Two stories about medicine that trouble me.

[RICHARD]

I was dozing with the radio on and I heard about some doctor who took a dog and gave it an aneursym to demonstrate a medical device to a group...he then had the dog euthanized,

I am sure that was what I heard........But the facts may be twisted..

Plus who has heard about the pillow angel case from the Pac Northwest?

http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?invocationType=wscreen-searchbox&query=pillow%20angel


This really creeps me out...especaillay the fact that the father blogged a comment about now wanting his daughter to be 'molested' as she got older!!!

[TamanduaGirl]

http://blog.sciam.com/index.php?title=title_5&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1

[lizbud]

I was dozing with the radio on and I heard about some doctor who took a dog and gave it an aneursym to demonstrate a medical device to a group...he then had the dog euthanized,

I am sure that was what I heard........But the facts may be twisted..




I believe you got the facts right.

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=120031

I had read on a story on the" pillow angel" case a while ago on Slate. They
had a link to the father's blog/ diary. I was shocked at first, but the more I
read the reasoning behind the parents decision, the more I would support
their decision to intervene on her behalf. It's a very sad situation.

[Twisterdog]

I had read on a story on the" pillow angel" case a while ago on Slate. They had a link to the father's blog/ diary. I was shocked at first, but the more I read the reasoning behind the parents decision, the more I would support their decision to intervene on her behalf. It's a very sad situation.

I felt the same exact way. My first reaction was horror ... but the more I read, the more I understood their reasoning and logic. I think it's their right, frankly. This girl is NEVER going to mature or grow up mentally or emotionally. Her parents are 100% responsible for everything from feeding her to changing her diapers ... and they will be until the day either she or they die. I would urge everyone to read all the details on this before making a judgement.

[RICHARD]

So I guess if you have a dog that runs away all the time you can take it to a vet to have it's legs taken off?

Isn't that the reason you have kids?

To take care of them no matter what?

What a crock of crap.

It's all about having the easy way out. :eek:

[Cataholic]

It's all about having the easy way out. :eek:

There is not any easy way out for these people. I couldn't imagine their heavy, heavy burden.

There but for the grace of God, go I. :o

[RICHARD]

There is not any easy way out for these people. I couldn't imagine their heavy, heavy burden.

There but for the grace of God, go I. :o

Right, there was no easy way out.

So, they went to a med ethics board and filleted their daughter so they could save their backs and get a 'pillow angel".


Ugh, even that term makes me sick.

Angels were meant to fly-not to be earthboiund, caressed by 180 count cotton.

[Edwina's Secretary]

To take care of them no matter what?



Who are you to define what is "taking care of them" in this case???

What a painful situation they are in. And what use is a uterus to this poor child. I would hardly compare that to taking the legs off a dog so it won't run. Why don't you compare it to neutering your cat or dog?

My heart breaks for this family who know a pain that is unimaginable to the rest of us....

Judge not...lest you be judged....

[lizbud]

Richard, you are not a woman nor a mother, so how in the world can you
ever understand what this mother's reasons & feelings are?

[RICHARD]

Richard, you are not a woman nor a mother, so how in the world can you
ever understand what this mother's reasons & feelings are?

Neither,

I did take care of my dad who was diabetic, on dialysis, an amputee and had alzheimer's.

I changed the dressings on his foot and watched gangrene take his toes.



Hmmmmm,

I guess I know what it's like to be a son.

Does that count? :confused:

To me it was a matter of making his life more comfortable --he did a little for me, so why not return the favor?


----------------


You are right, what is a uterus to a kid, breast buds and hormones for that matter?


Because I don't have indoor plumbing that makes me unable to feel?


Geez, that smacks of sexism....just a little bit.

It seems that I always get hit with that arguement.

I guess I am not entitled to an opinion because of my genetic makeup...sorry.

-----------------------------

I see now that it's a quality of life issue.

"We took those steps to make our daughter more portable.
She won't have her period or breasts, easy cleanup and no bra."

She'll spend the rest of her time on earth as a stunted shell lying on a pillow.


Lovely.

[Twisterdog]

So I guess if you have a dog that runs away all the time you can take it to a vet to have it's legs taken off?

Isn't that the reason you have kids?

To take care of them no matter what?

What a crock of crap.

It's all about having the easy way out. :eek:


Richard, do I recall reading in one of your former posts that you do not have children?

I have children, but not special needs children, and certianly not in the extreme case of this poor girl and her family. NONE of us is EVER going to know what these people go through 24 hours per day, 365 days per year.

What good would come of this bedridden, almost vegetative child to begin to menstruate? She is never going to bear children, or have sex. She is never going to be more than she is right now. Why put her through that? Why put her parents through it? What could would come of her being several inches taller? She can't stand up. What could come of her being fifty pounds heavier? Answer - bedsores.

