Full Out Rearing *Good Update!!!!

[areias]

Sigh...see this post:
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=115760

I have rode twice this week, for the first time in about two months. On Saturday she was pretty good...she was starting to do a little bit of the behaviour, but I stayed pretty firm and she was okay. Today I got on her, went once around the field, and she started up again...only this time full out rearing. She was spinning and circling and dancing around too. I get very nervous on a horse that rears, which maybe only escalates the problem. I don't care if it bucks but I've seen too many people get hurt on a rearing horse. She wouldn't stop, wouldn't listen to me. I was so afraid she would flip over backwards. I tried circling and tried to get her moving but with no response. Somehow through some beautiful side passes (hah..yeah..) I made it to the back side of the field and pretty much bailed out (she would not stop spinning/coming up off her feet). She dosen't lunge or I would have made her do that. I made her walk around the field two or three times then brought her back, left her saddle on and put her in her stall (no food or hay, so no 'rewards' for her). I don't want her to think that when she rears I will get right off and untack her and she can go back out in the field.
My brother and sister were both there, they were supposed to be led around on her, but I decided it was just too dangerous.

Anyways went next door and the lady's daugher is going to come out on sunday and we're going to see if there's a problem-either with me, or with the horse, or with maybe the saddle. We don't think the problem is the saddle though. She dosen't use a bit so it can't be mouth pain. It's hard for me to admit defeat.

I feel like a failure. :(

[Suki Wingy]

I'm stummped. :confused: Seems like you did the right thing to me though.

[critter crazy]

Sounds to me either saddle fitting problems, or lack of respect. How much ground work do you do before riding? Do you lunge her first?? has she ever acted this way before. You said you havent ridden her in two months, have you done any ground work in the last two months???

[critter crazy]

She dosen't lunge or I would have made her do that.

I must have missed this when i read it! Why does she not Lunge???? That is the basics o ground work. Have you checked her feet?? could she have a sore foot, or something in her feet? The thing that gets me is the fact that she was bad the first day, and then worse the next day. Seems almost like she was in pain, and it got worse. The saddle fit could also be a problem. I know that you dont think it is the saddle, but a saddle that fits one month could not fit the next month. Has she gained/lost weight?? Sounds to me like she needs to have more ground work done, once you have established what the problem is.

[areias]

No, unfortunately, she dosen't lunge on a line. Never has-I tried working with her on it but she would just stand there and stare at me. I don't really have anyone to help me with the lunging (or two person jobs).

We do groundwork all the time. She follows me around like a puppy, haha. I wish I had access to a round pen, but I don't.

See, the thing is, she was fine when I first got her. A month later this started, and with the florida heat and her fly allergy, we took a break so she could just be a horse. And then I go to get back on her after the 2 months and she flips out. If it was a pain issue I don't think it would show up that violently. I guess you never know, but I'm going to try a different pad (mines pretty thick anyway) and a different saddle.

Her feet are fine, they are getting a little long and it's time for a trim, but other than that I tapped on them with the hoof pick with no response. (Believe me, I really tried to see if it was a pain issue).

I want to say that she's just testing me, and seeing what she can get away with. But I really have had some bad experiences-I don't want to stay on a rearing horse. I'm not trying to ask for perfection, but what I asked for was a pleasure horse that I could just go out there and RIDE and not have to worry about too much. :(

[critter crazy]

My mare Cocoa did the exact same thing to me.....After some closer checking, it was the saddle that was pinching in on her withers. So I got another saddle and that helped...then I found that she had weak hocks. So the farrier had to do some corrective shoeing and she was a whole lot better. I felt so bad thinking about how many times I would circle her and all until she settled, when the whole time it was the saddle. That meant she would give in to me and just work through the pain.

Check saddle fit, etc. Try a double pad to see if she reacts any different.

[Vela]

You need to start over with this horse from the ground up. If you dont have acess to a round pen, you should try fencing off part of the field she lives in, it doesn't even need to be an expensive fence, you could even fence it off and make a sort of round pen with green T posts and white tape, etc. You need to start from the ground up, as well as have a thorough physical exam done by a vet. MANY problems with horses under tack and while ridden are due to pain, some that can be hidden really well. She could have a sore back, malalignment, a problem in her legs, a problem with her teeth or ears, or neck. If it's not physical, it sounds like a lack of respect for you and lack of trust in you to be the boss. She needs to learn this on the ground and then in the saddle. Try looking at programs like Parelli, John Lyons, you can do these on your own with your horse and correct a lot of behavioral problems, as well as teach her she can trust you. Because she didn't have this problem when you got her, it could be any combination of things. You need to start from the basics of ground work and teach her to trust you and try again. Don't give up on her and admit defeat, you probably just need some extra help and honestly those programs and "games" do a lot to foster the relationship needed for a successful partnership. Don't give up, just start over from scratch. Good luck.

