White Shepherds

[NicoleLJ]

Ever since the White Shepherd topic came up in teh White Boxer thread I thought about making a seperate thread for teh White Shepherd. Where people can ask questions and discuss this beautiful breed.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/9CED9D6D-D6DC-A1D9-9A3CC1BC366D64E4.jpg

So here is some info that I have taken from my White Shepherd History page of my website: http://giftofgracekennels.com/id18.html

The color white is one of the original colors of the German Shepherd Dog (GSD). Max Von Stephanitz, the person who created the GSD breed, owned several white German Shepherds. Hektor, the first registered German Shepherd Dog grandsire, Greif, was white. Ann Tracy's Stoneihurst Edmond, who was whelped in March 27, 1917, was the first registered white German Shepherd Dog who was born and bred in the United States.

The white color became a disqualification in the GSD Standard by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America over 40 years ago. Before that time the white German Shepherd Dog also competed in conformation events along side its colored counterparts.

The White Shepherd can still be registered with the AKC as German Shepherd Dogs but because of the color disqualification, they can not be shown in the AKC conformation ring. Which is one of hte main reasons White Shepherd fanciers wish for breed seperation. So that we can enjoy the same rights that the colored German Shepherd Dog fanciers enjoy.

There are many falsehoods that still exist today about the genetics of the white gene in the White Shepherd. Some like to say it is an albino trait or that it causes deafness or blindness. Other say it is the cause of fading or health problems. All this has been proven to be untrue. Many of the falsehoods about the White Shepherd happened before modern genetics research. Even though these rumors have been proven to be false, the rumors have been hard to correct.

The falsehoods about the White Shepherds and the gene that causes their coat color are many. First White Shepherds are NOT albinos. Albinos have no pigment and usually pink eyes. The White Shepherds have brown eyes and black pigment on their noses, mouth, paw pads, eye rims,sometimes a black dusting in their ears and sometimes have darker skin and nails.

Color paling was another rumor that has since been proven false. The white gene is a masking gene, not a dilute gene (such as liver and blue). A masking gene hides the real color and pattern of the dog. A White Shepherd can be any color found in the German Shepherd Dog like black, black and tan, black and red, black and silver, black and cream, blue, liver, sable, saddled and bi-colored. The only time dilution could occur is when a White Shepherd is masking a diluted color like blue or liver. The white gene is a recessive gene. The only thing the gene expresses is coat color. It does not cause poor health, temperament or any other.

In the 1960's, the white color became a disqualifying fault in the German Shepherd Dog standard determined by the German Shepherd Dog Club of America. Before this happened, the white German Shepherd Dog was able to compete with its "colored" counterparts in the AKC conformation ring. The White Shepherd can still be registered as a German Shepherd Dog by the AKC and can still participate in AKC performance events.

For over 30 years, white German Shepherd Dog fanciers worked to change the German Shepherd Dog standard to allow them to once again show in the AKC conformation ring. This has not worked. And shows very little chance of actually coming about. Hence the reason for breed seperation.

In the UKC the White Shepherd can compete as a German Shepherd Dog or a White Shepherd. The White Shepherd has also succeeded in becoming a seperate breed with the FCI as well.

White Shepherds can perform in and excel at AKC performance events like obedience, tracking, agility, flyball and herding trials. White Shepherds can be police dogs, bomb detection dogs, drug sniffing dogs, and Search and Rescue dogs just to list a few. They are also great family pets, service dogs, farm dogs, therapy dogs, and they have also apeared in many movies and tv shows. The ablities of these dogs have no end.


So lets get this discussion rolling.
Nicole

[rutylr]

Great thread Nicole.
I was lucky enuff to be asked to Judge the WS nationals.And I saw some great looking White Shepherds there.
Here is the AWSA standard
White Shepherd Breed Standard
AWSA Membership Approved October 12, 2002
PREAMBLE
The White Shepherd is a direct descendent of the German Shepherd Dog and the two breeds share common roots and are similar in appearance. However, the White Shepherd evolved from a continuous selection for a working companion dog with that exclusive color, beauty and elegance as seen both standing and in motion. His high degree of intelligence and sense of loyalty have allowed him to become one of the most versatile working dogs serving mankind.
GENERAL APPEARANCE
The White Shepherd is a well developed and balanced animal with the look of intelligence, energy and purpose in life. It should have a regal appearance with secondary sex characteristics being distinctive. The dog should be somewhat longer than tall, with smooth curves rather than sharp angles. Extremes of anything distort type and are to be strongly discouraged. This is a herding dog that must have the agility, freedom of movement and endurance to do the work required of it. When gaiting, the dog should move smoothly, with all parts working in harmony. Overall balance, strength, and firmness of movement is to be given more emphasis than a sidegait showing a flying trot. Staying true to type is defined by the following word picture and this diagram.

SIZE, PROPORTION, SUBSTANCE
Body Proportion -- The dog is somewhat longer than tall -- the ideal ratio of length to height being 10 to 8.8. E.g., 28.4 inches (72.1 cm) long to 25 inches (63.5 cm) high. Body length is measured from the prosternum to the point of the buttocks. Height is measured from the highest point of the shoulder blade to the ground. Ideal height and weight is 25 inches (63.5 cm) and roughly 75-85 pounds (34-39 kgms) for males, and 23 inches (58.4 cm) and about 60-70 pounds (27-32 kgms) for bitches. Acceptable range of height is about 1 inch (3 cm) in either direction of the ideal. Any dog that is so over or undersize as to be outside of the acceptable range is highly objectionable and should be faulted.
HEAD
Proportionate in size to the body. Males should show masculinity without coarseness; bitches should show femininity without being over-refined. Both sexes should exhibit a look of intelligence and nobility. Skull -- Viewed from the top, the skull is wedge-shaped, clean cut and strong. When viewed from the side, the topline of the skull should parallel that of the top of the muzzle and there should be a moderate stop. There should be no tendency toward an overly long, narrow or Collie-like head. Insufficient stop or a round or domed skull is faulty. Muzzle -- The muzzle is strong and dry and the lips fit tightly over the well-developed jaws. The nose should be black. Viewed from above, the muzzle appears wider at the stop than at the tip and there should be no tendency toward cheekiness. A snipy muzzle or a receding lower jaw is faulty. Eyes -- Brown, dark for preference. The eye rims should be black. The expression is keen and intelligent, yet composed. The eyes are medium sized, almond shaped, and set a little obliquely. Round or protruding eyes are faulty. Blue or pink eyes disqualify a dog. Ears - Size in proportion to the rest of the head. The ears are moderately pointed and open toward the front. They are carried erect when at attention. The ideal carriage is one at which the center lines of the ears, from the front, are parallel and perpendicular both to each other and to the ground. Soft ears spoil the desired noble and alert expression and are faulty. Cropped or hanging ears are a disqualifying fault. Teeth -- 20 upper and 22 lower; a full mouth is preferred. Dogs missing more than one premolar should be faulted. Broken teeth are not considered a fault. The teeth meet in a close scissors bite. A level bite is faulty. An overshot bite is a severe fault. A dog exhibiting an undershot mouth must be disqualified.
NECK, TOPLINE, BODY
Neck -- Length is proportionate to the size of the head. The neck is strong, muscular and dry. Except when at attention or excited, the typical carriage of the head is forward rather than up, particularly in motion. A ewe neck or one that is too short or throaty is faulty. Topline -- The withers should be higher than and slightly sloping into the back. There should be no evidence of a dip behind the wither, nor should the topline itself sag or roach from the wither to the croup. Body -- Solid without bulkiness. The White Shepherd should be shown in lean, hard physical condition. Chest -- The forechest is well filled and the prosternum is prominent. The chest is deep with the brisket reaching to the elbows. A shelly chest is objectionable. Depth of chest should be approximately 48 to 50 percent of the total height of the dog. Ribs -- The ribs are long, well sprung, and are carried well back. The shape of the chest is important. It must never be so wide or round as to interfere with the action of the elbows and the forelegs. Neither must it be so flat as to cause the elbows to pinch in. Underline -- Only moderately tucked up in the flank -- never like that of a Greyhound. The abdomen is firmly held and never paunchy. Back -- The back is short, straight and strongly developed. Loin -- Viewed from the top, broad and strong. From the side, the loin is relatively short and blends smoothly into the back. Croup -- Long and gradually sloping, flowing smoothly into a low set tail. In the ideal dog, the croup slopes gently away at an approximate angle of 23° from the horizontal. Too level or flat a croup prevents proper functioning of the hindquarter, which must be able to reach well under the body. A steep croup also limits the action of the hindquarter. Tail -- Bushy, with the last vertebrae extended at least to the hock joint and usually below. At rest, it hangs straight down or in a slight saber-like curve. Even in excitement, the dog should never lift its tail higher than right angles to the backline. The tail is important. The dog uses its tail like a rudder enabling it to keep its balance while being able to turn instantly. In motion, the ideal carriage of the tail is at or slightly below the natural extension of the topline. It is permissible for a dog to carry its tail a bit higher, although the tendency toward a gay tail spoils the overall outline of the dog. A dog with a too short tail or a docked tail must be disqualified.
FOREQUARTERS
Shoulders -- The shoulder blade, or scapula, should be long and well laid back, the ideal angle being about 35° from the vertical. Shoulder layback is estimated by taking a line from the uppermost tip of the scapula to the point of the shoulder (where the scapula meets the humerus) to the ground. Lay-on is flat against the body, with the upper ends fairly close together, forming the point of the wither. Shoulder and upper arm are well muscled but never loaded. The upper arm (humerus) is almost equal in length to the scapula. In the ideal dog, a 102° angle is formed by imaginary lines connecting the point of the elbow with the forward-most point of the shoulder joint and with the highest point of the scapula. This angulation permits the proper maximum forward extension of the foreleg in the working shepherd dog. Faults in the shoulder assembly include: loose or loaded shoulders (bulging muscle pads), a pushed forward shoulder assembly, not enough length in the humerus and a scapula that is too short or steeply set. Forelegs -- The forelegs are straight and parallel with each other. Lower leg bones are oval in shape. Bone substantial but not excessive. Elbows are well held in with no tendency to turn in or out. The point of the elbow lies roughly in a vertical line under the point of wither. Pasterns -- Strong and springy with the ideal angle being about 25° from the vertical.
FEET
Short and compact, toes held closely together and well arched. Pads are thick and tough affording the dog protection over rough terrain. Dewclaws appearing on the rear legs should be removed, those on the front legs may be removed but are usually left on. Nails should be short. Faults in running gear include: terrier-like feet, hare feet, thin pads or splayed feet.
HINDQUARTERS
The whole of the rear assembly somewhat mirrors that of the front. In length and angulation, the scapula and the pelvis roughly equal each other, and the slant of the lower thigh bones roughly approximate that of the pelvis and of the humerus. The pelvis lies tilted backward at an approximate angle of 35° from the horizontal. Whether standing four-square or firmly and naturally with one rear leg extended behind the pelvis, the femur drops almost vertically from the hip socket, forming an approximate 125° angle with the pelvis. The upper and lower thigh bones are all roughly the same length. The thighs themselves, both upper and lower, are broad and heavily muscled. The stifle is well bent; its angulation must never be so steep that the dog’s hocks lie directly under any part of the croup or pelvis. In a correctly angulated dog that is standing in a natural three-point stance (show pose), an imaginary line dropped plumb from the point of the buttocks would land roughly 2 inches (5 cm) in front of the dog’s extended hind foot. Stifles that are too straight or overly long are faulty. The hock joints are strong and the hocks themselves, relative to the rest of the rear assembly, are short, clean and perpendicular to the ground. Whether in motion or at rest, there is no tendency for the hocks to turn in or out. From the rear, the hindlegs drop straight and parallel to each other and the feet point straight ahead.
MOVEMENT
Soundness is of paramount importance. Capability of quick and sudden movement is essential. The action is free, supple and tireless with the dog covering the most amount of ground with the minimum number of steps, all of the parts working together in harmony. From the side, the hindquarters drive forward with the hindfoot reaching far under the body to take firm hold of the ground. The powerful backward thrust is transmitted through a firm back to the front end, where the shoulder opens to the fullest extent possible and the foot reaches out toward the nose. The entire motion lifts the dog’s body slightly and carries it forward. The feet track close to the ground on both forward reach and backward push. At full trot, the back must remain firm, level, and free of roll, whip, or roach. At the extended trot, the dog may appear to overreach, with the hind foot passing to either side of the front foot. This is not faulty unless it causes the dog to move in a crab-like fashion. From both front or rear, the action is that of a single track. From the front, the legs move inward toward a center line under the body in a straight column of support from the point of shoulder to the pad. From the rear, the legs track inward toward a center line in a straight column of support from the hip to the pad. Moving close is faulty. Sidegait, coming and going are equally important and movement front and rear are not to be overlooked in favor of sidegait. Incorrect structure will be revealed in the moving animal. Flaws in gait such as weaving or interfering, paddling, flipping the front paws, weakness at the elbows, stiltiness, moving cow or bow-hocked or in a hackney fashion are highly objectionable and must be regarded as serious faults.
COAT
The White Shepherd has a weather-resistant double coat. The outer coat is medium length, dense, straight, harsh and close lying. The undercoat is short, thick and fine in texture. The head and ears are covered with a smooth, somewhat softer hair while the hair covering the legs and paws is more harsh-textured. At the neck, the coat is slightly longer and heavier. A male may carry a thicker ruff than a female. The back of the legs has a slightly longer covering of hair and there is considerably more hair on the breeches and the underside of the tail. Both a short coat and a long coat are equally acceptable. An open coat is faulty.
COLOR
The coat color is white as defined by the breed’s name and the ideal is pure white. Other coat markings that range from a very pale cream to a light biscuit tan are acceptable, but not preferred. It is important to note that when judging the White Shepherd, temperament, overall quality and movement are to be considered more important than coat color alone. Pigment -- Skin color is pink to gray with gray being preferred. The nose, lips and eye rims should be fully pigmented and black in color. A snow nose is acceptable but is not preferred. Deficiency of pigment is objectionable and dogs exhibiting faded or spotty pigmentation on nose, eye rims or lips should be faulted. Dogs exhibiting the total lack of pigment in the above named areas indicating possible albinism or those that definitely exhibit albinism (such as dogs with blue or pink eyes) must be disqualified.
TEMPERAMENT
The White Shepherd has a distinct personality marked by a direct, but not hostile expression of self-confidence. It is poised but when the situation demands, it should be eager and alert, ready to serve in any capacity such as companion, watch dog or service dog. To his inherent aptitude as a guardian of flocks should be an added protectiveness of the person and property of his family. With those he knows well, he should be open and friendly. With strangers, he should be observant and may be somewhat aloof but never apprehensive. Timidity, shrinking behind the handler, lack of confidence or any other display of poor character or aggression are severe faults. Dogs displaying such pronounced character flaws should be excused from the ring. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified.
FAULTS
Any deviation from these listed specifications is a fault. In determining whether a fault is minor, serious or major, these two factors should be used as a guide:
1. The extent to which it deviates from breed type.
2. The extent to which such deviation would actually affect the working ability of the dog.
DISQUALIFICATIONS
• Blue or pink eyes
• Cropped or hanging ears
• Undershot bite
• Tails that are too short or docked
• Total lack of pigment on the nose, eye rims or lips or dogs that exhibit definite signs of albinism
• Monorchids or cryptorchids
• Any dog that has been surgically or cosmetically altered
• Any dog that attempts to bite the judge

[NicoleLJ]

Thanks rutylr. I wish I could have been there. Next year we are hoping to atend a few shows in teh summer. By then I will have Sheena and hopefully one of her pups to compete with.
Nicole

[rutylr]

Sheena should do well,and if you keep a puppy that ends up looking like her you should kick some WS butt.

[NicoleLJ]

:D lol We hope too. lol. We are hoping to keep a female. That is if she ever gets bred. :rolleyes: This little lady of mine is really making us wait. Every cycle she had except for one she came into heat right on teh exact day. 4 months and 15 days. Last heat she had she was a day late. Well this is the heat we planned to breed her. So guess what. She is really making us wait. She was due to come into heat on teh 27th of October. We are still waiting. lol. Of all teh times to chose to make mom wait. Of cours eit had to be when we want to breed her. Ahh well. It will happen. Just got to be patient.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Very good thread! The whites have seperate requirements .. thank you..

[LilacDragon]

Did I miss something? Did someone decide that German Shepherds that are white are recognized as a breed of it's own somewhere?

Seems to me that according to the German Shepherd Club of America, all white dogs are not only undesireable but are to be immediately dismissed from the ring. This would indicate that any all white puppies born should be altered to prevent any future accidental breedings and if a bitch whelps more then one puppy with more then one stud should be altered.

Calling a white shepherd a seperate breed is kind of like me telling you that long haired rottweilers are a new breed. It is just wrong and to treat them like anything beyond the genetic throwback that they are is dishonest.

[rutylr]

White GSD's have been around for ever,and they use to be allowed to show.Then someone got a bug up their but and decieded they did not like them and had the standard changed to diss allow them from showing.
The White Shepherd is built different from the German shepherd and they are also called White Swiss Shepherd Dog or Berger Blanc Suisse.

[LilacDragon]

White GSD's have been around for ever,and they use to be allowed to show.Then someone got a bug up their but and decieded they did not like them and had the standard changed to diss allow them from showing.
The White Shepherd is built different from the German shepherd and they are also called White Swiss Shepherd Dog or Berger Blanc Suisse.

I must be missing something in the translation. Did some digging and came up with this:


The Weisser Schweizer Schäferhund, or Berger Blanc Suisse, more commonly known as the White Swiss Shepherd, was often considered a mutation of the German Shepherd, until recently when it was finally considered a separate breed after years of campaigning from White Shepherd enthusiasts. Currently, this breed is only recognised by the FCI and the UKC, but more efforts are being made to give the breed worldwide recognition as a separate and distinct breed from the

[zoomer]

I can't get over how gorgeous Sheena is :eek:

[NicoleLJ]

LilacDragon - White Shepherds have always been a part of the GSD. They were even shown along side their colored counterparts for many many years. Even one of the most famous GSD fanciers in America owned and bred whites.

This is Geraldine Dodge with her white Shepherds and her Colored Shepherds
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h264/NicoleLJ_2003/DODGEPIC.gif

It wasn't until the 1960s where it became a fault so they could not be shown with the AKC. Until then they did show with their colored counterparts. For the CanKC they were able to compete next to their colored counterparts till 1995. No white is not a genetic flaw. No white is not the cause of genetic health problems. The White Shepherd is just that. A White GSD. It has no more or no less health problems then a standard GSD. If you read my first post it explains all this. There is no reason what so ever to cull whites(whether by altering them or killing them) that are born just because they are white.

GSD breeders who are agianst whites for the reasons you stated need to do more study on the history of their breed and also more study into the genetic research that has been done to prove that the wives tails about the whites are just that. Wives tails. Just like other breeds have seperated into others because of size(poodles) or coat types(dachsunds) the white is looking to do teh same so they can once agian take their rightful place in teh conformation ring.

Zoomer - Thank you so much
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Did I miss something? Did someone decide that German Shepherds that are white are recognized as a breed of it's own somewhere?

Seems to me that according to the German Shepherd Club of America, all white dogs are not only undesireable but are to be immediately dismissed from the ring. This would indicate that any all white puppies born should be altered to prevent any future accidental breedings and if a bitch whelps more then one puppy with more then one stud should be altered.

Calling a white shepherd a seperate breed is kind of like me telling you that long haired rottweilers are a new breed. It is just wrong and to treat them like anything beyond the genetic throwback that they are is dishonest.
Actually not quite- the white shepherd does have its own club and considered a rare breed by AKC standards.. Like the Leonberger is etc. It is coming close to being accepted in the AKC as a seperate breed based on color. Like how we do the two Belgium varieties or Cockers as well..
Additionally- last I heard they are going to also soon to be admiting the "red and white setter" which actually is a Irish Setter in other countries, but here the Irish has to be red..
The purpose of a "breed" is to be able to established standards and reproduce that standard. That is why designer breeds arent going anywhere- each puppy is widely different, and without registration on the papers to prove they really are whatever they are, people are basically spending 10 times the money they would than if they just went to a shelter and got the same mix.

[NicoleLJ]

I sooo know what you mean about the designer breeds. lol
Nicole

[borzoimom]

sad isnt it.. :(

[animal_rescue]

I do have a question about a foster that my friend is holding for me.

Do you think he is a White German Shepherd Mix or a Husky Mix? He's about a year old.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/nkintzel/Animals/DSCF3131.jpg

Sorry but I thought I'd ask you since you know the breed.

[rutylr]

Looks like he could be.
Looks like the GSD coat and I can see markings around the eyes which could be husky.

