Staffs are they all vicious???

[gwen]

I have only had my dog for a short time so dog behaviour hasnt been on top of my list. But since I got my alsation cross, I take him for lots of walks, he isnt very good with other dogs he only wants to play but he isnt a very good judge of dogs who want to play and those who dont, so I always keep him on his lead when other dogs are about. But I have noticed that whenever we come across a 'staff' (staffordshire terrier) they all seem super aggressive and on sunday while out with my children we saw one ravage a swan. It was terrifying the owner and a passer by had to beat the dog into submission before it would let go of the poor swan. I know people say its not the dog but the owner, but surely some dogs have a preposition for viciousness.??

[DrKym]

I have only had my dog for a short time so dog behaviour hasnt been on top of my list. But since I got my alsation cross, I take him for lots of walks, he isnt very good with other dogs he only wants to play but he isnt a very good judge of dogs who want to play and those who dont, so I always keep him on his lead when other dogs are about. But I have noticed that whenever we come across a 'staff' (staffordshire terrier) they all seem super aggressive and on sunday while out with my children we saw one ravage a swan. It was terrifying the owner and a passer by had to beat the dog into submission before it would let go of the poor swan. I know people say its not the dog but the owner, but surely some dogs have a preposition for viciousness.??


Being as I am short on patience on this subject.
1) there are several threads devoted to Staffies and Pits in general, about their disposition, behaviour, and the long standing circle argument of nurture vs nature.

2) If you own a dog , then behaviour should have been one of the first things you researched. To be a responsible owner to your animal, and to be a responsible part of the community with your dog.

3) The fact that a passerby "beat" a dog into submission is in itself gut wrenching. What is worse is that the dogs' owner had no control over a very powerful animal.That is insane.

4) All dogs have the predisposition to bite. A preposition is a grammatical term. Any dog will bite. Most choose not to. Some breeds have been bred to bite for the work we required of them, not just Staffies, or Pits for that matter. This should be taken into account when choosing a breed.

5) No where in your thread is it mentioned what happened to the abusive bystander, the ignorant owner or the injured swan.

My thoughts, the bystander should have been arrested for abuse. The owner should be banned from owning anything that doesn't come with batteries from the dept. store. The SPCA should have been contacted to take custody of the dog and the Swan

Kym

[kittycats_delight]

It was terrifying the owner and a passer by had to beat the dog into submission before it would let go of the poor swan.

This is the very reason any of these dogs are aggressive.

I notice you say the poor swan but what about the porr dog? It is not the dogs fault if he is aggressive....you have no idea what this dog has gone through. If he is attacking another animals it is because he was 9 chances out of 10 taught to do so.

And why a passerby laid his hands on someone elses dog is beyond me. I mean if it was my dog that someone else even swatted I would rip him a new one. The owner is an absolute moron. You don't beat an animal period. They should have both been arrested and they animals swan and dog should have gone when they could be looked after.

I really hate to even think about what kind of home life this poor dog has considering his owner was beating him (even if by your ideal it was for a reasonable thing...I don't agree) in public. God what is wrong with people that they are such idiots and why is it that people keep stereotyping these amazing animals.


This is from a site that gives a discription of the staffie and this is a staffie's temperment description.

The American Staffordshire Terrier is a happy, outgoing, stable, and confident dog. Gentle and loving towards people. Good-natured, amusing, extremely loyal and affectionate family pet. It is good with children and adults. Almost always obedient, this dog wants nothing more then to please its master. It is an extremely courageous and intelligent guard dog that is very full of life. Over the past 50 years, careful breeding has produced this friendly, trustworthy, dog who is an especially good dog for children. Courageous and a persistent fighter if provoked. Highly protective of his owners and the owner's property, it will fight an enemy to the death if the enemy traps the dog in a corner and threatens its loved ones. This breed has a very high tolerance for pain. Some un-socialized Staffs may be dog aggressive. Socialize very thoroughly when young to curve any dog aggressive tendencies. This breed can be difficult to housebreak. It has given outstanding results as a guardian of property, but is at the same time esteemed as a companion dog. When properly trained and socialized, the Staff makes a great family companion. This breed is not for the passive owner who does not understand that all dogs have an instinct to have a pack order.

[wolfsoul]

I'm sorry but if MY dog was attacking and killing something, I sure as heck would be beating the heck out of it trying to make it let go. When my neighbor's dog attacked (and killed) my cat, my mom was beating it sensless in the head with a 2X4 -- didn't even phase the dog, mind you, but I assure you the owners didn't care either way -- my mom was in her right to beat that dog to make it let go of my cat, who later died from the injuries the dog caused anyways. What would you do if your dog had hold of a child? Stand there and do nothing? What would you have done in the same situation?

As for the original question, staffies are terriers -- terriers were bred to kill small animals -- this means that they have a higher prey drive than alot of breeds. Owners need to do their research and understand that these dogs should not be let offleash because something may set it into drive. Dogs are set into drive by different things -- for terriers, it is often the movement of a different animal. Staffies, just like other terriers, can have dominance issues, making them more prone to dog aggression --but this is all in the hands of the owner and breeder. If the owner trains the dog properly, and the dog came from a breeder with very well-tempered dogs and lines, these problems should not arise. Staffies unfortunatly have a bad reputation -- they are powerful dogs that can be dangerous in the wrong hands, and it is very sad that the wrong hands are often where these dogs end up. In the right hands, these are wonderful, freindly family dogs who love children and get along well with everyone.

[angelbow20]

I'm sorry but if MY dog was attacking and killing something, I sure as heck would be beating the heck out of it trying to make it let go. When my neighbor's dog attacked (and killed) my cat, my mom was beating it sensless in the head with a 2X4 -- didn't even phase the dog, mind you, but I assure you the owners didn't care either way -- my mom was in her right to beat that dog to make it let go of my cat, who later died from the injuries the dog caused anyways. What would you do if your dog had hold of a child? Stand there and do nothing? What would you have done in the same situation?

As for the original question, staffies are terriers -- terriers were bred to kill small animals -- this means that they have a higher prey drive than alot of breeds. Owners need to do their research and understand that these dogs should not be let offleash because something may set it into drive. Dogs are set into drive by different things -- for terriers, it is often the movement of a different animal. Staffies, just like other terriers, can have dominance issues, making them more prone to dog aggression --but this is all in the hands of the owner and breeder. If the owner trains the dog properly, and the dog came from a breeder with very well-tempered dogs and lines, these problems should not arise. Staffies unfortunatly have a bad reputation -- they are powerful dogs that can be dangerous in the wrong hands, and it is very sad that the wrong hands are often where these dogs end up. In the right hands, these are wonderful, freindly family dogs who love children and get along well with everyone.


I have to agree.... I couldnt just stand there if a dog was killing another animal or child. the lady that lives down the street from me has a pitbull and last summer she walked it by my house and the people who live across from us had there dog tied out in there own yard and the pitbull got loose from the lady and ripped the other poor dogs ear off!!! the dog tied in its yard didnt even do anything wrong!!! thank god the owners beat the ladies dog until it got of there dog or they would have had a dead dog they pitbull never even got hurt by them hitting him but eventually let the poor lab mix dog go., this pitbull has attacked many people also from what I know and they still have it. its actually really scary and the lady has 2 of them, she shouldnt have any animals but the cops know about these dogs as well as the aspca and still let her have them.

[gwen]

I am really suprised at some responses, my point was that this dog was so savagely attacking this poor innocent swan who was doing nothing more than sitting by the bank of the river, it was so full of blood lust that the only way to save the swan was to beat it, what would you have done in that situation? The owner was distraught that his dog could do such a thing, he seemed like a nice bloke only seconds before he and the dog were playing fetch, and this is my question are these dogs so intrinsically vicious that no matter what, there true instinct will always come out? (The police were called as in England swans are the Queens property so I am sure that it was given medical attention.)

[critter crazy]

I am really suprised at some responses, my point was that this dog was so savagely attacking this poor innocent swan who was doing nothing more than sitting by the bank of the river, it was so full of blood lust that the only way to save the swan was to beat it, what would you have done in that situation? The owner was distraught that his dog could do such a thing, he seemed like a nice bloke only seconds before he and the dog were playing fetch, and this is my question are these dogs so intrinsically vicious that no matter what, there true instinct will always come out? (The police were called as in England swans are the Queens property so I am sure that it was given medical attention.)

The point is, the guy obviously did not have proper control of his dog! Any dog can have a prey drive, that this dog obviously has. If it had been a dalmation, would you come to the same conclusion, that this dog was intrinsically vicious? It is a dog! sometimes they attack or chase prey! that is why we as owners need to have total control.