[Kalei]

Yeah I don't know what to say. with horses there can be so many problems, sometimes it takes a person who has delt with horses for all their life to be able to figure out the problem. I know what you mean about being scared on a horse, just in august I got on a horse and it wouldn't listen, it just kept galloping faster and faster and then we found out the saddle wasn't on tight enough and I fell off at like 40 kms per hours, I fractured a rib. It was scary. And as of today that horse still doesn't listen good to its owners. Hope you find the problem soon! :)

[areias]

Here's a little update.

The girl from the rescue came over and got on her yesterday. She reacted much the same way, maybe even a little worse. The girl's immediate opinion was either send her to a trainer, or trade her back in. She thinks that maybe that is why the lady got rid of her in the first place. It's very hard for me to fathom sending her to a trainer, where it's going to cost just about what I'm paying for her anyways (which is not cheap). I don't feel she's worth continuing the payments on her, unfortunately.
If possibly I could stop the payments on her and do the training, that would be fine, but I really can't do both.

And then she offered a proposition for me. She said that a lady had given her Ava (my horse) in exchange for a well broke QH mare. Now, about 6 months later, the woman returned the mare because she was "acting wierd". The mare delivered a foal the next day :rolleyes: . They don't really want to give the horse and the foal back to the lady, as they don't think the lady is too knowledgable in regards to foals and such. They said they would take ava and give her back to the lady, and in return I could keep the mare. I would jump in a heartbeat if it was both the mare and the foal (the foal is qh x percheron) but I'm not sure if I would get the foal too. So I have some decisions to make. I really do like her on the ground, but I am getting terrified to ride her. I'm going back down there this afternoon for one more time before I make a decision, a friend of mine is going to be there to help too.

I would love to work through this, but I don't think I have the experience or knowledge to do so. Even with parelli or john lyons, I'm still afraid of being on her back. I think she knows that, and maybe uses that against me, but I can't get around the fear. :(

[critter crazy]

well from the sounds of it, it would be better for the horse if she went to a home, with a more experianced rider. You dont seem confident enough, nor do you sound like you have enough experiance to deal with these issues. I would Suggest you do not get a foal!! If you think this horse is tough to deal with, how easy do you think a foal will be??? It takes alot of time,. and experiance to rear, handle and train a foal properly!!

[Vela]

I agree with the above post, if you can't deal with this mare, then it is best she go to a home with someone who can deal with her and has the proper equipment and time to help her; however, you should not get a foal. If you can't or don't want to afford training for this mare, the same will apply to the foal. You don't appear to have enough training skills to deal with it from the ground up, especially without a round pen, and would need to hire a trainer to help break the foal anyway. It's not meant rudely at all, but I've been around horses all my life, and have trained some myself, including an off the range Mustang, so I'm not saying it to be mean, but I don't want to see you hurt and there is a lot to it. Any mistakes made with a foal are often lifelong lessons, for both good and bad, and untraining improperly taught foals is very hard, and often doesn't happen once they are adults. Your best bet would be to take in the well broke mare, sans foal, and enjoy her, or else look elsewhere for a different horse.

[areias]

Another little update.

I will not be getting the mare. (Or the foal) She had foundered, and that's why the lady had given her up. The people call it a pregnancy founder, but we won't know for sure until after the baby's weaned. I'm extremely wary of getting into that.

There is another reg. QH mare there, that they're not sure on selling yet. She does barrels and all that, and supposedly has an "on" and an "off" switch. The owner of the barn I board at has seen her ridden and said she did really well. Supposedly she's never offered any quirky behavior. I'm not totally sure though.

I'm going back and forth between options. The barn owner is holding a clinic with a well-known trainer on Sunday, I am going to try and get off work so I can go. I will see what he says, and go from there. Hopefully she will exhibit the same behavior so maybe he could give some advice. As I compare different opinions and options, I'm at a loss of what the best way is. When my mare is going good, she's great, and when she's bad, she's bad. To give her up for another horse would be just about the same as rolling the dice again, I could end up with a worse behavior.

And I have raised and broke foals in the past, just to let you know. :) Both did great and are very rideable right now. I just fall apart when it comes to rearing. If I were to get the foal, I would probably sell it as a weanling.

[areias]

Also...any recommended reading/videos?

[Vela]

Well like I mentioned earlier, at least look into Clinton Anderson, John Lyons, and Pat Parelli. I think you can even rent some of those videos in the library. Also, Anderson and Lyons have had articles in Horse and Rider magazine, which you could also probably read at the library, that talk a lot about how to work with your horses and build confidence and trust between you, which may be all you need to to do prevent her rearing. You are fearful, she knows how to get to you, and she uses it to avoid being ridden. i just think going back to basics with her may help her learn to trust you and maybe you can work through the difficulties by doing so, which is why I suggested it before. It's more about building a relationship between the two of you than it is about actually going back to teaching her groundwork.

