What Information are "owners" entitled to?

[DrKym]

I was looking through a few threads form this week, some that I responded to and a few I didn't but am watching with interest.

One peice of information in a thread has been niggling at me. In this case the animals are "owned " by a few people, only one is the legal owner though.
The animals and the "owners" all live together. There is some debate on a few points between them, on limits and behaviour. In general and on the whole, they all seem to agree on tolerable things, housebreaking, crate training etc. However there is a disparity on the level of tolerance on biting.

One of the owners was bitten, and made a choice not to tell the other owners, as that owners level of tolerance did not match their own. I am not mentioning names as that is not my intent, but the issue that bothers me is it is the legal owner that is unaware of this behaviour.

The part that niggles at me is this....what happens if this living situation changes? What happens if the legal owner then has custody of an animal that has bitten, this person is unaware of it. If this animal again bites, with a different outcome, this person is not only going to be baffled at the behaviour but put in a very unsavory position, as with this info he would have had choices available to him, i.e. to turn legal ownership over to the other "owner', to work with the animal themself to correct the issue, or very possible in their rights to return the animal.

In my own personal belief, as I have co-owned many animals legally and also without the paperwork, I would be rather upset if that type of information was withheld.

Just my opinion, what are yours??

[areias]

I know what your talking about...and have wondered the same thing. I don't have much time to elaborate, but I think it's a very thin line. On one hand, if the legal owner was not informed, they could be bitten or (mauled-hate to say it). On the other hand, it could have been a one time instance, and if told to the legal owner, the owner might have it PTS. I believe that if a dog bites someone, it should go to a certified canine behavorist, 9 times out of 10.

I think in this particular situation, the person in question should seek outside help from a professional. If it happens again, it should be confessed and the parties should discuss further action.

[critter crazy]

I think all of the "owners" should be informed of the behavior, it is very unwise to hide something like this. This could make for a serious problem later. I would never hide something as serious as a dog bite. That is just wrong, whether skin was broken or not!

[applesmom]

The recent posts are not so much a matter of ownership; but rather a matter of knowingly exposing someone to potential harm.

If someone who shared a household with me knew there was a strong chance their/our dog would bite me or anyone else--they darned sure owe it to me to warn me and discuss possible solutions.

If they believe it was a one time incident and not likely to ever to happen again--that might be another story.

[critter crazy]

If they believe it was a one time incident and not likely to ever to happen again--that might be another story.

not trying to be mean, but asking a honest question.

How would one know, it wouldnt happen again???

[DrKym]

The recent posts are not so much a matter of ownership; but rather a matter of knowingly exposing someone to potential harm.

If someone who shared a household with me knew there was a strong chance their/our dog would bite me or anyone else--they darned sure owe it to me to warn me and discuss possible solutions.

If they believe it was a one time incident and not likely to ever to happen again--that might be another story.

The exposure to harm was also a concern, which is why I personally agree with informing all involved.

If it was a "one time " thing then that should be discussed at the same time.
Only time will tell if it was or wasn't.

I also agree a trainer/behavourist should be contacted and to speak with all involved, and after evaluating the animal give a professional opinion on the likely hood of it recurring, and to offer support and training to help.

[applesmom]

not trying to be mean, but asking a honest question.

How would one know, it wouldnt happen again???

Good question! ;)

I was thinking of a particular incident I had. About three times a week I played with Coffee with the hose; encouraging her to bite at the water as it came out the end. Both of us had a blast playing like that and she got lots of exercise!

One beautiful spring day I got the bright idea to bathe her outside with the hose. The poor dog had no way of knowing my thumb was over the end of the hose to make the water spray. She chomped down on the water as usual and bit right through my thumb. :eek:

It was pure accident and lack of forethought on my part. Couldn't hardly hide a bandaged thumb though!

There was another incident with Howdy. Our neighborhood went through a rough time for a few years and we encouraged the dogs to run to the window and bark furiously when we heard strange noises in our yard.

One night my 16 year old granddaughter, Terri was sleeping on the couch and her 18 year old sister Heather was sleeping in the bedroom. In the middle of the night I woke up to hear the chilling sound of Heather screaming "he bit me", followed by huge gulping sobs!

I ran out into the living room terrified and not knowing what to expect. Howdy and Terri had both been sound asleep on the couch and Heather who couldn't sleep had gotten up and reached beside Terri's head to turn the lamp on.

Terri not knowing Heather was up, was startled and woke just enough to tell a "dead to the world" Howdy to "go see".

Sensing a human presence practically on top of Terri he immediately grabbed Heathers arm in his mouth. He instantly recognized her scent and let go before she could even react.