[Husky15]

White Shepherds are beautiful dogs. Nicole, Sheena [I believe her name is], is such a beautiful White Shepherd. I always love seeing pictures of her.

And, animal_rescue, when I first saw the picture I thought Husky. And what a beautiful dog!

[NicoleLJ]

Thanks so much. I agree. I see husky. But I could be wrong. It could have both.
Nicole

[.sarah]

I think Mandy is a White Shepherd mix. Of course I don't know for sure because she is a shelter mutt, but every time I see pictures of White Shepherds or even the few that I've seen in real life, they've all reminded me of her so much. And her personality is so Shepherd-like.

I have a question - what color is a White Shepherd's skin? Mandy's is spotted so I've always thought she had Pit Bull in her (I know other breeds have spotted skin but that is a common breed you see in shelters around here). Her face/build is somewhat like a (poorly bred) Pittie's, but I see more Shepherd in her than anything else.

Sheena is gorgeous, by the way!

[NicoleLJ]

Thanks so much. I agree with you. Mandy looks like she has a lot of White Shepherd in her. When I saw her that was one of my first thoughts. She is beautiful. White Shepherds can have a black dusting to their skin coloring. It is not uncommon. I would need to see better pictures to take a guess as to what she is mixed with. Some of her standing like a side profile shot would be great.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

I do have a question about a foster that my friend is holding for me.

Do you think he is a White German Shepherd Mix or a Husky Mix? He's about a year old.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d73/nkintzel/Animals/DSCF3131.jpg

Sorry but I thought I'd ask you since you know the breed.
Husky mix. blue eye in a white shepherd is uncommon, and the stop in the muzzle is not a shepherd but more husky.

[jackfrost]

on a side note, i've read the book written by the man himself Max von Stephanitz back in 1925 and even then he said too much white was unacceptable and white's were not desireable. I think I'll take the word right from the horses mouth so to speak on this one as to wether or not all white shepherds were ever desireable in the breed or not.

[wolfsoul]

I had a white shepherd and a white shepherd mix when I was younger. My coloured GSD had a white shepherd mother. My mix is still going on strong, living with my dad's old roomate --- just some arthritis but nothing bad. My white shepherd pup had to be PTS at 6 months due to severe panosteitis, and my GSD was PTS a couple of years ago due to cancer. Great dogs, I've always loved GSDs, no matter what colour.

From what I have read, the original reason the white shepherd was finally disallowed was due to them blending into the sheep too easily? Is this true?

Lilacdragon, there is nothing wrong with the White shepherd. While I disagree with creating "toys" and "minis" of different breeds, colour does not affect the structore or ability of a dog. It may not be recognised by AKC as a different breed (though they do have the option for white colouring on the registration papers of the German shepherd dog), they are recognised by their own registries and are able to show under those registries. UKC is nothing like the ConKC or some of the other designer registries.

It's like laekenois. They are the same breed as the other varieties, but not only does AKC seperate them into breeds, but they exclude the laekenois -- all because of coat type. Does this mean that US breeders shouldn't breed laekenois? Because they are a "genetic throwback?"

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul - great post. To answer your question no that was not the reason, that was the excuse by some. Some said they were the cause of the diluting colors(proven later to be false by genetic testing) some said it was because tehy were the cause of all teh genetic deseases including blindness and so forth(agian proven false by genetic tests) Soem gave the excuse you just stated which is because they blend into teh sheep. Have you ever seen a herd of sheep? I am not being insultive, I am asking an honest question. I mean in person not from pics. I have. In fact hubby raised his own sheep for several years when he was younger. They are not white. Sheep vairy in color from a dirty gray to a dark brown. Because of dirt and feces and so forth. A White Shepherd like Sheena would no more blend into the flock then Luca would(our black GSD). So agian that excuse was proven false. Some also used th eexcuse that they are not stable in temperment. Well obviously that is false too. I could go on and on.

The fact of the matter is White Shepherds showed in conformation up until the 1960's with teh AKC. This is a provable fact. In the CanKC they showed in conformation until the 1995. This agian is a provable fact. If the White Shepherd was so agianst standard then why did it take so long to have them listed as a Fault? Because it isn't a fault. There is nothing wrong with a white shepherd. It was people's opinions only that got the dog listed as a fault and they had no provable reason for doing so. That is why in several other countries they have now been listed as their own breed. There are many breeds that have seperated into seperate breeds based on coat types or colors. The white shepherd is just doing the same thing.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

[wolfsoul]

Have you ever seen a herd of sheep? I am not being insultive, I am asking an honest question. I mean in person not from pics. I have. In fact hubby raised his own sheep for several years when he was younger. They are not white. Sheep vairy in color from a dirty gray to a dark brown.
I always thought the same thing --The sheep we herd aren't white -- maybe they would be if they had a bath lol. :rolleyes:

[CathyBogart]

I don't have anything "useful" to add...but I think Sheena is simply enchanting, and I'm hoping we'll get to see many many puppy pictures!

OOC, since I'm pretty clueless about genetics, is it possible for her to throw colored puppies from this breeding? Sorry if that's a dumb question. :o

[NicoleLJ]

I don't have anything "useful" to add...but I think Sheena is simply enchanting, and I'm hoping we'll get to see many many puppy pictures!

OOC, since I'm pretty clueless about genetics, is it possible for her to throw colored puppies from this breeding? Sorry if that's a dumb question. :o

Thank you so much. And no that is not a clueless question. I didn't understand genetics for the longest time either. To answer your question Sheena will be having only white puppies. Here is an easier way to look at it:

White to White will always throw white(this is what our breeding is)

White to a dark colored GSD who has a White Shepherd in its pedigree will throw both white and dark colored GSD's

White to a dark colored GSD with no White in his pedigree will only throw dark colored GSD's.

Taht is the simplest way to explain it. I hope that helps. If you have more questions feel free to ask.
Nicole

[NicoleLJ]

I always thought the same thing --The sheep we herd aren't white -- maybe they would be if they had a bath lol. :rolleyes:

Could you imagine being th eone having to bath a herd of Sheep in full coat? no thank you. lol
Nicole

[jackfrost]

The fact of the matter is White Shepherds showed in conformation up until the 1960's with teh AKC. This is a provable fact. In the CanKC they showed in conformation until the 1995. This agian is a provable fact. If the White Shepherd was so agianst standard then why did it take so long to have them listed as a Fault? Because it isn't a fault. There is nothing wrong with a white shepherd.
I guess you missed the part about it being a fault from its inception way back when by the founders. They faulted white, the rest of the world faults a white, and just because they were show within the AKC doesn't really prove anything. WHy is the AKC standard different than the SV standard (original ruling body)?? Read the book written by the man himself, white was considered a fault back in 1925 by the man that created them, why would I or should somebody else think that just because the AKC allowed them to be shown change my mind?? THe AKC hasn't done much in the way of "building" a better GSD.

I don't really care what the reasons were, but they were cut out of breeding programs in the beginning. The reason doesn't matter, but what it created then was a very very small gene pool in which to create whites later by those that chose to go against the standard and do so. And considering the US has been propagating the AKC GSD's with a very small gene pool to begin with, their selection to get white's in this country was even smaller.

[wolfsoul]

Whether or not it was accepted in the beginning, it is now considered a new breed -- a breed where white is the only acceptable colour, from the beginning. I don't think that White shepherd fanciers are fighting to show the breed alongside its coloured counterparts, but rather against them under a different name. If I understand correctly, white shepherd breeders also breed for a sounder structure -- no "hockwalkers" or extreme angulations.

[NicoleLJ]

Whether or not it was accepted in the beginning, it is now considered a new breed -- a breed where white is the only acceptable colour, from the beginning. I don't think that White shepherd fanciers are fighting to show the breed alongside its coloured counterparts, but rather against them under a different name. If I understand correctly, white shepherd breeders also breed for a sounder structure -- no "hockwalkers" or extreme angulations.

Great post. There are some white breeders that do want to be able to show as a GSD. I persoanlly am agianst this. I think we should be our own breed but it is a personal choice. AS for breeding for a sounder structure that is correct. We prefer the old style look over teh problems of the so called newer style. I can't stand the bowed backs or hips that look like they are dragging on the ground.

As for whether the AKC or CanKC sees it as a fault or not is not hte point. The point is they have been around sine hte start of the breed. A pure white dog was the grandsire of the first GSD. So it has always had the color in it. It was accepted for years. Then for really bogus reason not allowed any more. The AKC took longer to fault them and the CKC took the longest. But either way there is no reason at all that anyone can state as to why they are a fault. No genetic reason, no structure reason, and certianly no reason based on what they were originally bred to do.

So I am glad in many parts they are already seen and acknowledged as a seperate breed. I hope the AKC and the CKC follow suit soon. As for the small gene pool it is not as small as you think since many many many breeders incorporate colored GSD's into their breeding programs. And as long as they are a part of the GSD breed and not a seperate bred they will continue to add the colored GSD's into their lines to increase the gene pool.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

am i talking to a wall. Max von stephanitz, you know the guy that started the breed said whites are a fault, should not be bred for and should not but used for breeding. horand had a 2generations away from a white and that white wasn't ever registered with the SV. Who cares what the AKC said, they've done nothing to improve this wonderful breed, the fact they let them be shown for so long shows me just how long they've actually thought about what they stand for. The bowed backs and hips dragging on the ground come from just such breeding stock, the kind the AKC promotes as "champions".

To get the all whites and produce them consistently they had to pair dogs with recessive genes every time, and its what was done. Seeing nobody in the beginning in Germany was breeding for whites CAUSE IT WAS A FAULT, ones that were born that way were often culled. Later, some fanciers took to them and started their gene pool from a very very small stock. White has never been desireable in the history of the GSD. SInce white is recessive you get people breeding white dogs with white dogs to get more white dogs. You didn't get accidental white dogs from good bloodlines.

If someone is breeding away from the working GSD population, then that person is breeding for color and not for the best working temperments. White GSD's are far removed from working GSD populations. They haven't been under the strict breeding requirements of the SV or other countries that continue breeding working GSD bloodlines. I haven't seen a "white" in any working venues for quite sometime. I wouldn't be using the AKC as my model to compare it too, those dogs are a less a GSD than a poodle IMO.

[NicoleLJ]

First off I take offence to teh first sentence. This is a great thread for White Shepherds not a thread where you can decided to insult me or anyone else here. Just because we don't agree with you does not make what we say wrong and does not make what you say rigth. We are each entitled to our opinions. PLease keep that in mind.

Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it. Just because you have not heard or seen it does not mean it doesn't happen.

Whites were an accept part of the breed for a while and not culled. Then when it became a fault some culled, others didn't. They did not come from a small gene pool as you wish to believe. They came form as big a Gene pool as all GSD's. Seeing as how they have been in the breed since the beginning. Just because people minds and opinions changed about it does not mean they are a bad dog or a breed that should not be bred for.

And as for you will not find white shepherds in good bloodlines of GSD's I find that too funny. Many many many times whites are bron to two colored parents where the breeders had not known that they had teh white gene. And they came form great kennels and great lines. Whites are a part of the GSD colors. That is just the way it is.

And breeding two whites is not wrong. Genetics has proven there is not health problems caused by teh white gene. All it expresses is coat colar and that is all. Nothing else. A breed that is only one color is not unheard of either. Look at Irish Setters.

I am not going around saying lets be part of the GSD breed standard. Let us back in to show. Nope. I want seperation so I can stop listening to the rumours(which have all been proven false by genetics) by people who choose not to truely learn about them. White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

Now that is the truth.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it. Just because you have not heard or seen it does not mean it doesn't happen.

Show me some, give their pedigree and the venue. I open for suggestions, just haven't seen anyone in any serious working circles compete or breed to a white ever. I"ve seen some PSD's that were white, some were ok, some were not, same as any dog.


Whites were an accept part of the breed for a while and not culled. Then when it became a fault some culled, others didn't. They did not come from a small gene pool as you wish to believe. They came form as big a Gene pool as all GSD's. Seeing as how they have been in the breed since the beginning. Just because people minds and opinions changed about it does not mean they are a bad dog or a breed that should not be bred for.

OK, since maybe i'm wrong, you tell me when the SV allowed whites, and they were an acceptable color, then tell me when, if ever they've been a desireable color.


And breeding two whites is not wrong.

Never said it was, BUT when you're breeding two dogs of an unacceptable color that is bred to get away from that color, you aren't breeding the best dogs out there. It seems simple to me. As far as I can tell there haven't been whites showing up in euorpean working lines since the 30's with any sort of consistency, so for the past 70 years WHites have been bred with dogs being bred away from the working standard.


I am not going around saying lets be part of the GSD breed standard. Let us back in to show. Nope. I want seperation so I can stop listening to the rumours(which have all been proven false by genetics) by people who choose not to truely learn about them. White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

I'm all for it, I would love to see them prove themselves in work as well as all GSD's should before they are bred. I'm a little sickened that our country can't have sticter breeding standards when it comes to all dogs. I have no personal agenda against white's.


This is a great thread for White Shepherds not a thread where you can decided to insult me or anyone else here.

You can have your thread about White shepherds, my point is your history is innacurate, they have never been allowed and were not desired. It's not my opinion, it;s the words of the founder of the SV, the originator of the breed. Because a white was the great gransire of a foundation dog, doesn't mean much, when for the vast majority of GSD"s born or used in breeding have been used to get away from the white color, you'll have a tough time convincing me that the best dogs were used to get the white color consistently. If that were the case, you'd end up with some whites showing up sometimes, not whites showing up almost all the time by white GSD breeders, which is what you have.

[NicoleLJ]

Ok you wanted examples of these dogs in working venues. Well her are some links of White Shepherds who have excelled in everything from Assistance dogs to military dogs. This is only one breeders progeny and not a full list either.
http://www.hoofprint.ws/service_dogs.html

Here is another great link showing the many different working venues of Whites:
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.com/versatile.htm

And here are some facts about whites:
A White was the first German Shepherd of any color to earn both a Utility Dog (U-UD) title & a Championship with the United Kennel Club.
(WGSDCII/UKC Ch. U-UD Von Tasz' Jack of All Trades, UDX, TDI, HC, OFA H&E)

The Number One ranked German Shepherd in flyball is a White.
(WSCC/UKC Ch. U-CD Crystal's Lil Pistol Von Tasz, Am/Can CD, FDGCH, WETT, DSA, NA, NAJ, HC, CGC, OFA H&E)

The first two German Shepherds to earn the Canadian Kennel Club's Urban Tracking Dog title (UTD) were both White.
(AWSA Alt Ch. Braehead's Bailey v Eis Haus, CD, Am/Can TDX, UTD, BH, FDX, HC, TT, CGC, OFA H&E, PennHIP
& Brock of Eis Haus, Am/Can TDX, UTD, FM, CD, HCs, TT, CGC, OFA)

Need more? I can get a whole lot more. Temperament Test (conducted by Temperament Test Associates of Ontario), 80% of the White Shepherds tested attained their Temperament Test title. I'll stack that up against the "regular" GSDs any day!

I never said the SV was for it. I said they did fault it for many years. And when they did they gave no real good answer as to why seeing how there is no difference what so ever betwwen a white and the colored.

What does breeding two whites have to do with not breeding the best dogs out there? If the dog has the structure, outstanding temperment, drive and so forth how do you know that dog is not the best out there? Just because it is white? That is not a good reason in my book.

The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Ok you wanted examples of these dogs in working venues. Well her are some links of White Shepherds who have excelled in everything from Assistance dogs to military dogs. This is only one breeders progeny and not a full list either.
http://www.hoofprint.ws/service_dogs.html

Ok, you showed me some, but its not ONE breeder's progeny, looks to be many breeders encompassing the past 20+ years or so, I'd expect the list to be 1000X's that big. But whatever.


Here is another great link showing the many different working venues of Whites:
http://www.kerstoneshepherds.com/versatile.htm
They're almost the exact same dogs as in the first link, I see very little in the way of real working titles on those dogs, but I guess they're working.

I don't really care about firsts, i'm talking about consitency and real work. Flyball although fun and exciting does nothing to test the nerve courage, or temperment of a GSD which is of course the real test of the breed.

How many have achieved a TDX title since compared to other working shepherds, how many have achieved an FH or FH II title compared to the others??



Need more? I can get a whole lot more. Temperament Test (conducted by Temperament Test Associates of Ontario), 80% of the White Shepherds tested attained their Temperament Test title. I'll stack that up against the "regular" GSDs any day!

With the amount of BYB's in the US and Canada passing off AKC registerd GSD's and real dog's, like its supposed to suprise me. Give me the dogs represented from an honest GSD breeder, and I'll take that bet any day of the freaking week.


I never said the SV was for it. I said they did fault it for many years. And when they did they gave no real good answer as to why seeing how there is no difference what so ever betwwen a white and the colored.

OK, last time, Whites have been faulted by the SV Since the beginning, they've never been desired, they've always been selected AGAINST from the very start, except by those breeding for color. Those that breed only for color are no better than those that breed only for gait or only for extreme drives, you lose the GSD when you breed for one trait. So, since the beginning you have a color that was selected against being passed on, and you're telling me that somehow you end up with good working dogs?? OK


The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.

If that's what you want to believe. LSP, BSP, WUSV Herding trials, any whites win anything there??? Or even compete Don't bother, I already know the answer.

How do you breed your whites?? what titles do they have to prove their worthiness?? How does that test their nerve, their desire, their courage, their temperment? what venue do you work in??

answer or not, i'm done, i work in these fields, i've researched myself the history of the GSD, and I know what whites are and where they came from. I know what the originators said of the breed, and I know how the current breeding stock in the US came to be

[NicoleLJ]

I am just shaking my head. I answered your questions. I never said that was the whole list. That is just a tiny part of the list. But if you choose to beleive what you do go ahead. I know different. Saying just because a white breeder is breeding for color means they are not breeding for the total package is just plain wrong and laughable.

My breeding program is not in discussion here. And i will not discuss it with someone who has such a narror view of white shepehrds.

You are entilted to your opinion as I am to mine and everyone else here is to theirs. I have shown in this thread that a well bred white Shepherd can do all that a stand GSD can. Which is my whole point. That is why they will be come a seperate breed.

I wonder what Irish Setter breeders or other breeders of breeds with one coat color or type would tink about your post about breeding for only one color. lol
Nicole

[borzoimom]

honey you know who I am in judging- your babies are beautiful and we will talk later okay????

[borzoimom]

Thank you for your pms. Your babies are fine. I judge terriers and herding, and they look good to me without putting my hands on them. I am sending picture of me judging shepherds.

[wolfsoul]

jackfrost -- what you fail to see is that it doesn't matter what rules and what standards accompany and have EVER accompanied the German shepherd dog. We aren't talking about the German shepherd dog here. This is the American white shepherd -- so by saying that only coloured dogs should be bred, you are excluding an entire breed, in which ONLY WHITE DOGS are allowed. Max Von Stephanitz was the founder of the German shepherd, not the American White Shepherd -- so what he thought does not matter. Perhaps what he thought was one of the determining factors in the breed split. No one is fighting to breed white German shepherds. They are only fighting to breed American white shepherds. They are recognised by UKC and FCI, and are on their way to AKC recognition. They are a breed, not a curse against a breed it no longer has anything to do with.

Don't get me wrong, I hate to see one breed split into another, such as in the Belgian varieties -- but in this situation I'm all for it. These dogs have a better future as far as health goes.

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul thank you for saying that so perfectly. You summed it up just right.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Wolfsoul thank you for saying that so perfectly. You summed it up just right.
Nicole
AMEN!!! WELL PUT!

[bluebird]

Thank you for your pms. Your babies are fine. I judge terriers and herding, and they look good to me without putting my hands on them. I am sending picture of me judging shepherds.

Wow this is really exciting! I haven't been reading these discussions for very long and haven't posted very much, I mostly just read. I could tell that you know a lot about dogs but didn't know that you are a judge borzoimom. I'm hoping to get into showing too as soon as I get my German Shepherd pup and it is old enough. I have been going to dog shows with my aunt since I was a little kid, she has shepherds and Cairn Terriers. I wonder if you've ever judged her dogs and we might have met, her name is Bonnie. Maybe we will get to meet at one of the shows and you will get to judge my puppy when she grows up. That would be cool!

[jackfrost]

jackfrost -- what you fail to see is that it doesn't matter what rules and what standards accompany and have EVER accompanied the German shepherd dog. We aren't talking about the German shepherd dog here. This is the American white shepherd -- so by saying that only coloured dogs should be bred, you are excluding an entire breed, in which ONLY WHITE DOGS are allowed. Max Von Stephanitz was the founder of the German shepherd, not the American White Shepherd -- so what he thought does not matter. Perhaps what he thought was one of the determining factors in the breed split. No one is fighting to breed white German shepherds. They are only fighting to breed American white shepherds. They are recognised by UKC and FCI, and are on their way to AKC recognition. They are a breed, not a curse against a breed it no longer has anything to do with.

