Agression towards Men!

[critter crazy]

Well I am sure you all remember when I brought Rocky home, that he had some issues with hubby right away. Well since then he has been fabulous. Unfortunately today he tried to Bite my father In-law! he actually had his hand in his mouth! he didnt draw blood or break skin, but we were all scared to death! He has no issues with women or children, but obviously does not like men! Which seems odd as he came from an older gentleman! I am just not sure what to do about it?? how can you fix this bahavior??? It scared the heck out of me, not to mention my FIL!!:eek:

[Freedom]

Do you know FIL was doing just prior to his? Was he talking to you, hubby, one of the kids, or the dog? Was he petting Rocky? Or waving his hands around as he talked? Was he standing or sitting? Has FIL visited prior to this, or is this the first time Rocky met him? Did FIL have food on a plate?

Some of this will help get an idea of what is going on with Rocky. With more info, folks will be able to give you more guidance.

[critter crazy]

This was my FIL's first time to the house since we got Rocky, and also the first man to visit since we have had him. My aunts and Sil's have visited many times, but this is the first time a strange male has come to the house.

My FIL came in, and the dogs were at the door, so he put his hand out by his side for Rocky to sniff, talking to him and saying hello and next ting you know it was in his mouth! He never growled or anything, he was acting fine, walked up and sniffed him, then Bam! Hand in his mouth! he then started growling, we thought for sure he had bitten him! but thankfully not!

so I walked over, and very clamly told rocky to come downstairs with me, and he did. I just wasnt sure what to do. I am just glad my FIL wasnt hurt.

[borzoimom]

Well I am sure you all remember when I brought Rocky home, that he had some issues with hubby right away. Well since then he has been fabulous. Unfortunately today he tried to Bite my father In-law! he actually had his hand in his mouth! he didnt draw blood or break skin, but we were all scared to death! He has no issues with women or children, but obviously does not like men! Which seems odd as he came from an older gentleman! I am just not sure what to do about it?? how can you fix this bahavior??? It scared the heck out of me, not to mention my FIL!!:eek:
I am assuming your FIL doesnt live with you right??
Critter Crazy- I doknow what happened, what the situation surrounding this ( were you actually in the room, or coming to the door behind the dogs), but I will tell you this- Rocky is a huge dog, and if he meant to hurt it, that would not have been hard to do AT ALL! Even sometimes a nick on the hand would have still been- the dog didnt mean to hurt him- just that Rocky was warning him. Take a real good look at the situation surrounding this.
Do you remember when you got him, with his reaction to hubby? Remember I told you if the dog loved his previous, he may have looked at your husband then became " confused, or angry" it wasnt he old owner he loved. Since I am also assuming the FIL is also a older gentlemen as well, it could have been the same thing.
Using this as a scenio- like your FIL comes in the door, Rocky comes around the corner -- and for a split second thinks " OMG- ITS MY DAD!". Gets close enough to determine its not, and strikes back.. Sounds crazy- I know- but dogs have no concept really of time, and older dogs have object permanence- meaning they believe their owner is coming back. I have even heard of dogs that look for their previous owner all their lives even though their other owner has died..
HOw to remedy this- do what we did with Femka. Femka was fearful of men because of the contacts she had previously with the other owner. What we did was, knowing she would flee and hide if a man came over- only reinforcing the behavior- I just let her observe the "new man" in the room. The person was told not to make eye contact with her, as we talked about the weather etc. My father was the biggest help with this, and my step son as well. I would let her observe, and at the signs of her calming down " IT WAS COOKIE TIME".. Didnt take her long to figure out if a person came to the house, it was cookie time.. Even the mail lady.. My dogs think, as posted by the videos borzoi alarm system- that when someone comes to the house- its cookie time. This is done also for another reason specific to this breed- BORZOI'S seldom if ever bark.. And this way- their activity of pacing back and forth from window to door tells me if someone is around- verses just having one of them casually glance out a window..
Rocky may need time. I do not think its aggression towards men- as much as what he thinks would take place- " is that my dad?".. Remember- he was fine at the vets- perfect reason with some dogs not too.. My question is- if this is a true man aggression- you would see it everywhere!!! I mean everywhere- in the yard, walking in the park on a leash, etc.. I thought at one point that Hottie had suddenly developed a problem with a certain race. Even justified it by that hottie lived in a area where this race was concerning and Hottie " labled it" in his mind. Knowing you cant see your own dog well enough for a problem like this, I went outside to someone that has never met hottie- has to only look at the situation by words etc- with the last incident when Hottie was in the van.. Giving Hottie the benefit of the doubt- I then started to really notice when Hottie was put in this situation, and when it occured. Its not consistant- not always there, and the situations that it was- Hottie acted that way to anyone approaching the van putting their face in the glass suddenly of his van. Whether its that Hottie suddenly feels trapped ( the van has only a few windows so the dogs can't see all the way around the van and suddenly here is this unknown face looking at him, or that he feels trapped- it is specifically van related. Putting a racing muzzle on him at first- I took him to the park, in town, by the shopping centers- and even with the racing muzzle off- there was no sign at all this was a race related thing- but a situation related incident.
You may have the same thing with Rocky- meaning if a man is coming to the house- instead of meeting in the house - take Rocky for a walk meet this person on your front walk ways so the dog realizes out there( out of the rhelm of protecting his home or the "OMG THERES DAD" situation, then come in the house.
Now when I take hottie somewhere in the van, I no longer park near other cars, where they could be suddenly surprised at the van to reinforce behavior I do not want..