[luvofallhorses]

Staffs are such sweet dogs! We have an awesome amstaff mix at the shelter where I volunteer named Bocephus.

http://www.montanapets.org/bas/pictures/07-D0481.jpg
http://www.montanapets.org/bas/pictures/07-D0481.html

IMO that owner shouldn't have been beating that dog over the swan. It's called instinct and it's not the dog's fault it has a high prey drive. however, I am NOT saying I'd let my dog kill any animal whether it's a swan or a squirrel. there are better ways of handling the situation than beating YOUR dog to death if the dog attacks another animal. there is special pepper spray for dogs for that reason. better than beating the living hell out of the dog IMO. I would never beat my dogs over that, I would use the pepper spray that they make for dogs. I cannot believe a few of you would beat your dog if the dog attacked an animal. :(

[DrKym]

I am really suprised at some responses, my point was that this dog was so savagely attacking this poor innocent swan who was doing nothing more than sitting by the bank of the river, it was so full of blood lust that the only way to save the swan was to beat it, what would you have done in that situation? The owner was distraught that his dog could do such a thing, he seemed like a nice bloke only seconds before he and the dog were playing fetch, and this is my question are these dogs so intrinsically vicious that no matter what, there true instinct will always come out? (The police were called as in England swans are the Queens property so I am sure that it was given medical attention.)
See my previous post.

The owner had no business having any animal not under control, off or on lead.

I have had a few of my dogs over the years react to other animals, A rottie that went after a chicken ...with the intent to shred it. It was dropped immediatley on command. Did the chicken live? as far as I know yes, it was minus a wing though and I paid the vet bills for it. I did not have to beat my dog, nor did it ever occur to me to do so.

A dane that decided the squirell was way more fun to shake than chase, again, it was released on command.

Maybe it is me but I feel if you intend to own a powerful animal, and in my book that is any animal, your responsibility is to teach, train, reinforce and be responsible for it. This owner clearly missed on a few of those.

It isn't the breeds per se, it is the ignorance of the breeds.

You state this animal was full of "blood lust", that is a trait that is held by trained animals taught to kill and to keep at that endeavour against all odds.
Mayhap, this owner wasn't the nice bloke he appears?

In any event, the answers you seek are on several threads here. I will reiterate that all dogs can bite. Some are bred to, and sadly many are taught to for the wrong purposes.

[gwen]

Maybe its me but I dont understand why the dogs life is of more value than the swan. Isnt it possible that with all the best intentions and good training some creatures arent meant to be pets. I understand that if I had a lion as a pet and at some point it attacked someone, it could be said it is just its nature. So why couldnt that be true of these terrier type dogs if it is there nature then surely it is irresponsible to own such dogs. It was a swan this time but what if it was a child.

[gwen]

The dog was fine by the way after he spat out the swans feathers the owner put him on his lead and tied him to a post.

[DrKym]

Maybe its me but I dont understand why the dogs life is of more value than the swan. Isnt it possible that with all the best intentions and good training some creatures arent meant to be pets. I understand that if I had a lion as a pet and at some point it attacked someone, it could be said it is just its nature. So why couldnt that be true of these terrier type dogs if it is there nature then surely it is irresponsible to own such dogs. It was a swan this time but what if it was a child.


I am sorry, do you not read?

:confused:

[GreyhoundGirl]

tied him to a post.

That might be part of the reason he's aggresive... :(

[gwen]

Gosh!!! The man tied the dog to the post so he could tend to the swan that had been savaged by the dog. And I imagine so the dog couldnt attack any one else.

[Kalei]

Maybe its me but I dont understand why the dogs life is of more value than the swan. Isnt it possible that with all the best intentions and good training some creatures arent meant to be pets. I understand that if I had a lion as a pet and at some point it attacked someone, it could be said it is just its nature. So why couldnt that be true of these terrier type dogs if it is there nature then surely it is irresponsible to own such dogs. It was a swan this time but what if it was a child.

Yes the certain breed could have a higher prey drive, but if it is brought up properly and controlled then it can turn out to be a nice dog that would never be aggressive. It all depends on how well the owner brings up a dog. Any breed can be aggressive if an owner looks after it poorly or teaches it to kill, ecspecially breeds that already have a naturally higher prey drive, but with the right owner, any breed can be a sweet, non-aggressive dog.:)

[wolfsoul]

there is special pepper spray for dogs for that reason. better than beating the living hell out of the dog IMO. I would never beat my dogs over that, I would use the pepper spray that they make for dogs. I cannot believe a few of you would beat your dog if the dog attacked an animal. :(
You carry pepper spray? How many people out there carry pepper spray in the case that their dog attack someone or something? As was said, the owner didn't know his dog would attack anything. Even if your dog is the nicest dog in the world, it is still an animal with feelings, emotion, and reactions -- it still has the ability, potential, and physical traits that allow it to kill something. Does that mean we should all carry pepper spray? We didn't have pepper spray when my neighbor's dog killed my cat. What was our other option? If a dog was attacking your child, and you didn't have pepper spray, what would you do? Not only that --but pepper spray has been known to cause sudden death. I would hate to be responsible for both the death or serious injuries to both the dog in question as well as the attackee.

I completely agree that the dog should not have been offleash. However, I find it much easier said than done to teach a dog to stop killing whatever is in it's mouth. The problem with "calling a dog off" is that when you have a particularily drivey dog, in drive, it may or may not listen. Ask Glacier how easy it is to call a Siberian husky off small prey. 99% impossible. It is one thing to teach a normal dog to drop a ball or a stick. It is a completely different thing to command a dog to drop whatever it is killing when it is in drive mode. I have drivey dogs, I've trained drivey dogs -- I have been bitten to the point of blood and bruises from otherwise completely friendly animals, all because they were in drive and I was preventing them from doing what they wanted to do.

[luvofallhorses]

I am confused. nobody said the dog's life was more valuable than the swan ..
they both are valuable but swans have never been pets and will never be pets. We never did compare the swan to a child either. it'd be different if it were a child, I am sure. but I have never been in the situation where my dogs have bit a child, fortunately and I hope that doesn't happen.
By you asking if ALL staffs are vicious, NO they are not. some can be just like ANY dog but that seriously depends how they are treated and raised.

and no, wolfsoul I don't carry pepper spray.. I was just saying it's more humane. I carry a stick when I walk my dogs to protect both of us. I knew this thread was going to be a huge debate yet again and I am sick of it. :rolleyes:

[gwen]

I'm not knocking staffies as such as with humans you get good and bad, I was just asking thee question if its more likely in these type of breeds thats all.

[Kalei]

That might be part of the reason he's aggresive... :(

I think what GreyhoundGirl means is that you might not know that the owner keeps the dog tied up outside all the time of its life. And a chained dog is never going to be completely nice and tame.

[luvofallhorses]

some staffs are animal aggressive, but that just depends on the dog and they aren't supposed to be human aggressive at all. you aren't supposed to show them any aggression whatsoever.

[wolfsoul]

So why couldnt that be true of these terrier type dogs if it is there nature then surely it is irresponsible to own such dogs.
Terriers are not the problem -- it's people owning them that do not understand the breeds. Terriers encompass hundreds of different breeds. Many many breeds have high prey drives -- basically all of the Northern breeds (huskies, malamutes, etc), dogs bred specifically for schutzhund (usually line-based -- Belgian shepherds, dutch shepherds, etc), hunting and catching breeds (catahoulas, curs, etc). If you wanted to ban every breed known for it's drive, you'd eradicate most of the dog population.

[luvofallhorses]

I agree with wolfsoul. It just depends on the dog, NOT the breed itsself.

[wolfsoul]

I was just saying it's more humane.
I completely understand, it does sound more safe -- however my friend's aunt went blind after having pepper spray in her eyes. It isn't at all what it's cracked up to be, and it's coming close to being banned since it's caused so many deaths. :eek:

[luvofallhorses]

I completely understand, it does sound more safe -- however my friend's aunt went blind after having pepper spray in her eyes. It isn't at all what it's cracked up to be, and it's coming close to being banned since it's caused so many deaths. :eek:

I haven't ever had to use it and hope I don't have to. but I know of an animal control officer that carries it just incase he gets attacked by a dog or cat.

[gwen]

As I said in the begining I have only had my dog for a couple of months so the world of dogs is all new to me, all I can comment on is what I have seen it was a very scary thing to witness first hand and my children were with me and my 7 yr old daughter especially was very shaken by the incident.

[Miss Z]

Gwen, I see that you are also a member of the UK here. I suppose you heard on the news a while back about the pit bull that mauled and killed a little girl near Wigan? Now, I won't delve into that crisis, but I'm sure you heard about it. Since then, pitties and 'pit-bull type dogs' have been sufferring great 'discrimination', if you will.