You are quick and harsh to judge things you know NOTHING about.

[RICHARD]

Richard, do I recall reading in one of your former posts that you do not have children?


You are quick and harsh to judge things you know NOTHING about.


No, and I have bled.

I do need kids to have feelings... :eek:


You are correct, I wouldn't know about kids.

I always thought they were baby goats.

[Cataholic]

Richard,
This is the second time, in most recent history, that I can remember you doing EXACTLY what you are doing right now. You posted something you thought all of us would be so all over, and now, that you realize you "oops", you are going to try to humor your way out of it.

Stop digging the hole. Your interpretation is so out of control. Your comments illustrate you have no idea what is going on in these people's lives. You are knee-jerk reacting, time after time. Just stop.

[lizbud]

Neither,

I did take care of my dad who was diabetic, on dialysis, an amputee and had alzheimer's.

I changed the dressings on his foot and watched gangrene take his toes.


To me it was a matter of making his life more comfortable --he did a little for me, so why not return the favor?

-I see now that it's a quality of life issue.


I am so sorry about your Dad. Wouldn't you have spared him that pain and suffering if you could have? :(


These parents have kept their daughter in mind when making these medical
decisions for her.How could a woman with the mind of a 6 mo old baby have
handled the pain and discomfort of her monthly cycle & the risk of uterine
cancer later on. She does wear thick straps around her chest for lifting in and out of her bed by her parents. The mother said the women in her family
are all big breasted woman. That, and the risk of breast cancer has also
been avoided They too considered their daughters quality of life.

[RICHARD]

Richard,
This is the second time, in most recent history, that I can remember you doing EXACTLY what you are doing right now. You posted something you thought all of us would be so all over, and now, that you realize you "oops", you are going to try to humor your way out of it.

Just stop.

Do me a favor?

Just stop reading my posts. Like most opinionated people I don't flip flop when the wind blows. My position is that if you are not prepared to have kids and all the crap that goes along with them, bow out. I bowed.

Customizing a child to a familial situation is tasteless and sad comment about what medicine in our country has come to. Just like in-vitro, let's implant a dozen eggs, waste 6 and pop out a litter with all kinds of problems.
d


I think I am smart enough to know that I couldn't handle having children and
I don't feel good about arguing with the only mother in the United States.



---------------------------------------

Liz,

Was the Med community sure that her endocrine functions were intact?

Here's my hypothetical....


If I had married and my wife had a stroke and was veggied out-

I would want a hyst-to keep her from having kids.
Breast implants- Laser bikini waxing - and a feeding tube, I don't want her to gain anymore weight while she lies there.


You see, It's really difficult for me, as her husband to go out and date again-I am married, and it's convienent for me not to enter the singles scene again.


So I want to keep her 'viable' because I married her in sickness and in health.

And nothing over a large "d", ok? :confused: :rolleyes:

[Cataholic]

Do me a favor?

Just stop reading my posts. Like most opinionated people I don't flip flop when the wind blows. My position is that if you are not prepared to have kids and all the crap that goes along with them, bow out. I bowed.

Customizing a child to a familial situation is tasteless and sad comment about what medicine in our country has come to. Just like in-vitro, let's implant a dozen eggs, waste 6 and pop out a litter with all kinds of problems.
d


I think I am smart enough to know that I couldn't handle having children and
I don't feel good about arguing with the only mother in the United States.



Yeah, I don't think you could have handled having kids. There is just too much of the unknown for your comfort level. These parents **could** have opted out, be it abortion, instutionalizing, or in home around the clock care. But, they didn't.

It is your insensitivity to this situation (and others) that is shocking.

[lizbud]

Liz,

Here's my hypothetical....


If I had married and my wife had a stroke and was veggied out-

I would want a hyst-to keep her from having kids.
Breast implants- Laser bikini waxing - and a feeding tube, I don't want her to gain anymore weight while she lies there.


You see, It's really difficult for me, as her husband to go out and date again-I am married, and it's convienent for me not to enter the singles scene again.


So I want to keep her 'viable' because I married her in sickness and in health.

And nothing over a large "d", ok? :confused: :rolleyes:

What a perverted thing to say.I told you that you wouldn't understand.
I do think you have a right to an opinion, but still believe you can never
truly understand all that went into the decision by her parents.