Don't get me wrong, I hate to see one breed split into another, such as in the Belgian varieties -- but in this situation I'm all for it. These dogs have a better future as far as health goes.

I haven't failed to see that, my point is that White's were never a part of the GSD, they never were accepted, except here in america(funny how we have to split a breed everytime it comes to america but that's another story). Every white breeder claims it has its root's in the German SHepherd a dog known for its courage, it's nerve, its strength, its adaptability, etc. White's were never a part of that history. SO call it like it is, you have the cast offs of a noble breed used to create a white american shepherd. SO yo usee when you are making claims that white's are the same as gsd's just different colors, the rules created by the founder most defineatly have something to do with this, seeing as they've been selected against in the entire world since their beginning.


My breeding program is not in discussion here. And i will not discuss it with someone who has such a narror view of white shepehrds.

If you're going to claim they work just as well and are the same as a GSD, and I see ZERO working titles with any of your dogs, your darn right it's part of the discussion. Just as with anyone breeding any working dog claiming they can work and have this and have that, and yet have never proven their dogs can do any of it. Really big pet peeve of mine. This isn't about white vs others, its about unsubstantiated claims made by breeders, it would be no different looking at an AKC show line website and seeing all these champions that have never had the courage, or nerve tested by anyone.

[borzoimom]

Jackfrost- just because its not an accepted color in our standard, doesnt mean they dont exist. Even in Belgiums you can get both the Terv color and the Belgium color as well. They divided the dog because of color, and not the first to do so. Also a Norfolk and a Norwich can have either in their litters to as well. My point is- color can seperate any breed, and our acceptance in the AKC doesnt make all breeds. Plenty of dogs similar in color but not accepted here yet. Like the Irish Setter in our country is only red- they can be red and white in other countries. The newly coming red and white setter will be named just that eventhough it is stilll a Irish Setter. Just because we don't honor a breed color, doesnt remove the legitamacy.

[Ceph]

Jackfrost - here is something to think about - as long as someone wants the dog it is not a castoff or useless.

I dont know why you would think a color makes the dog bad....I have heard things about how WGSD's come from a smaller gene pool, but then at the same time if you have two colored parents with the recessive gene you are probably going to get a litter with at least one white puppy in it....simple genetics. I am an equine emphasis major, and I know that the same thing applies to horses...its nature, Is the american cream draft any less of a horse because it is a different color? no, and they are beautiful horses....but I bet you that somewhere along the line they came from a recessive gene. As long as you arent inbreeding and you get some hybrid vigor in you arent going to have any different problems that the colored dogs. And right now I personally think that colored GSDs have alot of problems from irresponsible breeding.

Anyway, I have a shepherd husky mix pup who I love dearly (he's actually my fathers dog at this point.) and we adopted him. I am getting ready to start looking for a WGSD puppy (female) so that next year when I have an apartment I can have her and raise her. (I have heard they are smart as whips with alot of drive, and I love that since I am highly active and a trainer - in - training.) I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for breeders on the east coast....Chapparall in ohio and white timberwolf ranch in florida seemed to be the two most likley as of now...but I would looove input on this.


I dont know if this helps any for showing that these dogs work, but I am pretty sure this is a WGSD (Berger Blanc Suisse) that worked as a herding do during the summers in Switzerland....during the winters he kinda hung around a resteraunt and played with the customers...he was very sweet.
http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/My%20Own%20Personal%20Paradise%20-%20Switzerland/A_Me%20and%20Awsome%20Dog%201.jpg

and here is the swiss website about these dogs (in german but lots of good pics.)

http://www.berger-blanc-suisse.ch/

Thanks all

[jackfrost]

Jackfrost - here is something to think about - as long as someone wants the dog it is not a castoff or useless.

Maybe my comment was a little harsh, I don't think any dog is useless. I do however think there is a huge difference between a working GSD and your average dog.


I dont know why you would think a color makes the dog bad Color doesn't make them bad


but then at the same time if you have two colored parents with the recessive gene you are probably going to get a litter with at least one white puppy in it....simple genetics.

and simple genetics and observation would tell you that after about 30 years of breeding gsd's White's no longer showed up in the litters. This would show that the recessive gene was very rare in the GSD population at that time. Your odds of getting two recessive parents together was very rare, and by responsible breeders studying bloodlines and pedigrees would have a pretty good guess as how to avoid breeding to those dogs because white was not desired. Since that time, you've had a small gene pool being used for at least the past 70 years.


As long as you arent inbreeding and you get some hybrid vigor in you arent going to have any different problems that the colored dogs.
If you're studying genetics you might want to go over hybrid vigor again, this has nothing to do with it. But if you wanted to add some "new" blood, no responsible breeder of GSD's is going to allow their brood bitch or proven stud to breed with a white coat. So chances are you're going to be adding more unproven bloodlines.



There are big problems with the GSD especially in america. Their showlines go back to basically two dogs brought over from Germany, but somehow I"m supposed to believe White's have a large gene pool?? They had to get those white's consistently somehow, How do you think that happened? you're into genetics, think about it.


I dont know if this helps any for showing that these dogs work, but I am pretty sure this is a WGSD (Berger Blanc Suisse) that worked as a herding do during the summers in Switzerland....

I'm sure there are some that can work, but it's not very often. It's a consistency thing, and I still love when white breeder's claim they can do everything a "regular" GSD can do, yet have no cert's or titles to show, other than CGC, TT, TDI, etc, sorry, those are fun to do, but are a far cry from being proven as working stock.

[borzoimom]

Jackfrost- just because its not an accepted color in our standard, doesnt mean they dont exist. Even in Belgiums you can get both the Terv color and the Belgium color as well. They divided the dog because of color, and not the first to do so. Also a Norfolk and a Norwich can have either in their litters to as well. My point is- color can seperate any breed, and our acceptance in the AKC doesnt make all breeds. Plenty of dogs similar in color but not accepted here yet. Like the Irish Setter in our country is only red- they can be red and white in other countries. The newly coming red and white setter will be named just that eventhough it is stilll a Irish Setter. Just because we don't honor a breed color, doesnt remove the legitamacy.
...

[Ceph]

quite frankly I think that any dog can do anything else a dog could do. It drives me insane that people think that one kind of dog is better than others. A rescue dog given the right training and drive and breed type can do just as well as another dog....sometimes they cant, sometimes they can.

As far as the animals not throwing white animals for 30 years, I find that very hard to believe....and if it was the case I am willing to guess they probably didnt breed the animals throwing whites as much, thus further causing the gene to recess.

I will put down one more example from equine science that might have some part to do with this (I use horses because I know them better, and because I think fundamentally here the animals are similiar)

The American Quarter Horse Association allows only animals of solid color to be registered. They cast out the paints and the appy's even though they mat have been structurally sound...they were culled from the breeding herds. They broke off and formed their own associations (American Paint Horse Association and the FAHR). Today even when a paint or appaloosa is thrown from and QH stud and mare (it happens, though rarely), they are still not allowed to register but can register in the APHA. They are basically the same horse with different colors. Paints excell easly as well as Quarter horses, and today, the foundation breed of quarter horses have far more confirmation problems then their colored friends. Paints came from a generally smaller gene pool, but you wont find a smart QH breeder saying that paints couldnt do all the same things as a QH.

My point I suppose is not to be close minded....I love colored and White dogs all the same....I myself am going white because from everything I have read, and the breeders I have talked to (to include colored breeders) well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain.

[borzoimom]

Ceph- the Russians killed borzois for years that were not mostly white. They wanted a dog that would blend in the snow. The US did the most to bring the self colors back from oblivian..

[NicoleLJ]

Jackfrost - My breeding program is just that, Mine. My purpose for breeding is not to produce titled dogs, though that would be great if the owners decided to do that(I will even be giving rebates to those that do title their dogs in certian venues). My soul purpose, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, is to produce dogs that have the best structure, temperment, drive, intelligence and so forth to go on to be service dogs for the disable. That is my one and only purpose. So I could care less whether you have a problem with that or not. Sheena and Ryder are both proven dogs in all aspects for what I hope to produce and that is what matters to me.

Ceph - Thank you for your great posts. They are very incitful and I am learning a lot from them. I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.

Sorry I haven't contributed more but I have had a busy night and day with Sheena flying to meet Ryder to hopefully produce my first litter. Which we are hoping will have 3 service dog candidates in it. So keep your fingers crossed.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Honey- you have your hands full right now. Some people just like to start something and as someone said to me " thrive on discontent.."

[Sophist]

FWIW, my dad does has a lot of say in selecting dogs for area law enforcement and he is searching more actively for Belgians or white shepherds. Apparently, they're becoming known for having better temperaments and lasting longer health-wise than GSDs. A lot of this is no doubt due to issues in "American" GSD lines, but I found it somewhat interesting. Nicole's dogs appear to be healthy and stable and beautiful and will no doubt produce exemplary service dogs. I think that deserves at least as much respesct as excelling in herding.



Don't mean to hijack, but this thread has me wondering--- is the black GSD registerable? Didn't see it specifically faulted in the AKC guidleines like the whites and some of the dilutes... but for some reason I was thinking it wasn't anyway?

[jackfrost]

Honey- you have your hands full right now. Some people just like to start something and as someone said to me " thrive on discontent.."
If anything i have said is untrue, i'll be the first to admit it.


I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.

More drivey and more brains than my working dogs??? OK sweety, I can see i'm hurting you and your friend's feelings and you feel a need to try and get back at me. Anyone with any experience at all with working GSD's knows that is nothing but a bold faced lie. But just to let you have your time in the sun, let's say they are. But I have experience with service dogs for the disabled as well, and you know the funny thing is, they are almost exclusively looking for lower drive dogs. you must be working with an anomoly. and back to your comment again, if they're so intelligent and have so much drive, PROVE IT, don't just say it. I go to lots of trials, and see very very very few whites doing anything, let alone winning. If you indeed have a dog with more drive and more brains than a GSD, than surely it will be at the top of the podium, winning at the PSD service trials winning HGH trials sometime, but I know what this will get, more lip service, as I can tell you that in the past 50 years there has been a handful at best to even compete in these trials let alone do well. and that my dear is a fact.

[NicoleLJ]

FWIW, my dad does has a lot of say in selecting dogs for area law enforcement and he is searching more actively for Belgians or white shepherds. Apparently, they're becoming known for having better temperaments and lasting longer health-wise than GSDs. A lot of this is no doubt due to issues in "American" GSD lines, but I found it somewhat interesting. Nicole's dogs appear to be healthy and stable and beautiful and will no doubt produce exemplary service dogs. I think that deserves at least as much respesct as excelling in herding.



Don't mean to hijack, but this thread has me wondering--- is the black GSD registerable? Didn't see it specifically faulted in the AKC guidleines like the whites and some of the dilutes... but for some reason I was thinking it wasn't anyway?

Thank you so much. If your dad ever wants me to put him in touch with some great WS breeders (some who have produced dogs that have gone on to do police work) please let me know.

As for blacks yes they can be registered, so can whites, and tehy can be shown through AKC and the CKC. But from what breeders have told me a black can have a harder time winning in the ring. I am not saying they can't, it is just harder. They told me it was because the black coat not only highlights the good parts but also the bad. It doesn't have any other colors to break up what the eye sees. Do I make sense?
Nicole

[NicoleLJ]

[QUOTE=jackfrost]winning at the PSD service trials winning HGH trials sometimeQUOTE]

This alone shows me you have no clue what you are talking about. LOL PSD trials. That is so funny. There is no such thing as a Psychiatric Service Dog trial. lol.
Nicole

[Sophist]

Yes, you make sense. Thanks for the info.


JackFrost, don't you think the lack of the white shepherds in these trails could just as easily be due their human counterparts' prejudice against them as it is due to any supposed defects in the dogs?

[jackfrost]

[QUOTE=jackfrost]winning at the PSD service trials winning HGH trials sometimeQUOTE]

This alone shows me you have no clue what you are talking about. LOL PSD trials. That is so funny. There is no such thing as a Psychiatric Service Dog trial. lol.
Nicole
wow, you now so much about working dogs, yet you've never heard of a PSD, Police Service Dog...HMMMMM

[borzoimom]

They dont call them PSD here either... We call them agents. ( worked in customs as a private trainer... ) It is possible she doesnt know. Each area can be different...

[NicoleLJ]

[QUOTE=NicoleLJ]
wow, you now so much about working dogs, yet you've never heard of a PSD, Police Service Dog...HMMMMM

PSD to me(since I am in service dogs) means Psychiatric service dogs) Service dogs for the disable is what I was talking about when it comes to my breeding program. Why would I need or want to get police dog titles on my breeding dogs when I am breeding for service dogs? Agian you make no sense. Oh well. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Nicole

[Ceph]

I dont know too much before, like I said, but I am in the military, and the kinds of service dogs the military are looking for have to be high drive....you need an animal who not only enjoys the searching but also wont give up. I am medical service corps....dogs that have a high drive and are willing to look for people for as long as possible save lives. I am hoping to train my puppy for rescue missions along that line...I think the military could sorely use a search and rescue dog with each ambulance platoon. but again, high drive = very important...

And on a second note....for christ sakes...they're all the same...the same internal workings, the same structure...some dogs will always be more high drive than others...some will be more lazy...you will see that in both WGSD and GSD. One of my Captains worked with and bred german shepherds, and his direct quote was, 'I've worked with everything but a pure black, and its pretty much ding, they're all the same.' so you can breed high drive and temperment into pretty much any animal...alot of that is dependant on the breeder....it just so happens that most of the people I know who I have mentioned the high drive/intelligence....it may just be that they are all doing something right.

Pretty much this comes down to truth and fact, we all have our own truths - what we believe is real, and then there is the fact....what we know is real....our truth is that the WGSD is awsome, yours is that it is not so much....the actual facts....we dont know for sure because there has never been any hard data or testing in a controlled situation. I actually looked for something in the Virginia Tech Journal Database...the entire database...and I could find nothing. Until there is resaearch done like that, they are all the same I guess. (mmm, that might be a good graduate thesis paper though)

[jackfrost]

Oh well. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Exactly, trust me Ifeel your pain. You keep claiming they have more drive and more brains, and I said surely they'll be winning in avenues that test drive and brains, as well as temperment and nerve, but you like to skirt that every time it comes up, so we'll just leave it as that, your dogs have never been proven to work. PSD's has meant police service dog forever. In working circles you say PSD, and that's exactly what it means, my gosh do a simple google search and tell me what you get Psychiatric Service dog or Police service dog???


JackFrost, don't you think the lack of the white shepherds in these trails could just as easily be due their human counterparts' prejudice against them as it is due to any supposed defects in the dogs?

It could, but surely if they were producing such drive and temperment and structure and brains, we'd see them much more often in working circles. When good ones come along, they're notpassed over because they are white. We scoop them up as fast as we can. Fact of the matter is, there aren't very many. Mainly what you see is lots of talk and not much show.


FWIW, my dad does has a lot of say in selecting dogs for area law enforcement and he is searching more actively for Belgians or white shepherds.

You could PM me as well, I may know him, but I can't say we get any requests for whites, Belgians yeah because they're cheaper, but not whites. I'd like to know what LEO's are looking for that? Besides the fact that they like the color white.

[Ceph]

I've always heard them called K-9s (pronounced kay nines)...the units and the dogs themselves. Its probabaly different depending on where you live.

and I think the reason you dont see much more of them because it is a recessive gene and there just arent that many compared to their colored brothers.

[borzoimom]

I've always heard them called K-9s (pronounced kay nines)...the units and the dogs themselves. Its probabaly different depending on where you live.

and I think the reason you dont see much more of them because it is a recessive gene and there just arent that many compared to their colored brothers.
yes- you are right! It is a recessive gene..

[jackfrost]

I've always heard them called K-9s (pronounced kay nines)...the units and the dogs themselves. Its probabaly different depending on where you live.

and I think the reason you dont see much more of them because it is a recessive gene and there just arent that many compared to their colored brothers.
now just think about that, it IS a recessive and a recessive that was selected AGAINST till almost no whites where showing up in normal litters. So to create whites consitently, which is what white breeders do, do you think they took your average working GSD and got some whites by accident and sell them that way, or do you think they took the ever shrinking pool of GSD's with white genes left and did lots of breeding back on themselves to consistently get white??

[borzoimom]

actually I got a white out of a sable and black and tan breeding..

[NicoleLJ]

actually I got a white out of a sable and black and tan breeding..

Which is quite common.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

yea it shocked me thats for sure... lol..

[Ceph]

again, back to horses.....but I have seen friesians (pure black dominant gene) mated to other Black horses throw palamino babies (golden body, cream hair)....hec, I even saw a chesnut friesian, which is said to be impossible genetically....dont ever discount mother nature...she always has the neatest tricks up her sleeve. In horses chesnuts are the most recessive of the colors...but all I ever see in my program here are chesnuts. neither of our stallions are chesnuts....not too many of our mares are chesnuts...they must be coming from somewhere....

and its very possible the same happened with WGSDs...not saying it did....its just possible....you can typically figure out the parents genetics by the time they've had their second get....so it wouldn't be too hard to breed colored dogs to whelp whites even if it was just two or three a litter...not hard at all. Thus your genetic base starts to expand as far as the whites go.

[borzoimom]

My borzoi breeder had Black pearl too.. same thing...

[wolfsoul]

and simple genetics and observation would tell you that after about 30 years of breeding gsd's White's no longer showed up in the litters.
Whites may not have showed up, but that was only by certain luck -- a white carrier will breed a carrier who will breed a carrier and then another carrier to breed another carrier, and so on. So there have always been carriers.

Same reason I don't know if Visa carries tervuren. It's unlikely, but still possible. Won't know until I breed her to a terv, or a terv carrier (Solo's daddy is a terv carrier -- wouldn't have have been just awful is he was the only one AND a terv! I so badly wanted a groen lol).

[borzoimom]

I got two tervs out of my belguim.. took me forever to get them right..

[Sophist]

You could PM me as well, I may know him, but I can't say we get any requests for whites, Belgians yeah because they're cheaper, but not whites. I'd like to know what LEO's are looking for that? Besides the fact that they like the color white.

Actually, my dad does not prefer the color white. When he is taking color into consideration, he tends to prefer darker dogs as K-9 units, since they tend to intimidate suspects more and since people can't pick them out as easily if they're trying to go in during darkness and all... but he really looks more for temperament, soundness of body, etc. when selecting dogs, and for that he has more confidence in Belgian Malinois, Belgian Tervurens, and White shepherds. As far as being cheaper, are you sure??? Looking for breeders and ads in my area right now, the Belgians seem a nice chunk of change more expensive.

My father has mainly selected dogs for several Sheriff's offices (which also work in the local academy), search and rescue, the county jail, a couple special "school k-9 units" that work the public schools only, and Methamphetamine Enforcement Teams.

[Sophist]

Oh, forgot to add...

I very, very, very rarely give out my surname online, so I don't think I'll be PM'ing you my dads name to see if you know him. How about you just send me the names of all the cops you know in Cali and I'll tell you if you know him ;) :D .

[jackfrost]

but he really looks more for temperament, soundness of body, etc. when selecting dogs, and for that he has more confidence in Belgian Malinois, Belgian Tervurens, and White shepherds. As far as being cheaper, are you sure??? Looking for breeders and ads in my area right now, the Belgians seem a nice chunk of change more expensive.


Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price. I think its safe to say you've never imported, never bought, never trained any of these dogs. When you do then get back to me. If his GSD's are that bad, he needs to find some new suppliers. It's a rare rare day when a white passes the testing to become a PSD, and its even more rare for Mal's and such to be more expensive than a good GSD. SOunds like he needs to find some new people to work with.

Its obvious i'm stepping on your friend's toes, so if you don't want to believe what i'm saying, go to some real working sites and ask them. Come back and tell me what they say, or just keep it to yourself, it doens't really matter.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/

http://www.uspcak9.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

[NicoleLJ]

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price. I think its safe to say you've never imported, never bought, never trained any of these dogs. When you do then get back to me. If his GSD's are that bad, he needs to find some new suppliers. It's a rare rare day when a white passes the testing to become a PSD, and its even more rare for Mal's and such to be more expensive than a good GSD. SOunds like he needs to find some new people to work with.

Its obvious i'm stepping on your friend's toes, so if you don't want to believe what i'm saying, go to some real working sites and ask them. Come back and tell me what they say, or just keep it to yourself, it doens't really matter.
http://www.workingdogforum.com/

http://www.uspcak9.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

One thing I have realized when I am on boards like this is that when people resort to insulting others(as you have done form your very first sentence in this post) to try to get their point across that it shows the true character of the person and puts everything they say into suspect. This was a nice thread till you joined it and right away started being rude, insulting and condesnding to everyone on it.