I don't know how much you know about the situation in much of the USA, but in many states these dogs are banned because of unfair prejudice. True, they were designed as fighting dogs and are shaped for it, but they also have a brain which can be moulded by firm and caring hands. Think of it this way, a baby up for adoption could be placed in one of two homes. One home is a small cottage in the countryside with a middle-class family who have always wanted children and have their best interests at heart. The other are a young couple with a criminal record, living in a dodgy part of town and have an unstable relationship. Either of those homes can shape the SAME child's mind, purely on the way they bring it up. The same goes for dogs.

This prejudice against pit bull type dogs is spreading fast and soon it won't be long before pits are put down on the streets here. I don't know if you watched much news coverage of the incident I mentioned above, but I saw one report on ITV of police removing pit bull dogs from a home, claiming them to be vicious and a public risk. Now, on that report, I saw not one 'dangerous' dog. I saw men dragging out dogs on their knees. I saw men hoisting dogs into carriers and them peering out as if to say 'what did I do?'. No, I did not see vicious dogs, I saw SCARED dogs.

In this situation, as others have said, the beating and the tying up reflect the attitude of this owner. If he is not capable of training a strong dog to heel when commanded he should get a goldfish.

You seem a nice person, and I would just like to warn you that you will meet much resistance to any stereo-typing of pit-bull type dogs. We have many pit bull lovers here and it breaks their hearts everytime they see a thread like this. Put it down to the fact all dogs have different temperaments and require different handling, but all are most definitely not born to kill.

[critter crazy]

Maybe its me but I dont understand why the dogs life is of more value than the swan. Isnt it possible that with all the best intentions and good training some creatures arent meant to be pets. I understand that if I had a lion as a pet and at some point it attacked someone, it could be said it is just its nature. So why couldnt that be true of these terrier type dogs if it is there nature then surely it is irresponsible to own such dogs. It was a swan this time but what if it was a child.
no one was saying that the swans life was less valuable than the dogs, I own chickens and ducks,a nd it pains me to hear that a swan got attacked by a dog. All we are trying to say is that the owner obviously was neglectful by allowing the dog off leash. He should have had better control. and not all staffies are like that! you cannot assume the nature of a whole breed, based on the behavior of one. and we dont even know why the dog attacked. we dont even know if the dog had ever attacked before. If the dog had attacked any type of animal before than the owner was defionitely at fault here.

[DrKym]

Ask Glacier how easy it is to call a Siberian husky off small prey. 99% impossible.


I am pretty certain that Glacier has researched her breed, to the point of being an expert, therefore wouldn't have had her dog off lead in a park to begin with.................I would also think that any other Husky owner would agree that small prey drive is high in the breed. Different between individuals, but a trait to consider nonetheless.

Can we say the same of the nice bloke? Or for that matter Gwen who has had her question answered several ways several times in this thread alone.

What she wants to hear is that this breed is awful.What she wants to hear is that it could have been a child. What she wants to hear is that it is the NATURE of the animal.

My own dogs are a breed that can have a high prey drive. Therefore I am constantly working with them to drop anything on command. Including their dinner.

Again I urge this person to read her own thread, and understand that her answers have been given.

As for the lion comment, if they were also a domesticated specie, then your parralel holds water, as they are not, it doesn't

[gwen]

Thanks Miss Z, yes I have seen all the coverage about that, I know that any breed of dog can 'turn' I remember when there was a big deal made about rotweilers(spelling?) My point was that almost without exception all the staffs and english bull terriers I have came across seem to be very aggressive. I guess it could be that in england anyway the type of person that would want this type of dog want it for that very purpose and dont encurage all the positive points in this dog. Which is a whole other debat I guess.

[gwen]

Dr Goodnow, I dont know so I am just askin the question, is not allowed to hear all opinions, while you may have valid views they are not the only views, if anything I am in agreement with many of your points, just not totally convinced which is my perogative.

[wolfsoul]

I am pretty certain that Glacier has researched her breed, to the point of being an expert, therefore wouldn't have had her dog off lead in a park to begin with.................I would also think that any other Husky owner would agree that small prey drive is high in the breed. Different between individuals, but a trait to consider nonetheless.

No, but that doesn't stop a stray cat from running into her yard. What would she do then? My point was, whether or not the dog is offleash or in it's own backyard, it is silly to say you wouldn't physically try to remove your dog in any way possible if it was killing something.

[DrKym]

No, but that doesn't stop a stray cat from running into her yard. What would she do then? My point was, whether or not the dog is offleash or in it's own backyard, it is silly to say you wouldn't physically try to remove your dog in any way possible if it was killing something.

Apples and Oranges, this animal was not in it's territory, it was off lead in a public area.

[Miss Z]

I guess it could be that in england anyway the type of person that would want this type of dog want it for that very purpose and dont encurage all the positive points in this dog. Which is a whole other debat I guess.

Yes, I believe so. Most of the bull terrier and pit-bull type dogs I've come across are owned by families in unstable relationships and on all sorts of income-related bonuses, due to a marriage breakdown here and a job loss there. Now I'm not one to be stereotypical but that is true to what I have generally seen.

It's also now widely accepted that the pit bull is the official 'chav' dog, and illegal dog fighting for profit for drugs is practiced far more often than first anticipated, or so I've been told.

I'm sure that this perception isn't just confined to the UK but across most of the developed world, and I expect the prejudice has sprung as much from the people that own them as the dogs themselves!

[wolf_Q]

Prey drive and human aggression are NOT the same thing. Just because a dog would attack a swan does not in any way mean the dog would attack a human.

I have siberian huskies. They would love to eat any small critter/bird/etc. they could get to, but I do not let them off leash and give them the chance. They are also often around small children and are perfectly fine with them.

The dog definitely should not have been off leash. No, all staffies are not vicious, most of the attacks you hear about involve dogs trained for fighting, or simply left intact and neglected, they need proper socialization and training. I do believe they have a higher tendency (as well as several other breeds) to be dog aggressive and they require an experienced owner.

[DrKym]

Prey drive and human aggression are NOT the same thing. Just because a dog would attack a swan does not in any way mean the dog would attack a human.

I have siberian huskies. They would love to eat any small critter/bird/etc. they could get to, but I do not let them off leash and give them the chance. They are also often around small children and are perfectly fine with them.

The dog definitely should not have been off leash. No, all staffies are not vicious, most of the attacks you hear about involve dogs trained for fighting, or simply left intact and neglected, they need proper socialization and training. I do believe they have a higher tendency (as well as several other breeds) to be dog aggressive and they require an experienced owner.

Well said and exactly the same point I keep going back to on this thread.

[wolfsoul]

Apples and Oranges, this animal was not in it's territory, it was off lead in a public area.

I agree -- it was put into a setting where bad things were more likely to happen, and I do not condone letting an animal offleash in a high-traffic area or an area where it may be a danger to animals -- but I still believe that the owner physically trying to remove the dog's grasp on the was still justified, as there are few other options short of tranquilizing or shooting the dog right there to make it let go of the animal. Since the dog was playing fetch we can only assume it had already been taught a release command -- however a dog in prey drive mode may be tuned off to outside distractions. I'm not at all saying the owner was a good owner and should be awarded Staffordshire bull terrier owner of the year award -- maybe my opinions are irrelevant in this case -- What I am saying is that if my dog was attacking something, I would pick up it's back legs, and if that didn't work, I'd be beating it with whatever object I could find. And this could happen in my own back yard, as it did with my cat and the neighbor's dog. Different, more innocent setting, but the same consequences, and I would hate to be looked badly upon for attacking my dog rather than standing there yelling. Basically what everyone is saying is that my mom was a horrible person for beating my neighbor's dog with a 2X4 while it had my cat in it's mouth, shaking her and killing her.

[wolfsoul]

Prey drive and human aggression are NOT the same thing. Just because a dog would attack a swan does not in any way mean the dog would attack a human.

I completely agree, but there is definatly a fine line between the two. Prey drive is often stimulated by a moving/running creature. When a chase is instilled, prey drive can have the same affect in a completely different manner than human aggression with the same result. Candy was a wonderful dog, and she had alot of prey drive. It was a good thing for us because we use toys as reinforcement, and she had a strong drive to chase them (moving/running item). However, the reason she came to me and did not stay with Marla, is that running children would also set her off, and she would chase the children and grab on to them when they ran. It could have been trained away, but it does show the correlation between prey drive and actually hurting a human.The dog does not understand that it is a human. It sees something, chases it, and sometimes grabs on. It is not the dog's fault, the dog should have been trained, but it shows a strong connection between the two.

Prey drive is the #1 thing that trainers look for in a protection dog. A schutzhund dog without prey drive is not a schutzhund dog at all. And yes, these dogs are trained to attack humans. Just because it is called prey drive, and not human drive, does not mean it is restricted to only one thing. Many schutzhund dogs are wonderful with the family cats.