[Marigold2]

Hi Richard,
I did read the article. As a mother of three I totally agree with the parents. This child has the mental age of a three month old. The parents are not even sure that she recognizes them. Being a woman I know that sometimes having ones period is very very painful. If this little girl was in pain once a month due to her period her parents wouldn't know. I and many other woman have suffered and had to take days off of work, stay in bed, use pain meds, hot water bottles and sometimes even go on the pill to relieve the pain, cramping. I think if you ask any woman if she wants her period 99% will save NO.
Another issue is the health and welfare of the parents. How will they be able to lift and clean their daughter as she got bigger and they got older. What if one of the parents became ill or died? There are so many things to take into account. Luckly this is a free country and NO ONE has the right to make that decison for them but them. No one else has to have that burden. They are the ones to get up in the middle of the night and do what must be done. I doubt very much if they have had one peaceful nights sleep or one truly happy day since this all happened and they found out the extent of their daughters illness. And yes, no matter how much you love your child it is a burden. No one says "gee when I grow up I hope I have a handycapped child" Thank Goodness your morals cannot be placed upon others. For I would not want anyone to have to live that way, unless it was their choice. We all have to face God, if we believe in him when our time comes. If you die with no regrets that is great. Let others make that choice for themselves without nasty comments or harsh words. If anything these people need support, understanding and some help. You seem very angry, why is that?? Maybe taking care of you dad made you so angry. Maybe you feel life passed you by. Each day is a new gift. Enjoy Richard, be happy be healthly and allow others to do the same. Kindness is a gift that can never be given too often.

[Cataholic]

Marigold 2, what a moving post.

[CathyBogart]

Guys, don't act like someone has to pop out a kid in order to have intelligent opinions about how other people take care of their kids. I may disagree with Richard's opinion in this case, but I hate the argument that anyone who hasn't conformed to society's expectations to reproduce at a certain age can't have opinions on such matters.

[Cataholic]

Guys, don't act like someone has to pop out a kid in order to have intelligent opinions about how other people take care of their kids. I may disagree with Richard's opinion in this case, but I hate the argument that anyone who hasn't conformed to society's expectations to reproduce at a certain age can't have opinions on such matters.

No one is saying anything about conforming to society's expectations to reproduce....it isn't always the topic of conversation.

One can know how hot a fire burns intellectually, but, it is quite a different experience to feel the flame. Like it or not, there is a difference. No one is better or worse, because of a child, but, in this situation, with a child born of such significant limitations, a parent's "hurt" (such a weak word for this situation) is difficult to convey.

That you recognize the parents situation says much about you.

[lizbud]

Hi Richard,
I did read the article. As a mother of three I totally agree with the parents. This child has the mental age of a three month old. The parents are not even sure that she recognizes them. Being a woman I know that sometimes having ones period is very very painful. If this little girl was in pain once a month due to her period her parents wouldn't know. I and many other woman have suffered and had to take days off of work, stay in bed, use pain meds, hot water bottles and sometimes even go on the pill to relieve the pain, cramping. I think if you ask any woman if she wants her period 99% will save NO.
Another issue is the health and welfare of the parents. How will they be able to lift and clean their daughter as she got bigger and they got older. What if one of the parents became ill or died? There are so many things to take into account. Luckly this is a free country and NO ONE has the right to make that decison for them but them. No one else has to have that burden. They are the ones to get up in the middle of the night and do what must be done. I doubt very much if they have had one peaceful nights sleep or one truly happy day since this all happened and they found out the extent of their daughters illness. And yes, no matter how much you love your child it is a burden. No one says "gee when I grow up I hope I have a handycapped child" Thank Goodness your morals cannot be placed upon others. For I would not want anyone to have to live that way, unless it was their choice. We all have to face God, if we believe in him when our time comes. If you die with no regrets that is great. Let others make that choice for themselves without nasty comments or harsh words. If anything these people need support, understanding and some help. You seem very angry, why is that?? Maybe taking care of you dad made you so angry. Maybe you feel life passed you by. Each day is a new gift. Enjoy Richard, be happy be healthly and allow others to do the same. Kindness is a gift that can never be given too often.

This is an excellent post.Says it all & very well too. :)

[RICHARD]

Yeah, I don't think you could have handled having kids. There is just too much of the unknown for your comfort level. These parents **could** have opted out, be it abortion, instutionalizing, or in home around the clock care. But, they didn't.

It is your insensitivity to this situation (and others) that is shocking.


I asked you politely to stop reading my posts.

I recognized very early that I wasn't the kind of person to father, parent and care for children (Or baby goats for the matter...).

You do not know me so I find your mention of my "comfort level" to very amusing. Are you trying the old "back off with humor: trick? :eek:

----------

Have you ever tried to clean the rear end of an 80 year old man?
Or pick him up to get him to the shower?
Have you ever watched anyone waste away froms AIDS?
have you lost your father and six months later lost your fiance?


MG,

I worked in healthcare for 30 years. Altho I didn't have close patient contact I saw more pain just walking the halls of the buildings.

CB,

Thank you for recognizing my right to speak my twisted mind.