Everyone is entilted ot their own opinion, even you. And no one has the right to tell someone else they have no experience in something when they do not personally know the person. And just because you have not seen a white personally excel in police K-9 units does not mean it does not happen. And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts. I have not personally seen a thousand dollar bill but I know it exhists. If you can not open your mind to other peoples views and experiences that is fine. But do not resport to insulting them and do not resort to telling tehm what they have and have not experienced when you do not know them.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

One thing I have realized when I am on boards like this is that when people resort to insulting others(as you have done form your very first sentence in this post) to try to get their point across that it shows the true character of the person and puts everything they say into suspect. This was a nice thread till you joined it and right away started being rude, insulting and condesnding to everyone on it.

Everyone is entilted ot their own opinion, even you. And no one has the right to tell someone else they have no experience in something when they do not personally know the person. And just because you have not seen a white personally excel in police K-9 units does not mean it does not happen. And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts. I have not personally seen a thousand dollar bill but I know it exhists. If you can not open your mind to other peoples views and experiences that is fine. But do not resport to insulting them and do not resort to telling tehm what they have and have not experienced when you do not know them.
Nicole

Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.

I have seen some whites do some good work, just the majority of them do not pass. Its not the situation I created, its just how it is. When someone is telling me a LEO is searching for white's cause they do better work??? I wonder just where that person is coming from. Its far easier to find a GSD or mal than any of the others, and mal's are much cheaper. Nobody wants to believe me, so I sent you some links where other people that import, train, and breed working dogs, see what they have to say on that issue, then come back and tell me I'm lying.

Nothing I have said has been untrue, yet all I get are excuses from an obvious group of friends. Have you been thru the old stud books. I have a friend on another board who's great grandfather started saving all the SV record books, he has a whole lot of old stuff. He has hand written breeding notes from quite a few of the major players in the development of this breed. You can see how they bred out the white recessives and just how often they knew which could be carriers and which lines to avoid to not get white's. Even today i know breeders here and in Germany that adhere to the working gsd standard, that have had thousands of litters between them over the years, and white never shows up. These are the dogs that are putting dogs on the street or winning the HGH every year. Dogs that embody the what was and is the GSD.

I've done far more than read a few breeder websites to form my "opinion".

I've put out more than just a few things. Everyone keeps saying the white's have always been a part of the GSD, it has not.

You keep saying that the gene pool is large, it is not.

YOu keep saying they have more brains and drive, yet can only show me two websites with the same dogs on them over the past 20 or 30 years and only a handful of dogs are there. Why, because that's all that have accomplished much. I've been there and see what happens.

You keep saying they have better working temperments yet they aren't overwhelming any working venue, or even represented very often?? Most people with working dogs could care less what color they are, they go to what dogs can work. You keep saying they have more drive, yet you raise Psychiatric Service Dogs? Where does high drive come in to play with that? Are you telling me that those services look for dogs with a good balance of high prey and high defense drive?? Funny cause every service dog outfit i've ever placed dogs in were all looking for lower drive dogs, EVERY ONE. When I see lip service being paid to something the finest breed in the world does, i get offended.

You want to call me rude and insulting, Pot meet kettle, is all i have to say.

[borzoimom]

Jackfrost- no pun intended but you are getting a 'little chilly'. The white puppy I got came out of a male german lined dog... No kidding! He was a sable and mom was a black and tan. No indicators of a white carry- and sable is more dominant in germany soooooooooooo how that carried, - it was strange.
Also- my first belgium, while and import, came out of a litter that had the Terv coloring showed up. Again- no reference where.
Nicole- I know you are nervous now with your baby away from home. She will be fine-

[wolfsoul]

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price.
I strongly disagree -- buying a started working dog is very expensive. Take a look at European dogs. You can spend upwards of $3-5000 on a started french ring/schutzhund trained animal.

[Ceph]

Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.


I have only ever seen belgians more expensive...not hard when you can get a shepherd for free from some backyard breeder though...



Nothing I have said has been untrue, yet all I get are excuses from an obvious group of friends. Have you been thru the old stud books. I have a friend on another board who's great grandfather started saving all the SV record books, he has a whole lot of old stuff. He has hand written breeding notes from quite a few of the major players in the development of this breed. You can see how they bred out the white recessives and just how often they knew which could be carriers and which lines to avoid to not get white's. Even today i know breeders here and in Germany that adhere to the working gsd standard, that have had thousands of litters between them over the years, and white never shows up. These are the dogs that are putting dogs on the street or winning the HGH every year. Dogs that embody the what was and is the GSD.


Jackfrost, I want hard data supporting what you have said...Tests with actual controls. Seeing as I couldnt find anything in one of the largest univerities in the countries libraries...I find it very hard to believe that you will....What you believe is what you believe, its not fact.



I've put out more than just a few things. Everyone keeps saying the white's have always been a part of the GSD, it has not.


We put some stuff out too. It didnt seem to change your mind some.



You want to call me rude and insulting, Pot meet kettle, is all i have to say.

Jack - you came onto a thread that was positive and started an argument and put down and insulted several people. The way my daddy raised me that was called insulting. I will cede that you have your own opinion, and that it may possibly be true...but dont try to force it on us. You arent going to change our minds by insulting us, just as we wont change yours by arguing....why dont we just leave it at that.

If it makes a difference, the Virginia Maryland Regional College of Veterinary Medicine (a top Veterinary College) is right near by. I can walk down there and ask some geneticists and Veterinarians about that. Would any of that help, or even change your mind? Thats true hard data.

and on a side note....does anyone else think this whole thing is kind of funny? You know what it resembles to me? An argument between a leftwing lunatic liberal and a hardcore conservative republican.

(you;re wrong....no you're wrong....no you're wrong!!!, we're better because of this, no we're better) lol, I am not trying to insult anyone because I know I have partook and am just as guilty....I just thought I'd make a comment about that.

[jackfrost]

I strongly disagree -- buying a started working dog is very expensive. Take a look at European dogs. You can spend upwards of $3-5000 on a started french ring/schutzhund trained animal.
and we just imported a schIII female with fertility issues that tied for 1st in points in last years german BSP for 25 grand, what's your point??? That's FIVE TIMES the cost. your normal imports that a lot of law enforcement uses get younger green dogs mals go for 800 up to just over a grand, a GSD of comperable age and ability will be 2000 up to 6-7grand. Strongly disagree all you want, but those are the going rates plus or minus a few hundred bucks. There is no Comparison.

[NicoleLJ]

and on a side note....does anyone else think this whole thing is kind of funny? You know what it resembles to me? An argument between a leftwing lunatic liberal and a hardcore conservative republican.

(you;re wrong....no you're wrong....no you're wrong!!!, we're better because of this, no we're better) lol, I am not trying to insult anyone because I know I have partook and am just as guilty....I just thought I'd make a comment about that.

LOL Yup. You got us there. That is why I keep trying to say that everyone is entitled to their opinions. But they are not entiled to be demeaning and insulting just because someone elses opinion and knowledge is different then their own.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Jackfrost- no pun intended but you are getting a 'little chilly'. The white puppy I got came out of a male german lined dog... No kidding! He was a sable and mom was a black and tan. No indicators of a white carry- and sable is more dominant in germany soooooooooooo how that carried, - it was strange.
Also- my first belgium, while and import, came out of a litter that had the Terv coloring showed up. Again- no reference where.
Nicole- I know you are nervous now with your baby away from home. She will be fine-
I have no doubt that it happens. I have no doubt that some are really fine animals. I do have a problem with saying that because the great grandsire of horand was white they are somehow a "super" dog and they have more brains and drive and can do everything as good or better than GSD's. If you're comparing your average american line GSD maybe, if you're comparing a GSD with lineage of working dogs, they aren't even close to the same dog.


I want hard data supporting what you have said...Tests with actual controls. Seeing as I couldnt find anything in one of the largest univerities in the countries libraries...I find it very hard to believe that you will....What you believe is what you believe, its not fact.

I guess it doesn't matter if you believe me or not, but seeing the actual sz# registration books some from the early 1900's thru the 20's and 30's up thru the present, plus actual hand written notes from about 100 years ago, was enough for me.

[Ceph]

I guess it doesn't matter if you believe me or not, but seeing the actual sz# registration books some from the early 1900's thru the 20's and 30's up thru the present, plus actual hand written notes from about 100 years ago, was enough for me.

no, that doesnt do anything for me because really....its not actual genetic data....I am an Animal Science major....and though that focuses mostly on larger animals I have been through the genetics of companion animals...and it has taught me that outward data really means nothing...its the DNA that's important....the genes. I need that genetic proof...cause honestly those are the only actual facts here. And if the gentics match...well, then yeah, they are the same dog...just a different color like any sable or pure black. But then again, thats just me and the way my teachers have taught me.

[borzoimom]

good point ceph. All the can determine now is a whippet is a whippet but not the color right? I know in my breed, with records sealed or distroyed in the Russian fall of the Tsars. Its almost impossible to know what colors were the earlier dogs- just even 75 years back unless you have pictures.

[jackfrost]

no, that doesnt do anything for me because really....its not actual genetic data....I am an Animal Science major....and though that focuses mostly on larger animals I have been through the genetics of companion animals...and it has taught me that outward data really means nothing...its the DNA that's important....the genes. I need that genetic proof...cause honestly those are the only actual facts here. And if the gentics match...well, then yeah, they are the same dog...just a different color like any sable or pure black. But then again, thats just me and the way my teachers have taught me.
Did you get your stuff on hybird vigor figured out then?? Outward data means a lot. Looking at the very narrow scope of just genes will leave out the big picture. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. WHite breeder's breeding whites to get them consistently breed to a dog that has been selected against. So much so that their temperment, their working ability is nowhere close to producing those working dogs on a consitent level. From just a gene standpoint you're correct, but from a whole dog standpoint, you couldn't be further from the truth.

[borzoimom]

Jackfrost- working ability has NOTHING to do with color any more than tail placement- its a inheired drive to work. I could spot it at a veryyy early age in my shepherds. Some had it, some didnt- independant of color.

[Ceph]

Did you get your stuff on hybird vigor figured out then?? Outward data means a lot. Looking at the very narrow scope of just genes will leave out the big picture. Somebody tell me I'm wrong. WHite breeder's breeding whites to get them consistently breed to a dog that has been selected against. So much so that their temperment, their working ability is nowhere close to producing those working dogs on a consitent level. From just a gene standpoint you're correct, but from a whole dog standpoint, you couldn't be further from the truth.

I will admit I made a mistake, I forgot slightly what the word meant...I meant breeding outside the lines...not breeding cousin to cousin...when I said it...I neglected to remember that it is more of a crossbreeding term.

Here is one more statement though....if you hadnt been so insulting I might have actually listened to some of the things you said, I am the first to admit that I dont know that much about dogs, I know more about farm animals...when Virginia Tech Breeds horses they look at the genetics of the animals, the breed relations and what they can produce...they do use outward data, but then again...a chesnut thoroghbred wont preform any differently than a black one...and the chesnuts are a whole lot more rare.

another statement would be that people who are so quick to insult and judge are perhaps not as sure of themselves as they like everyone to think. Not saying this is you....just saying.

Also if genetically I am right then doesnt it stand to reason that what you said about the whites not coming from colors being untrue? If they are the same genetically, then they clearly come from the same basic lines. I bet in Switzerland, where the Berger Blanc Suisse is just as common as the GSD, that they preform just as well. And please dont say anything to me about them not being that common...I have been there, I have seen it for myself...my family has property in Valaisanne, and I see a ton of these dogs on the mountains.

[borzoimom]

I agree Ceph.

[jackfrost]

they do use outward data, but then again...a chesnut thoroghbred wont preform any differently than a black one...and the chesnuts are a whole lot more rare and if white shepherds just popped up in gsd's bred for health temperment and working ability than i'm sure on a whole, there wouldn't be any difference in how they performed. BUT in the case of White's that isn't the case.

Its the same as people that just breed for only the black saddle look with red color that have a "flying" trot. Not much comes out in the way of working abilities of those dogs on a consistent level. Sure some can, but they are the exception, not the rule. When you breed for one color, one trait period, you lose the rest of the dog. Those aren't rules I made up, it just happens.


another statement would be that people who are so quick to insult and judge are perhaps not as sure of themselves as they like everyone to think. Not saying this is you....just saying

I'm more of the opposite, If I'm not sure of what i'm saying I don't say much, but if I do, I"m quite animate about it, especially when people disagree. and yet i've still found a way to stick my foot in my mouth more than once.


If they are the same genetically, then they clearly come from the same basic lines.

That would be true, but there is a big BUT here, i don't think its too far of a stretch for me to say or for others to see, that if I go to a kennel that has consistently tested their stock, and study bloodlines and produce good working dogs on a consistent basis, and I got to a kennel that neither tests, nor studies, just breeds to GSD's cause they're registered with the AKC, i'm going to find a vast difference in the dogs?? I thought I knew what GSD's were for 20 years till I got exposed to working line GSD's, its night and day difference.


I bet in Switzerland, where the Berger Blanc Suisse is just as common as the GSD, that they preform just as well. And please dont say anything to me about them not being that common...I have been there, I have seen it for myself...my family has property in Valaisanne, and I see a ton of these dogs on the mountains.

They may be I've never been there, I can only go by what I've seen here, and what others that I work with have seen. Breeding dogs in America is sadly very outclassed (generally speaking) by our European counter parts. Because they do test and prove their stock before breeding, unlike here, anything with AKC papers can be bred. Technically and genetically Identical, but so far apart on the field proving themselves.


Jackfrost- working ability has NOTHING to do with color any more than tail placement- its a inheired drive to work. I could spot it at a veryyy early age in my shepherds. Some had it, some didnt- independant of color.

when you look at it just from a color stand point you're correct. When you look at the history, it becomes a lot more clear. I'll try and put it as concise as I can. Whites have been selected against since the beginning. Maybe not here in america, but we have done nothing good for the GSD I'm not even going to get into that.

Whether or not I have hard facts, its not too hard to imagine that the gene for white was in a relatively small population of GSD's as they were not showing up very often at all in litters. With the amount of line breeding and such going on, I think there would have been more. When they did show up, they were not bred and not sold as breeding stock by good breeders.

Breeders breeding whites, didn't take two proven working animals to try and get whites, they took whites and bred them to whites to get them consistently. If they wanted new blood they weren't getting proven dogs from the best working stock, those breeders weren't letting their dogs breed to them. It just didn't happen to any appreciable level. So the quality of dog used to make Whites did have an impact on their working ability. I can see it when we do what we do.

But somehow I always hear about these dogs with more drive, more brains, more loyal, better structure, better health, etc, with all those things working against them. It doesn't add up to me on paper, and in working situations, well it just verifies it.

Sorry I take such offense to that, like I said I don't much appreciate lip service being paid to the reputation that GSD's have built for themselves. To me its not much different than wolf hybrid breeders saying that way back when there was an infusion of wolf blood to gsd's so their dogs are "super" dogs as well. The SV and Max were very clear on this, they hated that practice, they despised it, they threw people out that did it. They knew there was nothing to be added to the GSD by adding wolf blood except for animals that were very shy of people, had no biddabilty towards people, and didn't like captivity. Yet I can google or you can, and see what these breeders are saying about how their dogs are the this and that because Max himself used wolf blood to create the gsd. I think if you read his book, you'll come away with a different conclusion than they're claiming, but if you haven't you might be inclined to believe they hype.

[Ceph]

throwing peoples words and mistakes back in their faces is insulting, and you have done it multiple times.

come off it.... Let the white german shepherd people here have our thread, and if you feel the need to start a thread about why you think GSDs are awsome then go ahead and do it....but let us have our own beliefs. We didn't bash on GSDs, we just happen to think ours are better (I think my husky shepherd pup could beat any dog any day in temperment and in looks...but thats because he is mine and he is wonderful)...you prolly feel the same about your dogs. Dont be so intolerant that you wouldnt allow someone to think their dogs are better. What do you do when some little girl walks up with her poodle and says she has the bestest, smartest, most wonderful animal in the world? Belittle her and make her cry? Thats what you have done here...allow people their own opinion.

Give people credit in researching....if people are trying to find animal, most intelligent people will know the difference between a breed owner talking fondly about their breed and the truth.

Leave us in peace and go bug someone else. We'll let you have your opinion, let us have ours.

oh, and as far as reading in that time-period goes, I tend not to....people are that time period where very close minded...hec, women werent allowed in the military, now they are participating in black ops all over the world...wonderful what new ideas can do.

But I will look up his work anyway and see if anything he has to say changes my mind...because I think it is important to look at things from all sides. And if nothing else, I enjoy reading.

[Sophist]

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price. I think its safe to say you've never imported, never bought, never trained any of these dogs. When you do then get back to me. If his GSD's are that bad, he needs to find some new suppliers. It's a rare rare day when a white passes the testing to become a PSD, and its even more rare for Mal's and such to be more expensive than a good GSD. SOunds like he needs to find some new people to work with.

Its obvious i'm stepping on your friend's toes, so if you don't want to believe what i'm saying, go to some real working sites and ask them. Come back and tell me what they say, or just keep it to yourself, it doens't really matter.




At what point did I say that I myself bought/imported and trained police and drug enforcement dogs? I never did. So please attack me on points I actually make, and don't make up new ones just because they are easier.
My dad doesn't have regular 'suppliers' for German Shepherds (what an ugly word to refer to breeding and starting out puppies). You are changing your dspecifics from post to post (GSD became 'good' GSD, with no definition provided) just to provide yourself a back door to escape out of, and to make it easier to twist words. My father has imported exactly once, and once the GSD was well into training they discovered that it would NOT call off. Hardly conclusive evidence against imported GSD, but it spooked the Sheriff enough that, as I believe I made pretty clear, my dad was stuck trying to find dogs in America, or more specifically the United States. And we have, for the most part, not been good to our GSDs at all.

As for my 'friends toes', I'm not sure who you are referring to? My father, or someone on this board? On second thought, never mind... I won't defend against an attack so out of left field.

[Sophist]

Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.



Again, I never in any way asserted or implied that I myself imported, trained, bought or sold k-9 units, so try not to pat yourself on the back too much for that little bit of deductive reasoning.

And please keep in mind that I did readily admit that my price info came from online ads, breeders pages, and newspapers. As I said before, I have never claimed to be in the habit of buying and selling these dogs, so it isn't like I've been making industry connections for years and compiling folders on dogs available from overseas just because I have that time on my hands. The money doesn't come out of my pocket, so I don't know the exact amounts. But, from the evidence I could find, B. Mals and B. Tervurens were more expensive than American GSDs, which I tried to make it clear from the beginning was what I was comparing to. That is why I expressed surprise over your price assertion and asked for more info.
I never tried to come across as a K-9 unit expert, in fact I made it quite clear that it was my father who does that work (and happened to discuss white shepherds with me, so when I saw a white shepherd thread I thought I had an amusing tidbit to add) and the extent of my experience in purchasing/owning/training GSDs was a mix from the pound who I have owned for about one week. So, once again, please don't try to overstate my claims, even if it does make it easier and more enjoyable to attack me.

[borzoimom]

Femka was brought here from the Netherlands for 5 grand. ( spayed female), One of my male shepherds from Germany was 3 grand and it took a month quarrentine, and he never really recovered from it.. I paid 2 grand for my first and second belgium but only 1200 for a female shepherd from New Skeet... Price is set by the seller and the willingness to pay from the buyer. Borzois are reallllly expensive.

[wolfsoul]

I'm still very confused as to why the American white shepherd needs to be compared to the German shepherd. The American white shepherd does not need to prove itself in schutzhund -- that is not it's purpose. From what I understand, the general purpose of the breed is as a service dog, which requires a much calmer and less driven dog -- not a dog that would excell at French ring. You might as well compare it to any other breed.

I disagree that breeding for one colour causes so many issues. There was never a limited gene pool -- between the 1940's and 60's, 90% of GSDs carried the recessive white gene. It's like saying that my dogs are going to be unhealthy and unable to work because I'm breeding specifically for black dogs. There are ALOT more coloured dogs out there, yet I'm breeding for black. No issues here!

[Ceph]

mmm, so now that this has all seemed to calm down some, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for breeders? I am from MD, and somewhere within about 10 hours of here would be good...I am looking mostly for intelligence, high drive and a good, sweet temperment (and a female). An ideas?

[borzoimom]

mmm, so now that this has all seemed to calm down some, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for breeders? I am from MD, and somewhere within about 10 hours of here would be good...I am looking mostly for intelligence, high drive and a good, sweet temperment (and a female). An ideas?
Maryland??? Yes I am about up to 2 hours from you. Pm me what you are looking for, and I will reply for you.