[DrKym]

I agree -- it was put into a setting where bad things were more likely to happen, and I do not condone letting an animal offleash in a high-traffic area or an area where it may be a danger to animals -- but I still believe that the owner physically trying to remove the dog's grasp on the was still justified, as there are few other options short of tranquilizing or shooting the dog right there to make it let go of the animal. Since the dog was playing fetch we can only assume it had already been taught a release command -- however a dog in prey drive mode may be tuned off to outside distractions. I'm not at all saying the owner was a good owner and should be awarded Staffordshire bull terrier owner of the year award -- maybe my opinions are irrelevant in this case -- What I am saying is that if my dog was attacking something, I would pick up it's back legs, and if that didn't work, I'd be beating it with whatever object I could find. And this could happen in my own back yard, as it did with my cat and the neighbor's dog. Different, more innocent setting, but the same consequences, and I would hate to be looked badly upon for attacking my dog rather than standing there yelling. Basically what everyone is saying is that my mom was a horrible person for beating my neighbor's dog with a 2X4 while it had my cat in it's mouth, shaking her and killing her.


Jordan,

Let me clarify my point, I understand that your cat was attacked, I understand that your neighbors dog did this. I understand your mothers desire to protect her childs pet. I do not agree with beating the animal.
In the scenario that Gwen brought up, it was NOT the owner that was beating the animal, as a matter of fact, the owner stood by, while a passerby" beat the dog into submission".

In that instance, if the animal had been taught commands to drop, or to release and was not heeding them as you stated is a possibility, would it not stand to reason that you would place its' lead back on? To gain physical control in order to gain mental control?

Would it not have been incumbent upon this man to call for assistance for the animal mauled?

Other facts of poor ownership aside. The fact remains that again, a breed will suffer for the ignorance and arrogance of his master.

As for your cat, I am truly sorry for your loss. I am sorrier that the whole situation happened, especially for the dog that was beaten with 2x4. That is abuse. I understand the extenuating circumstances. As for Glacier and her cat issue, it was horrifying for her also. Does that mean her breed or your neighbors breed are all born awful? No. Does it mean that instead of a spray people should instead carry bludgeoning tools? Or that we are all at the mercy of passerby willing to beat our dogs, that we failed to train properly?
I think not.

[angelbow20]

Dogs have prey drives for small animals but that doesnt ever mean they wont go after a little kid.. I was bitten by a dog when I was 3 because the dog saw me running and attacked me for no reason, I was in my yard playing and he was in another yard with his owner. so I think even if you think your dohg wouldnt hurt alittle kid dont always be so sure if its a high prey driven dog. the dog that bit me was a black lab and my best friend had the same thing happen to her when she was little by a golden retriever.

[Love That Collie]

You carry pepper spray? How many people out there carry pepper spray in the case that their dog attack someone or something? As was said, the owner didn't know his dog would attack anything. Even if your problem with "calling a dog off" is that when you have a particularily drivey dog, in drive, it may or may not listen. they were in drive and I was preventing them from doing what they wanted to do.

I don't fool with pepper spray but that's not to say that it probably wouldn't do the job nine times out of ten but my luck I'd be the tenth example around here, we have a loose dog problem in our county and with dogs NOT being contained properly even on their own property, vicious or not........I carry Mace tear gas, IT does the job and I have used it.

[wolfsoul]

.

As for your cat, I am truly sorry for your loss. I am sorrier that the whole situation happened, especially for the dog that was beaten with 2x4. That is abuse. I understand the extenuating circumstances. As for Glacier and her cat issue, it was horrifying for her also. Does that mean her breed or your neighbors breed are all born awful? No. Does it mean that instead of a spray people should instead carry bludgeoning tools? Or that we are all at the mercy of passerby willing to beat our dogs, that we failed to train properly?
I think not.
Thank you, I am sorry for the loss of my cat as well. I just can't change my opinion that it is by far worse abuse to let an animal kill something than to beat it to make it stop. This was in a fenced yard, no leash available, and the owners screaming at the dog, trying to call it off. I do not think this dog was born awful -- I loved that dog and still do love that dog. He is a great dog. He was a great playmate for my female dog, he was a wonderful protector, and great with kids. My cat was the first and only cat he had killed. It certainly was not my cat's or my mother's fault that the dog had a high prey drive, or had not been trained to control his prey drive. That was all in hidsight. We wouldn't be watching that dog kill my cat, and thinking in hindsight "guess the dog should have been trained better or this wouldn't have happened, but we can't hurt the dog, so we'll just have to let the cat die since nothing else will stop it." They couldn't grab hold of his back legs. What else could have been done..It is easy to think in hindsight when it is all said and done. But in the now, when it's happening, you just can't point fingers. You do everything and anything you can to save your baby. I would have done the same thing.

[CathyBogart]

I own a very driven terrier-type dog and I would never be stupid enough to let him off leash in an area where, say....a squirrel might run by. It would be sheer idiocy on my part to do something like that, to put him a position where he is bound to fail.

When I've seen dogs get into it at the park, the best solution I've seen (if the owners don't have control) is to grab them by their hand legs and drag them away from the action. Sure works better that trying to BEAT a dog into submission.

No, Staffs are not all aggressive, and almost never are they "vicious". Any breed can bite, maim, or kill a person.

[Love That Collie]

Terriers are not the problem -- it's people owning them that do not understand the breeds. Terriers encompass hundreds of different breeds. Many many breeds have high prey drives -- basically all of the Northern breeds (huskies, malamutes, etc), dogs bred specifically for schutzhund (usually line-based -- Belgian shepherds, dutch shepherds, etc), hunting and catching breeds (catahoulas, curs, etc). If you wanted to ban every breed known for it's drive, you'd eradicate most of the dog population.

This is for the most part true. But the Staff being a terrier breed is PART of it's problem. Terriers are tenacious, yes, but most of the other terrier breeds cannot inflict the harm/damage in a bite that a Pit breed can. That is biggest problem that society has with this. For example, I really would be hard pressed to think that, for instance a Jack Russell Terrier or say a Scottish Terrier would even inflict a minute amount of damage on that Swan that a Pit breed could or would or did in this case.

[borzoimom]

My breed will chase things as well- and also give up with my pressence. The problem I see over and over is that you can NOT GET A STAFFY OFF OF ANY ATTACK.. Once gone- completeing the battle is all that exists in the mind.. " FINISH IT" is there.. Some say they are being bred to be less aggressive dogs- but I can tell you- genetics takes a long time...

[DrKym]

This is for the most part true. But the Staff being a terrier breed is PART of it's problem. Terriers are tenacious, yes, but most of the other terrier breeds cannot inflict the harm/damage in a bite that a Pit breed can. That is biggest problem that society has with this. For example, I really would be hard pressed to think that, for instance a Jack Russell Terrier or say a Scottish Terrier would even inflict a minute amount of damage on that Swan that a Pit breed could or would or did in this case.

Want pics of the dead ducks and geese from the neighbours JRT?

Get real! Any dog intent on killing an animal will do so, if it is not trained to release, and any owner of any breed that is specifically bred for hunting prey small or otherwise, that fails to teach is at fault.

[wolfsoul]

I think that everyone needs to realise is that in a perfect world, there would be no need for animal shelters, people would buy from reputable breeders who have wonderfully tempered dogs, people would take their dogs to obedience school, they would take the time to train their dogs properly, breed instinct is something that can be countered all of the time, and nothing bad would ever happen. But we do not live in a perfect world. People are not perfect, and thus neither are dogs. Whether certain breeds are more prone to certain behaviours than others or not, it's not a breed thing. It's the fact that nothing is perfect. All hindsight does is tell us who was at fault, and whose fault it was for creating the behaviour of the one at fault, and so on and so on and so on. There is no perfect response to an animal killing another animal. It's just as simple as that.

We each have our own ways of reacting to such a situation. If my dog attacked a swan, and wouldn't release, I would beat on my dog to get it off. I wouldn't stand there and wish I had trained my dog better. If my dog was being attacked by another dog, and I couldn't reach it's hind legs, I would be beating the other dog off of my dog. The other dog not being trained properly does not mean my dog should get killed. That is my imperfect response to a poor situation.

[Love That Collie]

Want pics of the dead ducks and geese from the neighbours JRT?

Get real! Any dog intent on killing an animal will do so, if it is not trained to release, and any owner of any breed that is specifically bred for hunting prey small or otherwise, that fails to teach is at fault.

Oh, for Gods sakes. Others were saying that terriers are driven by prey and that's true BUT it's the DAMAGE that can be and is caused due to the strength of it's (Pit) jaws. I doubt that it would have taken much "beating" to get the dog off the swan or kid or anything else HAD it been a JRT. I'll take one bite from a JRT any day as compared to a Pit.

[DrKym]

Oh, for Gods sakes. Others were saying that terriers are driven by prey and that's true BUT it's the DAMAGE that can be and is caused due to the strength of it's (Pit) jaws. I doubt that it would have taken much "beating" to get the dog off the swan or kid or anything else HAD it been a JRT. I'll take one bite from a JRT any day as compared to a Pit.

