Family dogs starting to be aggressive with each other???

[tavshoti]

Hi All!

I'm new here, wanted to find a spot to get some advice on my dogs behavior.

I have a 3 yr old english bulldog and an almost 3 yr old red doberman (both spayed). I bought them only months from each other and they have grown up together. Neither have been crated, good dogs in general. Over the past year they have gotten more and more aggressive with each other. Both are females and I have a feeling they both want to be alphas. Our bulldog is a pusher...always jumping at the doberman, growling at her in a "come get some" sort of way. The doberman is fairly passive around her, but will randomly walk up to her and start licking her (which bugs the bulldog), puts her paw on her head, etc. The doberman is clearly the alpha.,..but it is like the bulldog won't accept it and is always trying to get on top of the food chain. They have over the past 6 mths become more and more aggressive with each other...some of the fights have gotten very rough. puncture wonds on ears, cuts, punctures on legs...you name it. I had asked the vet about it before it got bad and he said that they just need to establish the pecking order and to let them work it out on their own. Now we feel we have to break it up though...the bulldog is no match for our doberman and the doberman will just chew her up...and the bull dog will NOT back down. I'm afraid they will really hurt each other if I don't step in some how. They use to back down immediately when my husband or I walked in the room...now the doberman will back down but the bulldog will just lunge at her and keep attacking. Any suggestions at all?

The dogs 90% of the time get along well, play together, won't go outside without the other, etc...but the fighting is horrible when it does happen! They NEVER show any aggression towards people, gentle as can be with adults and children...just have issues with each other.

I'm so lost...what should I do???
Deborah

[Sara luvs her Tinky]

I don't have any advice to offer i'm sorry...

but welcmoe to Pet Talk...

I'm sure you will get some good advice here! :)

[BOBS DAD]

Not sure what to do exactly either, but I can add that it is generally not a good idea to step in between two dogs feverishly going at it. Use a broom or some extension of you hands to separate them as when they are in fight mode, they are usually indesciminate about what/who they bite.

My dogs are doing the same thing. But mine are much smaller. You don't know us (PTrs ) yet, but my Bob is a Terrier and a Terror. He is also Mentally Unstable (Not Really). He is always picking fights and will not back down. Trouble is Ginger will only take so much and then she tears into Bob. They seem to go in waves. I did notice that they have been good for a long time. And then my wife brought Pig Ears home from the Petstore. This seems to set Bob off. He thinks he owns all Pig Ears in the World. He can have 10 himself and he will want the 11th Ginger has.

As long as the Pig Ears are around - not even in sight or in use - he is in the bullying stage, and is always looking around guardedly. If I go to pet Ginger, he comes flying over.

We got rid of the Pig Ears and it has been a couple of days. Bob is starting to realize that they are no where to be found and ironically, he is starting to calm down and letting his guard down.

So, maybe if you have anything that could be considered "private property" by any of the two - deny them both it and establish yourself as "the one and only ALPHA".

[LilacDragon]

Seperate them now and forever.

Having two bitches so close in age is not a good thing - as a general rule of thumb. Since you are starting to have "problems", chances are that you will not be able to get them to peacefully cohabitate any longer. They need to be seperated. You might be able to get away with having them loose together when you are present to stop any issues that might come up - but you MUST be vigilant and be instantly on any growling, posturing or "hard" looks.

I wouldn't in a million years leave these girls loose together when you are not home or unable to pay attention to them.

Please be aware - bitch fights can be DEADLY. The chances of your problem getting worse instead of better are about 100%.

Sorry I couldn't give you better news. :(

[Karen]

You need to start right now and establish that neither of them is alpha - YOU are! Keep a spray bottle of water handy, if that will distract them from fighting, use it. When they start squabbling, redirect their attention to you, and away from each other. The bulldog may have no cepncept that she is not as big as the Dobe - some smaller dogs never do understand that!

This is not an unsurmountable problem, but it will be work for the humans in the family.

[caseysmom]

You need to start right now and establish that neither of them is alpha - YOU are!


That is exactly what I was thinking Karen.

[tavshoti]

I'll try the water bottle when they start. I do use a broom handle at this point to pry them off each other. As I mentioned, the dobe backs down fairly fast...but the bulldog is strong and lunges until you completely remove her from the situation. Usually my husband grabs the bully and I grab the doberman. I had no idea that having two females of the same age would cause issues, we always had two females growing up (two sets that is). Never a problem. I don't want to re-home one, so I guess seperation is the best idea unless we are home and in the same area. They don't fight if we are in the same location as they are...but they do posture, give the hard looks, etc. Usually it is the bully that does that and starts growling. So hard because the bully rolls right over when we reach down to pet her...not an aggressive bone in her towards humans. I use to worry that my doberman would be the aggressive dog...but she isn't unless she is at witts end.

