agression with treats

[qazqaz]

Hi all, sorry it's been a while. BeBe (greyhound) is doing great (exeception below!) but I still haven't got any photos on line. My question is, when we give her a treat e.g bone, chew etc she will run off to eat it. If we approach her or walk past her she growls but just recently she has started lunging/nipping at our feet as we walk past. We do know what to do with this behaviour as we have never experienced before. All in all she is great, her personality is beginning to come out and she is definitely a 'man's dog' but I would like to nip this behaviour in the bud. Thanks in advance!!

[Dixieland Dancer]

Smokey,
You need to get control of this behavior immediately. It is an agression that could lead to possibly getting biten some day.

My suggestion would be to teach the dog that good things come from your hands. And they keep on coming if I don't run away! How to accomplish this is very simple but a little time consuming. I assume your dog is getting fed twice a day. Take the amount of food that you normally feed for breakfast and put it in a pouch. Carry the pouch with you throughout the morning. Have the dog learn to take the food gently from your hand for doing a desired behavior. Have the dog sit, give a verbal praise such as the word YES and then reward immediately a piece of kibble from the pouch. Repeat this several times with other commands the dog may know until all the kibble is gone. Repeat this with the night time amount of kibble. After a couple of weeks the dog should be taking the kibble from your hand very gently. Never feed from a bowl during this time unless you absolutely have too.

After the dog has the hang of it then introduce a toy of some sort. Use the words TAKE and RELEASE. When you say TAKE and the dog does then give a treat immediately. After the dog consistently understand this then use a different kind of treat or bone or whatever object you first had problems with. Reward with lots of treats that are better than what you give the dog to invoke the behavior. If it's a bone, then give some meat. If it's a chew toy, then give some kibble.

I think you get the hang of what I'm trying to say. There are just two critical parts to remember to this. They are:

1. The timing of the reward is critical! It must be done the second the desired result is obtained. Be consistent with the behavior.

2. GO SLOW! Break down your behavior's into small increments and build off of the learned response. If the dog gets confused back up to the last step that was being done successfully. If the dog looks at you like "I have no clue what you want from me" then you need to go back and break the learning process into smaller increments.

You are doing two things with this. 1. You are establishing that you are alpha over the dog and 2. Good things come from you.

If you don't do obedience then I strongly suggest you find a class and enroll. This also helps to build a bond of trust and authority in your relationship with your dog.

If you have any questions about this please let me know and I will try to help answer them the best that I can.

[carrie]

I would suggest that you just stop giving the treats that are going to last long enough to cause a problem.
Give a small chew, if you feel you really have to, that the dog can eat fairly quickly. Stay out of the way, or put the dog in the garden to eat it.
Why make an issue of it?
Be aware, be safe, and what is the problem?

[lizbud]

Carrie,
Surely you responded with "tongue in cheek",
Correct? I would never permit a growl,or nip
by my dog..no matter what !!
You're joking right? Liz.

[carrie]

I would not allow an animal that I had raised to exhibit such behaviour but, really, what is the big deal?
This is an adult dog in a new home that is very different from the environment it was raised in and it is showing a very natural behaviour. By taking this head on you run the risk of making a natural behaviour an issue, being the cause of aggression and forcing the dog to bite. Surely it is saner to feed the dog in peace, understand the reasons for its behaviour and take away the risks of an otherwise safe and happy animal becoming a problem and a danger?

[yorkster]

lizbud......I guess I agree with you- I'm confused too. I think there was a similar post about this problem awhile back, but I don't remember what advice was given. I think if it was my dog, I would not like it, but then I'm new at this. Carrie- couldn't this lead to other aggressive behavior? It's not an 'alpha' type behavior? Maybe I am missing something here. Not questioning you, just curious and a bit confused..........

[lizbud]

Yorkster,
Think I understand Carrie to say that BeBe
should be "cut some slack" on this issue.
This is an adult dog not raised by Smokey.
Maybe avoiding the situation where the dog
would be forced into re-acting,and just
concentrate on other issues..for the time
being...

[carrie]

Exactly - do not allow the situation to occur and you have no problem.