Point I made was obviously lost. This thread is not about the damage that can be inflicted, as that is an obvious thing given the size difference.
For the record, a Pits jaws have less strength PSI in a bite than a Rottweilers. This has been tested and proven. They are about equal give or take 10 pounds PSI with GSD.
Given the 3 I would rather be bitten by the pit.

[luvofallhorses]

what is PSI?

[DrKym]

Pounds per Square Inch, meaning how much pressure is actually applied in a bite per square inch of flesh.

[luvofallhorses]

oh okay, thanks for the explination! :) I just haven't heard that term used before.

[Love That Collie]

Point I made was obviously lost. This thread is not about the damage that can be inflicted, as that is an obvious thing given the size difference.
For the record, a Pits jaws have less strength PSI in a bite than a Rottweilers. This has been tested and proven. They are about equal give or take 10 pounds PSI with GSD.
Given the 3 I would rather be bitten by the pit.

And obviously my point was lost. Then IF your PSI "quotes" are correct then there IS more propensity for a Pit breed to "bite" and NOT let go than a GSD or Rott. Because insurance co's keep track of this very thing whether ANYONE likes it or not and I have had first hand access of this information in my former job capacity for 15 years and the insurance industry is the main leader in helping ban certain breeds. Ending the attack is part of their problem. And yes, damage is part of what the OP was talking about also.

[DrKym]

And obviously my point was lost. Then IF your PSI "quotes" are correct then there IS more propensity for a Pit breed to "bite" and NOT let go than a GSD or Rott. Because insurance co's keep track of this very thing whether ANYONE likes it or not and I have had first hand access of this information in my former job capacity for 15 years and the insurance industry is the main leader in helping ban certain breeds. Ending the attack is part of their problem. And yes, damage is part of what the OP was talking about also.

They are not "my" measurements dear sir, they are the property of Animal Planet and several individuals that carried out the research.

As for your erronous but arrogant conclusion about which breed wouldn't let go, they will all hold on sir. I know from personal experience of 20 years training Rotts, that they will hold a bite until they drop from exhaustion or they are released. I also know that the GSDs they are measured against will also.

I think the point that you are trying to make is that pits are known to "latch" on and not let go. Well sir so are JRT's it is one of the traits highly desirable in a terrier. As a side note this thread was not about Pits, it was about Staffodshire terriers, and Yes Virginia there is a difference.

Kym

[cali]

its not "bloodlust" its prey drive, some dogs have more then others, terriers have a lot of it, they were BRED to grab a hold of other ANIMALS, not people. herding breeds also have a lot of prey drive, they are not known to attack other animals because there are 2 parts to the instinct, there is stalk and kill. the herding breeds were had the "kill" part muted, but that doesnt mean it doesnt crop up here and there. hunting breed simpley have the kill drive controled since the owner is supposed to do the killing lol in pretty much every other breed the stalk and kill instinct is still there, it is up the the breeders to mute it, by BYBs and PMs dont care so there are a lot of dogs out there of many differnt breeds with exactly the same instict as pitties. these insticts apply to other animals, the dogs would have been pretty usless if the stalk and kill instict was bred in for attacking humans.

[Love That Collie]

They are not "my" measurements dear sir, they are the property of Animal Planet and several individuals that carried out the research.

As for your erronous but arrogant conclusion about which breed wouldn't let go, they will all hold on sir. I know from personal experience of 20 years training Rotts, that they will hold a bite until they drop from exhaustion or they are released. I also know that the GSDs they are measured against will also.

I think the point that you are trying to make is that pits are known to "latch" on and not let go. Well sir so are JRT's it is one of the traits highly desirable in a terrier. As a side note this thread was not about Pits, it was about Staffodshire terriers, and Yes Virginia there is a difference.



Firstly, Sir, it's "M'aam". Secondly, I only stated that they were your conclusions because they were in your post. Not that they were YOUR conclusions since you didn't state from where they came.
And yes, that's the point, "Latch on and not let go" as you put it is exactly the point. But, ah, there enlies the problem, "or they are released", study shows (by the insurance industry) they are unstable in that category. The plain truth of the matter is that Staff, Pit, anything you want to call them are seen as virtually the same category and that will not change in anyone here todays lifetime. And JRT's? well, maybe they won't let go but I'd bet that I would survive THAT attack. So yes, Santa, there is a difference.

[borzoimom]

Sorry people- but the problem here is you can not get a staffy off of an attack.. to the point of being shot to stop them... They have yet to explain why, but its there.- once started even the most trained of the breed - there is no return-
And given the choice- the shepherd has one of the highest psi's but given a choice- if I had to get bit- it would be a shepherd- at least they would stop at the sign of submission- a staffy WILL NOT ..

[DrKym]

Firstly, Sir, it's "M'aam". Secondly, I only stated that they were your conclusions because they were in your post. Not that they were YOUR conclusions since you didn't state from where they came.
And yes, that's the point, "Latch on and not let go" as you put it is exactly the point. But, ah, there enlies the problem, "or they are released", study shows (by the insurance industry) they are unstable in that category. The plain truth of the matter is that Staff, Pit, anything you want to call them are seen as virtually the same category and that will not change in anyone here todays lifetime. And JRT's? well, maybe they won't let go but I'd bet that I would survive THAT attack. So yes, Santa, there is a difference.
I apologize Ma'am, for the gender confusion. I am certain you are aware that I am also female so you may drop the sir.

Again you are being obtuse to the point being made, all three dogs in that example are known to "latch" on.

Your insurance references are obscure at best, as I have owned and trained all 3 breeds mentioned, for years. I actually had more issues insuring my Dobermanns. If you have inside information on that I am all ears.

[DrKym]

Sorry people- but the problem here is you can not get a staffy off of an attack.. to the point of being shot to stop them... They have yet to explain why, but its there.- once started even the most trained of the breed - there is no return-
And given the choice- the shepherd has one of the highest psi's but given a choice- if I had to get bit- it would be a shepherd- at least they would stop at the sign of submission- a staffy WILL NOT ..

Michelle, in all due respect, you are a Terrier group judge, that is a blanket statement and very, very unlike you.

I am assuming based on years of knowing eachother that you are being very very general here. For the sake of keeping this thread informative as opposed to emotional.

[wolf_Q]

This is turning into another pit bull debate and I think the thread needs to be closed. We've had enough threads like this.

[Love That Collie]

I apologize Ma'am, for the gender confusion. I am certain you are aware that I am also female so you may drop the sir.

Again you are being obtuse to the point being made, all three dogs in that example are known to "latch" on.

Your insurance references are obscure at best, as I have owned and trained all 3 breeds mentioned, for years. I actually had more issues insuring my Dobermanns. If you have inside information on that I am all ears.

You are the one who stated that JRT's "latch on" and I was stating that, that may well be but there's no comparison to a JRT bite and a "Pit" bite so there's nothing obtuse in my thinking about it. Or do you think a JRT bite is the same?

As far as the insurance references, no, not obscure at all, Pit types top the list in more places (i.e. states, counties and cities) than any other ONE type of breed and that is a fact. Your Doberman's insurances are your problem and where you reside and not seen as a MORE major problem across the U.S. as a whole in attack reported cases. I was a bit surprised that Shar-Pei's were also on the insurance industry list, albeit lower on the list. If anybody doesn't think that the insurance industry ISN'T behind breed banning legislation and that they aren't one of the most powerful industries in the nation then those people are sorely mistaken. And if the breeder of these types don't change their breeding habits, owners of "Pit" types might just wake up one day to find them illegal, period, everywhere in the U.S. as they already are in some counties.

FYI, no, I don't believe that I did know conclusively that you are a female.

[DrKym]

You are the one who stated that JRT's "latch on" and I was stating that, that may well be but there's no comparison to a JRT bite and a "Pit" bite so there's nothing obtuse in my thinking about it. Or do you think a JRT bite is the same?

As far as the insurance references, no, not obscure at all, Pit types top the list in more places (i.e. states, counties and cities) than any other ONE type of breed and that is a fact. Your Doberman's insurances are your problem and where you reside and not seen as a MORE major problem across the U.S. as a whole in attack reported cases. I was a bit surprised that Shar-Pei's were also on the insurance industry list, albeit lower on the list. If anybody doesn't think that the insurance industry ISN'T behind breed banning legislation and that they aren't one of the most powerful industries in the nation then those people are sorely mistaken. And if the breeder of these types don't change their breeding habits, owners of "Pit" types might just wake up one day to find them illegal, period, everywhere in the U.S. as they already are in some counties.

FYI, no, I don't believe that I did know conclusively that you are a female.


