Dog Park Manners

[chembear]

I'm new around these parts but I have a couple of problems with my doggie Duchess. As some of you may know Duchess is english setter/border collie mix with the english setter being dominant. She does tend towards being "talkative" but she's much better in the house. But at the dog park she gets so excited when a new friend (or potential friend) comes to the park she greats them with a resounding round of barking. I'm not sure how to handle this. Ignore it, scold her (which does not work) or what?

I bring this up because I had an incident at the dog park this afternoon. My children and I were alone at the park when another dog and his person came along. Duchess loves other dogs and gets a bit obnoxious in trying to get them to play with her. My thought is that this woman assumed that since my dog was barking she therefore must be agressive. Unfortunately my kids opened the gate to the other side of the park and Duchess went to play with the other dog. The woman immediately grabs her dog and tries to shoo Duchess away which makes Duches want to play even more. I was a few yards away and I don't run so it took me a minute or so to get to Duchess. This woman was totally ticked at me and accused Duchess of growling at her dog and being agressive. I figure if she were being agressive the lady would have totally been bitten since she was putting herself between the two dogs. Bad move in my opinion. Anyways I tried to inform her that if she had allowed the dogs to be dogs and get acquainted they would have probably been better off. She wasn't having any of it, so we just left cause I was ticked off as well. I sure don't want my dog to get a reputation for being agressive....she likes to play with other dogs more than she likes to play with her people.

The other thing is she's got some separation anxiety going on. I know a dead horse topic. I have gained a lot of information on how to handle this one from previous threads and I think she's doing better. It's hard, when I have my kids with me, to ignore her when we get home. We also have to wait outside or in the car until she stops barking and carrying on inside the house. Thankfully she's slowly getting better.

thanks for letting me vent.

Cindy, who thinks she should just live on an acre of land and adopt a second dog for Duchess to play with.

[kobieeli]

Hi chembear--welcome to PetTalk! I too am a San Joaquin Valley resident, but quite a ways south of you in an "unmentionable" part of California... :p *blech!*

Anyway, I'm eager to see what some of our stellar dog training folks around here say about your question, because our Aussie Eli is the same as your Duchess--an excitement barker. He loves other dogs and is never aggressive or dominant, but he sure does want to announce himself to them loudly and continuously! When he actually starts playing he calms down and shuts up, but it's kind of embarrassing until then. :rolleyes: We've tried putting him in a sit-stay, taking him back to the car to calm down, and treats for moments of silence, but they do no good. We're stumped!

Again, welcome! Do you have pictures of Duchess to share?

[TheAntiPam]

Yah, Chembear, where are those pictures of Duchess? Maybe she's barking at all the dogs saying "My mom won't put my picture on PetTalk!" :D

Good luck with the barking - alas, my cats have no words of wisdom on this topic! ;)

[chembear]

Ok with any luck here is a picture of the aformentioned obnoxious dog. She's the sweetest thing and not an agressive bone in her body....she allows my children to do absolutely anything to her (they try to love her to death) and I've never heard her complain once. She doesn't even say anything when I trip over her....but that's another story altogether.

Cindy null http://home.pacbell.net/chembear

[chembear]

Okay so that didn't work. Hmmm I need remedial picture posting.

Cindy

[RachelJ]

Cindy, welcome to Pet Talk. I think you have the answer when you said..just live on an acre of land and adopt a second dog for Duchess to play with. HaHa

I think I would start by working on the command "No, bark". Even if this isn't the ultimate answer in dealing with this specific problem (the experts aren't here yet) it will help in the long run for many
situations. Teach "No bark" in a controlled situation, like inside your house. You might want to try using a squirt bottle of water or reaching to hold her mouth while you give the command. Always praise profusely when she does stop barking. Once she understands what you mean by the command, the challenge is to start employing it in situations where you are certain you can get her to stop. The more you do this, you will be amazed how your dog will begin to respond to your command in the other situations.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Hi Cindy, if your dog wants to play with other dogs don't stop going to the park. That lady should meet my two dogs, a year ago we tried the dog park, we took them inside the small enclosed part of it and they acted like a pack of two one on each side of the poor dog, Daisy with her neck stuck out staring and Perry ready to spring.
We know now that we can't take them, but I would love it if they were friendly dogs like yours who want to play. That is what the park is for. She should have let them work it out since yours was barking but not aggresive. I know this is not any help to you, just rambling on. Daisy and Perry still bark quite a bit at the kids going to school through the window and I'm still trying what Rachel said telling them "No Bark" and it does help, Perry has stopped and Daisy is getting the idea, and turns around to look at us and then will usually stop. Good luck.
Jackie

[AmberLee]

Dear Cindy/Chembear,

Maybe this link:
How to post photos in Signature block (http://PetoftheDay.com/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=21&t=000331) will help us see your lovely dog. At least I hope so... :D Good luck.

