Mr. Biggles bit me this morning

[king2005]

A pillow fell infront of Mr. Biggles crate & needless to say, its no longer a pillow.

I was trying to gently pull the shredded pillow through the door bars, when the door ripped off (ok so I pulled a little harder then I thought LOL, its not broken). Anywho, Mr. Biggles tried to run out like he tries every time I open the door. Like always I put my hand out to stop & calm him, other wise he'll run upstairs & pee on the floor.

This time was different for some reason... Instead of him getting all wiggly & wanting out, he bit me. I didn't scold him for the pillow or anything.. not even an OMG what have you done.. Not a peep out of my mouth... Honestly it wasn't that big of an issue, as I was the one who should have picked up the pillow before bed & I didn't... For all I know there could have been food spilt on it & thats why he shredded it.. but I don't undeerstand why he bit me.

I have a pretty big fear of being bitten by dogs, as I have been attacked more then once (it was just bad timing & owners letting agressive dogs off leash in a PARK) & have gotten stitches once(no ones fault, it was more of an accident, but still scary as hell). Before I hurt Mr. Biggles in fear, I quickly tossed him into the crate, locked it & walked away, with no feeding & no potty break.

If I didn't have this stupid fear, I would have muzzled him tight (not to hurt) & said NO don't bite.. then I would have left him in the crate a little longer, then fed & pottied him. But with my fear, I was scared I was gonna hurt him, as I have to other charging snapping dogs (dogs I didn't know.. talk about heart attack).

Now I need a lot of education in this department as I have never delt with a dog bitting for an unknown reason (I don't know if I accidently hurt him when I put my hand out, or scared him, I don't know), esp. a human. I have delt with dogs wanting to kill other dogs, & I had no issues training the dog to behave. But bitting a human in aggression, which brings out my fear, I don't know where to start. But from now on, Mr. Biggles is NEVER going to be allowed near strangers, in fear he may bite for no reason... Unless there is a way to correct this, or learn WHY he did it...

I cannot tell Chad that he bit me, becasue Mr. Biggles will be PTS no questions asked. Chad will NOT put up with a dog bitting a human for no reason like that & I don't blame him or others for putting a dog down for bitting like that... BUT I like to give dogs a 2ed chance, esp since hes a rescue & we have no idea if he lived through hell or not. There was also no blood drawn, but I don't think he can bite hard enough to draw blood regardless...

So I really need help in this department & I can't take Mr. Biggle to a behavourist because Chad will find out that he Bit me & that'll be the end of Mr. Biggles.

We know with Bear that she can get testy with toys. She has never snapped/bitten, but if she did, she wouldn't be PTS over that, because she had a reason, its not a good reason, but atleast we know why she did it & can correct it. We have been working hard with her on this issue & we have had awesome success! No more snarling, & shes ok with a toy being taken away from her. She still wont drop on command, but if you push on her tongue, she'll spit it out willingly & wont snap to try to take it back.

But Mr. Biggles had no reason to bite, so I don't know how to correct it. I'm so stressed over this as I'm VERY against human bitting dogs, so I'm kind of stuck in what to do. But if he bites again like that, I'll be forced to tell Chad & Mr. Biggles will be put down.

My mind is all over the place & I'm still in a bit of a panic, so I hope what I typed makes sence.. If I left anything out, please ask, cause like I said the brain is still in a panic & thinking isn't as easy as it should be.

[borzoimom]

Well a bite is a bite.. Can Mr.Biggles see okay? And any chance the pillow scared him before hand or so much bigger than he is, he didnt see you coming and felt trapped?
I would get a behaviorist. I am afraid over the internet, aggression is not something that should be solved here. We can not know all things- but this is odd. Does Mr.Biggles know to give something back, and did you say this "cue word" as you took the pillow.. Also- did Mr. Biggles think he was in trouble for the pillow, and when you grabbed him, out of defense bit you?
Please get a behaviorist- or trainer- but meanwhile put those thoughts in your mind as they will need to know the whole story and exactly what happened.

[Freedom]

Hmm, so he bit your arm or hand, but did not brake the skin? As if he was saying, "hey, no get outta my way, I'm not stopping here with this insane pillow which has taken on a life of its own!" Did he just leave "dents," teeth indentations? Or did he break the skin but it didn't bleed? Like a scrape.

[borzoimom]

Wait- maybe I am confused- but isnt this the same dog that you just put a shock collar on???