Thanks for all the suggestions...looking forward to reading all you folks can provide!!!

Deborah

[Kfamr]

As others said, you need to establish with them that NEITHER is alpha, you are. A great way to establish this is the "Nothing In Life Is Free" training. Want a treat? You have to sit for it. Want to go outside? You have to sit for it. Want to play with this toy? You have to sit for it.

You can choose any command for them to do, sit seems the easiest, but either way they have to do something to please you to get what they want.

Also, I'm not sure how they are fed/walked/given treats - but do not give one dog food first/treat first/etc if the other can see it. Luckily, you only have 2 so you can give a treat to each of them at the same time.

I have three so it's very hard to treat them by myself. ;) When giving treats I start out with "EVERYONE - SIT!" Once they've all controlled the ants in their pants and sat down, I place the treat in their mouths and tell them to wait. They hold them in their mouths until I say okay, so they all get to eat their treat at the same time. It's worked very well because my two females had always tried to establish dominance over eachother. My males has always been alpha between all three, but they KNOW that I come before him.


Anyways, do a search for NILIF. Seperate training sessions as well as time with them together would be ideal.

[pnance]

I have to agree, make sure they know your alpha. I have 2 females < 1 yr apart and they've had some issues as well. Both females want to be dominant. Basically I make sure neither get that impression. They're fed at the same time, and I'm careful never to give either of the girls a treat before the others. (I have 4 dogs, but my 2 boys could care less). The girls play, even sleep back to back at times, but I've seen then go for eachother throats before. Basically if there is even the hint of a stare down, growling or posturing I stop it immediately. Usually a stern voice saying their name is enough, they've learned that while they are fighting for the top spot I have the top spot so they usually respond instantly. If it continues then I usually give them a distraction, toy, rawhide whatever. It sounds like your Dobi respects your alpha position, but not you bulldog since the Dobi backs down but the bulldog doesn't. Working with that be careful not to let either of them think they're alpha over you.

[bellamia_525]

I don't know if this will help, but my parents were the same way, they got one dog and a while later got another and for years they were fin. Minor spats here and there, but about a year ago it started to get really bad, they were fightening all the time and really fightening. There would be cuts on the and blood on the floor. They are both females and spaded, but they just fought so much because whoever didnt start it had to go back at the other one. needless to say the both have to seperated now :( .

[borzoimom]

Alright- my concern here is the size difference with the smaller and shorter dog thinking she is boss.. I have a strange thing to toss into the mix. Believe it or not, a mild anal gland infection will give another dog the impression of "musk" meaning arrousal when actually its not there. It doesnt even have to be an infection- just an mild impaction of the anal glands. When was the last time both ( especially the bulldog) was checked by a vet for expelling the anal glands.
These anal glands can be confusing to dogs- it can convince a young male that a female is in heat, and cause fighting amoung females.. When was this last checked?

[borzoimom]

Let me further explain why I see this- first of all- this has been a gradual process- second- an aroused dog will put off a slight musk,.. But if they are slightly impacted, or especially if it shows up when one or both are excited, this scent is sending a mis signal to the other dog. Then the other thinks this is dominance musking and gets defensive.
If they were my dogs, I would run them by the vet to check this. I would bet- BET this is the source.. This condition can mascarade for months- and considering dogs are smell orientated it is making a situation.. Please do this- just trust me..

[bluebird]

Normally when two bitches take a permanent dislike to one another, they don't get along at all and must be constantly seperated. In your case it would seem that something in particular is triggering these battles.

Do you have any clues as to what that trigger might be; toys, food, treats, attention, accidental bumping, direct eye contact?????

[catnapper]

Ok, this is a new bahvior for them? Whenever I hear of two dogs that previously got along and suddenly started to turn aggressive towards each other, I think medical issues. Get them both to the vet for a complete health check, and something tells me ot check thyroid.

[tavshoti]

Hi All,

Thanks for the responses. I had both dogs for a yearly check up about 3 mths ago and both were fine (glands were checked) and I did ask if there was anything I should do about the issues. This vet said it was obviously an issue and to call a behaviorist as he didn't have suggestions.