[carrie]

We do not have "dog parks" in this Country and I can only say this is a good thing!
To let multiple people with multiple ideas about their dogs' characters, intentions and language, let alone the multiple problems these dogs' exhibit in their behaviour (not to mention the owners'!!!) is, to me, a recipe for disaster!

The fact that the other owner felt she had to stand between the two dogs says it all. If you do not want your dog to interact with other dogs on a natural basis ..... what was she doing there?

The more tricky subject of your dog "barking with excitement" and exhibiting seperation anxiety.......?

Your dog is anxious when you leave it because it does not see you as in control of it's life. If you are not in control then the dog HAS to take the role of leader. It has no choice.
If the dog sees itself as the leader, even if you do not see things in the same way, it's job is to warn other dogs how strong it's pack is, run up to them to show how self confident it is (making a lot of noise while doing this is pure display and bluff designed to convince the other dog that it has no chance of taking over) and if play is the outcome it does not change the initial signals.

Sitting in the drive when you leave your dog is, actually, prolonging the suffering. Your dog is howling and barking because it sees itself as the leader (therefore it thinks you are not capable of surviving the outside world on your own and that it is it's job to protect you)and when you wait in the driveway you are responding to it's instructions not to leave. As you will understand - this makes the dog more and more frantic. At first you seem to listen to the dog's warning that you cannot survive without it's protection, the dog calms down......then you leave!!! The next time, the dog is going to try harder and for longer to convince you to stay.


You need to take control, you need to convince the dog that you do not need a leader because you are not only able to look after yourself but that you can look after the dog better than the dog can. The best way of doing this is proving to the dog that your first priority is the environment the dog, and you, are living in, not the dog.

[yorkster]

Chembear-Cindy, Oh does this sound familier! This is Yorkster who started the other thread about separation anxiety. As I have mentioned, my dog is B. Collie/Black Lab mix, so very similar to your dog. We have been working hard on her sep. anxiety, and have definately made progress with dog obedience and really good advice from people here like Carrie & Rachel. Your dog sounds sooooo much like my dog! Besides the sep. anxiety issues, she also barked when she got excited to see other dogs (it's funny too, because otherwise she is not at all a 'barker'). In the car and at the park/beach were her two main places to act-up. Different people had different reactions. The thing(s) that helped me were to keep her on a leash as much as possible (coming & going), and a spray-bottle. The spray bottle was the biggest help. I ended up having to put a little vinegar in the water, because plain water did not faze her.
I think you told us earlier that your dog does not play fetch, but I am sure that if you worked with her, and she learned how to, it would be an option for you. Most dogs can learn to play it sucessfully. It helped my dog a lot because I would keep her on leash until we got to a designated spot then the ball came out. Once she got into it, she was focussed on that for the most part. Also, if you keep treats with you for when she starts to run off, and use them to get her back. I am no expert on dog-training, but I have learned a lot here at Pet Talk and dog obedience in the last few months.

[chembear]

I've not been around in a while. Carrie I don't wait in the drive for her to calm down before I leave. She's quite alright with my leaving it's when I return that she goes nuts. She runs to the window jumping and barking like a maddog....ok just a little crazy. She's gotten much better now that I've gotten the kids to ignore her before we leave, we just ignore her, get our stuff, and leave. No big productions. She's fine with that. Yes, she does have the big sad aren't-you-gonna-take-me-with eyes but we don't cave. It's our return that we have a problem with. So we wait until she calms down a bit before we enter the house. Then we ignore her until she's calmed down. I usually wait until I see her lying down before I say "hi, good girl", again no big production.

The barking on the other hand, when it's at the gardeners while she's in the house is a very protective bark. Deep gutteral sounds with a bit of growling. This is the only time I hear this type of bark from her. At the dog park it's just a high pitched yippy kind of bark. And she just looks SO SO excited to see a new doggie. She doesn't even have a problem with me greeting and talking to other dogs. She will come by and investigate at times but seems quite happy just to have others to play with.

She's very well behaved in every other area. She only gets up on stuff if we're not around or if she's invited. She does like to be up...but what dog doesn't the sites are just better when you're up.

I agree with you on the about the lady at the dog park. I was more than willing to have to dogs work it out but she was spazing (is that even a word?) so I figured it was best to just leave. Duchess, admittedly, likes to be top dog and rarely is submissive at the park. I just wish she weren't so excited.

I am working on the "quiet no bark" but she so rarely barks while in a more controlled situation. Usually it's at the gardeners, the doorbell and at the dog park. With the doorbell I just tell her no bark and she stops. She seems to feel threatened by the gardeners and it's much harder to keep her calm. I use lots of praise with her and she seems to respond to that more than she does treats. The dog park I feel is like a losing battle. But I'm taking it one day at a time.