[borzoimom]

Knowing that your FIL doesnt live with you, first time over, and he didnt actually bite him at all, I think either he thought it might have been his "dad" for a second, etc. Aggression is one of those things- you do not just look at the situation, you also look at when it doesnt. There is a common thread in there- and it could be he was suddenly surpised and confused for a second, not given enough to figure this out for himself- then put in a situation where he had to make a decission. With Rockys' size- he easily could have hurt him- Rocky choose not too- and told him to back up a minute while he decided it was okay. Either meet outside of where he thinks is his- ie on the walk way for a short walk with you, the man, and rocky, or just give Rocky more time to adjust and do not let someone pet him until Rocky is ready.

[gwen]

Sorry to add one problem with another, my dog has just lately taken a dislike to my 5 yr old son, he has absolutely no problem with other children, I have another 3 and of course their friends are round often, he doesnt do it all the time but he often growls if Israel(my son) just walks past him and some times if he strokes him. He doesnt move he justs growls. I was thinking maybe cos he is my youngest and I show him the most attention maybe he is jealous - do dogs get jealous? He has made no attempt to bite him or been in no way aggressive apart from the growling? I have only had him for a few months and he is only 1yr. Should I be worried?

[Freedom]

Gwen, dogs DO get jealous.

I would watch to be certain the youngest is not teasing the dog somehow, someway. Or unintentionally hurting the dog. Like if the dog sleeps in the child's room and the child fell out of bed onto the dog? Something like that.

And start them to build a better relationship. Do you permit any treats for the dog? Work out times when the youngest greets the dog and gives a treat, to reinforce the positive. Maybe when the older children are at school or out of the house so they don't want to be involved too. You want just the 3 of you - you are in the background really, just to make sure things go OK. The youngest needs to adapt to talking to the dog in soft tones (what I've heard some parents call "in door voice,") and pet the dog and give a treat. A SMALL nibble, even a piece of kibble, so maybe work up to 2 or 3 pieces over time. Child should offer the treat on the palm of the open hand so as not to be bitten. Is your dog grabby about treats? Then use a glob of peanut butter rather than a treat. You don't want to have to step in to correct the dog, if possible.

Hope that helps. My other suggestions is that you post this as a new thread to get more viewers.

Best
Sandra

[gwen]

Thank you I will give your ideas a try.

[xcolbi]

she would flee and hide if a man came over


Colbi does the same thing. If a strange man comes to our house or if we're out for a walk and a man stops to pet her, she runs and hides behind me. We don't know anything about her previous owners, just that they abused her. We're suspecting it was a man who abused her, or at least owned her, since she's only afraid of men. She isn't scared of my Dad though. But if the man stays still or crouches down and talks to her, she'll slowly walk up to them and sniff them, but the slightest movement makes her run again. Even with my guy friends (who are 13, the same age as me) she's a little afraid. I had her out for a walk with a group of my friends and she would only go and sniff my girl friends. But after a couple minutes she was okay with everyone there.