[king2005]

Well a bite is a bite.. Can Mr.Biggles see okay? And any chance the pillow scared him before hand or so much bigger than he is, he didnt see you coming and felt trapped?
I would get a behaviorist. I am afraid over the internet, aggression is not something that should be solved here. We can not know all things- but this is odd. Does Mr.Biggles know to give something back, and did you say this "cue word" as you took the pillow.. Also- did Mr. Biggles think he was in trouble for the pillow, and when you grabbed him, out of defense bit you?
Please get a behaviorist- or trainer- but meanwhile put those thoughts in your mind as they will need to know the whole story and exactly what happened.

I don't understand why he felt trapped, cause hes removed from his crate many times a day.

If I let a behavourist deal with Mr. Biggles bitting, Chad will have him PTS for bitting. I don't want Mr. Biggles PTS, but I don't want him bitting either. I'm so stuck :(

Mr. Biggles eyes look really good & he can follow a tiny spot of light all over the place while chasing it (the only toy he likes).



Hmm, so he bit your arm or hand, but did not brake the skin? As if he was saying, "hey, no get outta my way, I'm not stopping here with this insane pillow which has taken on a life of its own!" Did he just leave "dents," teeth indentations? Or did he break the skin but it didn't bleed? Like a scrape.

He bit the meat inbetween my thumb & index finger. His whole mouth was on my hand, so it was a bite not a nip. He bit down hard & I pulled my hand out of his mouth.. I don't know if he would have bitten again, but I moved really fast & had him in his crate before he knew the door was even closed. It wasn't like he was standing his ground & I put my hand towards him... he was rushing out & I had my hand out to stop him.

His jaw is pretty screwed up, so I don't think he can physically bite hard.

[borzoimom]

Wait- maybe I am confused- but isnt this the same dog that you just put a shock collar on???
... is it? Because if so, I have an idea why this happened..

[king2005]

Wait- maybe I am confused- but isnt this the same dog that you just put a shock collar on???

Its not on him right now. I wanted to see if he would remain quiet over night & he did

[king2005]

Its not on him right now. I wanted to see if he would remain quiet over night & he did

But he doesn't hate the collar.. he gets all wiggly butt when I go to put it on him... I honestly don't think he knows its the collar shocking him.

[borzoimom]

Its not on him right now. I wanted to see if he would remain quiet over night & he did
It doesnt matter- I would bet you this is what happened- the dog has already learned that a bark makes a shock- surprise or pain- its a shock.. The dog would have barked at you when you tried to grab him, and dogs are not stupid- knew a shock was coming- and retaliated against you... I WOULD BET YOU.. Its called " displaced" or" misplaced" aggression...

[borzoimom]

And- the dog has not had the collar long enough to know it only happens if the collar is on-...

[borzoimom]

And- with all the sudden changes you just did, the dog feels his world is turned upside down- and is defensive..

[king2005]

It doesnt matter- I would bet you this is what happened- the dog has already learned that a bark makes a shock- surprise or pain- its a shock.. The dog would have barked at you when you tried to grab him, and dogs are not stupid- knew a shock was coming- and retaliated against you... I WOULD BET YOU.. Its called " displaced" or" misplaced" aggression...

Ohhhhh... Shat, not good... But he does know he can whin, howl, & do low barks, as we were playing with him last night & thats what he was doing.

I just thought of something.. I SCREAMED at Andrew last night. Mr. Biggles was on our couch & Andrew command him off & Mr. Biggles ignored him like always. So Andrew grabbed Mr. Biggles shock collar & tried to pull him off the couch, but Mr. Biggles was pulling back as it was hurting his throat (DUH) 3 flat objects would hurt my throat too of pulled on like that :mad:

I was pretty pissed off, as I told both guys NOT to touch his shock collar period, it has to be taken off before his harness is put on & his regular collar has to stay off until he no longer needs the shock collar.

Do you think his throat was still sore from being pulled hard like that?? My poor little man :( I hate how Andrew never ever listens & never uses his head :mad: :mad: :mad:

[king2005]

And- with all the sudden changes you just did, the dog feels his world is turned upside down- and is defensive..

Never thought of that... Hmmm... I'll let him be, act as if it never happened & continue with the new regular routine. Poor guy is prob all frazzled, I feel bad :(

[borzoimom]

Never thought of that... Hmmm... I'll let him be, act as if it never happened & continue with the new regular routine. Poor guy is prob all frazzled, I feel bad :(
I would bet my bottom dollar this is what happened.. You need to back off in the changes- try to get the trust back...

[king2005]

I would bet my bottom dollar this is what happened.. You need to back off in the changes- try to get the trust back...

I'll keep the current changes as is, but wont add anymore, or change anything in order not to frazzle him even more...