Hope it all works out for you. Training or retraining adult horses can be very hard sometimes, since they don't come as a clean slate like a foal, and since you have some experience there, it may come in handy in retrainnig her as well. Good luck with that.

[Toby's my baby]

I had the same problem with the horse I have now. He was a dream when I first bought him, but after a while he started taking off towards the fence and would do a sliding stop right before the fence and rear up all the time. I had no idea what to do so I called a riding instructer and asked her what to do, all I had to do was : Pull back on the rains pretty hard and kick as hard as you can. Sounds pretty brutal, but it actually works. I'd hold on if I were you, because you dont know exactly how she's going to react. If she doesn't really respond, I would get a pair of "humane spurs" that look like this (http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/assets/product_images/Equine/HumaneSpur.jpg) if you dont use spurs already... good luck, I hope you are able to make a decision!

[areias]

: Pull back on the rains pretty hard and kick as hard as you can. Sounds pretty brutal, but it actually works. I'd hold on if I were you, because you dont know exactly how she's going to react. If she doesn't really respond, I would get a pair of "humane spurs" that look like this (http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/assets/product_images/Equine/HumaneSpur.jpg) if you dont use spurs already... good luck, I hope you are able to make a decision!

I'm kinda nervous to do that too...she crow hops sometimes too. I can just see it, I think I'd be riding a rodeo bronc! When she does the spinning and rearing behavior, she feels very "hot", and almost like a coiled spring, if you know what I mean. I was thinking of spurs too, but I've never used them regularly except on some dud school horses, and I don't know how she'd react.

What about trying while under an oral "relaxer" such as B-Kalm or something? Maybe if it works, we can keep working on it and wean her off.

I am going to the library tomorrow to try and pick up some reading and videos. If I find something I like I will probably go ahead and buy the series.
Clinic is on Sunday, maybe the trainer will have some suggestions also. I guess he does a lot of groundwork so I'll probably be able to learn some new excercises.

[Vela]

Don't yank back on her mouth and kick her as hard as you can, first off you are sending mixed signals, secondly you have a high potential to get very hurt. She obviously has behavior issues and your fear is compounding it, which is perfectly understandable, it can be VERY scary when they act like that.

No one on this board has observed the behavior so don't take advice of this kind of nature from someone else who isn't present to see what is gonig on. Not every horse can or will tolerate this and the use of spurs, without finding out what the underlying problem is, is NOT going to help. Someone is going to get hurt if you try any of that at this point, potentially both you and the horse.

You need a professional and their opinion, you need to have her back and legs and mouth evaluated by a vet, you need to have saddle fit evaluated, and you need to have yourself and the horse evaluated by a trainer and/or clinician, like you are doing this weekend. Until then I'd stay off the horse until you get the rest of it sorted out. Because you are afraid, it is only making it worse. She doesn't trust you and you don't trust her, it's a BAD combination. I don't want to see you hurt.

There is something wrong with this horse and if it's a training issue it needs to be handled by someone who can do so appropriately, as your fear isn't allowing you to do it. If it's physical, then punishing her by yanking on her, kicking, her, and using spurs is just not okay to do. I'm glad you are doing some reading and I hope you can work things out, but don't go on the offensive with her or she will trust you even less then things will quickly get worse.

Because you are afraid of her rearing when you ride her, you are setting her up to do it be even getting on, she knows it will get you off and she doesn't want to be ridden by you becuse she doesn't trust you. A fearful rider generates fear and a lack of trust in the horse. If you are afraid, in her mind why should she trust you to tell her where to go?? Confidence and a relaxed approach is the only way to win her trust and show her she can folllow you without fearing you will put her in harm's way. You have to think like a horse. Horses don't follow the fearful timid horses in the herd, they follow the boss, you aren't being the boss because you are afraid of her rearing.

This is going to take work on your part, and perhaps with a trainer. You have taught her rearing gets you off, even if you didn't do it on purpose. Putting her away tacked up and not fed isn't going to stop it, she's not a kid in time out, she is an animal. You are going to have to really committ to starting over with this horse from the ground up to gain her trust, only then will she listen to you under saddle, there are no quick fixes now, so you'll have to decide if you are willing to put in the time to fix it.

[Tralee]

I had the same problem with the horse I have now. He was a dream when I first bought him, but after a while he started taking off towards the fence and would do a sliding stop right before the fence and rear up all the time. I had no idea what to do so I called a riding instructer and asked her what to do, all I had to do was : Pull back on the rains pretty hard and kick as hard as you can. Sounds pretty brutal, but it actually works. I'd hold on if I were you, because you dont know exactly how she's going to react. If she doesn't really respond, I would get a pair of "humane spurs" that look like this (http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/assets/product_images/Equine/HumaneSpur.jpg) if you dont use spurs already... good luck, I hope you are able to make a decision!