[Canis-Lupess]

I would like to state something about the issue of jealousy.

"People commonly believe dogs attack because they feel their status in the pack is being threatened, but some experts believe this is too simplistic and has no scientific basis.

Canine psychologist Kathleen Martin says: 'It's a known problem for dogs to attack newborn babies and small children. People put it down to jealousy, but dogs don't actually get jealous – it's a human emotion.'

Animal behaviourist Peter Neville says there are three reasons why a dog may attack a baby.


Mixed signals

Firstly, the baby may be using something the dog is used to having. For example, the infant could be on a chair the dog likes to sit on.

The dog will ask the baby to move using body language, which the baby, of course, doesn't understand. When the baby doesn't move, the dog will snap.

To another dog, this snap would be the equivalent to a light slap, but to a baby with soft skin and no fur, it is a serious wound.


Hunter instinct

Secondly, the baby may be seen as prey. A baby squeaks and gurgles, waves its arms around and stares with big eyes.

This can trigger the hunting instinct in dogs, causing them to try to harm the baby. Peter says this reaction is common in dogs such as terriers.


A defensive reaction

The third reason for attacks comes later when the baby is able to crawl. It is a defensive reaction caused by the baby doing something the dog doesn't like.

The dog will again give body language warnings that mean: 'Don't poke me in the eye' or 'Don't pull my tail'. If the baby ignores these signs, the dog will lash out."

I know your child in question isn't a baby but it's the part about jealousy that is important. If you start giving your dog more attention yourself to try and curb what you believe is jealousy, you are likely to make him even more aggressive towards the child so it is potentially dangerous to believe he is jealous in the way that humans get jealous. I have read about other cases where grandparents thought their dog was jealous of the grandchild and tried to give the dog more attention. That just made the dog even worse but it was funny how the dog was only like this when at the grandparents house...it's home. When the grandparents visited the house of their daughter, the mother of the child, the dog got along fine with the child there. If it was down to jealousy, the dog would feel this no matter where he was, the fact he was only like this when in his own home proved it was not jealousy like what humans experience.

I agree that your child should start having more to do with the dog such as being the one to feed him and such. Teach the child to ask the dog to sit or give a paw before he is allowed to have his food or treats but always supervise. Never leave them alone even for a second but try not to speak or get involved and don't speak to the dog, only the child.
If the child wants to stroke the dog, ask him to call the dog over to him and then give him a gentle stroke and maybe a treat too. Instruct the child not to approach the dog to stroke him. If the dog doesn't come to him when he calls him over, it maybe that he just doesn't feel like being fussed and the child should not approach him. This way, the dog knows that he isn't under pressure and that if he wants to avoid the child for any reason, he can just stay away. This will have a calming affect on him and he'll learn to trust the child more. It's about mutual respect.

See if you can graduate to letting the child take him around the garden on his leash and teach him to do tricks and such for treat rewards. This will help build the relationship between them but work on it slowly and only get the child to do things the dog can't really act aggressively towards first such as the child being the only one allowed to give the dog his food and that the dog must obey a command from the child in order to get it.

During this time, if at all possible, nobody else should give the dog his food, only this child.

When you see good improvements, teach the child how to groom the dog. Just a few gentle strokes with a soft brush at first and graduating to a full groom as the relationship gets better. Again, a treat reward for standing still and allowing it will convince the dog that it is a pleasant situation and always make sure the child remains gentle with the brush and not inflict any pain. If the dog has a longer coat that may get a lug in it, the child should ask you for assistance in getting it out. Even if the dog is really short coated, daily grooming is always good.