[NicoleLJ]

mmm, so now that this has all seemed to calm down some, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for breeders? I am from MD, and somewhere within about 10 hours of here would be good...I am looking mostly for intelligence, high drive and a good, sweet temperment (and a female). An ideas?

I sent you a pm. I know more breeders then I can count. Hopefully we can find one close to you that will be having a litter.
Nicole

[Ceph]

I have a slight question that I am not sure anyone can answer, but I thought I would ask anyway, just for the hec of it.


I have been reading the swiss website on the Berger Blanc Suisse and looking at alot of their dogs (they're very swiss about it....these dogs are the most strictly maintained dogs on the face of the planet....everything is tested scientifically...its wild...neat though).

I have sort of started to notice that the white shepherds bred in america tend to have the lower hindquarters of a German Shepherd, but the Swiss dogs tend to be higher in the hind quarters? does anyone know the reasons for this? They're of similiar background....but the confirmational difference seems odd to me....I was wondering if it was something that was bred in or trained in....I dont really know. Thanks!

[NicoleLJ]

It all comes down to teh breeding. WS breeders are trying to breed for mroe of the old style with little to no angulation in the back. When Sheena stands naturally she has a very straight back. But when I stack her, depending on how far I move the leg back, her back comes down into the angulation. So it is not only breeding but also how they could be stacked or standing. Even stacked Sheena does not have the sever angulation of the GSD. Your best bet to understand the structure of WS and Berger's is to read their standards for structure.

I hope this answers your question.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

I was wondering the same thing- its the stack she is seeing in the pictures. We stack different... I can make a Borzoi look more short backed, by holding up the head which rocks the rise back more flat than how they are shown. As long as the rise starts past the last rib at the top of the back, they are not wheel backed. Its where it starts- not how high the rise is ...

[wolfsoul]

I can make a Borzoi look more short backed, by holding up the head which rocks the rise back more flat than how they are shown. ..
Wish I could do that...Visa is a little long in the body, would be nice to somehow make her appear more square. But the only time she looks square is when she doesn't have any coat 9no huge pants and mane to lengthen her), in which case she looks bald which is even worse lol.

[borzoimom]

Well they do allow more length in the bitches in your breed as you know, -and its still putting your hands on the dog. Also in our breed, the length doesnt really matter... lol.. Given the choice between a little longer back bitch and another with a sloppy front, I would put up the one a little longer in the back with the clear front and rear.

[SemaviLady]

The falsehoods about the White Shepherds and the gene that causes their coat color are many. First White Shepherds are NOT albinos. Albinos have no pigment and usually pink eyes. The White Shepherds have brown eyes and black pigment on their noses, mouth, paw pads, eye rims,sometimes a black dusting in their ears and sometimes have darker skin and nails.

Color paling was another rumor that has since been proven false. The white gene is a masking gene, not a dilute gene (such as liver and blue). A masking gene hides the real color and pattern of the dog. A White Shepherd can be any color found in the German Shepherd Dog like black, black and tan, black and red, black and silver, black and cream, blue, liver, sable, saddled and bi-colored. The only time dilution could occur is when a White Shepherd is masking a diluted color like blue or liver. The white gene is a recessive gene. The only thing the gene expresses is coat color. It does not cause poor health, temperament or any other.
I wanted to point out that as of this date, there has not been a 'White' gene associated with dogs. It has been found in other species of animals, but not in dogs.

In all mammalian coat color genetics, there are only two types of pigment. One is Eumelanin (which codes for "true" black or near black) and phaeomelanin (which codes for biscuit, to red, an brown/tan colors). True "white" is the absence of pigment granules in the hair.

In dogs, "white" color in several sable/agouti breeds (in the A series) is caused, in part, by a recessive form of the extension gene (E series). Only dogs carrying at least one dominant allele for E can have black in their coat. So the double e (e/e) derails the formation of black pigment (eumelanin) in the hair at the melanocortin-1-receptor. This affects the formation of black pigment in the *hair* only -- e/e dogs will always have pale colored whiskers, they cannot have black hair at all.

Colloquially, the e/e combination is sometimes called "recessive red", this is because a fully pigmented dog can only have two types of pigment, black or red. That colloquial name can confuse the matter because the gene involved with e/e regards black pigment. So if the dog is not black, it can only be red if it is fully pigmented.

So what if you or an animal you have is e/e? Having lighter color recessives which permit expression for blonde or red hair, just means you do not have the genetics to form the blackest form of pigment in your hair strands. Has nothing to do with albinism or your dog being genetically disfigured.

Albinism: True albinism alleles are associated with the "C" series (on Tyrosinase gene), which controls Color ("to be or not to be"). The C series as it affects phaeomelinin (and eumelanin to some degree) in other animals, has not been shown to exist as originally expected in dogs. For example the 'chinchilla' allele c^ch which Dr Clarence Little had theorized. Tyrosinase (the gene controlling expression of these traits) may or may not still be implicated but it just hasn't been resolved in dogs to date. GSDs and other white sable breeds would be capital "C" in this series because they ARE fully pigmented dogs. They just have a protein that merely affects the pigment granules in their hair.

Another gene associated with white, is the Merle gene - and this one IS directly implicated in birth defects. This gene is not found in purebred GSDs (nor ASDs).

Pinto alleles do not concern purebred GSD so we won't get into that here. :) Although an interesting mutation has occured in the GSD - "Panda Shepherds" which have been DNA'd and are truly a mutation.

To date, it is not known what turns off the phaeomelinin (biscuit, red to brown) in e/e breeds that are "white" instead of red. But e/e has certainly been implicated as part of the factors that produce "white" sable breeds.

Typical e/e breeds are Golden Retrievers and yellow Labradors. You never see solid red (or yellow) GSDs or Anatolians - if they are reddish, they will also have black hair and that means that they are not "recessive red" (also called 'clear red'). This is because another unidentified gene also at least partially derails the complete formation of the second pigment, phaeomelanin. Sometimes these "white" breeds, like the e/e breeds will have a little more biscuit color to the edges of their ears. Phaeomelanin is temperature sensitive and cooler areas of the body will sometimes appear darker.

Scientists involved with the genome studies regularly report their new findings. Sometimes it is a little bit hard to follow if one doesn't have the background or sheer determination<g>.

A very useful site to read about pigment studies in dogs is here: http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

Having said all that, people create breed standards based on an 'artist's conception' of conformation to manmade ideals of perfection.

My thoughts on this is that since the agouti/sable colored breeds as I know them, have banded hairs. See pic:
http://www.cobankopegi.com/b/Nov01-2006_10.jpg
When the dog gets a double dose of e/e, it affects the production of the banded pattern - because both eumelanin and phaeomelanin alternate in agouti hairs normally. Since the black pigment doesn't ever turn on, it somehow results in hijacking of the production of the pigmented coat pattern, thus giving us the "white" (or cream white) colored hair. This is just my own conjecture, because in these sable breeds, if there is an additional allele that is involved, that only turns off red or dilutes red, that would mean that this stray gene would sometimes occur in it's recessive or dominant state separate from the state of the allele in the E series. That might mean we could see white GSDs with black masks if this separate gene worked in a typical autosomal diploid manner. Since this doesn't happen, I think that something in the banding pattern of the A series gets hijacked when the E series is in a recessive state.

The hair snapshot above is from an Anatolian female (the center dog in my sig). This female has "white" ancestors in her pedigree as do many Turkish dogs.

[NicoleLJ]

SemaviLady - I am totally lost as by what you posted. The white Gene in GSD's is a masking gene not an albino gene. Which means that the White GSD can be any color that is in the GSD but that it is masking that color. So Sheena(my white) could be a bl&tn or a rd&tn or a full black but the white gene is masking her color so she is white. If she was bred to a colored GSD we would have no idea what colors she would throw in the pups because we don't know what color she is masking.

We do know when a wh is bred to a wh then they only throw white pups
when a white is bred to a colored that has the wh gene then they throw white and colored pups
when a white is bred to a colored without the white gene then they throw all colored pups. So the gene has to be in both the parents for the masking affect to take place.

And yes white coated dogs can have black or other colored fur come out int eh coat. In 3 years Sheena has had about 20 hairs that have been black appear on her neck and shoulders. Always one at a time but they do show up. And yes they are attached so I know they are not from our black Luca.

Agian I read what you posted but didn't understand half of what you wrote. I just posted what I know and what has been studied. if you want to learn more about the genetics of hte WS I suggest you go here: The White Shepherds Genetics Project. http://www.wsgenetics.org/

I am a contributing member to this project and the things they are learning and doing to better the WS is amazing.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

I didnt understand how this applied either. I had a sable shepherd bred to a black and tan that produced a white- how??? Who knows.. There must have a white factor in the lines.. A white shepherd has none of the characterists of another white dog- they have dark pigment on the mouth, nose, and eyes and paws.. its not the same thing..

[mike001]

I have been reading all the posts here and I still don't understand . What is a PSD if not a police dog? And why is someone breeding white sheperds since they have so many health problems and temperament problems? How come breeding them is accepted? Excuse all the questions, but being new here I am a little confused with all the posts.

[Ceph]

Its because they dont really have all those problems that the urban myths say they do, which would sort of be the clear answer. You'll find people that love them, like many of the people on this thread, and then you will find people that believe they are inferior....if you read all the way back from the beginning you will see the of the arguments for that....they're pretty much all there (the for and against arguments)

I have been doing some reading up on the Berger Blanc Suisse website, and I am amazed what they do with those dogs...they are probably some of the most genetically maintained and sound dogs on the face of the planet....(not that I would expect anything less of the swiss...everythign they do has to be just right.)

If you want information on that, google berger blanc suisse and then click on the translated version of the swiss berger blanc suisse website....it should be something along the lines of www.bergerblancsuisse.ch

[mike001]

I did google that site those dogs are mostly in Europe from what I read. I thought they weren't accepted in America? I phoned a friend who breeds german shepherds and she was saying that a lot of the studs were infertile and the females had trouble going into whelp because of their genetics??? I guess I'm going to have to do more research,most of the posts I've read have differing opinions and I would be interested in finding out more. I help my friend a lot at dog shows, but have never seen a white shepherd there. I did look at the picture from the first poster but that dog doesn't really look like the shepherds I'm used to seeing at the shows. The one thing I did notice is that the back was way too long compared to other german shepherds. The whole structure was different, like the tail is set too high or something, and the face doesn't have the same expression. I'm not a judge though, just going from what I see at shows, mostly obedience competitions.

[SemaviLady]

SemaviLady - I am totally lost as by what you posted. The white Gene in GSD's is a masking gene not an albino gene.
The information on the link at the GSD site is a bit outdated. It is theoretical with regard to a proposed 'cd' gene. It has not proven to exist thus far and so far, it appears that it will not be.

I am talking about scientific studies on *molecular genetics*. Molecular genetics supercedes theoretical classical genetics. The latter provides behavioral details for how the genes interact to create different coat colors. We learn how breeding one color to another may mask or otherwise affect or not, another color. Molecular genetics gives the GPS (if you will) of the location of the alleles involved.

If you do have information that pinpoints the location of the 'cd' gene as it involves tyrosinase, please share the share the reference source. Other loci affected the chinchilla gene 'C' (the GSD site calls it the 'color' gene) in dogs have been located, but so far, the 'cd' gene is a bogus one. Willis wrote about the 'cd' theory before we had developed the handle that we do on genome studies.

Behaviorally, the 'e/e' or extension gene as understood in current molecular studies on dog color works very well. Dr Schmutz is directly involved in the studies at a molecular level of dog color genetics. Again her page on 'white' in dogs is located here under the block of information for "White Coat with Pigmented Eyelids"
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/white.html

Loved your posting, btw. Take care.

[mike001]

Semavi---I was fascinated by your post, but was at a total loss. I think I will have to take down all your info and do a bit of studying since all this business of white shepherds is so involved. It's just that from the picture of the white shepherd the poster showed it seemed overly long and the structure doesn't really fit the standard that i know. Everyone always said that you should always breed to improve the breed. I just didn't understand a breeding with white shepherds I guess. off to do my studying. Thanks for all the info.

[SemaviLady]

My impression on the GSD and the white color issue in that breed, is that the history of the breed involves its war dog history and other uses that were promoted by von Stephanitz in order to ensure the breed's development and survival. A dog that could do it all (and truly, is a breed that does).

Out of that would come prejudice over different physical attributes -- and depending on one's point of reference during the formation period, the reasons could be realistic or made to sound mysteriously complicated to the point of urban legend. ...and thus it is for 'white color' in GSDs.

Some traits were easier to control than others. A rough coat, poor earset or white color were among the visible things that were not favored. Color as we know, is always an easy focus point.

Try to be stealthy on enemy territory while using white wardogs or flashily marked ones. Try to secure an after-hours area (civilian or military) with the same colors which may potentially be easily seen and shot. . . Consider that finances and training take a lot of resources, so consistency in the replacement dogs helped increase their longevity in use. (Of course, we know modern personal protection dogs of other breeds, particularly for civilians, can be excepted for their colors as they are not as likely to be used in stealth work -- and many didn't have the same promotional history as the GSD.)

It was the development of the versatility of the breed that helped emphasize the dark dog model. That's my interpretation of the issues.

[wolfsoul]

I did google that site those dogs are mostly in Europe from what I read. I thought they weren't accepted in America? I phoned a friend who breeds german shepherds and she was saying that a lot of the studs were infertile and the females had trouble going into whelp because of their genetics??? I guess I'm going to have to do more research,most of the posts I've read have differing opinions and I would be interested in finding out more. I help my friend a lot at dog shows, but have never seen a white shepherd there. I did look at the picture from the first poster but that dog doesn't really look like the shepherds I'm used to seeing at the shows. The one thing I did notice is that the back was way too long compared to other german shepherds. The whole structure was different, like the tail is set too high or something, and the face doesn't have the same expression. I'm not a judge though, just going from what I see at shows, mostly obedience competitions.
American White shepherds are not recognised by AKC. AKC does have a white option on registration papers, however.

The dog in the picture is very correct -- and, in fact, I find them to be shorter in the body than American GSDs -- not longer. Even when stacked to make it look as if the dog does have angulation when it doesn't, the body still appears more square. They do not have an extreme angulation, and are not "hock walkers."

AWS:
http://www.awsaclub.com/photo%20gallery%20images/prouds_little_angel_from_stafford.jpg
http://www.awsaclub.com/photo%20gallery%20images/xpect_the_best_uv_vantasia.jpg
http://www.awsaclub.com/photo%20gallery%20images/royal_von_tasz_classic_combo.jpg
http://www.awsaclub.com/photo%20gallery%20images/braeheads_fury.jpg

GSDs, American style:
http://www.whispawillowkennels.com/images/danni_bis5.jpg
http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/Zima%20Fut%20Win.jpg
http://www.dogsgermanshepherd.com/Andretti%202nd.jpg
http://www.amber-german-shepherds.com/images/CH%20AMber's%20Sky.jpg

[borzoimom]

Mike001-
The German Shepherd in the Us does have a longer back and more angulation. Also in most breeds in the US, a female is permitted to be longer in the back. Its funny you mentioned infertility in Germany, as the US breeders believe the shorter backed German dogs- this is the source of the problem- longer back, more room for puppies.. Wives tail or not- I am not sure, but its long been the accepted standard in the breed here, and accepted more among the females especially.
By US standards, Nicole has a beautiful example of the breed, even if it is not a recognized color yet. When the German Shepherd was admitted into the AKC, varieties of a breed were not as widly accepted, and seldom named seperate breeds. Now that practice is pretty widly done- with varieties based on colors seperated as such into seperate breeds. The most obvious example of this is the Cocker Spaniel. ( Black, particolor, ASCOB - any solid color other than black..) or even the White Bull Terrier, and the Colored Bull terrier. Other than color- the standard reads the same.
With the white shepherd- there is just as much a loyal following, although not accepted yet, its coming into reality of being accepted at some point. The actual debate is not whether to accept, but whether it will be a variety- alias seperate breed, or just accepted in as a recognized color. When the politicians in the dog world make up their minds, I sure their acceptance will be coming.
I do however, find it funny the AKC changed the Russian Wolfhound to a Borzoi, because of relationships with Russia at the time and since then. However- we now accept the Black Russian Terrier. There has been a fight since day one in this to restore the name of the Borzoi back to the Russian Wolfhound.

[mike001]

Borzoid, I really don't know much about the american show lines, we were dealing mostly with the german lines. But I did notice the difference in the pictures. The shepherds don't have to be stretched out as much as the white dogs to be stacked, it just looks more natural. I would be more concerned about the fertility issues since all our german friends do not favour the whites because of health issues. I'm still into some different sites studying genetics, most of the sites so far say white in shepherds is a recessive colour??? I haven't met any white shepherd breeders since whites are generally frowned upon . Why would you want to own a dog that was not accepted by the AKC in the first place?

[borzoimom]

Borzoid, I really don't know much about the american show lines, we were dealing mostly with the german lines. But I did notice the difference in the pictures. The shepherds don't have to be stretched out as much as the white dogs to be stacked, it just looks more natural. I would be more concerned about the fertility issues since all our german friends do not favour the whites because of health issues. I'm still into some different sites studying genetics, most of the sites so far say white in shepherds is a recessive colour??? I haven't met any white shepherd breeders since whites are generally frowned upon . Why would you want to own a dog that was not accepted by the AKC in the first place?
The AKC recognition or lack there of does not make a breed- perfect example is the Leonbergers. Old breed- started many others, but has yet to be recognized here. Border collies- one of the oldest in some form not accepted until a few years back- does that mean our acknowledgment from the AKC makes a breed??? NO- BY DEFINITION- they can not make recognized without generations of traceable dogs, and a established standard. That means the breed was already there. Being allowed to show in AKC shows only states we have accepted a breed into a group etc to compete.. Even the belgiums are divided differently in titles, seperated in coat type and color but called another breed by other National Kennel Clubs.
Meanwhile- the rare breed clubs continue to have their own specialties. Championships and titles are awarded as the breed continues. And our acknowledgement does not make the breed go "POOF" INSTANT BREED- the breed already existed. If you look- you will see some of the later breeds admitted are actually very OLD ( !!!!) BREEDS.. Our admission doesnt mean the breed started then- just when it was acknowledged into the AKC..

[wolfsoul]

I agree with borzoimom -- AKC is not the endall to breeds. There are thousands of breeds out there not registered with AKC -- white shepherds ARE registered with AKC, but as a GSD, not an AWS, and they can not be shown under AKC. Some other registries, such as UKC, do allow them to show as a seperate breed.

There is no difference in health problems -- the white in GSDs is a masking gene -- meaning that underneath the white it is still a black and tan, sable, black, bi-colour, etc -- it does not have the health problems associated with many other white "genes," such as homozygous "double" merling or albinism/partial albinism. It is a big myth that white shepherds have health problems.

[mike001]

Well, I have been doing some research as mentioned, and have contacted GSD breeders. Here is what I have learned from the most reputable breeders and some info that they mailed.
White Shepherds should not be bred, they carry too many genetic faults. To breed a white you must go back several generations and have proof that all the past dogs have tested negative for MEGAE-PRAA...you have to have several generations that prove negative for RTM. Most breeders of whites don't spend the money for these tests.
Also, problems such as hemophilia, rear dew claws, and heart problems are very prevalent due to the very small gene pool.
Thyroid and cardiac tests are also important but most breeders ignore this.
We are supposed to be bettering the breed, white shepherds do not do this.
Seems that is the reason for seperation.

[borzoimom]

I hate to tell you this, but all the problems you mentioned on in any shepherd in potential. As as matter of fact, the whites are LESS likely to have hip dysplasia- a genetic condition that runs rampant in the other colors! Cardio myophathy, spinal myophy etc are all present in the "colored" shepherds- unusual in the whites...

[jackfrost]

HD does not run rampant, there are many other breeds ahead of GSD's in that catagory about 40 of them or so and I don't think any other breed is as highly tested I think maybe Retrievers have the same number or so tested thru OFA, the rest aren't even close. As for breakdowns of White shepherds VS. GSD's, I have yet to see that stat. Plus you'd have a tough time convincing me that a color selected against since the very beginning of the breed and only bred by people breeding outside the standard for COLOR ONLY has a healthier animal. Sorry, but argue all you want, common sense just says it isn't so.

What's so hard to understand. They bred white's to white's to get white's. a very small gene pool. Those that are breeding "colored" GSD's to whites and still getting white's are using ones that have known white's in their pedigree. The top GSD's are not being studded out or using their brood bitches to breed to white dogs to improve them. It's not happening. If you love your dogs fine, but come back to reality please.