Cindy

[carrie]

I apologise for the misunderstanding. Try this - when you arrive home go straight in and totally ignore her. If the kids find this hard explain to them that this is the only way to make the dog feel more secure that you can all look after yourselves. This is harder than it sounds but no eye contact, physical contact or verbal contact until she has given up trying to gain your attention. When she has been relaxed for five minutes you can call her over, get her to sit and reward her. If you cave before that you are giving her the same message that an Alpha expects from the lower ranking members of the pack - an Alpha will ignore the greeting behaviour of lesser ranking animals until it feels that due respect has been shown. It is important to leave the dog for five minutes after it has relaxed to make sure that it really has accepted the situation and is not just thinking about a different approach. Some dogs will go away, think, come back for another go for up to an hour!
When the dog is barking at the gardener simply hold it's collar and move it away from the window or door without saying a word or making eye contact. Move it to another room if needed and leave it until it has stopped barking. As soon as it does allow it back into the room without a word. The dog will realise that you have taken control of the situation and do not need to be protected....although you must be consistent, patient and calm about it. Again this may take some time but watch for subtle changes in the level of barking. No praise until the dog has relaxed for five minutes. You are allowing the dog to realise that it is fine and that as leader it is up to you, not it, what is and is not allowed to be in the yard.
I would stay away from the dog park until you have these behaviours under control and you will find that your dog is much calmer and more relaxed when you do return.

[chembear]

Thanks Carrie, I'll work on it. It's just such a stressful time right now. We're in the middle of a big move and time is very limited to be a really good alpha. I won't be home when the gardeners come the next time. I'll most likely crate her that day since she really does not like them and I'm afraid she'll be destructive.

So when we get home and she's barking at the door we should just enter and ignore or and not wait until she stops barking? I thought if we entered while she was barking that we were sending her the signal that she can get us to come in by barking thereby reinforcing the barking behavior. This is so confusing.

Oh and I think I may have figured out the picture thing. <crossing fingers>

http://home.pacbell.net/chembear/duchess.jpg

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Oh Chembear, Duchess is just beautiful. I love her coloring. I'm not giving any advice :) I'm afraid Carrie will read it :D besides I have my own "No Bark" problem but we are doing better and better.
Jackie

[carrie]

Ha ha ha, Jackie!!!

Chembear, yes, do not wait until she stops barking until you enter the house - just march right in, totally ignore her and carry on with your day to day business as if she wasn't there. She will, eventually, go and lie down. Leave her for five minutes, call her, ask her to sit and reward like mad.
You are telling her that she has no business behaving like she is and will be ignored, as an Alpha ignores silly behaviour from subordinates, until she behaves in a manner appropriate to her status. Remember that this is not a dog challenging you for dominance - it is a dog that believes it IS the Alpha and is not coping with the role. No dog can in a human world. By giving it the right signals your dog will understand that it no longer has this role and more importantly that you are a safe and competent leader that knows the rules. Your dog will be more than happy (not to mention less stressed and anxious) to give up it's position as it didn't want it in the first place - she just didn't see an alternative. Stay calm and consistent, one look or word directed to the dog will strengthen her belief that you need her to look after you.
Good luck, it is really worth the effort, although it sounds like a pretty busy and stressful time for you at the moment!

[Daisy's Mom]

No help from me either... I just want to say that I think Duchess is beautiful!

[TheAntiPam]

Duchess, this is your Auntie Pam writing! I'm glad you got your picture up for us, and I'm proud of your mom for working hard to make your life better and that you keep trying to be a good pup!

Good luck with your move, to you and all your fambly! :D :D

[chembear]

This is just an update. I agree with everybody who says Duchess is beautiful, but then I'm a bit biased. She seems to be getting better but she's still very excited to see us return. I had to go out today and left the kids and the dog with a sitter. She was happy to see me when I returned but in the beginning she would go crazy even if she was at home with the rest of the family. A step in the right direction?

I'm still a little confused at if she thinks she's the alpha and she has to take care of me why does she listen to everything else I request of her? Most of what I've read about separation anxiety and dominate dogs is the dog exhibits destructive behavior. She's not at all destructive except when the gardeners are around. She just goes absolutely nuts when we come home. I know that she's getting better about this as well because it takes her longer to realize we're even home. In other words she's not sleeping in the window with one ear perked for the sound of the car. Am I right to assume that she's improving or am I reading more into the situation. Also her craziness doesn't seem to last as long.

Cindy, who thinks she's having trouble making a coherant statement.

[carrie]

It is common for a dog to exhibit dominant behaviour in one or two situations and not in any other.
I have seen dogs that have been competition level obedience animals refusing to allow their owner access to an armchair, for instance.
Many dogs are happy with their position while at home but take the role of Alpha as soon as they step out the door.
Seperation anxiety has become intense by the time destructive behaviour is seen. Sadly this is the first indication to most owners that they have a problem. I have had clients that have even taken the chewing of their possesions and furniture as "normal" dog behaviour and have not asked for help until the dog has started to eliminate in the house or until it has become aggressive!
If your dogs behaviour is becoming less intense and is lasting for shorter periods then progress is being made - you are not fooling yourself!