[critter crazy]

Knowing that your FIL doesnt live with you, first time over, and he didnt actually bite him at all, I think either he thought it might have been his "dad" for a second, etc. Aggression is one of those things- you do not just look at the situation, you also look at when it doesnt. There is a common thread in there- and it could be he was suddenly surpised and confused for a second, not given enough to figure this out for himself- then put in a situation where he had to make a decission. With Rockys' size- he easily could have hurt him- Rocky choose not too- and told him to back up a minute while he decided it was okay. Either meet outside of where he thinks is his- ie on the walk way for a short walk with you, the man, and rocky, or just give Rocky more time to adjust and do not let someone pet him until Rocky is ready.
I appreciate your insight. we are just going to be very careful about male strangers coming to the home. Knowing someone is coming is the easier part, as we can do the walk thing to make things asier. He has met males outside of the home, and done very well. The problem is Unexpected visitors< not that we get many of those, but they are bound to show up! Hopefully nothing mroe than a door to door salseman!:D

[borzoimom]

well- salesmen are good treats.. lol.. Just until Rocky understands his dad is gone and people have entered by your permission. As I said- if he meant to hurt your FIL, that would have been very easy to do... very easy..

[borzoimom]

I appreciate your insight. we are just going to be very careful about male strangers coming to the home. Knowing someone is coming is the easier part, as we can do the walk thing to make things asier. He has met males outside of the home, and done very well. The problem is Unexpected visitors< not that we get many of those, but they are bound to show up! Hopefully nothing mroe than a door to door salseman!:D
If Rocky were actually " man aggressive"- it would show up alllll the time.. It could even be that like Hottie, who defends "his van" and mom is not there- but if I open the door he is fine- if its defending the house without introduction could be the trigger. I really do not see that case either really. You said you were coming up behind him as he entered- Rocky put himself between you and him not knowing,.
A saint is a huge dog- and not prone to aggression normally- .. I am glad you are going to try the walks- then he has no question you allowed this person to enter the house..

[Laura's Babies]

When my daughter Rie got adopted by her dog Sparkey, he was scared to death of men and cowarded everytime once came around him. She was sure some male has abused him so he was afraid of all men.

Try to have those first time meetings with them men, TREAT time! Have the MEN give the dog several treats while talking to him.. It's worth a try!

[K9soul]

Fear/suspicion towards men is not really an uncommon thing, and it isn't always due to abuse. Tasha is very fearful and suspicious of any man she's not really familiar with and she has never been abused by a man. When I got Raven, she was a bit more shy and backed away from bigger men at first, but I socialized the heck out of her and she's fine now with all people. As my vet stated when we talked about it, men are often bigger, deeper voiced, and just a more "threatening" presence to a dog than women often are. Women are just usually not as threatening, they often have a smaller stature, softer voices, and body language that is more reassuring and inviting to a dog when meeting a stranger. Tasha warms up to women much, MUCH faster than to men. I'd have FIL ignore him totally when he comes over for now. No eye contact, no talking to him, not even offering his hand. When he sits down to relax and if Rocky approaches him then, he can probably nonchalantly greet him then after that, while he's in that less threatening/relaxed position. Of course none of us are there to actually witness the behavior so a consultation with a behaviorist if you find this concerning would be a good idea. Just my 2 cents.

[critter crazy]

Well Rocky is doing great! Since the incident he has met many men, outside and has done just fine, he does seem a little leary at first, but does warm up quite quickly. Unfortunately my FIL has yet to come back over to see how Rocky reacts to him, I think he is a little scared!(cant realy blame him) But things are going good, and I feel so much better!

[Lori Jordan]

Sorry to hear this,It is odd to hear a St Bernard Biting,I'm glad things have gotten better,He could have moved fast and startled Rocky?

[critter crazy]

I think that he could have moved fast, and startled rocky, just not sure. Rocky is the protective type, especially of me. I am just glad to see preogress! Yesterday for instance, we went out on a walk, and noticed that my Neighbor, and two of his buddies were out side, so we walked over, explained the situation to them, and one at a time, they walked over, Rocky sniffed them, looked back at me, and then went in for pets! He was such a good boy! You could tell he was unsure at first, but after i told him it was okay, he was okay. Once it warms up more, we will begin to go to the local park, so he can interact with more people.

[borzoimom]

When he does come- remember Rocky doesnt know him, so treat your FIL like you did the others- outside in a walk.