I myself have been involved in working dogs only a short time compared to a lot of people. I am a student of the breed and it's history. I have regular contact with people that have been involved in the working and training working dogs for longer than I've been alive and they nor I have ever seen a white shepherds doing the things GSDs are. Many people i know that have been in this stuff over 40 years have seen or heard of maybe one or two ever. I liken it to "designer dog " websites, they're above normal intelligence, they don't shed, they love every one, their best of every world.

[wolfsoul]

HD does not run rampant, there are many other breeds ahead of GSD's in that catagory about 40 of them or so and I don't think any other breed is as highly tested I think maybe Retrievers have the same number or so tested thru OFA, the rest aren't even close.
OFA is not reliable when trying to decide which breeds have HD more than others. I know if my dog got her X-rays done and the vet determined they would most likely come back OFA Dysplastic, I sure as heck wouldn't pay the money to send them in. The reason 99.9% of OFA x-rays that don't come back with numbers say the dog is only dysplatic in one hip is NOT just because hip dysplasia in one hip is more common -- it's because OFA looks at the hip joints TOGETHER rather than seperatly and grades them as such. If the other hip is truly in excellent shape, perhaps your grade as a whole may be better. Pennhipp is a better source for information as the vets must send the results in -- it is illegal if they don't. If you check with Pennhipp or ask your vet, I can guarantee you that the GSD is in the top 5 for hip dysplasia. We don't get alot of GSDs at the shop, and I'd say that GSDs make up the majority of dysplastic dogs we get.

I will also guarantee you that because there are less American white shepherd breeders than German shepherd breeders, and the American white shepherd breed was started in the day and age when we were more informed about health and temperament issues, that German shepherds are more likely to be dysplastic. More breeders, more health problems. White shepherds are also easier to show than GSDs -- if you look at pictures of many of them, they have ear placements and such that would never be acceptable in the GSD ring. Good reason to breed more for health and temperament, less for show. Belgians are the same way. Very easy breed to show as long as you have the temperament. Less of them, less to compete against.

It seems silly to me that people think just because they are breeding colours together, there is a limited gene pool. What if people were breeding black to black? Would there be a limited gene pool then? Of course not. If I bred strictly groenendael to groenendael, would I have a limited gene pool? No...And I'll bet you that there are more white GSDs registered with AKC and CKC than there are groenendael. Lines are one thing -- certain lines can be hard to get away from. But dogs in certain lines aren't always related, nor do lines always stay the same.

[NicoleLJ]

Every time I read someone saying that White Shepherd Breeders don't health test and so forth I laugh. I also laugh when people say they can not do the same as a GSD. Everything a GSD can do a WSD can do. If people think otherwise then they are living in teh dark ages and refuse to open their eyes to the facts. Color does not make the dog. Breeding does. It is that simple. I have been asked on other boards to provided proof that their are whites as police dogs, Sch. dogs, Service dogs and so forth. When I do the answer is always the same from the people who beleive the wives tales. "That dogs is a fluke. That is the only reason they are like that." It is halarious. If you don't like the white color fine. Don't own one. But don't lie about them and spread false info just because you don't like them. You don't judge people based on their color so why do it for dogs when all the wives tales have been proven false with Gentic testing. Also as for the health testing I have found that White Shepherd breeders are a lot more open about what is in their lines and a lot more active in trying to correct what is in their lines then the majority of GSD breeders. Great example of this is the White Shepherd Genetics Progect:

http://www.wsgenetics.org/

Which I am a proud participating member of. Yes there are bad breeders out there that don't do any testing. But guess what, there are a ton more BYB breeders in GSD's then there is in WS's. How do I know this? Common sense. There are WAY more GSD's then WS's. Here are facts. White Shepehrds are just as healthy as GSD's, White Shepherds can do everything a GSD can, White Shepherds have just as much of a chance of having genetic problems as a GSD no more or less. This is fact. Anyone who believes other wise is still living in teh dark ages of rumour before genetic testing. Like I said before. Color doesn't make the dog. Breeding does.
Nicole

[Danegirl2208]

Every time I read someone saying that White Shepherd Breeders don't health test and so forth I laugh. I also laugh when people say they can not do the same as a GSD. Everything a GSD can do a WSD can do. If people think otherwise then they are living in teh dark ages and refuse to open their eyes to the facts. Color does not make the dog. Breeding does. It is that simple. I have been asked on other boards to provided proof that their are whites as police dogs, Sch. dogs, Service dogs and so forth. When I do the answer is always the same from the people who beleive the wives tales. "That dogs is a fluke. That is the only reason they are like that." It is halarious. If you don't like the white color fine. Don't own one. But don't lie about them and spread false info just because you don't like them. You don't judge people based on their color so why do it for dogs when all the wives tales have been proven false with Gentic testing. Also as for the health testing I have found that White Shepherd breeders are a lot more open about what is in their lines and a lot more active in trying to correct what is in their lines then the majority of GSD breeders. Great example of this is the White Shepherd Genetics Progect:

http://www.wsgenetics.org/

Which I am a proud participating member of. Yes there are bad breeders out there that don't do any testing. But guess what, there are a ton more BYB breeders in GSD's then there is in WS's. How do I know this? Common sense. There are WAY more GSD's then WS's. Here are facts. White Shepehrds are just as healthy as GSD's, White Shepherds can do everything a GSD can, White Shepherds have just as much of a chance of having genetic problems as a GSD no more or less. This is fact. Anyone who believes other wise is still living in teh dark ages of rumour before genetic testing. Like I said before. Color doesn't make the dog. Breeding does.
Nicole


Great post Nicole

[jackfrost]

yeah, you're proof, a handful of dogs, the same exact dogs on two different sites, most from over 10 years ago, a lot from over 20 years ago. If that's all you can show, and its defineatly more than most people that have been working and training dogs in the past 30 years and you're proud of it, fine, but you shouldn't be spreading lies.

Ok, I won't take OFA's word for it, I'll just take it on your word from your "shop" on the HD. I"m sure you've seen many more.

as for people breeding just blacks, yes, they are ending up with a smaller gene pool, but not as small as the whites by far cause Blacks aren't selected against like the whites, not for the past 100 years or so, give or take. But breeding for color in not a good practice.

The big big big difference is that blacks aren't or haven't been selected against. They do show up regularly in GSD litters. Very very very few whites actually will show up in a a GSD litter by someone that isn't breeding specifically for whites. Another big big difference, I could put pages of black GSD's that just in the past year that have proven themselves in working venues, a much better showing than a handful from the past 30 years of whites.

In fact i've seen more ACD's, Corgi's and JRT's working than White GSD's over the years. Kinda says something to me.

And Nicole, if your dogs can do everything, PROVE IT, work your dogs, don't just say it. If you think i'm picking on you cause you have white dogs, i could care less, I"ve had it in with many GSD breeders that talk a lot of talk, but prove absolutely nothing. Are any of your dogs titled? I can see by your site they are not. Have you even produced any dogs that have gone on to do any work? have you even had any litters to be claiming these things?

The burden of proof really isn't on me, I don't have to prove a negative. you may love your dogs etc, but to claim they can do anything, when in fact they aren't doing anything is a lie. I gotta say, i've looked around on quite a few WGSD breeder websites and they are all the same. Words words words, and more words, accompanied by some claims and zero proof. No tests, no titles, no nothing. Talk is cheap.

[borzoimom]

you are pretty cold jackfrost.. :eek:

[NicoleLJ]

WOW sounds like someone had a bad Christmas. I had a great one.

I have done a search of Schuzund clubs, just teh US ones. I was shocked at how many whites are actually in Schutzund. They are quite common actually. I also contated a few of the clubs. They also told me they are not as uncommon as most people think. And many excel at it. And some don't. Just like with any breed. Some do well some don't. If you don't want to do the REAL research yourself to see if these dogs are out there doing these things then stop attacking the ones that provide proof that they do. I gava only a couple of links to just show you that they do do this stuff. Those pages showed many different dogs doing different tasks and that is why I provided those links. I am not going to sit here all day to list the many sites there are showing these dogs are titles and do do the work that a GSD can do just because you are too lazy to do it for your self and choose to beleive rumours instead of fact.

Too me it looks like all you want to do is attack something, have something to hate. It is sad that you choose the white shepherd for that. I am no longer going to sit here and keep providing proof of the facts just so you can close you eyes and cover your ears and say No No No. I provided the proof. I provided the facts. For those truely wanting to learn I will continue the discussion. But all I get from you is you want to attack and fight. Not discuss. Oh well. Your loss.

I hope everyone is having as Merry a Christmas as I am.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

I can assure you my christmas was great.

Since you've done the search of Sch clubs that have whites, post the links please. I'm far from lazy, in fact I've titled a few dogs this year myself and you? Just wondering. I have lots of contact with sch clubs from the west coast, the east coast, and everything in between. Contact with LEO's MWD's, Importers, etc. and I think my "searches" for good dog's everyday has more than proven to me that a working WGSD is a very rare occurance. Again you give me nothing but words.

I have not chosen the white shepherd to hate, I could care less. I've chosen "BS" as the culprit. Trust me, BYB's of the GSD world don't get any love from me either, nor do the ones that have not proven their breeding stock thru working titles, or actual work.

you have not provided me any proof, save for all intents and purposes about 10 dogs over the past 30 years. I could find 10 JRT's with Sch titles over that time period as well. Don't get me wrong, i love a good JRT, but I don't think anybody is really going to argue that qualifies them as being able to do the same things as well or better than a GSD.

I asked if your dogs are titled? and No they are not. I saw that for myself. Are their parent's titled?

Have you produced any dogs that are now working? Titled?

again, I don't have to prove a negative. If you really want me to dig up the results from the past year or two and show you that there were very few if any WGSD's that were titled in that year, well, let's just say i'm not going to waste my time. You really expect me to to go and find all the sites for wgsd's again just to show you that their breeding stock are NOT titled? Sorry I don't have to prove a negative.

[wolfsoul]

As the American white shepherd is bred primarily for therapy work, the titles you will generally see on an AWS are TDI, TT, CGN, CGC, etc. Nicole is breeding for therapy purposes. These titles basically do not mean anything to me -- a freaky dog can pass these tests. Hence why I wouldn't rely on titles when looking for a therapy puppy. I would rather meet the parents myself.

[jackfrost]

Those are certificates, not titles and I'm not aware of any breed clubs that use those as proof of breed worthiness. Which clubs use the TDI, or CGC or CGN as proof of breed worthiness? Just wondering?

I would rather meet the parents in any case, that's not the point.

I didn't ask specifically for titles, working dogs count, titles or not. ANy working dogs? and don't give me an example of s service dog that is so impt that it can be taken out of service without replacement to whelp and raise a litter for a month and a half. That's called a pet.

If you're going to make claims about white GSD's being smarter, more drive, and healthier, your darn right those titles mean everything. Put up or shut up, talk is cheap, so far that's all ive seen, excuses and words. Test your breeding stock or don't make hallow claims.

[mike001]

Nicole has stated that she was breeding for service dogs, now you say she is breeding for therapy dogs. There is a big difference, so which one is it?
Before getting a therapy dog you need your cgc, which Nicole has not said her dog had. How can you breed for anything if your dog is untitled. I have to agree with Jackfrost on this, all I've seen so far are 30 or 40 yr old links and pictures.
As for service dogs or therapy dogs there doesn't seem to be any that can pass cgc to become one.
Also there are absolutely no white GSD schH dogs. This I have checked out with our German friends who run a school for training schH. They have all the information from the other schools as they run together.
Maybe Nicole means that people train them by themselves for the fun of it (which can be very dangerous) but there are no graduates anywhere, nor any police dogs.
From what I have been told, the whites are lacking in temperament and nerves, therefore aren't suitable for much of any work.

[NicoleLJ]

Give it up wolfsoul. These two people have decided to live in teh dark. Let them. They are hurting no one. Anyone who honestly wants to learnt eh truth will read this thread and will see the proof I and others haev provided. Saying ther are NO police or Sch. White Shepherds is laughable to say the least. Notice how aggressive these two are in they posts. It is sad the hate they are showing. They do not want to learn the truth. They only want a fight. I have seen people like them before. They latch on to something and won't let go no matter teh proof they are shown. It is a waste of my time and yours to try and show them teh light. You and I an just about anyone else reading this thread will see the anger in their posts and will see that we do provide links. I am not going to sit here all day providing links because they do not want to do it themselves. I have much better things to do with my time. Just ignore them.

The white Shepherd is just that. A white Shepehrd. Anything a GSD can do a White Shepehrd can do. That is a fact. Genetic testing proved all teh old wives tails about whites to be false. It has been proven that Whites are just as healthy, intelligent, trainable and so forth as a GSD. Those are facts. If they choose to ignore facts let them.
Nicole

[wolfsoul]

Which clubs use the TDI, or CGC or CGN as proof of breed worthiness?

If you're going to make claims about white GSD's being smarter, more drive, and healthier, your darn right those titles mean everything.
I obtained my dog's CGN from CKC. No titles prove breed worthiness. Titles are just something that tell people you do stuff with your dog, and if you reply on them for proving breed worthiness, I caution you greatly, as no title will tell you such.


Nicole has stated that she was breeding for service dogs, now you say she is breeding for therapy dogs. There is a big difference, so which one is it? Before getting a therapy dog you need your cgc

Service dogs provide personal therapy -- thus making them therapy dogs. My dog is my service dog -- I still prefer calling her my therapy dogs. Makes me sound a hell of alot less helpless. Therapy,service,whatever. No, a dog does not need a CGC or CGN to be a therapy dog -- they do not need any titles. MY girl's mother was a therapy dog and went to nursing homes, and she did not have her CGN or CGC. All she had was her Can CH. My boy's grandfather was a therapy dog. All he had was his CDX.

[wolfsoul]

Yes Nicole, you are right. I don't think I will continue. My breed's variety (the groenendael) suffers alot of hate and disrespect in the schutzhund and french ring venues because it is a black dog. I just hate seeing a colour disregarded just because other colours are "better." My co-breeder had to leave the schutzhund club because the people basically forced her out with their cruelty. Her dogs were black, therefore they were not good.

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul I totlaly agree. I have seen examples in every type of titled dog where the dog has excelled in getting that title but because of temperment I would NEVER ever consider breeding the dog. Take for example show dogs. I have seen some outstanding examples conformation wise but the dogs temperments were awful but because they looked so good and had all teh titles they were still bred. I have seen some awsome Sch. dogs that also had awsome titles but off the field their temperments were unpredicatable and should not have been bred but were because they were Titled. Titles are great. Shows you do things, as you said, with your dogs. it is a peice of paper that proves your dogs can do that. But at the end of the day it is just a piece of paper. Great post Wolfsoul.
Nicole

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul all it is is racism. That is it. That is how I am many other see it. When the rumors are proven false with genetic testing and the dogs have proven to do the same as the "proper colors" but a few still choose to spread lies and hate about them then it is just racism. Some people need something to hate and take their anger and fustration on. So base their excuses on the color of a dog.

You and I and most others know the truth or are learning the truth about our wonderful dogs. Nothing that people who resfuse to open their eyes and ears say can change that. You and I will continue to educate the ones who truely want to learn and that is what matters.

I am sorry your friend went through that.
Nicole

[mike001]

You are wrong or misinformed about therapy dogs not needing a cgc for therapy work. Without a cgc the ST.John ambulance will not accept them for the course. This I can definitely vouch for as I am an adjucator for therapy dogs.
I get the feeling that when Nicole gets trapped under her misquotes she pretends it's the other person who wants to hate. This just overflows with self doubt on her part or the fact that she can't answer the questions truthfully so she changes the subject to get off the trail when it gets too rough. We are searching only for the truth and not trying to hate a breed. Although the breed had been eradicated some yrs ago because of the problems, some BYB's chose to bring it back as a novelty and a way to make $$$$.
No reputable breeder who is trying to better the breed would ever breed Whites.
This is something like the new trend for those "special breeds", like the cockapoos, labradoodles. chi poos etc. This is simply a byb dream of $$$$$.
If and when I read "real" proof dated in the present and not 30 yrs ago, I might consider reading it, otherwise as Jackfrost said...it is a waste of time.

[NicoleLJ]

Mike you are so funny. If you choose to take the time to either one:read the entire thread and check out teh links provided or two do some research for yourself you will see what you said is false. NO therapy dog has to have a CGC. How do I know this because I have several friends who have therapy dogs. ALl they had to do was take a test and it wasn't a CGC. Just a quick test to check the temperment of the dog. That is all. AS for White shepehrds I have provided links, and proof. I provided those sites because they showed many types of jobs the whites do. Which meant I had less links to post. I am not going to sit here all day finding things for you for you just to sit there and say it is a fluke. Sorry. Not worth my time.

AND the funniest part of the post of yours(had tears running down my eyes I was laughing so hard) is where you say they were eradicated. LOLOLOL that is so funny. That never happened. Didn't even come close to happening. But you of course will never beleive that. Keep the jokes coming. I am enjoying them.
Nicole

[wolfsoul]

You are wrong or misinformed about therapy dogs not needing a cgc for therapy work. Without a cgc the ST.John ambulance will not accept them for the course.
St John's ambulance is one of the MANY therapy groups, and it is not found in many many places. If you contact other therapy groups you will find that the majority of them do not need a CGN or CGC, but rather just to pass their own screening process. Pets and People is the group my dog's mother went through and she went on to be a therapy dog at 18 months old with only her Canadian Championship.

I completely agree Nicole -- I know and know of so many dogs who are working or show titled that should not be bred.

I know someone who breeds tollers and she got all of her dogs' Chs by pinning them against eachother in the ring, thus giving them points. Easy to do when you have an uncommon breed in the ring -- I could do it with my Belgians if I wanted to. One time the judge said "none of these dogs deserve ribbons," which is almost NEVER done, and she excused them all. Another time, in the group ring, the judge asked "why are there two goldens in the ring?" proving just what kind of show quality her dogs were.

I know a schutzhund/drug and bom detection./french ring trainer in Alberta. His multi titled schutzhund dog tried to eat my dog and then came after me. My co-breeder was in the schutzhund club for years and witnessed things that almost turned her off the sport. You get the dogs that think of it as a fun game, and then you get the dogs that are serious about it. She'd seen people be attacked more than once unprovocatively by these dogs, who were probably titled. I know a dog with her TT and CGC who was tested for French ring and tested well -- she took after a man who was wearing a puffy jacket in the winter time and latched on to his arm. I knew a rotti lab mix with his CGN who attacked and almost killed my friend -- literally almost ripped her head off, she was lucky most of her throat was intact enough that she didn't bleed to death.

Goes to show you that a title does not prove conformation, working ability, temperament, and especially health.

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul you are soooo right. I would never say titles are bad to have. They are great. Like you said before it shows you do things with your dog and also shows your dog can do those things. But none of them, as you said, means a dog should or should not be bred.
Nicole

[mike001]

Makes me also sad to see you joke about the seriousness of the problem. That is what I meant by changing the subject when things get too close to home for comfort. Why can't you just answer like an adult like the rest of us? Of course you might be just a teenager, I totally forgot about that, and teenagers are so slow to understand sometimes. But so far the links provided are outdated and prove nothing.
This only reinforces my belief that you are not being truthful with your posts and are in fact hiding something.
As of now, my opinion is that you really don't understand anything about what you are discussing, nor do you understand the WGSD and the problems associated with it. You can't even be sure you will be able to breed your dog as infertility in females and males is one of the main problems.

Wolfsoul, I don't know where you are from, but cgc IS required for a dog to be accepted by the ST.John's Ambulance for therapy work. They are the ones to present you with your vest, badge and certificate. There might be some fly by nights who can fool the public, but real Therapy dogs have to pass a rigorous test.Being an adjucator for quite a few yrs I certainly know this to be true.
As for calling your dog a therapy dog, service dog or whatever, it shows how little you know about service dogs. A therapy dog is quite different from a Service dog. A therapy dog has access to hospitals and nursing homes, but no access anywhere else. A certified service dog has access to all public places So you can't compare the two. Maybe you mean your dog is an emotional support dog, in which case it doesn't have any access.