Liz,
Perverted...You forgot selfish.

Isn't my proposal tantamount to what those parents are asking for their loved one?

You see that what I wrote is extreme - I think the child's parents requests are in the same vein.

The annoyance that you feel towards my scenario could be the same that I feel towards the topic.

And altho my feelings lean towards the paternal, I never felt the desire to sire offspring and I have no kids (NOT EVEN GONNA USE THAT STUPID JOKE, "That I know of.....") I find that having an opinion disqualified because I never have had fill-in-the-blank to be the highest form of intolerance.

[cassiesmom]

Quoted from Time.com article about this child: "doctors removed her uterus to prevent ... pregnancy in the event of rape".

I don't agree with some of the procedures performed on this child to accommodate her caregiving needs. The procedures have been done, so it's a moot point. We'll see what happens as she gets older as a result of exposure to high estrogen doses. But the above quote makes me the most angry, because there was a young woman in a nursing home here in the Chicago suburbs who became pregnant after she was sexually assaulted by a nursing assistant. She lacked the mental capacity to consent to sex with him, and she lacked the physical ability to resist him. The staff and parents had no idea that she was pregnant until she was sent to the hospital because of problems with her feeding tube. At that point she was 28 weeks pregnant. The child was delivered by C-section and placed with the young woman's parents. The nursing assistant was charged with a sexual assault.

To even insinuate the potential that young Ashley might be raped and consequently become pregnant makes me want to run outside and scream. The parents chose to sterilize her, in part, because they became aware that the potential for this existed. What has this world come to, that health care providers are so untrustworthy that drastic measures such as a hysterectomy on a 9-year-old are required.

[RICHARD]

To even insinuate the potential that young Ashley might be raped and consequently become pregnant makes me want to run outside and scream. The parents chose to sterilize her, in part, because they became aware that the potential for this existed. What has this world come to, that health care providers are so untrustworthy that drastic measures such as a hysterectomy on a 9-year-old are required.

Have you come over to the darkside, where I hang out? :eek:

A pretty dark thought, considering the child is cared for at home.

And the reason that I post the link. :confused:

[Cataholic]

I asked you politely to stop reading my posts.

I recognized very early that I wasn't the kind of person to father, parent and care for children (Or baby goats for the matter...).

You do not know me so I find your mention of my "comfort level" to very amusing. Are you trying the old "back off with humor: trick? :eek:

-

Wait a minute, back up, and stop the presses. We now have to KNOW someone to have an opinion? LOL. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. I know you at least as well as you know the parents of this child.

You haven't a clue what these parents are going through. Your posts indicate that clearly. Nothing about this situation is funny. I am not using humor, I was quite serious with what I posted concerning your posts. When I am wrong, I admit it, retract the statement, and let it go. I don't dig in deeper.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Guys, don't act like someone has to pop out a kid in order to have intelligent opinions about how other people take care of their kids. I may disagree with Richard's opinion in this case, but I hate the argument that anyone who hasn't conformed to society's expectations to reproduce at a certain age can't have opinions on such matters.


I have no children and expressed an opinion. Perhaps I cannot know the anguish of these parents, but I imagine and sympathize nonetheless.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Guys, don't act like someone has to pop out a kid in order to have intelligent opinions about how other people take care of their kids. I may disagree with Richard's opinion in this case, but I hate the argument that anyone who hasn't conformed to society's expectations to reproduce at a certain age can't have opinions on such matters.


I have no children and expressed an opinion. Perhaps I cannot know the anguish of these parents, but I imagine and sympathize nonetheless.

I don't think anyone is suggesting you must be a parent to understand...rather I think they are suggesting a mental stroll in the parents' shoes.....

[RICHARD]

I don't think anyone is suggesting you must be a parent to understand...rather I think they are suggesting a mental stroll in the parents' shoes.....

Well that certainly does me no good.

I don't get the pinch of new leather,
The blisters or cramped toes.

I think it's pretty brash to tell me that I cannot make an judgement because I have no children or baby goats.

Smashing you thumb with a hammer is one kind of pain.
Letting a loved one go is another kind of pain.
Customizing your child to escape pain is pretty effing selfish.

I am truly surprised that they didn't ask American Tourister for a
carrying bag for the kid...the kind on wheels so they dodn't hurt their backs.

[Pam]

WOW! I had not heard of this story until now. I am very conflicted about the whole thing and truly can see both sides. Of course being a mother maybe clouds my judgment a little. On the one hand I can see wanting to alleviate any pain for my child (what mother wouldn't), but it is quite another thing to subject a child to major surgery. Just having my daughter *go under* at the oral surgeon's office for wisdom teeth extraction was enough anxiety for me to go through.