[qazqaz]

Thanks all for the advice, couldn't get on sooner as the PC crashed!!! I too am a bit confused as I thought this is a problem that should be dealt with and controlled from the start. I will take heed of Carrie's advice, as she has been ok over the last few days, and leave her alone when she has her treat. Having a rescue dog has just made me extra aware of her behaviour so as Carrie put it I will be 'cutting her some slack' although if the problem gets worse I may have to re think this.

[ October 27, 2001: Message edited by: smokey ]

[carrie]

O.K. It's taken me some time to find some time - if you know what I mean? - but let me try to explain my philosophy on this one, if you are interested. (If not, do not feel obliged to read....if my success in explaining past issues is anything to go by it will only cause more confusion anyway!!!)

BeBe has been raised in a kennel environment. It is unclear what sort of environment this was as kennels vary enormously as do management principles as I know from experience! I have seen tapes of two Racing kennels in the States and both were very different from the ones I have experience of in this country. One of the kennels I ran myself, one I worked for someone else and many I have visited as a friend or as a behaviourist. There are good kennels that produce fit, healthy dogs that have good race records. Many of these I would close tomorrow if I had that power! There are many that are less polished, have less mechanical equipment and produce less successful dogs that I would happily leave my dogs at. There are also many that have poor conditions, poor feeding, poor handling and little knowledge. The people that run these profess to love their dogs - they should be prevented from keeping any animal in my view.
BeBe has come from one of these or something in between. We don't know if feeding was a group situation or a solitary affair, if he was kenneled on his own or with one or several other dogs - the point is we don't know.
The vast majority of racing dogs are kept to race and, possibly, breed. Nothing else. They are not seen as companion animals and have no social training. Their work is purely instinctive - to say that you need to train a Greyhound to race is more akin to the physical training an athlete puts in to build muscle and stamina rather than teaching the dog to run. Some need convincing to chase a fake bunny and they need experience to cope with the tight bends on the track ( any trainers out there, sorry this a very basic description, I know, but it is the essentials!).
To me this speaks volumes about the Greyhound as a breed. For an animal to have no social training, no house training and no experience of human command to then fit into a family home with very few problems is truly a insight into the dog. Most racing Greyhounds have never seen another breed of dog. Many are used to human company only when they are doing something that they were born to do - be it training, racing or feeding ( and that is usually just enough time to put the bowl on the floor and close the kennel again). They are born into a dog society, raised in a dog society and have to survive.
Don't get me wrong, there is a lot to be said for this way of life (as long as it lasts...sadly) for a dog. A decently run kennel of Greyhounds is one of the most relaxing, happy and soul restoring places to be.
Back to BeBe - we don't know what environment or experiences BeBe has been conditioned to behave to. The aggression shown with treats has every hallmark of a dog that truly believes that everyone is looking out for what they can get and once he has the prize he knows he has to do what it takes to keep it. Good decision on BeBe's part.
In that respect it is a dominant behaviour -BUT we have to take the word "dominant" in context. He is preventing the loss of a food item that has been given to him. The only times that free food is offered to a dog is by a subordinate that is either forced or coerced into giving it. It then has to be defended as the only reason any other dog comes near to an eating dog is to take the food.
My answer is, in this situation, don't give the free food and if you insist on it then be fair about it. Give it and back right off until it is finished with.
Understand the dog has been conditioned to behave this way and by making an issue of it you are more likely to strengthen that conditioning than reduce it. Stop the free food or leave him to enjoy it totally on his own so he feels secure about it.
It is something you need to be aware of - but why make a problem out of nothing?

[TollSettFK]

My Finny ( 4 monthes) is having some agression stuff as well. He can be sweet all day long and then just have one bad moment ( like growing when we try to lift him up, nipping on pants, stuff like that) .Since we found out he does have some agression , we have been working on him with
a couple things to stop this behavior NOW. If this growing things doesn't stop, and if you don't stop it, it will moat likely turn nto agression towards you. Here's some things were doing with Finny, who is doing a thousand times better then before:

1. a couple times during the day, gat a handful of food and feed him, from your hand, piece by piece. He then learns that YOU supply all food...and have the choice to take it away from him.
2. During feeding, make him SIT for his food and his water, showing him that your giving him the food...basicly the same theme as no. 1.

3. About eight times a day, take him, flip him over on his side, and hold him there. If he wiggles, say in almost a crow " awk! awk! awk!" voice.