We are all aware of the might of Insurance lobbyists, and with misinformed and prejudicial people writing the policies, whose pockets are fleeced by those willing to fleece them, many breeds suffer.

According to the Google search I just did, Akitas, Shar peis, Rottweilers, GSDs, also top the list for insurance issues. None of those are Pit type, nor Staffodshire descent.......

As stated earlier the obvious size difference between a JRT and a larger terrier is obvious. Therefore the bite differential would also change.

Returning to original portion of this thread, it was NOT the breed at fault on the whole, it was the owners inabilty to restrain, control or correct his animal. It was abuse to have beaten the dog into submission at the whim of a passerby. It still stands that not all dogs in a breed are awful or wonderful, and all breed charicteristics must be taken into account when aquiring your companion. Not all dogs will go find Timmy, and not all are expected to.

[Love That Collie]

We are all aware of the might of Insurance lobbyists, and with misinformed and prejudicial people writing the policies, whose pockets are fleeced by those willing to fleece them, many breeds suffer.

According to the Google search I just did, Akitas, Shar peis, Rottweilers, GSDs, also top the list for insurance issues. None of those are Pit type, nor Staffodshire descent.......

Yes, they do, (re the Akita, Shar, Rott) but not the major cities and major insurance co.'s and the list changes also. And there's no lobbyists getting paid for lobbying against Shar-Pei's or Akita's, solely. However, it would be nice if they would go find "Timmy".

[luvofallhorses]

This is turning into another pit bull debate and I think the thread needs to be closed. We've had enough threads like this.

I agree 100%!! I am so sick of these threads bashing pit bulls. :(

[cyber-sibes]

Put it down to the fact all dogs have different temperaments and require different handling, but all are most definitely not born to kill.I hope no one takes this wrong, but of course they are born to kill, as is every meat-eating animal on the planet! That's why they have long sharp teeth.

I read a a great article on prey-drive on a husky site. The author described how different breeds were adapted by man to stop their instinctive natural hunting cycle at different points-- example: a pointer will indicate the prey, but not attack it. A retriever will carry prey back, but not bite it & eat it. Other breeds will drive prey into a corner and hold it there. In the case of huskies & other high-prey drive northern breeds, the hunting cycle was never interferred with, so these dogs will hunt, kill, and devore their prey. And they do. I wouldn't label them "viciouss", they are being good hunters. I know if I said "drop it", they'll look at me like "Are you nuts?"

Look at this from the dog's perspective - it saw an easy opportunity to hunt & bring down a large tasty bird, and it's prey drive kicked in. You label it "viciousness", because you see the swan as "innocent". Another dog might think "nicely done!"

I don't know much about pitties, except that they are loving devoted guardians. Who knows? Maybe it saw the bird as invading its territory?

To answer your original question - yes, some breeds have a higher prey drive than others. Individual dogs vary in their aggressiveness & submissivness. It is unfortunate that some breeds suffer because of their natural tendencies. ALL dogs need obedience training & a responsible owner.

[DrKym]

Yes, they do, (re the Akita, Shar, Rott) but not the major cities and major insurance co.'s and the list changes also. And there's no lobbyists getting paid for lobbying against Shar-Pei's or Akita's, solely. However, it would be nice if they would go find "Timmy".
I assume you meant the lobbyists :)

[Love That Collie]

I assume you meant the lobbyists :)

No, I meant "Pits" are right up there. The lower level insurance companies will insure them because they know that the majority of the high profile ones more often than not, will not. But, I'd watch out for that fine print with those lower level insurance companies policies.

[DrKym]

More Pitts than I care to mention hold an award for "finding Timmy" in this example, being there for their family. Without the benefit of Hollywood. You can find several confirmed references on this site alone.

My daughter owns Staffodshire terriers, and her homeowners is through Allstate. So is her car insurance. Her rental Insurance was through State Farm. She lives in Yavapai county Az. Go figure.

As I said not all dogs need to bark down a well, nor are they expected to. Several insurance policy writers would be better employed barking down that well, present company excluded.

[SunsetRose]

They aren't vicious dogs.

But they aren't the right dog for everybody. Do they have a high prey drive? yes. Can they be dog aggressive? Yes. They make wonderful dogs IF they get the proper training and socialization. But by no means are they vicious dogs that should be banned or put to sleep.

I too am suprised at how many people say they would beat their dog if it attacked another animal. Believe it or not, reacting to violence with violence can actually make it worse. The dog will take it's pain out on the animal it has in it's mouth becuase it thinks it's that animal causing the pain.

The best way to deal with a situation like this besides using pepper or citronella spray is simply to get ahold of the dog, force it to lay down and pry the animal out of it's mouth. I know this because we once had a German shepherd a long time ago when I was younger who would attack cats. Hitting him never worked, just made it worse, what did was grabbing him by the scruff of the neck, putting his body between your legs, restrain movement, push him to the ground and then remove the cat.

[wolfsoul]

get ahold of the dog, force it to lay down and pry the animal out of it's mouth.
The problem in my cat's case -- the dog was a mastiff/rottie/GSD mix. He was huge. He was moving around so much my mom couldn't even grab the dog's back legs. There was no way he could have been pinned down.

[SunsetRose]

Grizzly was actually a large shepherd as well. He was a bit over 100 pounds. It took both of my parents to get him off the cat the first time. It only took a few times before he learned what he was supposed to do. Then all it took was for my mom to grab the scruff of his neck. Even I could do it.

We were eventually able to get him to the point that he would see a cat and almost start to chase it, but we could call him, tell him to leave it, and he was fine.

He died young though, at age 6. We have no clue why, he just layed down and died, literally.

[Catlady711]

I happen to know very many friendly, and well trained pitts as well as rotties, and don't think any single breed should be banned.

I've said it to many people before, and I'll say it here..."even if any breed (whether pitt, rott, or gsd) was banned, bad owners and people breeding/training for viciousness on purpose would simply find another breed to give a bad rap to."

I could just see the media circus now, headlines reading 'states want to ban poodles after vicious attacks', or 'chihuahuas now considered number one on the most dangerous dog lists' or 'homeowners insurance cancelled after discovered homeowner kept a yorkie as a pet'. *read sarcasm*

[caseysmom]

I agree 100%!! I am so sick of these threads bashing pit bulls. :(

Its always the same 2 doing the bashing...just ignore it, we aren't going to undo ignorance.

[borzoimom]

Michelle, in all due respect, you are a Terrier group judge, that is a blanket statement and very, very unlike you.

I am assuming based on years of knowing eachother that you are being very very general here. For the sake of keeping this thread informative as opposed to emotional.
Yea I know its unlike me as you know I believe dogs are indivuals with breed tendencies- however- I am just looking or reading report after report- time after time- of witness's that state they could not stop the attack. And yes- most of these reports were untrained dogs etc- but enough reports- they were well trained dogs- including my friends dog.
I do not really think there is answer in this subject. It does become emotional verses informative when having people face what they would do to stop this event from happening with themselves and their pet.
I am also rather surprised few have mentioned that " do nothing" was mentioned. Putting yourself into a dog fight- whether the prey is a dog or not is also a good way to get bit.. In working with dogs in kennels before, and my own group- most broke up the fight with loud yelling- stomping feet, realizing your energy can be transfered if you touch two fighting dogs. Yes - this is a swan. Grabbing the dog at the back of the neck is also a good way to get bit if you are not strong enough to hold down a energy and adrenile charged animal. While I am sorry for the swan- the person probably "egged" on the attack by beating the animal. Especially this breed- " high threshold for pain"..
Maybe its time to close this thread Karen?

[kittycats_delight]

You know i never bothered to reply after my initial post because I noticed the thread starter didn't really seem interested in the arguements the people for the staffie were giving she was only looking for the negatives. It actually seems this thread was not started to get the question 'Staffs are they all vicious?' answered at all it really seems it was started to get a heated debate or arguement if you like started...IMHO. I refuse to get involved in this tired debate and bashing party of any and all bully breeds...it is sickening and stupid. People who are against them are against them PERIOD and they don't want to hear people fight for the bully breed they don't want to listen to facts or expert opinion on the temperment of the dog or the problem of irresponible ownership. It is a waste of breath to try to talk to them as their opinion is set in stone. Blockheaded people drive me nuts...come on people open your minds...it is not the dogs...it is the owners.

Enough said I will not reply again. I just wanted to give my opinion of the whole debate thing.

I do agree that this thread needs to be closed.

[gwen]

I can hand on heart say that I really didnt expect such a large and vehement response from my question, as I have said previously I have only recently become a dog owner, so previously I really hadnt given any thought to these dogs, I have 4 children so most of my time has been consumed by them, I only asked as this has been my experience to date. I have read intently all your comments and yes I do agree that many owners are to blame for their dogs bad behaviour, I just wondered if staffs (we dont have pit bulls in england as they are a banned breed.) were naturally vicious, as most of you have ferociously argued they are not, I'm quite happy to accept that this is true but I had to ask the question.