I still feel bad & didn't mean to frazzle him. I ment well :(

[borzoimom]

And make a rule what that collar is used for.. Its not to terriorize the dogs.. You bought that collar for barking- thats it..
This is why I disapprove of shock collars.. Its too easy for the dog to have displaced/misplaced aggression problems if not used for one specific thing.. Even then- ANY TRAINING takes time.. Even a shock collar is NOT a instant cure..

[king2005]

And make a rule what that collar is used for.. Its not to terriorize the dogs.. You bought that collar for barking- thats it..
This is why I disapprove of shock collars.. Its too easy for the dog to have displaced/misplaced aggression problems if not used for one specific thing.. Even then- ANY TRAINING takes time.. Even a shock collar is NOT a instant cure..

I never wanted to go that route as you know. I hate the bloody thing. But I was desperate to get him to stop barking in a forcefully fast time.

Pleas tell me I didn't ruin him permently & that I can get my little man back?

I have lots of time to correct all problems he may have or get (just not the barking) So I'm willing to try just about anything (except the behavourist, as stated above, unless I want Mr. biggles PTS, which I don't!!!)

[kimlovescats]

I know you are trying to figure everything out and as quickly as possible. I just feel bad because Mr. Biggles has to be completely stressed and confused by all of this. For whatever reason, he was sent to the shelter and now he is in a new home with all of these changes. I wish you both had more time to just relax and enjoy eachother!

Hugs,
Kim

[king2005]

I know you are trying to figure everything out and as quickly as possible. I just feel bad because Mr. Biggles has to be completely stressed and confused by all of this. For whatever reason, he was sent to the shelter and now he is in a new home with all of these changes. I wish you both had more time to just relax and enjoy eachother!

Hugs,
Kim


I feel terrible about the whole shock collar thing & the crate thing. Thats why I try to have just US time after I have dinner. I'll lay on OUR couch & allow him onto my lap. He'll snuggle ontop of my chest, give millions of kisses, & will passout with all the petting. We'll lay there while I watch 2-3 episodes of Stargate Atlantis season 3.. which is nearly 2 hrs I think. Then I'll put him on the dog couch beside Bear & he'll curl up with her.

hes also always at my feet when I'm at my computer, so I know he doesn't hate me.

[borzoimom]

I never wanted to go that route as you know. I hate the bloody thing. But I was desperate to get him to stop barking in a forcefully fast time.

Pleas tell me I didn't ruin him permently & that I can get my little man back?

I have lots of time to correct all problems he may have or get (just not the barking) So I'm willing to try just about anything (except the behavourist, as stated above, unless I want Mr. biggles PTS, which I don't!!!)
YOur little man is shaken up. For your protection I would make sure you do not-
* grab him suddenly
* prevent things that you would out of impulse to it. Like- closing the door to the room you were in would have kept him from running upstairs..
* spend time with him like sitting on your lap etc.. and give warning when its time to get up etc.
* Remember- he is 8 years old- ..
I still think a behaviorist would help, but I see your point.. I personally would not use a shock collar- as I have seen it causes too many after effect problems such as this one. Your dog learned the night with andrew that a raised voice can set that collar off .. You put him in a defensive posture- and he learned from the night before- I am going to get shocked..
As far as how long- its hard to say. We have had femka now for over 2 years, and raised voices still scares her- she will leave the room because she lived previously in a house were people fought all the time.. And this even includes football games! Raised voices- femka leaves the room..
What I did with her- is find the level at she could tolerate- added a little " happy voice" then treat ( she loves cookie bites) - etc.. Little by little she has come up to tolerance and excited voices- but its still there.. I may not be able to totally remove 5 years of fear- but at least she is okay with improvement.
I am hoping this is just a one time over reaction on her part. After all- all those changes you listed on the other thread- it did change alot in his world at one time. " Check your step" in these situations- stop and think.. Do not set the dog up to fail. Set the dog up to win- like calling the dog to you from the pillow- then remove the pillow. You also did not state that you caught the dog with the torn up pillow. I am assuming this was after the fact. If you did need to correct the dog with the pillow- this would have been a better scenio.. ( making this up of course because I do not know the lay out of the room etc..) " shut the room door so the dog can not dive up the stairs- ' oh mr what did you do- open crate door- if the dog leaves the crate make no move towards the dogs- remove the pillow.." put the pillow enough in a pile for later clean up- come on mr. lets go outside....
If you didnt catch him tearing it up- open the crate- come on lets go outside.. and leave the room.. And better yet- do not put the dog something he can tear up to start with..