4. O.k, I know your dog loves bones, but what kind of bones are you goiving him? If he doesn't stop growing when you approach him while he's chewing on his bone, just simply don't give him that bone, or others like it!


O.k, I know that he isn't (at least right now) aggresive to you, but you have to show him that your in charge, and he does what you do. If he grows when you aproach him ( with his bone ) just go over there right away, and shake him by his scruff and firmly say NO GROW. This is how the mother dog would punish him if he growed at her. hope this helps!

[carrie]

Please, please, please never, ever put your dog on the floor by force in the so called "Alpha roll". This has no grounding as a behaviour altering method and, with a truly dominant dog, can be highly dangerous - if the dog is truly dominant, if it really is making a challenge for leadership rather than having the role forced upon it, then this is the quickest way to get your dog to bite you!
If your dog accepts this treatment with only a struggle then your dog has had it's Alpha role forced upon it and does not know how to cope with it. A truly dominant dog will have your face for breakfast if you try this.
BeBe is not a truly dominant dog, his behaviour with treats will not lead into aggressive behaviour in other areas as long as you stop putting him in a position where he has no other choice than to defend his food.

Many trainers advocate the Alpha roll - it is a good way for owners to feel physically superior to their dogs and it is a definite position of power. The dogs that allow you to do this are not really dominant dogs although they show some dominant traits.
A dog that is really, truly, an Alpha type is very rare indeed. If you have one then it would not allow you to put it on its side or back and hold it there against its will - you quite simply would not be able to do it.
It is a false belief that you are doing anything to change the status of yourself or the dog by doing this - wolves, quite simply, do not behave this way to establish or maintain dominance.
The behaviour is highly ritualised and is only displayed in highly defined situations - never as a serious Alpha changing behaviour!

[lizbud]

The Greyhound is an ancient and elegant
breed.From what I've read about them, they
were originaly kept individually as hunting
dogs and treasured like family members.
I think the idea of "kenneling" these dogs
and pitting them against each other by
running them around a course in a 'fake'
chase purely for the enjoyment of onlookers
is degrading and cruel..
A "racing" Greyhound's "useful" life is
barely four years, what then?? Rescue from
'the racing life'?,or hopefully a quick
death... What a life humans have imposed on
these beautiful creatures...

[ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[ October 28, 2001: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[carrie]

I totally agree.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Lizbud, you are so right.
Jackie

[qazqaz]

Looks like there is quite a view of opinions on the subject! We have left Bebe on her own when we have given her her treats and things have improved alot. I think in a way she is growing to trust us just as we are getting to know her more. She hasn't growled if we have happened to walk past her and tonight she even ate her chews in front of us in the living room!! (she usually run to her bed on the landing!) Although I have lived with dogs all my life (Border Collies) this is our first Greyhound and I am probably being an over anxious 'mum'! Her personality is begining to come out more and she has even started to try to play (for those of you read my other post). We have met another greyhound owner who, over the weeks have noticed that, in their words 'her eyes have come to life'.
:p She is giving us much love and enjoyment I just wish more people could see the real beauty of these dogs.

[carrie]

Beware!!!!
You are now hooked!!!
You will never get over this, the Greyhound is now part of your life..... well done!

[yorkster]

That is so nice to hear about BeBe! She has a good, happy home now. Let us all know how it goes in the next few weeks.

[tatsxxx11]

Wonderful, encouraging update on BeBe!! I agree, I think you're hooked! :)

[RachelJ]

Originally posted by smokey:
<STRONG>I think in a way she is growing to trust us just as we are getting to know her more. </STRONG>

With any newly adopted dog, greyhound or otherwise, we need to give them time to learn to trust us. Their actions and reactions are a combination of instinct, their own personality and what they have learned through their previous experiences.
With my adopted dog, I saw changes and improvements, some immediate but most acquired as months and even years went by.

[yorkster]

Originally posted by RachelJ:
<STRONG>

With any newly adopted dog, greyhound or otherwise, we need to give them time to learn to trust us. Their actions and reactions are a combination of instinct, their own personality and what they have learned through their previous experiences.
With my adopted dog, I saw changes and improvements, some immediate but most acquired as months and even years went by.</STRONG>


Good point Rachel! Also very timely for my situation too........Great to hear also that BeBe is responding positivly.