[NicoleLJ]

Mike I give up with you. LOL Infertility is not a problem is white shepherds. Never has been. You keep making all these claims about them having this or that problem but yet you provied NO proof. We have provided some but you just make accusations and provide NO proof. As for hiding anything I have nothing to hide. Never have. I just choose not to state the answers Over and Over and Over agian because you chose to say it is a fluke or those are too old. lol Her eis a question for you. If those dogs are so old and the White shepherd was eradicated, AS you claim(LOLOLOLOL), then why were they so able to do those things when as you claim they first started out? You are the one saying they are prone to health problems(Prove it with links to teh genetic tests saying so) you are teh one saying they can't do those things and never have so prove that. I have shown they have. Only shown a small number so people can see the many things they can do, but at least I have shown something. You on teh other hand have shown NOTHING except that you believe in wives tails.
Nicole

[wolfsoul]

Wolfsoul, I don't know where you are from, but cgc IS required for a dog to be accepted by the ST.John's Ambulance for therapy work. They are the ones to present you with your vest, badge and certificate. There might be some fly by nights who can fool the public, but real Therapy dogs have to pass a rigorous test.Being an adjucator for quite a few yrs I certainly know this to be true.
As for calling your dog a therapy dog, service dog or whatever, it shows how little you know about service dogs. A therapy dog is quite different from a Service dog. A therapy dog has access to hospitals and nursing homes, but no access anywhere else. A certified service dog has access to all public places So you can't compare the two. Maybe you mean your dog is an emotional support dog, in which case it doesn't have any access.

Where did I say CGC isn't requied for St John's ambulance? I don't know of their practises, all I know is that St John's Ambulance is not the only therapy organization and I've never heard of another organization that used it as a requirement rather than it's own screening process, like the organization my dog's mother went through, Pets and People.

I have a service dog, and yes, I do prefer to call her a therapy dog. When I call her a service dog I feel as though people look down on me as someone who "needs service." Makes me sound helpless. I'd rather she be my therapy dog, as that is what she is to me -- she calms and reassures me, and provides me with the mental therapy that I need.

[NicoleLJ]

I soooo know what you mean. When I have to explain about Sheena I hate the pitty look they give me. Also Wolfsould could you empty your in box I need to pm you somthing.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

I have two therapy dogs- and neither were required to have their CGC prior. Depends on where you live etc. Also a Therapy dog is different than Therapy dog International. I chose not to list my dogs in TDI because it puts my dogs on a national registry, and I am not willing to travel to other places, as they already go to two hospitals locally.

[jackfrost]

Goes to show you that a title does not prove conformation, working ability, temperament, and especially health.

You're right a title isn't the be all and end all, BUT let me ask you a question.

How did the GSD gain its reputation as a service dog, for detection, SAR, military and police work, guardians of the home, loyal family companions, leaders of the blind, etc?? Thru careful breeding and testing the breeding stock and proving them. For GSD's it involves schutzhund that proves the breed worthiness. Maybe proves is the wrong word, but i'm sure you know what I mean. They didn't get their reputation by just breeding what every breeder wanted to consider a good dog. They were tested and judged against a standard. Ch show ratings don't mean a hill of beans as GSD breeding is working dog breeding or it is not GSD breeding. As said by the founder of the breed.

My point about the CGC, CGN, TDI, etc are certificates, yes they show you've done something with your dog. You can argue title, certifciate whatever, it doesn't matter. My point is that the tests are very basic and prove little of the capabilities of the dog. My intent is not to demean the title, but breed clubs have specific tests that show the drive and temperment of the breed and what they are capable of. The CGC, etc aren't one of those tests used to test and prove breeding stock, that is my point.

My breed's variety (the groenendael) suffers alot of hate and disrespect in the schutzhund and french ring venues because it is a black dog.

I have seen and been a part of training in your breed and many other black dogs, I don't really see the disrespect and hate towards black dogs like you claim. If we had white one's coming thru that wouldn't matter either. As i've said before its the BS I don't like. and there are what 4-5 or more posts since i've asked some specific questions and still I get words and excuses. Where are all these WGSD's that are working. Therapy dogs and service dogs are worlds apart, i'm not going to spell out the differences here.


When the rumors are proven false with genetic testing and the dogs have proven to do the same as the "proper colors" but a few still choose to spread lies and hate about them then it is just racism. Some people need something to hate and take their anger and fustration on. So base their excuses on the color of a dog.

Again, it has absolutely nothing to do with the color. Genetic testing doesn't prove anything about the working ability of the dog. I'm not spreading lies, i'm not spreading hate. If a very small handful of dogs from decades ago is all you have to prove that they're working dogs, its pitiful at best.


The white Shepherd is just that. A white Shepehrd. Anything a GSD can do a White Shepehrd can do. That is a fact. Genetic testing proved all teh old wives tails about whites to be false. It has been proven that Whites are just as healthy, intelligent, trainable and so forth as a GSD. Those are facts. If they choose to ignore facts let them.

So prove it, i'm still waiting. What titles do your dogs have? What have they proven? Being a therapy dog going to nursing homes proves nothing but a dog with stable temperment. You want to claim that wgsd's can do anything a GSD can do, then prove it. Get them on the field, test their nerve, test their courage, test their strenght, test their willingness to work alone and with a handler, test their physical attributes, do something. This talk is tiring. Again, you said you have lots of clubs that say they aren't uncommon, show me one. I've been around a while and been involved with people that have been even longer and like I said before there have been more JRT's, ACD's and Corgi's proving themselves on the field that WGSD's

So again test your breeding stock, quit making excuses. Just because some dogs have titles that are questionable doesn't make the titles wrong. It makes the unethical people that are skirting rules and breeding standards that are. The tests are still very real and very valuable, using that as an excuse not to do them is just laziness and unethical by any standards.

Again, if you're going to make claims, you better have something to back them up with. 2 WGSD's that were on police forces 20 years ago, or a WGSD that made SchH III 30 years ago is, like it was said before, an anomoly, a rarity, not common place. While i'm living in the dark ages, some of us should come back to reality.

[borzoimom]

Jackfrost- the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC..
Tell me- is it partly cloudy, or partly sunny where you are???? I think you would argue either points, when the weather doesnt depend on you to make a prediction.. If Nicole said partly cloudy- it sounds like to me you would argue " partly sunny"...

[mike001]

Wolfsoul if your dog "calms and reassures" you, she is an emotional support dog not a service dog. A service dog is trained to do specialized work depending on the person's disability. A guide dog for the blind, a hearing dog for the deaf, a service dog for people with handicaps, such as no balance, unable to walk etc, the list goes on and on. there are some terrific links to these service dog training centres, if I had them on hand I would refer you.
ESA's are not recognized and have no access. But there is definitely a place for them in a person's home.
I don't know why you would think people give you pitying looks if you use a certified service dog, I see people using them and have yet to see anyone do this. Maybe you are self concious and imagine this.

Nicole, as far as giving you proof, if you were truly going to breed your dog, you would have read about infertility in White Shepherds. When you provide proof that is of this year or at least starting at the yr, 2000, I will send my proof. I have all those old relics on hand myself, they just don't hold a drop of water anymore. Today's breeders are educating themselves in the today world, not the past.

Since Boxing day is for friends and families, I think I will go and wait for my guests instead of wasting time on a useless debate.

[NicoleLJ]

Mike where is the proof they are infertile? You don't have any that is why you can't post any. White shepehrds are no more infertile then GSD's. You are funny. As for pittying looks. Anyone that has had a service dog knows what I mean. Not everyone gives them but some do. Like I said you make all these claims and provide nothing to back it up. I provide links, proof even a link to the WS genetics program. What have you provided?
Nicole

[wolfsoul]

I don't understand why someone who isn't breeding for schutzhund should have to do schutzhund? Heck, I AM breeding for schutzhund and not only are my dogs untitled in it, but I haven't even done any schutzhund yet.

There really is alot of prejiduce against the groenendael in protection sports, and the black GSD for that matter too -- we recently had a discussion on the Belgian list about GSDs vs Belgians, and the topic of black GSDs came up. It interests me that in working venues people can be so iffy about colours. If the dog can work, who cares? Even if you are right and the American white shepherd breed as a whole can not do schutzhund (even though that is not it's original purpose, such as your comparison with jack russells -- though they can do it, most do not simply because it isn't what it's intended to do), would you be so prejiduced against individual white dogs that do do schutzhund? Or is it just against the ones doing their original purpose, therapy work? The original intent of the GSD was a herding dog -- how many schutzhund GSDs do you see herding?

My inbox is empty Nicole!

[wolfsoul]

Wolfsoul if your dog "calms and reassures" you, she is an emotional support dog not a service dog. A service dog is trained to do specialized work depending on the person's disability. A guide dog for the blind, a hearing dog for the deaf, a service dog for people with handicaps, such as no balance, unable to walk etc, the list goes on and on. there are some terrific links to these service dog training centres, if I had them on hand I would refer you.
My dog not only "calms and reassures" me which can bring me down from a panic attack, but she also detects any signs of psychotic episodes and immediatly brings me home -- the last time I had a bad episode I jumped into the lake in the frezing winter. Psychological disabilities are just as crippling as physical ones. I am off my old medications now and have not needed her for a few months though I still take her out on any days that feel off to me, just incase.

[jackfrost]

the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC..

very true, which is why I have zero faith in what the AKC does in preserving working breeds and entirely not the point of what I was saying. There are parent breed clubs that do require breeding stock to be tested and judged against a standard in working venues, and the GSD is one of them. AKC doesn't even recognize working titles, and pretty much have no requirements other than having a pedigree to be bred, again not the point.


I don't understand why someone who isn't breeding for schutzhund should have to do schutzhund?

You don't breed for schutzhund, you breed for a complete dog, which is what the GSD is supposed to be, its the breed test, it's what is used to test and prove breeding stock, it tests nerve, strength, temperment etc. Its the strict standards in breeding and testing that brought the GSD the reputation it has today, and should be preserved. To claim your "breed" can do everything a GSD can do and more??, then prove it.


The original intent of the GSD was a herding dog -- how many schutzhund GSDs do you see herding?

The original intent of the herding dog was one of athletic ability that could run and be agile enough to tend sheep, keep them in line etc, be courageous enough and have the strength to ward off a predatory attack, and have the energy and stamina to work the fields all day. Then at nigh it had to be stable enough and still protective enough to guard the home. At that time in history there were many guardian dogs and many herding dogs, but none that could really do it all. The guardian breeds too big and not athletic enough, and the other "herder" weren't strong enough mentally of physically to engage attackers. not long after the GSD was made famous those qualities were still desired, although the landscape of Germany and the need for herding was diminished, so Schutzhund was developed to ensure that those qualities were tested and maintained within the breed.

Tell me- is it partly cloudy, or partly sunny where you are???? I think you would argue either points, when the weather doesnt depend on you to make a prediction.. If Nicole said partly cloudy- it sounds like to me you would argue " partly sunny"...
Here are some of Nicole's word's


White Shepherds can perform in and excel at AKC performance events like obedience, tracking, agility, flyball and herding trials. White Shepherds can be police dogs, bomb detection dogs, drug sniffing dogs, and Search and Rescue dogs just to list a few.

-Second Whites have been working dogs their entire history. there are whites doing Schutzund even. Don't believe me I can direct you to some. Whites can and do work in Military, Police, SAR's, Herding, Therapy, Assistance, Guide, you name it the White Shepherd has and does do it.

-White Shepherds are a working breed. They have the extremely stable temperment to prove it, the drive to work, the love of people and the sound structure for the job.

Now that is the truth.

-The white has already proved itself in work agianst the standard colored GSD. And it defiantely can hold its own agianst them and in some cases surpass them.

My soul purpose, whether you or anyone else likes it or not, is to produce dogs that have the best structure, temperment, drive, intelligence and so forth to go on to be service dogs for the disable. That is my one and only purpose.

Thank you for your great posts. They are very incitful and I am learning a lot from them. I totally agree with you statement of "well bred WGSDs have slightly more drive and brain." It is so true.

And no they are not RARE. They are just not as common as their colored counterparts.

Everything a GSD can do a WSD can do.


Sounds like she, along with any other white GSD breeder I've seen always directly relates what their dogs do, to the reputations the GSD has built for itself. To that i've said it 1000 times, PROVE IT. There's a reason the GSD has its reputation, and people breeding WGSD's do none of it, where are the LSP, BSP, SchH, HGH winners and titles in those venues? If you're not testing or proving that the WGSD can do anything and everything etc except for a handful of dogs over the pas 30 years I suggest you get off the computer and get training some dogs.

[borzoimom]

Quote:
quote borzoimom "the US or Canada do not require a working title for breeding consideration- there are only a few breeds that do here ( like the Leo's) and even then- they are not accepted by the AKC.. /



Quote jackfrost://"very true, which is why I have zero faith in what the AKC does in preserving working breeds and entirely not the point of what I was saying. There are parent breed clubs that do require breeding stock to be tested and judged against a standard in working venues, and the GSD is one of them. AKC doesn't even recognize working titles, and pretty much have no requirements other than having a pedigree to be bred, again not the point."...'

So you are saying the dogs should do as originally bred to do or not be allowed to compete- so pit bull types should fight other dogs, the bulldog should bait bulls, Komondors should live with sheep, and Saints should rescue in the Alps to be a breed-... Your logic doesnt make sense... And the shepherd is in the herding group, but the fact is, they were a all around working farm dog- big enough to herd, protect the farm etc.. By your logic the non sporting breeds/ and most misc. class dogs would not exist- including Skipperkees, etc...

[NicoleLJ]

borzoimom - excellent post. Since I am not breeding for a Sch dog I am not testing in it. In fact many service dog programs will not accept dogs that have this training in them. I am breeding to produce service dogs, so that I can donate the ones who temperment test as having a chance at it to trainers and facilities. So I am breedng a Proven service dog to a male that has been titled in TT, CGC and so forth. He also has been shown to Ch. and also has been tested in herding. So I am hoping that combining these two will produce some service dog candidates. I do not see the need to title in sch or have the males I wish to use with Sheena titled in that. Nor many of the other titles. For my breeding program those titles are meaningless. It all depends on what someone is breeding for. What their goals are in their breeding program. If I was breeding for herding dogs I would focus on herding titles, if I was breeding for police dogs then I would go for tracking titles and sch titles. it all depends on WHAT people are breeding for.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

Nicole- neither jackfrost or mike knows what they are talking about. I have been in shepherds over 20 years, and just want to get someone to talk to them..

[mike001]

Well now that was an interesting post from Nicole. She says she is breeding a"proven service dog", yet her so called service dog has no titles? Could you tell us what school you and your dog graduated from and why you said you didn't think your dog needed any titles or certificates? When you graduate with your dog, you have a certificate to prove it is a service dog. And you say you are not interested in working titles. That is what a GSD was born to do. You want us to believe you will automatically have service dog quality pups when the dam is not proven in anything? Shelter dogs are often taken in to be trained as service dogs and they do a great job. You are not interested in obedience, how does one expect a service dog to follow instuctions and commands without basic obedience. And what about tracking? What if the dog is in charge of an alzheimer's patient or an autisitc child and they wander away? How would the dog find his "charges" if he knew nothing of tracking?

A GSD is first and foremost a working dog in the true sense of the word. If your dog can't meet the requirements, it should not be bred. You skirt around the issue of your dog's titles or certificates, which to me points out that she has none.

What would happen if a guide dog were to lead a blind person and a car backfired and the dog freaked ? Or what if a dog accompanied a disabled person and met some unruly people and decided to growl or raise it's hackles?
These dogs would quickly be washed out of a program. That is why it is so important that service dogs experience all kinds of noises and distractions before entering a program.

If a dog has not been proven for steady drive and nerves, then it can't be considered as a true working GSD. The training a schH dog gets only proves his worthiness more, every GSD was born for this type of work. A GSD is nothing but a pet without proof of being able to work as it was bred to do.

As for police work, they do not accept WGSD's because they are too visible to go undetected. If you can show me one white proven GSD of today, not eons ago, I might tend to believe there might be one or two in the deep recesses of somewhere, but you can't even prove your own dog's worthiness.

The best proof I can give you is to send you to Fred Lanting's explanations of real GSD's. Knowing how intensive and complicated his readings are, I'm sure you won't want to dedicate the necessary time to it.
Or, there is also a great forum on service dogs that you could access for information, I think it's called "Our Community service dogs". I could ask for the name from a friend if you can't get into the site.

[borzoimom]

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..

[NicoleLJ]

Mike you are starting to sound very familiar. She is a PROVEN service dog. She is a PSD. Just to give you some education(which I have a sneaking suspision I have given you before) Service dogs DO NOT have to have any titles. None Nana nothing. They DO NOT have to be trained by a facility. They can be owner trained. There is NO law in in Canada or the States that says a service dog has to be certified or have titles or have to be trained by a facility. THAT IS A FACT.

So since Sheena is a PROVEN service dog she has a higher chance of producing service dogs. Is that a garentee that she will? Nope. Have I ever said she will produce service dogs and that all her puppies will be service dogs? NOPE never. All I ever said is that is what I am breeding for. So I find dogs with those qualities and HOPE that I will produce at least a few. That is how breeding works.

AS for obience titles and the like I have NEVER said I don't like them. In fact I state over and over agian that that titles are great to have. I just said they are not the be all and end all of whether a dog should be bred or not.

I am sorry you can not open your eyes and truely learn. You are the one who loses out on all this but staying in teh dark.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..
.....

[NicoleLJ]

borzoimom - Great post. I agree whole heartedly. Sheena is trained to take control. Take for example when I have a panic attack in a crowded store. She is trained to take control and guide me to a safe place. She is even trained to find help or if I am close to home to take me home. She is trained to find indiviual people in a store. All I have to do is say their name and she takes me to them. Certian service dogs are trained to "disobey" in certain cases. But other types of working dogs are trained to strictly obey.

One of the reasons I don't title Sheena in Obedience(though she could do most of it) is because some of the commands go agianst her training. I do not want her to be trained to think she ahs to obey every time when it comes to somethign where she needs to disobey to make sure she does her job. Do I make sense? I hope I do.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX

[borzoimom]

borzoimom - Great post. I agree whole heartedly. Sheena is trained to take control. Take for example when I have a panic attack in a crowded store. She is trained to take control and guide me to a safe place. She is even trained to find help or if I am close to home to take me home. She is trained to find indiviual people in a store. All I have to do is say their name and she takes me to them. Certian service dogs are trained to "disobey" in certain cases. But other types of working dogs are trained to strictly obey.

One of the reasons I don't title Sheena in Obedience(though she could do most of it) is because some of the commands go agianst her training. I do not want her to be trained to think she ahs to obey every time when it comes to somethign where she needs to disobey to make sure she does her job. Do I make sense? I hope I do.
Nicole & Sheena PSD OFA FD FDX
Nicole- I have shared this before but not on this thread. My Zubin has a gift. Now both he and his sister Galina work with children with cancer at two hospitals. However- Zubin has a gift.. He has had it since day one- keeping in mind, all of these children have some form of cancer, but Zubin can tell which one is failing- and the joke of this is- it sometimes goes against the medical reports. We have had situations of a child being sent to a huge childrens hospital as failing in cancer recovery- Zubin acts a little like a goof ball- willing to play fetch with the child- wagging his tail slowly.. The child was discharge in two weeks from the new hospital with a " yes its in full remission" . Another child- was supposed to be discharged with only treatments- Zubin would not leave that child- he stood there with his head in his lap pressing gently- would not leave ( the story is on my website).. The child died that night when the next morning he was supposed to be discharged- ... How he knows- we have no clue- but of the 7 pups in this litter- 4 are now therapy dogs- not bred with that in mind- the parents are top show dogs- but 4 in this litter are Therapy dogs- and it comes natural to them... Borzois are supposed to be rather aloof and dignified etc- these guys are open- calmly friendly and bothered by NOTHING! ... And Zubin and Galina are flat out hams in the ring- Look at the judges face on my website under our dogs- and look at the judges face under Zubin- ....

[borzoimom]

And one more thing Nicole- I do believe they have gifts within them we can not understand. Like what yours does with your situation, Zubin is the reason I went to the doctor because he kept pressing his head into my lap and rested his head on me all the time- even sending instant messanges to people like "hjkl" as he rested his head on the table my lap top is at. I went to the doctor- scared he was detecting cancer- it wasnt- but it was serious. Its not cancer he is detecting as he works with those that have it- its a change in life whatever and he is trying to help- just like yours is doing..

[NicoleLJ]

Your dogs sound amazing. borzoimom. I always trust my dogs. No matter what I always trust them. They know things we don't.
Nicole

[mike001]

Borzoid, it is a known fact that some dogs have an inborn sense for this, especially cancer and for seizures. No one can argue that fact. I have witnessed these dogs several times.
As for schH. I have trained 4 GSD's in that and I feel they are safer than your untrained dog. They do not decide for themselves to attack, they need a command or they do not pass. This is not to deny that some schH dogs are trained to detect danger and act on heir own.
As for self trained service dogs, I don't think I've ever heard of this, But I have a friend who works in service dog work for the Lion's Foundation and I can enquire about this. But if a dog is owner trained where would the test be passed? Even the pets and people that Wolfsoul was talking about is run by the Humane society and have the test printed right on their site. They do mention that it is a public access test and the applicants do recieve a certificate of pass or failure.
Bottom line is, if a dog shows any sign of aggression, like growling, biting,raising hackles, showing teeth, it is an automatic failure, regardless of performance.
I think this is the point we are trying to make, these dogs have to be proven for access rights.
But again, I think Fred lanting's books and sites say more than any of us could and prove without a doubt what we are discussing.