[kittycats_delight]

I just wondered if staffs (we dont have pit bulls in england as they are a banned breed.) were naturally vicious, as most of you have ferociously argued they are not, I'm quite happy to accept that this is true but I had to ask the question.

I just want to make a comment on this. American Staffordshire Terriers are classed by the UKC as American Pitbull Terriers. So this Staffie you seen attacked the queen's swan is considered a pitbull and is banned as per your own comments. Therefore I guess this should tell you something about the owner right???

[Jadapit]

Its always the same 2 doing the bashing...just ignore it, we aren't going to undo ignorance.

So true. This is why I dont come to PT much anymore. There seems to be a pit bull bashing thread at least once a month. I'm sure these people would not like it if I came on and bashed the breed they love.

I dont have any problems with Ebony (my pit bull) at all. She honestly is a very good girl. We walk by other dogs all the time she shows no aggression towards them. Would she go after a swan? Probably. But many, many dogs would go after a bird and kill it not just pit bulls or staffies.

If you dont have control of your dog you should NOT let him/ her off leash or even be out and about walking with them. In the end its usually always the owners fault, not the dogs. Some people will never get that. :(

[DrKym]

My breeds do get bashed, and no Staffies aren't my breed, neither are Pitties.

I have my own experiences with them, as posted in other threads. I cannot stand by and allow misinformation to be spouted as fact. I realize that it may be futile, however I believe that if one person stops and rethinks, then it was worth it. Yes I feel like I am repeating myself. Yes the same things keep getting said. Yes it seems as if it is the same 2.

Do I want to own a Pit or a Staffie? Nope, I don't want any terrier breed, not even a yorkie, but I will defend the breeds, and the owners rights to have them. Provided they are in loving , responsible homes. Oh yeah I feel that way about ANY breed. Just as you can see people who will give up everything extra in their lives to spend the time needed in their pups life to give them a solid foundation and a great head start at being a wonderful addition to the dog community at large. You can also see people that won't.
Same holds true for ANY dog, regardless of breed. Some will strive with everything they have to be Wonderdog, some won't. It isn't the breed, it is the personality and mind of each individual.Regardless of Breed, Creed, Race or income levels.

I will reiterate, ALL dogs can bite, most choose not to. ALL breeds have been dinked with by us, for us, to make our lives better, easier, happier, whatever the reasons were. It is up to us to know this, to research this, and to provide any breed we choose with the proper home, and job for it's function. You wouldn't expect a Shitzu to sled pull, you should not expect a terrier not to chase or dig.

Just my 2 cents, and with as many times as I have posted here, I guess it is now my dollars worth.

[cyber-sibes]

Dr, Goodnow, you have dobies, right? I remember thirty years ago the buzz was "Dobies are vicious attack dogs. You can't own them for a pet." This was when large numbers of dobies were shown on TV as yard dogs behind fences & runnng around in movies being aggresive- of course this is ridiculous. I also recall when rottis, boxers, and GSD's were all viewed as too aggresive to be good pets. These breed prejudices come & go. Sadly it seems to be the pitties turn. Everyone seems to forget that it was a pittie that played "Pete", the beloved companion of the Little Rascals.

[DrKym]

Dr, Goodnow, you have dobies, right? I remember thirty years ago the buzz was "Dobies are vicious attack dogs. You can't own them for a pet." This was when large numbers of dobies were shown on TV as yard dogs behind fences & runnng around in movies being aggresive- of course this is ridiculous. I also recall when rottis, boxers, and GSD's were all viewed as too aggresive to be good pets. These breed prejudices come & go. Sadly it seems to be the pitties turn. Everyone seems to forget that it was a pittie that played "Pete", the beloved companion of the Little Rascals.

Yes Pam I have Dobies, they are unfortunately still viewed as vicious. Ask my city council. I raised trained and showed Rotties for nearly 20 yrs. They too still have a stigma. I agree that it seems to be in cycles, the difference here is simply other than the Rotties which did get a lot of press in the early 90's , as they were the drug lords dog of choice then. Owners rights to love and keep their animals haven't been threatened.

Yes it costs us more to insure our rotties and Dobies, if only the insurance knew my cocker is more apt to nail someone. However, there are no laws in effect stopping me from owning my breeds. Pitties can be a dangerous animal, so can my dobes. I would bet pushed far enough your Husky could too, even though they are known not to be a "guard" dog type.

Maybe 5 years from now we will see ourselves having this same thread with another breed. That when the issue of the breed dies down and the same amount of energy is put into correcting the problem, that this breed is being exploited for. Read drug lords choice of breed this decade. then people like my daughter, Jadas Mom, and several others I know can be left in peace to love their breed and recieve that back from their companions. Until then I will fight for their rights to love their family members without interference.

Hug those beautiful Huskies for me, Lord knows I don't have the energy to own your breed! But I love looking at them!

Kym

[caseysmom]

So true. This is why I dont come to PT much anymore. There seems to be a pit bull bashing thread at least once a month. I'm sure these people would not like it if I came on and bashed the breed they love.

I dont have any problems with Ebony (my pit bull) at all. She honestly is a very good girl. We walk by other dogs all the time she shows no aggression towards them. Would she go after a swan? Probably. But many, many dogs would go after a bird and kill it not just pit bulls or staffies.

If you dont have control of your dog you should NOT let him/ her off leash or even be out and about walking with them. In the end its usually always the owners fault, not the dogs. Some people will never get that. :(

Please don't stay away from this huge community because of 2 people, you know the rest of us love your girls. :(

[mike001]

I wanted to get everyone's responses on this subject and I did. What I don't understand is that most of you foster the blame unto the owners who own pitts. No one seems to realize that these dogs were originally bred to kill bulls in the ring. They would clamp their jaws on a bull's jugular and not release until the bull died. This is an awfully hard trait to breed out of an animal. I've also noticed that on some forums if a child is mauled it's the child's fault, or again, the child and the owner. Why is it never the dog's fault? From what I gather pitts are banned in Ontario and many other places, there has to be a reason for this. I fully agree that any dog can bite, even Shepherds, Dobes, R otties, etc. But these breeds release when told to, a pitt will never release. I'm just wondering with all the controversy and the banning of pitts, why anyone would choose that breed in the first place. There are so many other loveable breeds to choose from that won't have you constantly watching for the dog's next move??? I have read and watched on the news too many maulings from these dogs to feel comfortable with them. To me a child's life is always more important than a dog's. Any human life comes first in my mind.
I've never put the blame on an owner or a child for a pitt attack, most were dedicated owners who thought their dogs were "safe". I see it as tempting fate when owning a pitt. Just my opinion, but things do happen. :confused:

[DrKym]

I wanted to get everyone's responses on this subject and I did. What I don't understand is that most of you foster the blame unto the owners who own pitts. No one seems to realize that these dogs were originally bred to kill bulls in the ring. They would clamp their jaws on a bull's jugular and not release until the bull died. This is an awfully hard trait to breed out of an animal. I've also noticed that on some forums if a child is mauled it's the child's fault, or again, the child and the owner. Why is it never the dog's fault? From what I gather pitts are banned in Ontario and many other places, there has to be a reason for this. I fully agree that any dog can bite, even Shepherds, Dobes, R otties, etc. But these breeds release when told to, a pitt will never release. I'm just wondering with all the controversy and the banning of pitts, why anyone would choose that breed in the first place. There are so many other loveable breeds to choose from that won't have you constantly watching for the dog's next move??? I have read and watched on the news too many maulings from these dogs to feel comfortable with them. To me a child's life is always more important than a dog's. Any human life comes first in my mind.
I've never put the blame on an owner or a child for a pitt attack, most were dedicated owners who thought their dogs were "safe". I see it as tempting fate when owning a pitt. Just my opinion, but things do happen. :confused:

If you had read everyones responses, then you would not have posted this.

Rottweilers were bred to pull wagons of meat, they are draft dogs. They were also used as guardians because of their size and strength.

Dobermanns, Michelle are bred as a PERSONAL protection dog. Their function is to kill a threat to its' ONE master.

German Shepherds, were not only herding dogs but War dogs,

Staffies weren't bred to "fight" bulls, they were bred to kill the bull when the Human fighter failed. They were also used by the way to rid the farmer and owners land of large vermin.

As for "watching the dogs next move"??? I spend a hell of a lot more time watching my Cocker than I do my kids Staffies, or my dobies.

I also watch closely the JRT next door as he has 9 dead animals to his name and 4 bitten kids, but hey who wants to talk bad about Wishbone? or Eddie?

[Miss Z]

I hope no one takes this wrong, but of course they are born to kill, as is every meat-eating animal on the planet! That's why they have long sharp teeth.