My mother has been in a care facility now for about five years. In that time I have seen sights that are heartbreaking. One woman stands out. She is probably in her mid-30's and obviously with some serious neurological problems. She spends her days in a wheelchair amongst a mostly elderly population. I wonder what her parents would think of this story. I cannot even begin to judge the actions of these parents because, thank God, I am not in their situation. Though my mom is in an excellent facility, I have heard the horror stories that we all read about concerning nursing home abuse. I just don't know the answer. It would take the wisdom of Solomon to rule on this and none of us are qualified.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Customizing your child to escape pain is pretty effing selfish.



When my parents had my tonsils removed so I would be sick less and have less pain....all this time I thought they did it for me....Now you say, RICHARD, it was a selfish act (effing selfish in fact) on their part...so they could go square dancing without worrying about me getting sick I guess?

[cassiesmom]

Have you come over to the darkside, where I hang out? :eek:

A pretty dark thought, considering the child is cared for at home.

And the reason that I post the link. :confused:


What I mean is, if Ashley's parents ever became unable to care for her and she had to be placed in a long-term care facility - or, even if something short-term happened and she wound up in the hospital. I would like to think that she would be safe from becoming a sexual assault victim in either case, and it makes me both sad and angry that I can no longer do that. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Because of medical technology, people with disabilities are living longer; so the parents found themselves in the position of having to make decisions that might not have been necessary before. It also makes me wonder what will happen in the future.

[RICHARD]

When my parents had my tonsils removed so I would be sick less and have less pain....all this time I thought they did it for me....Now you say, RICHARD, it was a selfish act (effing selfish in fact) on their part...so they could go square dancing without worrying about me getting sick I guess?

Those pesky tonsils that bleed monthy?

How was the ice cream?
--------------

There is a huge difference between a tonsillectomy appendectomy or putting
PE tubes into an ear of a kid that will continue to grow and carving out the repro organs and giving the kid hormones to stunt her growth.

Why not go for the Deluxe package?


Catheterization, a colostomy bag and the tonsillectomy for the pill0w angel?

No more sore throat and soiled diapers?

Make it real easy.

[Edwina's Secretary]

There is a huge difference between a tonsillectomy


And what is the difference? Organ that will never be used? That will only cause pain?

There are far more "selfish" (your word NOT mine) decisions they could have made.

And you talk like menstruation is some great privilege....only a man... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[mike001]

Richard, after reading all of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you are on a soapbox.
How dare you judge these parents? They have chosen to sacrifice their lives for their child instead of opting to put her in an institution. To me that spells a lot of love and sacrifice on their part, plus the heartbreak they go through every day.
I for one was totally in favor of their decision. As they grow older it would be very hard to lift, carry and cope with this child. They had long discussions with specialists before coming to this decision and it was considered the best route for the child's welfare. If you think they did this without an ounce of suffering or guilt, think again. They did it so they could keep her safe at home. And in the event of their death, they knew she would be institutionalized, and took means to prevent any sexual abuse.
If you think this doesn't happen you're living in a bubble of your own making, I hate to be the one to burst it, but it happens even in nursing homes to the elderly patients who are unable to communicate.
Please get off your soapbox and educate yourself. This was their decision, not yours. Stop judging them as though what they did was a criminal offence.
I for one feel nothing but admiration and compassion for this family.
If you even know what compassion is, try to show some.
God will be their judge, you haven't been called on to do this. Maybe you should examine the reasons for all this hate you seem to bottle up inside.

[Cataholic]

He is just trolling here, folks. He **can't** back down, lest he appear 'wrong' for once again posting such insensitive posts. It happened once, that can be deemed a fluke. Twice? Nah...that might actually mean something.

[Lobodeb]

Wow! This is really an interesting story.

My brother is mentally and physically disabled. He is 34 years old, is 5' 3" tall and weighs 150 pounds. He is blind and unable to speak. He is ambulatory, but with assistance. He requires assistance with all ADLs. He wears Depends 24/7, but is on a toileting schedule. He's stubborn as hell and very abstinent and near impossible to lift on your own. When he's not cooperating, it takes three men to move him. If you startle him, he throws a great right hook. And his nails must be kept short otherwise they're half of an inch into your flesh. He has been beaten and both physically and sexually abused by his caretakers. We do not have the means or the skills required to care for him.

I once asked my mom if she knew he was going to be like this, if she would have had an abortion. Her reply? "Yes."

My point of talking about him is that he is extremely difficult (for lack of a better word) to care for. I tried working in an assisted living facility and couldn't do it. I worked in a house of 3 women. The times during their menstruation's was nauseating. Caring for yourself at this time of month is a pain in and of itself. Dealing with someone else's menses is in a league of its own. I am able to communicate my pain and discomfort, they hit, bit, kicked and scratched.