There wasn't a mark on Heather, but from that day forward we knew that the "go see" command was worth it's weight in gold.

Both of those incidents were "bites" that would never happen again"!

[areias]

I also agree a trainer/behavourist should be contacted and to speak with all involved, and after evaluating the animal give a professional opinion on the likely hood of it recurring, and to offer support and training to help.

Thinking more on this...I agree with you, that perhaps a trainer should be contacted NOW, the correct steps and information handy, and then told to the household what has happened.

[BC_MoM]

How would one know, it wouldnt happen again???

That's VERY true. If a dog bites once, it's more than capable of doing it again. Biting is a behaviour that needs to be nipped in the butt ASAP.

[borzoimom]

We were told when we got Femka, that if suddenly startled and felt cornered- she might snap. I have only seen the behavior once- and that was in the first week.. She was asleep near a closet, with her back against the wall. My dogs use to closets, and me not thinking- I said something, then opened the door which opened outwards- putting her between the door and the wall. I guess in her mind- she felt trapped and snapped at me.. ( looked more of a snap to me..but didnt make contact- but her teeth sure went click..).. That was two years ago- .. I am not sure if its that she has settled now- as she is obviously happier- a totally different dog with a 180 degree change- but I will say this-
The fact they told me that could happen- instead of me freaking out that she " turned on me" - I understood what position I had put her in.. For months afterwards- I watched for things like that- and now two years later- I doubt she would.. But we know its there.. She is also MUCH MORE CONFIDENT and actually quite silly.. I am glad they told me this could happen. She already acted terrified the first few weeks..
(** importantant note- if we had small children or many people in the house other than us too, this situation might have had more gravity to us than " Oh you idiot Michelle- that was a stupid move!! Poor Femka..".. **)

[DrKym]

I think you made part of my for me Michelle, the fact is you were allowed to make a choice about Femka, you were informed, and you could decide if you wanted to retain her , or if not you had options open to you.

Glad Femka stayed though, that way when I steal Hottie you wont be to lonely......... ;)

[critter crazy]

We were told when we got Femka, that if suddenly startled and felt cornered- she might snap. I have only seen the behavior once- and that was in the first week.. She was asleep near a closet, with her back against the wall. My dogs use to closets, and me not thinking- I said something, then opened the door which opened outwards- putting her between the door and the wall. I guess in her mind- she felt trapped and snapped at me.. ( looked more of a snap to me..but didnt make contact- but her teeth sure went click..).. That was two years ago- .. I am not sure if its that she has settled now- as she is obviously happier- a totally different dog with a 180 degree change- but I will say this-
The fact they told me that could happen- instead of me freaking out that she " turned on me" - I understood what position I had put her in.. For months afterwards- I watched for things like that- and now two years later- I doubt she would.. But we know its there.. She is also MUCH MORE CONFIDENT and actually quite silly.. I am glad they told me this could happen. She already acted terrified the first few weeks..
(** importantant note- if we had small children or many people in the house other than us too, this situation might have had more gravity to us than " Oh you idiot Michelle- that was a stupid move!! Poor Femka..".. **)

Rocky was the same way, I was not informed however, and was very shocked about his behavior. He felt cornered as well, and snapped at me, he thankfully only left slobber on my arm, but it was quite a shock, but it made perfect sense later. Rocky has not done this since that day, and I am very acreful about putting him in that situation again.
It is best if all parties are told of behavior like this, so certain things can be avoided!

[borzoimom]

Rocky was the same way, I was not informed however, and was very shocked about his behavior. He felt cornered as well, and snapped at me, he thankfully only left slobber on my arm, but it was quite a shock, but it made perfect sense later. Rocky has not done this since that day, and I am very acreful about putting him in that situation again.
It is best if all parties are told of behavior like this, so certain things can be avoided!
PERFECT EXAMPLE and we all know now what a lovely dog he is.. Just like with Femka- the right situation, and training and love- and knowledge to the owner this can happen- we knew.. She stayed with ME FEELING like the stupid one for not paying attention.
BTW critter crazy- Femka was terrified of men for a long time. Now she accepts like she owns the house- full of confidence but not putting her in a corned position for months I am sure made the difference for her to relax and realize- NOTHING was going to happen to her..

[borzoimom]

I think you made part of my for me Michelle, the fact is you were allowed to make a choice about Femka, you were informed, and you could decide if you wanted to retain her , or if not you had options open to you.