Yes, they do get along fairly well "to my eye" in general. They sleep right next to each other, play outside, etc. I don't notice that there is an obvious cause to the fighting. My Dobe does eat first (although I have two dishes in seperate areas), she will often pace from one dish to the other (which I have started to get on her about so that my bully will eat at the same time). The bully does give her the eye if the Dobe is standing in a room, etc. It is like they dare each other to move and if one does...a storm breaks out. The Dobe licks the Bullys head a lot...which the bully hates, and she puts her paw on the bullys head, back, etc. If the bully moves...a growl or fight will start if we don't snap at them. In turn, the bully will randomly walk up to the Dobe and get in her face (well, as much as she can for being so much shorter) and stare her down (her tail puffs up as well), if we try to pet the Dob the bully will charge over and start growling and nipping at her legs (usually the dobe will just walk away). It is strange though...they can fight, then 20 minutes later do the play bow at each other and chase around the yard. I did notice my bully tends to pee in the yard and then do the kicking/scratching of the ground with her back legs (which I though only males did?). She just seems to REALLY have a dominant personality.

So when I let them out, who do I let out first? They already know that we go out first, then they can...but they don't fit out at the same time. Since my bully tends to charge the door to beat the dobe out, I have (for the past two days) made her sit at the door until after the dobe goes out and if she freaks out I roll her over (with the thought that I'm the Alpha and say when she can go out). I don't want to make the issues worse though. I'm going to start feeding them in seperate rooms and trying to make sure they get attention time seperately instead of at the same time. I'm just really afraid of doing things that would potentially make the issue worse in any way. Last night they didn't fight at all. I think they each started a growl session seperately (different times) but we got on them about it right as it started and it stopped immediately.

Ughhh...what a nightmare. Hate seeing my girls not get along! :rolleyes:
Deborah

[tavshoti]

Oh, wanted to add that we do make them do a chore, trick, etc. for any sort of treat, petting, food. I think we will have to get back to some basics as my bully is trying to avoid the sitting these days and they use to just respond immediately to hand signals. :(

[bluebird]

It sounds like you're on top of the situation and have pretty much figured out when the fights are likely to break out and who's the instigator. If you never leave them alone and unattended and continue to be as aware of their body language as you have been, you should be able to nip it in the bud.

Whenever the bully starts growling or they make prolonged eye contact; continue doing what you've been doing such as distracting them or giving your own command version of "knock it off"!


You'll most likely always have to be on guard for telltale signs, but in the meantime you'll be breaking the pattern they've been establishing. With vigilance you should be able to control the situation over time and these events should become rare to non existent.

Good luck!

[catnapper]

I just want to let you know that when my two girls started to attack each other that one actually was VERY sick. I knew something was wrong - I knew she wasn't acting "right and spent a fortune on vet tests, etc that all came back perfectly normal. The vet thought I was absolutely nuts and ran etsts they felt were useless.... I knew my dog and knew something was "off" with her. Sammie died within 6 months of starting the fights. The vet figures she had cancer that we didn't detect with tests and physical exams (I've since found a new vet).

I've heard of this scenario several other times with dogs in my classes and in rescue. Often one dog is sick when these saudden fights erupt.

[lovingpaws]

..." if we try to pet the Dob the bully will charge over and start growling and nipping at her legs (usually the dobe will just walk away).

.... Our bulldog is a pusher...always jumping at the doberman, growling at her in a "come get some" sort of way. The doberman is fairly passive around her, but will randomly walk up to her and start licking her (which bugs the bulldog), puts her paw on her head, etc. The doberman is clearly the alpha.,." QUOTE

Actually it sounds like the bulldog is the alpha. The alpha would "growl" at a move she didn't like by other dog, Alpha would be "eyeing" the food while eating and be ready to "charge" if the Dobe is getting attention/petted (also this shows her attempting alpha status over you, as she's now "telling you" you can't pet your dobe by running her off). Also submissive dogs are the ones to go to others and lick them. I would keep that in mind. I believe it's the bully who thinks she's the alpha, and you need to establish yourself alph over her as mentioned in previous posts.

[borzoimom]

Well usually with females, the conflicts are early, then they settle down. Males it goes from wow buddies - to wait a minute- who is boss here??!!
I would still check the anal glades to rule out a musk. Especially since they get along better after they have been out ( explosion so to speak..... ... .. ).. And the arguements occur more if they have been in the house for a while ( non expulsion so to speak.. .. ... )