I can't imagine having to make these kinds of decisions for an ill child. I pray that I will never know what these people are going through. I will say this, though, having a hysterectomy doesn't guarantee no sexual abuse will come to this poor child. It just means there will be no evidence left behind if it does happen.

Richard, I understand feeling strongly about something, but I feel you're being a little defensive.

But this comment put me over the edge:

Because I don't have indoor plumbing that makes me unable to feel?


Geez, that smacks of sexism....just a little bit.

It seems that I always get hit with that argument.

I guess I am not entitled to an opinion because of my genetic makeup...sorry.



How is it that you can complain about sexism when you post this in a different thread?


Madam Speaker,

Men and women are created equal... until you try to keep your shoes dry doing Number 1!
:eek:


Why is that always a measure of equality?

I can't say I would or wouldn't do things differently if I was in this couple's shoes. I'll never know. Neither will you.

[critter crazy]

Richard, after reading all of your posts I have come to the conclusion that you are on a soapbox.
How dare you judge these parents? They have chosen to sacrifice their lives for their child instead of opting to put her in an institution. To me that spells a lot of love and sacrifice on their part, plus the heartbreak they go through every day.
I for one was totally in favor of their decision. As they grow older it would be very hard to lift, carry and cope with this child. They had long discussions with specialists before coming to this decision and it was considered the best route for the child's welfare. If you think they did this without an ounce of suffering or guilt, think again. They did it so they could keep her safe at home. And in the event of their death, they knew she would be institutionalized, and took means to prevent any sexual abuse.
If you think this doesn't happen you're living in a bubble of your own making, I hate to be the one to burst it, but it happens even in nursing homes to the elderly patients who are unable to communicate.
Please get off your soapbox and educate yourself. This was their decision, not yours. Stop judging them as though what they did was a criminal offence.
I for one feel nothing but admiration and compassion for this family.
If you even know what compassion is, try to show some.
God will be their judge, you haven't been called on to do this. Maybe you should examine the reasons for all this hate you seem to bottle up inside.

I agree 100%!!!

[K9soul]

While I am not in agreement with Richard's perceptions in this particular case, I respect his view on it. I don't believe he should judge this girl's parents but I also don't believe he should in turn be judged either. It is one thing to argue and disagree with a belief or an opinion but it seems to me in some posts that his heart and character are being questioned and judged here as a whole.

Ultimately I don't think anyone can imagine the weight or considerations of such a decision unless they are in these parents' shoes and know all the intricate details that there is no way we could ever know.

[Lobodeb]

Well said!

My reason for quoting the other thread was to point out that even in lightheartedness (if that was the intention), sexism was thrown out there.

I, personally think no less of Richard for his opinions on this thread. They're very strong, but that's ok in my mind because he's standing up for what he believes in. It's natural to come off as defensive when you feel you're being attacked. I love to read Richard's threads. He never fails to amuse me. I think he is a very brilliant and witty man.

As I said earlier, I was a little put off by some of his comments, but that's why this thread is in the dog house, right?

I don't think I passed any judgements, and if I did, I apologize. That wasn't my intention.

[RICHARD]

Thanks.
No need to apologize.

When people agree they say, "Don't back down, stand for what you believe in."

When they disagree it's "Shut up and sit down!'

People who work with dependent children/spouses/others are a special breed.

It's a tough thankless job-I have had peripheral experience in it.

-----------

Having kids is a real job. Caring for them in every case is harder yet.

To me, there is no love greater than the care of a loved one. Cleaning up after them, caring for them before, is part of that love. It's harder to care for someone you do not know.

I have to say that after you finish cleaning a person, there is no greater feeling of accomplishment.
You have made a person more comfortable and kept them clean.

A little “poop and pee patrol” never hurts. But it’s startling to think that so many people find such disgust in caring for someone that cannot fend for them selves. We showed up on the earth and had someone do it for us, why not return the favor?

As a society we tend to take the easy route when we are confronted with a problem. The days when we’d “suck it up” are going, now we rely on a pill, surgery or technology to take care of or ills, all in the name of convenience.

When the chips are down and our true mettle is challenged, just toss in the cards and wait for the next hand.

Science will come to our rescue.

That’s far better than duty and love. :rolleyes:

-----------------------------------------


P.S. I never went to kindergarten and I’m a tad over six foot, which makes soap boxes unnecessary and makes viewing parades, from the back row, a cinch! :confused:

[finn's mom]

It seems to me that this decision has made the child's life easier as well as making the parents ability to care for her within their reach. I don't imagine they'd be able to do it later on in life if she were to reach full adult size and weight. This situation is sad and I pray that I'm never able to fully understand what it's like to face that kind of choice. That's all I'm going to say about it. :)

[Twisterdog]

Lobodeb, thank you for that honest and informed post. It was brave of you to post that insightful look into your family's private world.