How does this solve anything? You are giving the horses mixed signals.That would cause a horse to rear because they feel trapped. You have to leave somewhere for them to go. IMO it borderlines abusive. If you horse is grabbing the bit and bolting then you should give your hands, and push forward. Then you turn their head to the inside and circle them. If you don't give your hands you will be fighting against the horse. When you give the horse has nothing to pull back against.

[Toby's my baby]

How does this solve anything? You are giving the horses mixed signals.That would cause a horse to rear because they feel trapped. You have to leave somewhere for them to go. IMO it borderlines abusive. If you horse is grabbing the bit and bolting then you should give your hands, and push forward. Then you turn their head to the inside and circle them. If you don't give your hands you will be fighting against the horse. When you give the horse has nothing to pull back against.


Ok guys, I didn't mean pull back as hard as you can, just so that the rains aren't loose and the horse is gonna run away from you. It doesn't make any sense to let it run, you are just letting it get away with more. Works for me, and I'm sorry if you all have different opinions, I was only trying to help, sorry, I'll just keep it to myself from now on.

[areias]

Went to the clinic today. I am going to redefine Ava under the catergory "buddy sour". When everyone was out in the arena she was fine, when I went to go turn away from the group, about 1/4 of the time she acted up a little, but not bad at all, just resisting. She was actually very good. She got through the ground work fine, we did well for that, and also did fine when we were doing mounted excercises.

I'll give the trainer credit that he is a decent, solid horse trainer. He does need improvement in the clinician department though. He talked a lot and demonstrated a lot, but when he (finally) turned us loose to do our own stuff, he was still working on his green mule and didn't really keep an eye on everybody, just the people that were not getting it at all. I didn't feel that we did a whole lot either, for our money's worth. I got to talk to him about Ava, and he saw (only one of the times) when she acted up. His advice was to keep on with ground work, let her respect you. When you go to get on her, to MAKE her go away from the gate, let her pick a direction at first. If she won't go forward..."cowgirl up", if need be grab the horn and as much leg as needed to make her go and be prepared for a buck or a leap or something, "but at least she won't be rearing and she'll be going forward". I'm not sure about that, I guess it wouldn't hurt to try..but maybe it would? :p I have a couple other tricks up my sleeve though.

I asked him also about the bitting thing (she won't take a bit) and he tried after the clinic. She pulled all her tricks about putting a bit in and he wasn't able to. He attempted to put a lead rope in and she almost came down on me, she reared and almost toppled over. He did it again and again and she eventually was able to get the lead rope in, so I was happy with that.


I don't know...I don't think I really learned anything to help her other than I what I have already heard. Like I said I have a few more things to try before I'm close to making a decision. The more I look at her the more I think she would be happier as a group lesson horse. :confused:

[areias]

Interesting update....

I went and rode her yesterday. It took me a minute to get on, as I was wearing tighter jeans and she's tall :rolleyes:...she was getting annoyed with me, but eventually I hoisted myself up there. We were in the back field where she is the worst. Well...I went once, twice around the field walking and trotting...then went back the other way and did the same..and do you know what she did??



NOTHING. Absolutely positively...nothing. She was an angel. After about 15miutes I cut it short to reward her, and walked her out to the very back of the field to get off her-and she stood stock still while I dismounted. Usually she jigs around and if I want off I have to deal with her moving all over the place. I don't know what the difference was...and if it was just a fluke or if this is it. The only thing I did differently was when I first went to get her, I sat out in the little paddock with her and worked on trying to get the lead in her mouth (which didn't happen, but anyway..) and doing a few of the excercises that we did with the trainer.

So I don't know..we'll see what happens next time. I just can't believe there were no problems whatsoever. Maybe she is starting to respect me more? In preparing to ride her, I put a halter under her hackamore with a long lead rope in case there were problems, and I also dropped the reins and rode her with just a single lead rope! (Pull to the left, and neck rein to the right!) I'm pretty excited about this. I hope we can keep it up. :D :D


EDIT: One hour later..I need to ask something. I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. I was looking at some the old picture posts of shows and everything, and thinking I would like to get her into some of the gaming events...and then I specifically remember the girl saying that she had some trouble with Ava at night at the shows, being seemingly afraid of the shadows of the barrels. And she has been getting a little head-shy, she struck out at the barn owner when she tried to treat a gash on her face. If you are careless and make a quick movement to her face, or accidently knock something into her muzzle or something, she'll throw her head up and back up quickly. I wonder if she might (might) have a vision problem? And maybe that would be associated with the clingy behavior? Any way to tell from looking at the eye? She's also tripped over silly stuff lately, like an ant pile..I thought it's just because shes due for her foot trim. Maybe she just can't see well??

Hmmm...I think a vet visit is in order!