[king2005]

YOur little man is shaken up. For your protection I would make sure you do not-
* grab him suddenly
* prevent things that you would out of impulse to it. Like- closing the door to the room you were in would have kept him from running upstairs..
* spend time with him like sitting on your lap etc.. and give warning when its time to get up etc.
* Remember- he is 8 years old- ..
I still think a behaviorist would help, but I see your point.. I personally would not use a shock collar- as I have seen it causes too many after effect problems such as this one. Your dog learned the night with andrew that a raised voice can set that collar off .. You put him in a defensive posture- and he learned from the night before- I am going to get shocked..
As far as how long- its hard to say. We have had femka now for over 2 years, and raised voices still scares her- she will leave the room because she lived previously in a house were people fought all the time.. And this even includes football games! Raised voices- femka leaves the room..
What I did with her- is find the level at she could tolerate- added a little " happy voice" then treat ( she loves cookie bites) - etc.. Little by little she has come up to tolerance and excited voices- but its still there.. I may not be able to totally remove 5 years of fear- but at least she is okay with improvement.
I am hoping this is just a one time over reaction on her part. After all- all those changes you listed on the other thread- it did change alot in his world at one time. " Check your step" in these situations- stop and think.. Do not set the dog up to fail. Set the dog up to win- like calling the dog to you from the pillow- then remove the pillow. You also did not state that you caught the dog with the torn up pillow. I am assuming this was after the fact. If you did need to correct the dog with the pillow- this would have been a better scenio.. ( making this up of course because I do not know the lay out of the room etc..) " shut the room door so the dog can not dive up the stairs- ' oh mr what did you do- open crate door- if the dog leaves the crate make no move towards the dogs- remove the pillow.." put the pillow enough in a pile for later clean up- come on mr. lets go outside....
If you didnt catch him tearing it up- open the crate- come on lets go outside.. and leave the room.. And better yet- do not put the dog something he can tear up to start with..

Saddly the livingroom & office is quite open & the stairs are right there. I now deffently have to get a babygate to stop him from going upstairs period. Or put the white board there Which would be easier on us right now. Hopefully he wont just run into the Office & go in there instead. He likes to go potty when I'm not looking or cannot see him :rolleyes:

I didn't catch him in the act & I knew it was my fault for leaving it there (I wasn't thinking), thats why I didn't plan on scolding him for it.

I wont make anymore fast movements near him, unless its for safety reasons (duh).

I'll also leave the shock collar off of him until he starts his barking fits again.. hopefully he'll be ok in that department & wont need that uncomfy shock collar on him anymore & can wear his sexy Harley Davidson Spiked Leather Collar again.

I wont give up on him easly, as I know hes had a very rough 3 months & being in my home following my rules isn't easy. But I'm sooooo lucky to have PT to get advice & to figure things out & to get options & opinions, that help me make my choices. I'm sure Mr. Biggles will be thankful later.. just not today

[Freedom]

Hey, Mr. B IS going to forgive you! And he IS going to learn all this new stuff! He definitely knows who feeds him and that life is good with you. So don't beat yourself up, things happen with training. It is a learning process for ALL of you.


We got a baby gate before Sugar arrived, to keep the cats safe. (As it turned out, Sugar's personality is such that we didn't need it.) I bought one at WalMart for $15. BUT you need to look at where you are going to put it, and measure the width. You want to be sure the one you buy will expand to at least that wide. AND think about Mr. B - is he a jumper? We knew in advance that Sugar doesn't jump. Not sure if she can, but the breed are not great at jumping. So I knew I did not need anything high to stop her from crossing it. I think Mr. B is all or part JRT and I think they jump. BUT if you are putting across stairs, then you may not need too much height. Sorry to give you so many MORE things to think about!

[king2005]

Hey, Mr. B IS going to forgive you! And he IS going to learn all this new stuff! He definitely knows who feeds him and that life is good with you. So don't beat yourself up, things happen with training. It is a learning process for ALL of you.


We got a baby gate before Sugar arrived, to keep the cats safe. (As it turned out, Sugar's personality is such that we didn't need it.) I bought one at WalMart for $15. BUT you need to look at where you are going to put it, and measure the width. You want to be sure the one you buy will expand to at least that wide. AND think about Mr. B - is he a jumper? We knew in advance that Sugar doesn't jump. Not sure if she can, but the breed are not great at jumping. So I knew I did not need anything high to stop her from crossing it. I think Mr. B is all or part JRT and I think they jump. BUT if you are putting across stairs, then you may not need too much height. Sorry to give you so many MORE things to think about!

The first step is kind of like a mini floor. I want to put the gate there so its higher up from the floor. He doesn't seem like a big jumper when he doesn't have to. He will jump onto the beds & they are high up.. but he really has to try hard to get onto Chad & Andrew's, as its higher up. So hopefully the gate being higher up then their bed will keep him from jumping it.