[Edwina's Secretary]

.


As a society we tend to take the easy route when we are confronted with a problem. The days when we’d “suck it up” are going, now we rely on a pill, surgery or technology to take care of or ills, all in the name of convenience.



Why is that wrong?

If there is a pill or a surgery or technology that makes life better/easier/less painful....is it better to suffer..to suck it up....to take the tougher route?

Still doesn't make sense to me....unless you are into some kind of alternative lifestyle that values pain and suffering.....

(and you are welcome....I have left you all sorts of alternatives to make jokes instead of answering the questions...)

[RICHARD]

Why is that wrong?

If there is a pill or a surgery or technology that makes life better/easier/less painful....is it better to suffer..to suck it up....to take the tougher route?

Still doesn't make sense to me....unless you are into some kind of alternative lifestyle that values pain and suffering.....

(and you are welcome....I have left you all sorts of alternatives to make jokes instead of answering the questions...)

I guess I like the humility of man.

What is pain and suffering?

I guess it's not an option to rise above and conquer pain or suffering?

Or do we just take a knee and pray, instead of meeting a problem head on?

-----------

About May of last year I coded a case where a resident surgeon cut the hepatic artery of a man that was in for a cholecystectomy (gall bladder removal). The guy bled out on the O.R. table.

Oops!

A very simple operation to make his life better?


The scapel can only change the physical.
We haven't invented anything to cure the soul.

If I am ever stuck in the theoretical foxhole and have to choose my buddy,
I want the person who has cleaned a rear end, wiped up puke or smiled and said to someone with gangrene on their foot, "everything will be O.K...."

I like liars with heart, They seem to stick around try to help.
The truth tellers run away to find help. :confused:

--------------------------------

I'd rather trust a countryman than a townman,
You can judge by his eyes, take a look if you can,
He'll smile through his guard,
Survival trains hard.
I'd rather trust a man who works with his hands,
He looks at you once, you know he understands,
Don't need any shield,
When you're out in the field.
-G

[Edwina's Secretary]

Okay...so you think pain and suffering is noble and romantic.

I think it is pain and suffering.

And I think parents who do what they can to save their child from pain and suffering are noble.

So next time you are in pain...please no aspirin, no medicine, no surgery...just your humility. Rise above your pain and suffering.

And let the child be in pain and suffer for they too can rise through humility and transcend the pain.

No thanks.

[Lobodeb]

Lobodeb, thank you for that honest and informed post. It was brave of you to post that insightful look into your family's private world.

Thank YOU for recognizing that and you're welcome. I don't speak of my brother often because I'm not always sure of the reaction I'll get. I learned the very hard way that people are cruel. I can't tell you the number of fights I got into as a child defending him because someone thought it was funny to make fun of him. I'm not ashamed of him in the slightest. It's more of a way to protect myself and protect him as a human being.

[Pam]

I really wasn't going to come back to this thread because it is one where I didn't see a side where I could throw my support 100%. I did just now read Lobodeb's post and I agree with Twisterdog's post below:


Lobodeb, thank you for that honest and informed post. It was brave of you to post that insightful look into your family's private world.

God bless you Lobodeb and your family as well. No one knows the heartache of turning loved ones over to someone else's care. My mom was faced with that situation with my dad after caring for him after his stroke for many years. We all knew that if she continued on that way we would be burying both of them. We were supportive of whatever she wanted to do. I don't think, until I am in someone's situation, I have the right to judge.

I will say, though, that I do enjoy Richard's posts. He is an intelligent man with a good sense of humor. Sometimes he has injected that humor into threads that were about to boil over and that has been a good thing. Let's all just say that debate is good and that is what this is. Richard please do not feel that you are being ganged up on. Your opinions are respected because they are your own based on your own personal life situations and you have a right to express them here and anywhere as do we all. End of sermon. :)

[cassiesmom]

He has been beaten and both physically and sexually abused by his caretakers.


Oh, Lobodeb. I'm a nurse and this just breaks my heart. There is no reason - NONE - for caretakers to inflict pain or abuse on the ones for whom they are caring (not that I would call it caring at that stage).

My grandmother's husband lived in several nursing homes for the last years of his life due to a spinal cord injury. He had good caregivers and bad caregivers. When the care was lacking, he developed things like constipation, malnutrition, urinary tract infections and pressure ulcers. When the care was good, his health was also good. I guess part of what these parents are doing is making their daughter physically easier to be cared for, so that she can remain as healthy as possible. I worked in a rehabilitation hospital for almost ten years - it was a heck of a lot of work and there were days when I was less than happy with the people I was caring for - but that never gave me license to do them harm.