Whoops, I guess I forgot to re-read the meaning of my post! :o What I meant to say was that no matter what the reputation is, any dog's mind is not consantly occupied by the drive of catching and killing. I suppose that's what you get for trying to write posts at nearly midnight after a long school day. :p



FYI, no, I don't believe that I did know conclusively that you are a female.


What on earth does that have to do with anything? I read through both of yours and Kym's posts and really, it's a little childish bringing such matters down to bantering between our genders.

As for the whole situation of pit bulls and the likewise breeds here in the UK, as far as I'm aware it's illegal to breed and sell pit bulls and staffies etc, but not illegal to buy or own one. I'm not entirely sure if that's true or not so someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

I do, however, believe this thread has gone way off topic and it's a real shame to see fracturelines appearing once again in PT's general friendly nature. I think perhaps it would be a good idea if we go and cool down, hug a pet, then come back and think about how nasty posts may affect our fellow Pet Talkers.

[Kfamr]

There is a HUGE difference between PREY DRIVE (going after a swan) and aggression/being vicious (going after something for no reason.)

And that is all I will comment on because this thread had gotten incredibly childish.

[gwen]

Thanks Miss Z, I really didnt realise what a can of worms I was opening. It seems a really touchy subject. Som people seem really hardcore in their opinions but some have been kind and rational, especially you, thanks again.

[borzoimom]

gwen- The fact is- each dog was bred for a purpose- a sighthound will chase, a doberman is personal protection and a pit will fight a bull 1/10th its size- then other dogs-...
You can NOT shut of the driven instincts of a breed- its in there- just like prego commercials- its in there...
I fault the club that refuses to say this is what you need to do for good ownership of a breed... My club does- but most others do not... I knew when my first borzoi came into the house- that was it for cats- and I need to make sure they do not run in a open field or they willl get too far- too quick to hear me call them back..
Each breed has a " form to function" to consider... and people that really could less about the breed breeding whatever to whatever- is part of the problem- the other half of the problem- THE PEOPLE THAT OWN THAT DO NOT REALIZE THAT THE DOG had a FUNCTION to start with...

[caseysmom]

The few here that are constantly bashing pit bulls. I think we all know what your opinions are, honesty why must you state those opinions over and over and over?

I am sincerely wondering why???

[borzoimom]

gwen- The fact is- each dog was bred for a purpose- a sighthound will chase, a doberman is personal protection and a pit will fight a bull 1/10th its size- then other dogs-...
You can NOT shut of the driven instincts of a breed- its in there- just like prego commercials- its in there...
I fault the club that refuses to say this is what you need to do for good ownership of a breed... My club does- but most others do not... I knew when my first borzoi came into the house- that was it for cats- and I need to make sure they do not run in a open field or they willl get too far- too quick to hear me call them back..
Each breed has a " form to function" to consider... and people that really could less about the breed breeding whatever to whatever- is part of the problem- the other half of the problem- THE PEOPLE THAT OWN THAT DO NOT REALIZE THAT THE DOG had a FUNCTION to start with...
People do not understand why the breed was created- and WE did it... without this knowledge- people do not understand just WHAT they are getting into... Whatever the breed- the breeds were made for a function... Its up to the breed clubs to set a standard of ownership- my breed club does- and others do also- time for the staffy club to do the same...

[Husky15]

What amazes me is that Gwen just asked a simple question that someone with great knowledge on the breed could have answered - instead of everyone getting into yet another debate on staffies and pitties.

No one knows whether this thread was made to create waves or not, but like I said, someone could have just answered her question and saved all this fighting and childishness.

I think that there has been enough threads like this now that everyone should be able to control themself and act maturely.

[caseysmom]

Us humans all had things in our past...that is not what we are today, we no longer hunt or forage for the most part, you just can't evaluate us based on ancient history. Same with dogs.

The pitties at the shelter I volunteer at are hands down the best behaved dogs in the place.

[borzoimom]

But the same drive in humans is there- to survive- to live- and to get enough... Same traits...

[caseysmom]

But the same drive in humans is there- to survive- to live- and to get enough... Same traits...

No they are not the same traits as our predecessors have, we are all evolving. Nothing ever stays the same.

You are not sucking me into another pit bull bashing thread. I am done here, and when I say that I mean it.

[CathyBogart]

Thread needs kittens now!! ;) ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/wolfchan/flavor.jpg

[Alysser]

I'm so sick of these threads, I can't tell you how angry it makes me feel. I don't have time to read through 7 pages, but I have read page 6 and some comments were really uncalled for.

It's two people in particular, one I know nothing about, except she HAS NO CLUE what she is talking about. I hate when people come onto a thread like this a make false assumptions, accusations, and completely go off topic. The main purpose of this thread was Staffies not pitbulls.

I don't know how much times I have to say it but......

Dogs are effected more by their owners then anything else. If I were too hit Sassy, beat her, and leave her on a chain outside 24/7 she would have fear agression. She doesn't have fear agression because she is not abused. DOGS aren't bored fearful and/or agressive. NOTE: Im using that as an example, I DONT abuse my dog. Just go back and look at her pic threads for proof. ;)

The main point of this is, if you don't know something, and you're going to make false statements, save yourself from looking like a fool, and keep your mouth shut. :rolleyes:

[CathyBogart]

This video answers the original question, and will hopefully bring smiles to a few faces. Everyone, meet Chickie Sue (http://www.immortalstudios.net/chickie_sue.html)!!

PS: If you know anyone in northern CA who needs a Chickie Sue in their life, she's available from www.badrap.org :)

[applesmom]

Breed History
The American Staffordshire Terrier is not a new breed. Although it gained American Kennel Club registration and recognition in 1936, it has been developed since the early 1800's as a result of crosses between the bulldogs of that time and game terriers. One of the early and very famous AKC registered Staffs was Pete the Pup, (real name Lucenay's Peter), dog star of the original Our Gang comedies of the 1930's.

Although the early ancestors of this breed came from England, the development of the American Staffordshire Terrier is the story of a truly American breed. This type of dog was instrumental in the success of farmers and settlers who developed this country. They were used for general farm work, hunting wild pigs, bears, and other large game, guarding the homestead, and general companionship.

A number of the early ancestors were also developed for the "sport" of dog fighting. The extraordinary vitality of this breed is a direct result of breeding for successful fighting dogs. This now illegal activity is, unfortunately, more often cited as the early purpose of the dogs rather than the general farm work.

Although ancestors of the American Staffordshire were fighting dogs, the selective breeding since the 1930's has been away from the fighting heritage. The American Staffordshire Terrier of today is a companion and show dog, rather than a gladiator. Although more rarely used on the farm now, the talents that made him a good all purpose dog are still to be found in the breed.
Staffordshire Club of America Website (http://www.amstaff.org/breedinfo.html)

[Love That Collie]

Quote Miss Z:from Originally Posted by Love That Collie

FYI, no, I don't believe that I did know conclusively that you are a female.

What on earth does that have to do with anything? I read through both of yours and Kym's posts and really, it's a little childish bringing such matters down to bantering between our genders:End Quote......................................


Maybe you better go back and re-read again.

[areias]

I agree with Kay...prey drive is totally different from aggression, or "viciousness". And dog aggressive does not automatically translate to human aggressive. I should know, I have a dog that is aggressive towards strange dogs! And he has NO aggressive tendencies towards people-we have kids that mess with him all the time.

I totally forget the sources, but I have read before that if someone had a Pittie back in the day to fight, and it bit a person, it would be destroyed. You cannot have a dog in a fighting ring that bites people...just bringing it to the ring could be dangerous, especially if the dog bit someone in the crowd. They would be culled.

People say pits turn on people. There is a trigger, something is not right...no dog "turns" (unless there is a medical reason). What I wonder about is the people that get a pit, and use it as a guard dog...then the dog either escapes, or someone "rescues" it, and it gets put in a new home...and then it has a tendency to bite. And I don't know what posessed people to get pits as guard dogs in the first place...that wasn't their intended purpose.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...I have been bitten by a lab, a bichon, and a bull terrier. Agressively by the lab and bichon, and playfully chomped down on by the bull terrier.

I don't want to drag this in here, but I will. And I expect to get bashed for it. Anyone who is 100% against pits, is racist against that breed. You can say the SAME thing for the races of people. Definately not getting into a racist argument, and not trying to offend anyone, but it is said that when black people move into a neighborhood, crime goes up, the neighborhood value goes down...etc etc. Not that I believe in this, but that is what is said. Not every black person steals, and not every white person is an angel. It's the same exact thing with breeds of dog.
I saw a bumper sticker once...it was awesome..it said "STOP RACIAL PROFILING" with a picture of a black man, white man, asian woman, and a pit bull.

[Karen]

I am closing this thread. Enough has been said, and the original question has been answered. No further bickering need happen.