Glad Femka stayed though, that way when I steal Hottie you wont be to lonely......... ;)
You and I both know - that although a small dog can give one heck of a bite- it only takes 7 pounds of pressure to break someones arm.. To not give out information especially with a big dog is rather irresponsible to me.
Those people that took that shepherd KNEW that dog was not reliable around children- .. Something that fit with their life style and lived out the full life of the dog- with them!
( and just try to get hottie from me.. rofl.. )

[DrKym]

hehehe Michelle I have other devils at work helping me to steal Hottie..................remember hun I love you, my job is to distract you while he is whisked away along with his vet......

as for the bite issue in where this thread is going, that is part of it, my point with asking all of the PT ppl, wasn't just that though. It is the willful witholding of information, that can make a difference in the dogs or cats life, I truly feel that all ppl responsible for the animal legally or morally are entitled to all information on that animals behaviour. Not just from the legal aspect , and trust me for some you that isn't an issue but for some of us owning certain breeds and having to carry insurance etc, it is, but also for the protection of visitors and passerby. :eek:

[borzoimom]

Its also not just biting- its fence jumping or fighting with other dogs, or food issues, and even saw a few with leash issues as well. I believe being informed not only helps you make the decission of 'if the pet will fit', but also prepares you for the dogs safety- and yours.. Knowing its there in my mind, makes the situation less grave and concerning. Using Femka in the above example- instead of feeling like I was 'in danger' and she was ' unpredicatable', I learned to just pay attention to what I was doing in relation to where she was.
After all- having a anti jump harness if you were to adopt a dog that would jump the fence- thus getting lost etc., is alot easier than spending one whole afternoon looking for your " escape artist.."..
And Kym- my dogs tell me when someone is around- they may not bark- but its obvious when someone is here as evident by this video. Alias- the Borzoi alarm system.. View My Video (http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=42mgkg6) Its hard to miss 4 pacing ponies in the house..View My Video (http://video.tinypic.com/player.php?v=32znxom)

[Twisterdog]

Its also not just biting- its fence jumping or fighting with other dogs, or food issues, and even saw a few with leash issues as well. I believe being informed not only helps you make the decission of 'if the pet will fit', but also prepares you for the dogs safety- and yours.. Knowing its there in my mind, makes the situation less grave and concerning. ...

I totally agree. You simply cannot have "too much" information about a dog ... be it a potential new pet, a friend's dog when you visit their home, a neighbor's dog you share a fence-line with, etc.

I board and groom thousands of dogs every year, and it is almost always without fail the "Oh, I forgot to tell you..." people that cause issues to balloon. If a customer simply tells us honestly, "Muzzle him to clip his nails.", "She is afraid of the broom, of men, of kids, of the brush, etc.", "Don't reach for his collar, he'll snap.", etc., etc., there is never a problem. It's the people that DON'T inform us that he once snapped at a child, etc. that cause problems ... for us, for the dog, for them.

And this is a much more important issue with a dog in a shelter, rescue, breeder's home, etc. that is potentially going to a new home. It is SO important to be brutally honest about a new dog, in any situation. That is the only way it is going to work out for the best for the dog and all the people involved.

[borzoimom]

As many of you have noticed- even on breed posts, I say the things to consider.. Better prepared than have heart ache..

[DrKym]

Agreed, I feel even the negatives are owed , not just for the animals sake either.

[critter crazy]

Absolutely totally agree!!! You can never know too much!!! I iwsh i had gotten more info on Rocky!

[king2005]

Its no secret this was started becasue of me & Mr. Biggles.

As stated in the bite thread, I was very limited as what to do. If I said he bit me, Mr. biggles would be PTS no questions asked, no second chance, no nothing.

I also stated that it was a single bite, not an attack. If he attacked me I would have taken him myself to be PTS. As I fermly believe there is a huge difference between a bite (which is like a snap but with contact) & an attack & i will not tollerate an attack from any dog(puppies are different). Sorry I don't care why it attacked(being mauled, the dog not stopping, you fighting to get away, not a snarl, snap or a bite), but attack = death ASAP.

Mr. Biggles cannot be returned to the shelter as both of them have to be returned as a pair & then both of them would be PTS as a pair.

Thats why I made that post, as I was soooooo stuck on what to do. I did get good advice on how to work things out, without saying he bit me.

I told the guys that Mr. Biggles is super sensitive & showing me that he is scared/over stressed at times. I also said that when dogs get scared/over stressed like him, they may snap or bite (a quick nip, no blood, etc). Chad wasn't too happy with that comment, but it gave me time to explain why Mr. Biggles may snap & its purely out of fear(which is why he bit me). I spent an hour with the guys talking about fear in dogs, esp. the fact that these 2 might have been abused (I'm pretty sure they wern't), so they are full of fear.

That convo went great. I still will not tell Chad that he bit me. If Mr. Biggles does it again, then its safe to tell Chad as I now have taught him about fearful bites (the understanding of why & the dog is only protecting its self, its not an I hate you bite)...