[RICHARD]

Okay...so you think pain and suffering is noble and romantic.




THAT WAS UNCALLED FOR..


Imagine that, a Latin/Mexican male that can't sell romance. :rolleyes:


Let's do this.

There are many wonderful attempts, thru the Modern Miracles of Science that allow parents and their children to lead fairly normal lives.


Cleft palate? Supernuerary digits? Cranial vault remodel? Nasty nevus?
People get their kids a sugery to help them lead normal lives.

I am not against all surgery, nor am I an advocate for pain and suffering.

I do have some qualms about parents having their kids operated on to insert bone into the legs to make them taller. Hormones because they are to slow to develop.

Designer tastes in parents? Designer kids!
The parents transfer their pain and suffering to their kids who undergo their own P&S.

Individual P&S is individual.
It measures differently from person to person.

My pain may be your party. We will never know about the PA's pain because she can't tell us.

And without her uterus we'll really never know about painful menses.

----------------------------

My basic beef with this whole topic is the fact that people can make very dramatic decisions for people in their care.

Just how much was the surgery for this child gonna benefit her?

The parents?

-------------------

So here is the 64 dollar question!

I know the answer, but let's play anyway.

You stroke out and will be coma for the rest of your days.
You will live on a respirator, in bed.

what's next?

For me, there is not quality of life issue there.

Pull my plug and let someone have my spot.

-------------------------

I guess putting loves notes into the XGF's underwear drawer wasn't romantic? :eek: :confused: :rolleyes: .


P.S.

Pam,

Should I ever open my own cult or sect you will be on the list to sermonize for my followers! ;)


Amen.

[Edwina's Secretary]

There are many wonderful attempts, thru the Modern Miracles of Science that allow parents and their children to lead fairly normal lives.





There is nothing that can be done for this child to live anything CLOSE to a normal life.

Her parents have chosen, in consultation with qualifed medical personnel, to try and make her life as comfortable and painfree as possible.

I believe if I had a child I would walk through the fires of hell (see...even anglos can be dramatic) to prevent my child from pain and suffering.

And that is what her parents are doing.

My family knows what I want in the event I am unable to communicate. This child cannot communicate so her parents must decide for her. What a huge, mind boggling responsibility. I do not believe they made it from anything but the desire to give the best possible quality of life under horrendous circumstances.

[RICHARD]

There is nothing that can be done for this child to live anything CLOSE to a normal life.

(see...even anglos can be dramatic)


Thanks for making my point.


And I always thought that drama was more a democratic trait... :confused:
:eek: ;)

[Lobodeb]

Heavens Special Child

A meeting was held quite far from Earth
It's time again for another birth
Said the Angel to the Lord above
This Special Child will need much love
His progress may seem slow
Accomplishments he may not show
And he'll require extra care
From folks he meets way down there
He may not run, laugh or play
His thoughts may seem quite far away
In many ways he won't adapt
And he'll be known as handicapped
So let's be careful where he's sent
We want his life to be content
Please Lord find the parents who
Will do this Special job for you
They will not realize it right away
The Special role they're asked to play
But with this child sent from above
Comes a richer much stronger love
Soon they'll know the privilege given
In caring for this gift from Heaven
Their precious gift so meek, and mild
He is Heaven's Special Child!



Author Unknown

[Edwina's Secretary]

Yes RICHARD...I am glad you agree with me....the parents in this case are truely selfless HEROS......doing a job they rest of us can barely stand to think about....and doing it the best they can.

[TamanduaGirl]

About May of last year I coded a case where a resident surgeon cut the hepatic artery of a man that was in for a cholecystectomy (gall bladder removal). The guy bled out on the O.R. table.

Hardly an elective surgery my father would be dead if he hadn't had his out.

[RICHARD]

Hardly an elective surgery my father would be dead if he hadn't had his out.


There is a difference between elective and emergency GB surgery.

Some docs will wait for the "itis" to go away and do it as an elective.

[Lobodeb]

There is a difference between elective and emergency GB surgery.

Some docs will wait for the "itis" to go away and do it as an elective.

Or preventative! No one in my family is buried with a gall bladder. I was having pain in the area, but they couldn't find any stones. The doctor said, "well, given your family history, I should just take it out now and spare you the whole ordeal!"

I'm leaving now to go knock on some wood. ;)

[RICHARD]

Or preventative! No one in my family is buried with a gall bladder. I was having pain in the area, but they couldn't find any stones. The doctor said, "well, given your family history, I should just take it out now and spare you the whole ordeal!"

I'm leaving now to go knock on some wood. ;)

Same as elective. ;)


Shave the wood down and make a salad?

Fiber helps! :confused: :eek: