Desperately Seeking Advise

[TAJ]

Hello, I am new to this site and I am desperately seeking any advise, good or bad, before making a decision I may regret...any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

My husband and I recently rescued a 14 month old male Great Dane from Michigan. We received minimal information regarding his background history, other than he came from a "backyard breeder" who kept him in a small crate for 10 to 18 hrs a day (may explain a lot). He has been in two foster homes in the past two weeks and is severely underweight The rescue/foster people told me that he showed no signs of aggression whatsoever...the consensus was that he was a "sweetheart", a "Real Gem", an "angle", and that he has a very good temperment/disposition and gets along very well with other dogs and cats, but he has had minimal people/animal socialization.

We brought him home last Sunday and tried introducing him to my 10 year old bouvier/wolfhound mix, Maggie - I knew this was going to take some time but I wasn't anticipating Maggie's drastic reaction to this new member of the family. She has always been mild-mannered but can be territory aggresive. She has been the only dog in the house since putting her companion Lab to sleep 1 year ago. The first day, we spent a lot of time outside trying to acquaint the two dogs, then we decided to bring them in to the house (big mistake), Maggie went straight to her doggie bed, he sniffed her muzzle, she growled and snapped (her usual reaction), but instead of backing down, the Dane attack her. She went to lay in a corner and he went after her again. It took me hours to settle her down (rapid heart beat and shaking). The second day was not too bad...they did not pay much attention to each other. We keep them separated in the house at all times. Outside, I am slowly trying to reacquaint the two by letting him sniff her, however he got a little too close to her yesterday, she growled & snapped at him and he went after her again..I was able to pull him off before a fight broke out. He has a tendancy to bite down on my arm and when reprimanded he will growl and show his teeth (they told me that this is his way of playing). I understand he will try to demonstrate his dominance but shouldn't he be the submissive one and respect HER environment after these few altercations?

My other concern is Maggie's health...her whole environment has been disrupted...she hasn't eaten in 3 days yet she's had diarrhea and been vomitting for three days, she's been salivating excessively, and losing hair in clumps...her gum color is not as pink as I would like it to be (dehydrated). My vet recommended giving her electrolytes or putting her on IV fluids for a day. She also recommended getting rid of the Dane ASAP.

Will there ever be harmony between the two, or will I have to keep them separated? Is this worth all the stress on my poor old girl? I don't know what to do...I know they say that the first two weeks are the toughest and my heart is telling me to give him a chance, but my common sense is telling me to give the dog back to the Rescue. The last thing I want is to have an injured or dead dog, and it won't be the Dane.

What to do, what to do? Any advise....PLEASE?
Thank you

[critter crazy]

How Old is Maggie??? If her health is being affected and her age is up there you might unfotunatley have to take the new dog, back to the rescue! But I would wait a few more days and go from there. Unfortunately I dont have much more advice to give you. But there are plenty of people here that can better help you! Good Luck!

[borzoimom]

Honey- this doesnt sound good. I think the Dane was unsocialized enough, and with a dog of that size, I hate to tell you what I think your options are here. Can you return him to Dane rescue?
Your dog is telling him- dont do that- and his response is "THE HECK I WONT- DONT TELL ME" ..
I know you love the new dog, but your other dog deserves not to be terriorized by the new comer. Short of getting a behaviorist ( and the fact he is growling at you- I dont think there is this option) I would return him for peace in your house before someone gets seriously hurt.

[TAJ]

Thank you for your replies...It's what I needed to hear. I don't want to do anything in haste and be judged that we did not give this rescue a chance. Actually, I'm more concerned about Maggie at this point.

Maggie is 10 (almost 11). Deep down I know I should send him back...I was hoping that this was going to be is "Forever Home", but we do have to think of Maggie...she has earned her right in our household to live out the rest of her days (hopefully a couple more years) in peace and quiet. And right now, her whole quality of living has been disrupted.

I have explained the situation to the rescue and foster people..their replies were to focus our attention on the Dane and not to leave the two dogs unsupervised (no kidding). And after a couple of weeks, if we don't see any improvement with Maggie, we can return him to the Dane Rescue. Do you think a couple of weeks is too long to chance?

I think I know what I have to do.

Thank you so much

[borzoimom]

I would think of maggie first also. Especially at her age. I think if you wait, something might happen.And this is alot of stress on Maggie. They are trained people and will get him the help he needs to get another "forever home". I would be thinking of Maggie. He is showing signs already of aggression towards you. They will get him a skilled trainer when he is returned. Its not like this dog is chihuahua- this is a dane- and totally capable to causing someone or Maggie serious injury.

[critter crazy]

I would use you judgement on this one! You are there seeing what is going on, not the rescue. So if you feel after a few days, that Maggies health is not improving or is further going down hill, i would contact the rescue and return the dane. I hate to say this, but since how Maggie is responding to this new dog, the stress could very well kill her if things dont improve. You are right when you say you have to think about Maggie first!

[Karen]

As long as you can always supervise, I don't think 2 weeks is too much to risk, and while Maggie isn't a puppy, ten isn't THAT old, and as long as she starts eating, and you reassure her that she is the first dog in your hearts, there is hope. But you will be the ultimate judge.

[TAJ]

that's my thinking too...she is the boss!

Thank you so much

BTW, you have a beautiful dog, Borzoimom

[borzoimom]

Thank you, and keep us posted and WELCOME!

[TAJ]

Hi Karen, my husband and I are alternating days-off this week so that we can be with the dogs. Next week is a different story...they will be left in the house by themselves during the day. I will not crate him due to his past experience in crates. It was recommended by my vet that I should lock the Dane in a room, rather than rely on baby gates, or take Maggie to my parent house if we have to leave the house for any duration (may not be a permanent solution, but I don't want the risk of him jumping over the gates and getting to her).

Because Maggie has been V-D for three days, I was told not to give her any food today, but to pump her with fluids. Unless the V-D subsides and she starts eating tonight, I am to bring her in to have her fluids replenished. 3 days of not eating with limited water is not good.

I'll keep you posted

Thanks again.

[TAJ]

I am worried that this stress may cause some other problems...like cardiac arrest or kidney problems...I don't want Maggie to leave this earth sooner than she needs to. My vet just called me again and she wants me to bring Mags in for some bloodwork and fluids

Poor old girl...I feel so terrible for doing this to her, but I really thought she would like another companion (maybe one not so BIG)

[Ceph]

It may be that maggie is not as dominant as the dane....they can be dom-aggressive as a breed sometimes I think...The only thing I would suggest is exercise the dane until he is too tired to move, and then train him in manners and in the family rankings. Ever watch Cesar Milan's show? Some of that stuff really works....the dane needs to know he is not in charge and that on the food chain maggie is a wee bit higher up....teach him some manners and things might improve....just a suggestion.

[lovingpaws]

.....yesterday, she growled & snapped at him and he went after her again..I was able to pull him off before a fight broke out. He has a tendancy to bite down on my arm and when reprimanded he will growl and show his teeth (they told me that this is his way of playing). I understand he will try to demonstrate his dominance but shouldn't he be the submissive one and respect HER environment after these few altercations?)quote

Dogs will work out their own dominance issues. They have to work out their own place in the pack. You could have a chiqua. in a new home where there's a St. Bernard, and the Chi will establish dominace.

Also I'm not sure about the dane "biting down on your arm" a behaviorist would really need to see the body lanquage, but with the growl and teeth baring I'm not sure it's not part of "fear bite" which is directed at your dog in response to her aggresion, and you just "got in the way. A friends lab bites down on my arm to say hello, but it's sooooo gentle, and no growling or teeth. Perhaps your dog does not want a buddy, how does she do around other animals. The rescue should also test the dane with other dogs to see just how he is with other dogs. Did they do this, did a behaviorist do this????

[TAJ]

sorry, but what does it mean when someone's reply "...Has been Booed", or ...Has been Frosted" ? I've seen these comments throughout different chats.

I had every intention of working with this Puppy...we were signed up to go to socialization classes (starting next Wednesday), and then onto obedience training (part of the adoption agreement). This dane has so much potential and I have no doubt, that after some consistant training and socialization, he will be PERFECT! He's almost there. It's my 10 year old girl I have to think about. She's #1 right now and I can not take the chance that she will "come around" in two weeks or a month...what if she doesn't...?

I got word from the Rescue people last night and they agree that Zorro should be removed from our home due to Maggie's health. It's breaking my heart and I still have a glimmer of hope that Maggie will show some signs of improvement and acceptance...She is so distant and unresponsive to me and my husband right now....it's like she's telling us, "what have you done to me....bringing this beast into MY home"

[TAJ]

hi again...to answer your question, lovingpaws, I guess my 10 year old has always been a little dominant...she will put another dog in it's place if they get in her space...usually with a little growl, they will back down and know not to get too close. And then there are other dogs in the neighborhood (2 labs and a sheltie - all males) that she has no issues with...she gets so excited when we meet up on our walks...leaps and bounds. I think in this case, when she told him to 'back off" and he retaliatied, she was no longer in control of her domain...I really don't know what they think?

As for the biting, we have been alternating play/walk times so he hasn't been around Maggie...he will bite down on my arm to play...it's almost like a "boredom" thing...but when you tell him "NO" he gets more excited and that's when he shows his teeth or growls. He only came to the Rescue Shelter about 2 1/2 weeks ago and I'm sure they did some sort of behavoural study before placing him up for adoption...I'm sure they wouldn't adopt out an aggressive dog. As far as I know, the only dogs he's had any interaction with are the dogs in the foster homes...Prior to that he was kept in a small crate in the backyard or garage for all of his life.

[cyber-sibes]

You can continue to try & let them get their pack order straight, but personally, I would opt for the emotional health of the older dog. Went through something similar here - had two dogs, one died, eventually tried to introduce another dog to my female, Star. but she is the Queen of the Universe, and the other dog started to annoy her. (took her food away, peed on her house, knocked her out of the way all the time) She got extremely withdrawn & moody - not like her usual outgoing self. She started having hot spots again & was very nervous. She refused to get into a car with him. She finally bite him in the face one day after he'd been here a month... I returned him to the shelter once he healed up. He was very successfully rehomed as an only dog. We did finally find a dog whose personality (submissive) worked well with her, and now they are inseparable. Peace is bliss. Just like with people, not everyone gets along, even though we'd like them to.

[TAJ]

I'm glad to hear you went through a similar situation with your older dog. It's a tough call. I know it has only been a week and I have tried to stay positive, hoping that they will establish their ranks in the house, but seeing Maggie in this state, I couldn't chance giving it another 2 weeks or so.

Yes...my darling Maggie is queen of her domain too, although I think she is quite intimidated by his size and strength. She too has become very moody and unresponsive, but is also very dehydrated. I'm sure this is the cause of the prolonged vomiting and diarrhea. She won't come near me until it's time to go to bed. Hopefully she will bounce back soon after the puppy is gone.

We are bringing the puppy Dane back to the rescue/foster home on Sunday. It's going to be so hard to say good-by to this big goofy fella, but it's for the best...I think! (I am so attached to him)

Wishing everyone a great Friday!

[TAJ]

Thanks to everyone for their feedback...I really appreciate your advice

have a great day

[Marigold2]

I am so sorry to hear about the problems you have been having. What is it they say no good deed goes unpunished. I don't have any advice, just wanted you to know I think you are doing a good thing and which ever why you decide to go it is apperent your heart is in the right place. Best of luck.

[TAJ]

Thank you Merigold2...I do feel I am making the right decision, for everyone's sake. We will definitely get another dane, or two (puppies) once Maggie passes on.

Cyber-sibes, I'm sorry...I just read my reply back to you and I didn't mean to come across that I am "Glad you went through the same thing..." What I meant to say was that I'm glad that there is someone else out there who has experienced the same unfortunate situation as I have and making the decision to get rid of the new pup was a very difficult one.

Sorry if you misenterpreted it...I did!

Have a great day!

[cyber-sibes]

:D oh, not a problem, I didn't take it that way at all. sometimes it helps to know you arent' the only one whose had a problem. Your decision to return the dane sounds like the right call in this case. Hope Maggie bounces back soon - I'm sure she will!

[Hugo]

When you rescue a large dog .
It is wise to know it's history as it could become a danger to you and other pets that you have in the house. You could use a trainner,but he or she will have a big job correcting bad habits that he may have aquired .If your dog is weak or (not well) a large dog by instinct will seek to harm her . so I might suggest that you take the dog back and wait to do your good deed of helping some poor maltreated animal when you can give it all your attention and even then it is a lot of work to correct the wrong that has been done to the poor animal . Only when with a litle guidance from a trainer or behavior specalist will you succeed. I hope this will help . Yours truly, Hugo ....

[TAJ]

Hugo, you have a very good point...I never even gave that any consideration. As for the background history on the rescued Dane, very little was provided, other than he was "Sweet", a 'real Gem" and great with other dogs and cats, but needed work in the obedience department. We really don't know if he was the alpha of the litter or had to fight for his food...no one knows!

We ended up bringing the Dane back to the foster home last Sunday...it was so hard and I was an emotional wreck. Even though we had him for only a week, I grew very attached to him. But I had to consider Maggie's health above anything else. it comforts me to know that he has gone to a foster home where someone will work on his "Issues". He will be well taken care of.

Maggie is starting to come around...She finally ate a full meal on Monday morning (after the dane was out of her house and her food dish put back in it's normal spot)...she is still a little unresponsive towards me, but I think she's still mad at me for bringing this beast into her house. They are creatures of habit!

We will consider rescueing another dog after Maggie passes on.

Thanks to all for your great advise and support....much appreciated! It made the decision to bring the dog back a little less difficult (I don't feel so guilty).

Have a great day!

[borzoimom]

I am sorry to hear that, but I do believe its for the best. Not only did you do what was right for you, but probably him too. Maybe he needs a no other dog type of him.

[pitc9]

I'm so sorry you had to take the Dane back... but it was for the best!

Hugs to you and please feel free to post pictures of Maggie!!

[Thandi]

I had to do the same with my rainbow Thandi, the rhodesian ridgeback. She had been with goldens as a youngster and so we adopted one, but with 10 hours I knew it was a huge mistake and took the golden back to the rescue people. After Thandi died we rescued first Mika, a boxer/lab/heinz and a year later Chloe, a shep/rottie/bc and they live soooo incredibly happily together. Sometimes the older dogs just can't give up half of their space. You did the right thing.

[TAJ]

Thandi, sorry you had to go through that as well...we think we're doing the right thing, a) by rescuing another dog, and b) thinking that the older dog needs a companion...but, sometimes things don't work out that way. Maggie's age and disposition would not allow any other dog in her space, inside or out. I brought so much stress into Maggie's life, and after one day, I felt so guilty for doing this to her. I also felt so obligated to Great Dane Rescue and to this dane to make the relationship work, knowing in my heart that it was a huge mistake. Now I can say "we tried..."

Thank you all for being so supportive...I'm so glad I found this site. Have a great Friday...!!!

Here's a picture of Maggie