I just wasn't online all weekend, so I wasn't able to update my thread.


I swear I wasn't trying to be sneeky or anything bad. I was looking out for the best in all parties. Thats why I came to PT first so I could get some advice, before I did something wrong.

[DrKym]

Its no secret this was started becasue of me & Mr. Biggles.

As stated in the bite thread, I was very limited as what to do. If I said he bit me, Mr. biggles would be PTS no questions asked, no second chance, no nothing.

I also stated that it was a single bite, not an attack. If he attacked me I would have taken him myself to be PTS. As I fermly believe there is a huge difference between a bite (which is like a snap but with contact) & an attack & i will not tollerate an attack from any dog(puppies are different). Sorry I don't care why it attacked(being mauled, the dog not stopping, you fighting to get away, not a snarl, snap or a bite), but attack = death ASAP.

Mr. Biggles cannot be returned to the shelter as both of them have to be returned as a pair & then both of them would be PTS as a pair.

Thats why I made that post, as I was soooooo stuck on what to do. I did get good advice on how to work things out, without saying he bit me.

I told the guys that Mr. Biggles is super sensitive & showing me that he is scared/over stressed at times. I also said that when dogs get scared/over stressed like him, they may snap or bite (a quick nip, no blood, etc). Chad wasn't too happy with that comment, but it gave me time to explain why Mr. Biggles may snap & its purely out of fear(which is why he bit me). I spent an hour with the guys talking about fear in dogs, esp. the fact that these 2 might have been abused (I'm pretty sure they wern't), so they are full of fear.

That convo went great. I still will not tell Chad that he bit me. If Mr. Biggles does it again, then its safe to tell Chad as I now have taught him about fearful bites (the understanding of why & the dog is only protecting its self, its not an I hate you bite)...

I just wasn't online all weekend, so I wasn't able to update my thread.


I swear I wasn't trying to be sneeky or anything bad. I was looking out for the best in all parties. Thats why I came to PT first so I could get some advice, before I did something wrong.

This wasn't just about that thread hun. It is about a few others also, and not all yours LOL, I am glad you talked to Chad. However my personal opinion stands for me. I would be very upset if as an owner, co owner or otherwise , if that type of information was willfully withheld.

[king2005]

However my personal opinion stands for me. I would be very upset if as an owner, co owner or otherwise , if that type of information was willfully withheld.

I completely agree & so would I. I just knew if I told Chad that I was bitten he wouldn't think twice & would walk out the door with Mr. Biggles that very second. I was completely stuck, as I was sure it wasn't an I hate you bite, or a crazy wild animal bite, & it deffently wasn't an attack.

I deffently wouldn't have put my dog down for a bite if someone told me(my old dog bit someone & he wasn't put down, he had a reason... mind you it was a poor reason, but the girl(14yrs old) knew this & taunted the dog regardless behind my back for 30 mins).. I'd work with the dog... But Chad sees a bite as a bite & nothing more, so bites = death.

I feel like Shat for not telling Chad, & its not like me not to tell someone. I was bitten by a big black dog while delivering the newspaper on sat. I greeted the dog every sat & usually played with him for a few mins. Turns out the owners son was over & had just beaten the HELL out of poor Bear (the black dog, not my bear), so when I went to pet Bear he bit me. It was several snaps & all made contact. My skin was red & I had 1 tiny spot where the tooth broke my skin (very very minor, a rug burn was worse then this bite).

I told my dad & said that Bear wasn't him self.. My dad is good natured like I am & talked to the son. I had NO idea who that guy was I had never seen him before... The son could litterly careless, so dad called the newspaper guys & said they had to come to us if they wanted a paper if the dog was outside, due to a minor bite...

A yr later I was fishing with my old dog. I saw Tiny & Bear loose & running up to me (Tiny was the 2ed dog, that I saw from time to time with Bear)... I freaked & ran into the water to get away from Bear (I have a fear). The owner tried to explain he was friendly. I told my story & the owner was pretty like OMG. Bear was destroyed!!!!!!!!

I think that was unfair, & didn't want Mr. Biggles to be killed for something that wasn't his fault (well missunderstood, you know what I mean).

I still tell owners when I get bitten. If it was in play I state that, if I accidently scared them, I stated that.. if it was I have no idea, he just bit me... I always show my hand & let the owner decide what to do.. but I try to explain the whys.

With Chad I wouldn't have been able to explain the whys, if I said Mr. Biggles bit me.



I now understand this wasn't directed 100% towards me. But I still feel like I should explain my reasoning in good detail, as the whole situation still bothers me.