, cannot be neutered. Because of his disease, he's required to pay $100-$150 dollars every year? I know all his medications and tests have made a huge dent in his owner's pocket, and, yeah, I'd be mad if I was forced to pay that fee because my dog had a health problem. Heck, I don't even know if he would qualify for the permit because he's not registered with the AKC. He's not even reg'd with the NGA. And, come on, folks, the American Dog Breeders Association? It's going to become puppy mill haven! I don't think this bill is going to do a d@mned thing with pet overpopulation. Licensing tried to cut down on the population as a sort of side-effect. Look where it got us. It didn't work. I honestly don't think this will either.

ETA: Ontariogreys, you're right. It would wipe out the rarer breeds. I also know that there is a large amount of Chart Polski in California (I believe their group is centered around northern CA), and I shudder to think of what will happen to them if this bill passes. I also know that there is a large amount of Silken Windhounds here, as well. Of course, they could probably just register with the "American Dog Breeders Association"... ugh.

caseysmom
03-04-2007, 11:02 AM
Thats the main critisims of the bill, it sounds like it might push many of the bad breeders underground. Well I sure wish that there was some good solution or that somebody would think of a good one.

applesmom
03-04-2007, 11:36 AM
Im not sure how practical, I understand the fines are a scare tactic, but that will only work on the honest ethical people.

The BYB and mills won't care. Also even if found and closed and fined, they wont have the funds to pay it.

My concern also is that in this article is a quote of having 25 dogs, because she wants her breed to remain intact. I am sorry I have bred very good dogs for many years, before doing rescue, if you have 25 intact dogs you are a mill. That is my opinion, and I will stick by it. Not all 25 can be such amazing reps of the breed that they need to be left intact.

I also think that without being able to have access to vet records there is no way to verify if the animals are intact. There are serious issues with that on many levels. Also unless you came to my house when one bitch is in heat you cannot prove she ISNT spayed. Dogs can be visually checked.

Again I am still poring over it but those are a few concerns, I think if it was really looked at and some issues addressed, it would be an amazing thing, and that other states and counties should follow.

Kym

Darn! You beat me to it and said it better than I could have Kym. ;)

We don't need more laws that can't or won't be enforced. What we do need is consistent enforcement of the existing laws and education, education and more education.

"If you have 25 intact dogs you are a mill." Absolutely!

DrKym
03-04-2007, 12:24 PM
Thanks Carole!
I figured you were busy yesterday or you would have posted the same ;) .

The issue isn't about the fines, those are in place in many areas, and are toothless.

The fact is when you get down to it, there is not the manpower needed to enforce a law of this sweeping magnitude. Laws are for the honest, as the dishonest will find a way around them.

It is an issue that will only be fixed with education, determination and the ability of people willing to get involved. If you see 25 dogs in a yard and hear pups all the time make a call. Be willing to get involved, donate to TNR programs even if its only your time or a 10.00 bill.

Transport animals when possible, be willing to actively educate and host seminars, if there aren't any then create them. Knock on vets doors and ask for them to donate time for low cost clinics, for vaccinations and neuterings, don't let one No discourage you from asking others.

If these kinds of grass root measures were taken up, in earnest and with commitment, then we could change a lot, and help shut down many BYBs.

Just my thoughts

Kym

mike001
03-04-2007, 01:37 PM
I agree with this bill wholeheartedly. The shelters are brimming with unwanted animals as it is. This could be the beginning of the end to all these poor dogs being euthanized. As for exempting purebreds, I don't approve unless they have been thoroughly tested and proven to be a notable breeding dog. There are just as many purebreds in shelters that have been put there by BYB. I am hoping that this would be the start of a great saving factor for al the street dogs out there.

CathyBogart
03-04-2007, 04:52 PM
Even if only law-abiding people abide by this, and even if it's only sporadically enforced, it's SOMETHING. It WILL put a dent in the overpopulation problem, even if it's a small one at first.

DrKym
03-04-2007, 06:05 PM
Even if only law-abiding people abide by this, and even if it's only sporadically enforced, it's SOMETHING. It WILL put a dent in the overpopulation problem, even if it's a small one at first.

I agree Cathy, but we also need to supplement it. I fear it doesn't have enough teeth to make it truly viable, and I fear that like many laws of this type , it will be a year or so of diligence, and that back to the same old same old, due to burnout, and just not enough manpower to enforce it :(

It IS a start though :)

Giselle
03-04-2007, 09:11 PM
Indeed, this will become a toothless law, just as licensing has. Look at it. Nobody gets in trouble for an unlicensed animal (unless, of course, you have a neighbor with a vendetta). Police are far too busy with crime control. Ergo, nobody even cares about licensing anymore. I really think this bill is just another version of licensing. The solution is not to create alternate options and hope that one that "works". The solution is to actually *enforce* existing laws, and, if deemed necessary, tweak them a bit.

I'm not sure if every veterinarian in CA does this (or if it's the law), but my vet notifies the county if your cat/dog is not licensed. The county sends you a license application form, and you either return it with a check or pay a hefty fine a few days later. If this isn't the law, they better make sure it is. Secondly, I believe they should have a "rebate" of sorts. If your animal is not altered, you pay the fees for an intact pet, but if you can provide proof of spay/neutering to your current veterinarian, you are given a "rebate". For example, I think the fee for an altered pet is $40. An unaltered pet is around $100. If you speuter that pet, you receive $60 back. The license for altered pets should be permanent (a one time fee) whereas the fee for intact pets needs yearly renewal. There should be appropriate exemptions, of course, for pets with health problems. And I don't know the regulations for kennel license, but THAT is what we should focus on. We should not punish the entire population for a couple unscrupulous puppy millers.

caseysmom
03-04-2007, 09:15 PM
Giselle...I have never had a vet ask me if my dogs are licensed...of course they are but I have never been asked.

I have a friend that moved into a new subdivision and animal control went door to door to make sure the animals were licensed.

Giselle
03-04-2007, 10:00 PM
Caseysmom, I think the secretary is in charge of noting if an animal is or isn't licensed via the tags. I suppose if your animal doesn't have a tag, they'll ask for proof or just write your name down. When we first got Lucky, he didn't have a license and we received a notice from the county a few days afterward. I really don't think licensing has a lot of "teeth" over here =/ The police is sooo preoccupied with crime control, it really has no time to go door to door. I know a lot of people whose dogs aren't licensed because they see no purpose to it and nobody has ever asked them to. I think the importance of education was brought up earlier, and I have to agree. Education is probably the only solution that we can all agree on :)