[borzoimom]

To not get into specifics- but Zubin's actions actually could have saved my life.. You let her do what she does- she knows.. They have insights we can not have- .. After so many years with shepherds- I have so many stories of my dogs, and those farmed out into line of duty etc even show- that it defies how they know. One night- I was laying down reading a book on the couch in my living room. All the dogs were in their crates but my one female- that loved to lay with me- SHE WAS THE ONLY ONE IN THE HOUSE THAT WAS NOT A Sch. Trained dog. Suddenly she started pacing- looking- then ran at the window- I yelled like I thought she had lost her mind- and was going to dive through it, when I heard something bang and crash on the front deck. I looked out the window in time to see two men running from the window and she was going BANANAS- set off the whole house- I grabbed the phone and called the police- and they got a chuckle to arrive at my house- with all the dogs crated- but I knew darn well- every single one of them- including her- would have gone over that 6 foot high fence.. The door knob had a screw driver stuck in it.. One of the accomindations I have from the San Franciso PD- one of my dogs- the dog had uh been in an arrest earlier in the week. This one night, the officer had a meeting at the office, and left the dog at home- they came to break into his house- with his wife and children in the house- took a bullet- but bite two of the men- cornering the other - all with only screams of commotion- not a single command. ... And the testimonies can continue..

[borzoimom]

[QUOTE=mike001]Borzoid, it is a known fact that some dogs have an inborn sense for this, especially cancer and for seizures. No one can argue that fact. I have witnessed these dogs several times.
As for schH. I have trained 4 GSD's in that and I feel they are safer than your untrained dog. "//quote=

I had 35 shepherds at one time- 17 Otch- etc in titles- Trained 4??? I did that in my first year---.. Your constant attack at Nicole has brought me out- I find your knowledge in shepherds far from anything you can document, nothing you have experienced, and soley for the reason your actions are strange... The more you talk- the more I discount you and experience- PUT DOWN A BOOK- AND PUT YOUR OWN PROOF IN YOUR own dogs- because its not there-...
***** AND I AM NOT borzoid- I AM BORZOIMOM!!**

[borzoimom]

And I will tell you something else mike'd-
HAVE YOU ever met Fred Lantings?? I HAVE! Have you ever worked with Fred Lantings?? I HAVE!! And he would be horrified at how you are twisting his words- you obviously have never worked with him, or even possible totally read/NOR UNDERSTOOD anything by him.. He states you breed for traits desired, but understanding the total working dog is capable of all sorts of work. Case in point- I had several litters that were out of show parents- top in the show world- litter of 9- 7 ( SEVEN) WERE natural Sch. dogs- one was totally show- and one was a pet by desire of the owner- want more examples???? I had another litter- supposed to be all Sch? police work dogs- everyone show-... Top obedience titles- but all show-... You fail to understand the total make up of the Shepherd, and seriously misunderstand the ability of a shepherd- farm dog, or police, guide dog or therapy, ... The shepherd fits it- and your narrow mindedness is why people do not allow the natural traits the dog of a all well rounded dog.. Maybe your dogs are shy at back firing cars- MINE NEVER WERE..

[wolfsoul]

Quote:
You don't breed for schutzhund, you breed for a complete dog, which is what the GSD is supposed to be.
This isn't the GSD -- this is the AWS. In your logic, breeding for the whole dog involves breeding for schutzhund?? What about the other breeds that weren't originally bred to be your opinion of the "whole dog?" They have to be schutzhund titled in order to be a complete dog too? AWSs are used mainly for therapy/service work. Where does schutzhund fall into that category? I can argue that the dog should be flying disc titled too. It's the same irrelevance.

Even the pets and people that Wolfsoul was talking about is run by the Humane society and have the test printed right on their site. They do mention that it is a public access test and the applicants do recieve a certificate of pass or failure.
No it isn't -- the Pets and People Society has nothing to do with the Okanagan Humane Society. The humane society here is small and run out of volunteers' homes -- they do not have a facility like the SPCA and they do not have any affiliation with any of the clubs or societies in the Okanagan.

[jackfrost]

Nicole- neither jackfrost or mike knows what they are talking about. I have been in shepherds over 20 years, and just want to get someone to talk to them..
quite an assumptions, so what have I said that has been untrue, you think in 20 years you would have learned a bit more.

[jackfrost]

Quote:
So you are saying the dogs should do as originally bred to do or not be allowed to compete- so pit bull types should fight other dogs, the bulldog should bait bulls, Komondors should live with sheep, and Saints should rescue in the Alps to be a breed-... Your logic doesnt make sense... And the shepherd is in the herding group, but the fact is, they were a all around working farm dog- big enough to herd, protect the farm etc.. By your logic the non sporting breeds/ and most misc. class dogs would not exist- including Skipperkees, etc...
Wow, even after I specifically pointed out, with her own words how she constantly compares and puts WGSD's ahead of GSD's you still miss the point entirely. I said the GSD has a reputation, that reputation was built thru careful breeding and testing their breedings stock for the complete dog PERIOD. That is how the GSD became the service dog that it is. if you're going to compare the WGSD, which I used her own words, and I'm sure I could find more than a few other posters in this thread that have also, then you better be PROVING your dogs like the GSD has. The fact of the matter is they haven't proven anything, other than a handful of dogs over the past 30 years or longer. That's a long time.

as for the other working dogs, yes, i'm sure they could come up with tests to test their drive and temperment the same to keep the breeds the same without bull baiting and the like, but they aren't my breed I"m not going to get into what they should do. However if they were going to be claiming they can do everything the same or better than a GSD, you bet I'd be telling them to prove it to me. But I have seen far more pits being proven that WGSD's as well.

[jackfrost]

borzoimom - excellent post. Since I am not breeding for a Sch dog I am not testing in it. In fact many service dog programs will not accept dogs that have this training in them. I am breeding to produce service dogs, so that I can donate the ones who temperment test as having a chance at it to trainers and facilities. So I am breedng a Proven service dog to a male that has been titled in TT, CGC and so forth. He also has been shown to Ch. and also has been tested in herding. So I am hoping that combining these two will produce some service dog candidates. I do not see the need to title in sch or have the males I wish to use with Sheena titled in that. Nor many of the other titles. For my breeding program those titles are meaningless. It all depends on what someone is breeding for. What their goals are in their breeding program. If I was breeding for herding dogs I would focus on herding titles, if I was breeding for police dogs then I would go for tracking titles and sch titles. it all depends on WHAT people are breeding for.
Nicole
I never said you had to be breeding for schutzhund. I said you need to be testing your breeding stock, I guess you missed the part about HGH. That is a long ways away from being "herding tested" and TT and CGC prove nothing. Test your breeding stock and prove something. Those who say titles are meaningless had nothing to do with the reputation the GSD has today. ITs the mentality of BYB's and puppy mills. I hope you enjoy the company you keep.

[jackfrost]

* ( you two are starting to sound like you are 'beating a dead horse')...
Following another one sided post, let me present it this way- you use the example of a dog leading a blind person being startled- you do know the difference from a dog that is trained and bred to be a guide dog and a Sch. dog right??? I doubt it- because a dog raised to be in Sch. the fact is- if a person were to approach a person, acting funny- like with a cane strangly dressed etc, the dog would be ready to attack- verses a therapy dog that is raised to accept all forms of canes, wheel chairs, walkers etc or people with a physical disability- INCLUDING the ability to speak clearly. Second- a dog bred and trained to be a guide dog has to be able to disobey- my first belgium is a good example of this- she failed the Morristown seeing eye- because of her REFUSAL TO DISOBEY A COMMAND= thus potentially putting her and her owner in serious danger. A police trained dog or Sch. the fact is- the dog should not EVER NOT RELEASE a bite, or fail to do what it is told.. I think both of you- mike and jackfrost just want to argue with Nicole, and I asking Karen to take a look at your posts..

you are so wrong. One my schH trained dogs go everywhere with me and don't get freaked by canes and silly acting people. They've been tested and can tell the difference of a threat and silly people. Second, and SChH trained dog wouldn't be a guide dog, it would be the tested dog, shown to have all the requisite parts of a GSD and used for breeding the guide dogs. SchH trained dogs think and act on their own a lot of time, they arne't robots, for 20 years experience, i'd have to say its more than lacking.

[jackfrost]

Quote:
You don't breed for schutzhund, you breed for a complete dog, which is what the GSD is supposed to be.
This isn't the GSD -- this is the AWS. In your logic, breeding for the whole dog involves breeding for schutzhund?? What about the other breeds that weren't originally bred to be your opinion of the "whole dog?" They have to be schutzhund titled in order to be a complete dog too? AWSs are used mainly for therapy/service work. Where does schutzhund fall into that category? I can argue that the dog should be flying disc titled too. It's the same irrelevance.

Even the pets and people that Wolfsoul was talking about is run by the Humane society and have the test printed right on their site. They do mention that it is a public access test and the applicants do recieve a certificate of pass or failure.
No it isn't -- the Pets and People Society has nothing to do with the Okanagan Humane Society. The humane society here is small and run out of volunteers' homes -- they do not have a facility like the SPCA and they do not have any affiliation with any of the clubs or societies in the Okanagan.
I could care less about the other breeds. The GSD has a reputation. Did you miss that the past 100 times I"ve said it. They have one based on the breeding and testing practices they've followed for the past 100 years. WGSD's have done nothing to prove anything. Flying disc titled, its fun for the dog, but really doesn't test nerve strength courage or intelligence at all. A crazy neurotic mess of a dog would be better at catching flying discs than a well balanced shepherd.

Maybe you also missed Nicole's and others constant comparisons to the GSD, that is why they are being compared, i don't know how much more simply it could be spelled out.

Also when did this turn into nothing but SchH? There is HGH trials too, and those tests were used to develope the breed that is working and saving lives today. But we get the same thing back, excuses and titles mean nothing for what I do, but my dogs can do everything, I know-those arguements are weak, prove it.

[mike001]

And I will tell you something else mike'd-
HAVE YOU ever met Fred Lantings?? I HAVE! Have you ever worked with Fred Lantings?? I HAVE!! And he would be horrified at how you are twisting his words- you obviously have never worked with him, or even possible totally read/NOR UNDERSTOOD anything by him.. He states you breed for traits desired, but understanding the total working dog is capable of all sorts of work.

You are very fortunate to have met Fred Lanting in person Borzoid, I have friends who know him personnally and we all understand his writtings and his work with Shepherds. What I find truly amazing is that you have trained so many shepherds and understand them so well, why is it that you would abandon all this for a sporting breed?
Have you ever known Fred Lanting to breed a WGSD? I didn't think so. I understand his views on genetics quite well, but it appears Nicole has never read anything he wrote from the things she posts.We are only pointing out the "here and now" world, not the way it was 50 yrs ago.



Case in point- I had several litters that were out of show parents- top in the show world- litter of 9- 7 ( SEVEN) WERE natural Sch. dogs- one was totally show- and one was a pet by desire of the owner- want more examples???? I had another litter- supposed to be all Sch? police work dogs- everyone show-... Top obedience titles- but all show-... You fail to understand the total make up of the Shepherd, and seriously misunderstand the ability of a shepherd- farm dog, or police, guide dog or therapy, ... The shepherd fits it- and your narrow mindedness is why people do not allow the natural traits the dog of a all well rounded dog.. Maybe your dogs are shy at back firing cars- MINE NEVER WERE..

Case in point......If I had a GSD who failed to protect the house when someone tried to break in, I would certainly be disappointed. An intelligent dog such as the GSD who doesn't defend loved ones is not worth much in my opinion. I have never owned a shy shepherd in my life and never would. All my dogs were well socialized and friendly. If any of my dogs had shown any sign of aggression, they would not have remained in my home. We tested all our dogs for gunshots,part of our training , so a car backfiring was no big deal. I never had a Shepherd bite, show teeth, raise hackles or hide behind me etc.

[mike001]

Wolfsoul..........I don't think you're getting the point. Pets and apeople have their site on the web and you can check it out. The Humane Society does run it. I don't know the town you're in but if you have no Humane Society I guess we're discussing two different things. We do have a Humane Society but we also have a program called Petsave, they take in abandoned animals and rehome them, they have a no kill policy. But I was talking about the Humane Society's program od "Pets and People"...check out their site and read the test they give.
The only thing we are discussing is the need to have a sound, genetically proven GSD before thinking of breedng. If you breed a shy dog, would you expect to produce great working dogs? Or would you figure on having a potential candidate for service work? This is a pipe dream of the byb breeders. All GSD lovers want is for breeders to be reputable and breed only what would better the breed.
I gave you a site about service dogs to look through, obviously you didn't. The site is called "Our Community service dog forums". If I had the name at my fingertips I would give it to you but I know you can access the site by googling this. I found it last year and found it very informative, if I have time, I will go back and check it out. The site is a real eye opener for people who don't understand service dogs.

[NicoleLJ]

Mike you are funny same with you Jack. It is interesting how your posts are now both not about WS's but about me, my choice to breed, and my service dog. VERY INTERESTING. It is also interesting how this is turning into an attack strictly pointed at me instead of a discussion about WS's. And the link you gave to teh GSD forum is not a place I would suggest people go to learn about service dogs. If people want to learn about Service dogs they should visit a site strictly about servcie dogs. One of the best out there is

International Association of Assistance Dog Partners
http://www.iaadp.org

I have many other one if people are interested. It lists all the tasks of different service dogs, list legal issues, gives many many links to other information. This is where peole who are serious about learning about Service Dogs go. Not to a breed specific forum.

As for calling me a BYB that is in your little minds. I KNOW I am not. I KNOW I am doing this for the right reasons and doing this the right way. Whether you two like it or not. I am done trying to help you two learn. You two only want to attack and fight and insult. For me this discussion is over. I have stated the truth, provided proof and the people wanting to truely learn will see that. You on teh other hand just throw insults, attack, condem and provide NO proof to your statements about WS's.

So attack me some more, put down my service dog some more, call me a BYB some more. No one cares anymore. Even me. Took me a while to learn what kind of sad lives you people must be living to keep this going for a year but now instead of being upset with your constant attempts to make me look bad or make the WS look bad I only pitty you and pray that someday you can pick a new hobby that will truely help people. At least my dream(that will soon be a reality) will help people. Maybe someday you can both say the same.
Nicole

[wolfsoul]

Wolfsoul..........I don't think you're getting the point. Pets and apeople have their site on the web and you can check it out. The Humane Society does run it. I don't know the town you're in but if you have no Humane Society I guess we're discussing two different things. We do have a Humane Society but we also have a program called Petsave, they take in abandoned animals and rehome them, they have a no kill policy. But I was talking about the Humane Society's program od "Pets and People"...check out their site and read the test they give.
I know the founder of Pets and People and the screener of Pets and People and have the forms for Pets and People -- they are strictly a therapy dog program -- visiting senior homes. They have no affiliation with the humane society. You must be visitng the wrong website.


Maybe you also missed Nicole's and others constant comparisons to the GSD, that is why they are being compared, i don't know how much more simply it could be spelled out.


So? I compare Belgians to GSDs all the time. What DO you want? What is going to prove to you whatever it is you want to be proved? There is nothing that will prove anything here and you wouldn't be pleased with any "proof" anyways. What is it you want to know?

[mike001]

Nicole, to breed a shepherd is to breed the whole dog, not just something out of one's imagination. We are talking about working dogs, that goes along with breeding, or didn't you know that.
Don't forget you are in Canada, so the sites from the US don't really apply, they have their standards, we have ours. Just like they have their laws and Canada has theirs.
All we asked for were references of where your dog was trained, where it was certified, and discussed genetics. What is the real puzzle to me is how would one get along without a service dog while this dog was whelping, nursing pups and so forth. We have never heard of a service dog being bred, they are always altered before acceptance in a program.
All of these questions were simply questions, yet you call them attacks, that is what puts doubt in my mind.
You never have produced any proof or documentation, and I know you have not taken the trouble to study Fred Lanting on the whole sheperd dog
You have only posted some outdated links that are obsolete today.
And why cut down a forum on service dogs? People on the site seemed very knowledgeable to me and for the ordinairy person it would be a start to educate themselves. Unless they have changed drastically, I enjoyed the write ups immensely last year. I could go back and seek other info, they always provide useful links, or they used to. The Lion's Club of Canada have branches throughout Canada, so they will be able to answer any questions about service dogs as they promote and help all the training facilities.
When someone refuses to discuss what they are stating as proven, then to me it sounds more like someone who is just talking without knowing anything about breeding or service dogs, or the whole dog in general.
I have checked out a few sites that I found were from the US so wasn't really interested.
As for the Genetics about the working GSD like I said, Fred Lanting is a very good starting point. I'll ask again, did he ever breed WGSD's?
He breeds for the betterment of the breed I believe.
I find that reading your last post, you seem to be running away from us finding out the truth, so you accuse us of attacking you , insulting you etc., to me this is a sign of uncertainty and fear of us discovering something we shouldn't. No one is attacking or insulting anyone, we're all just interested in one thing....the working GSD as a whole dog and the standard set out by the parent clubs and the ckc and akc as to what is acceptable for a GSD.

[wolfsoul]

Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say what is a working dog? To me it sounds as if you are putting down service dogs -- declassifying them as working dogs. I'm sorry but service dogs have more need in today's society than schutzhud dogs. I want to to donate some of my future puppies to the service dog society hre and I have to be prepared to be rejected if they will not accept my puppies because they come from protection titled parents. Nicole has already stated that is something she does not want to face -- she is breeding specifically for service dogs, so she does therapy with her own dog.

You guys say you want Nicole to prove that American white shepherds can do what GSDs can do by doing schutzhund with her dog? Yet you say that she has proved nothing by showing you a "handful" of dogs. Then how is titling her ONE dog going to prove anything?

[jackfrost]

save your pity, i surely don't need it

wow, i can only hope the people that follow this thread can see the questions asked and the pity party you throw for yourself everytime you reply with zero answers.

I don't know why its so hard to follow that someone asks a question as to why GSD's are being compared to WGSD's and you've been doing it all along, suddenly we're picking on you.

I don't think anyone not proving their breeding stock should be breeding working dogs PERIOD. If you don't have titles, or have a certified service dog or any of that in your pedigrees, than you are nothing more than a BYB, if that criteria happens to fit you as well, which it apparently does, that really isn't my fault is it?

How exactly do you want me to prove that WGSD's aren't doing everything and more that GSD's are doing? Sure there are a few that are, but the vast majority aren't proving anything, again I don't have to prove a negative. You said you have contact with breeders that have all these police dogs, link them. You have contact with Schutzhund clubs that say they aren't rare and they compete more than we think and do very well or better than GSD's, well give me a link. Two links to the same dogs from 30 years ago doesn't cut it, sorry. That'd be like me showing you a map of the 1700's and saying look England rules most of the world. well yeah it did, a few hundred years ago. I guess that isn't a good analogy cause England actually did what i'm claiming. Very few white's ever have.

you can also keep your little mind comments to yourself. I find it rather funny that you haven't done any discussing yourself for quite a few posts other than hurl insults and try and make yourself feel mentally superior. Be careful that you aren't doing what you claim others are, its in poor taste.

My sad life isn't very sad, i hate to tell you i'm quite happy. As for keeping this going for a year??? time goes by a little quickly for you apparently as i've only been here for a month or two.

[jackfrost]

Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to say what is a working dog? To me it sounds as if you are putting down service dogs -- declassifying them as working dogs. I'm sorry but service dogs have more need in today's society than schutzhud dogs. I want to to donate some of my future puppies to the service dog society hre and I have to be prepared to be rejected if they will not accept my puppies because they come from protection titled parents. Nicole has already stated that is something she does not want to face -- she is breeding specifically for service dogs, so she does therapy with her own dog.

You guys say you want Nicole to prove that American white shepherds can do what GSDs can do by doing schutzhund with her dog? Yet you say that she has proved nothing by showing you a "handful" of dogs. Then how is titling her ONE dog going to prove anything?
Haven't we been thru this before. Yeah, there is a need for service dogs, nobody really "needs" a schutzhund dog. BUT the reason the GSD and all its glory and multi uses and guard, SAR, drug, leader of the blind, capabilities is because the breeding stock was tested and tested and proven and proven before it could be used. THAT IS THE POINT. Schutzhund is a proving ground. When you have dogs that don't have a title in the pedigree for 5,6 or more generations and you have not proven your breeding stock either, what exactly does that show??

I wouldn't be worried about people rejecting your puppies you donate because they're from bite trained parents. That's rediculous. any lower drive puppies that have good temperments will not be turned away. You see testing and proving working stock has allowed us to have a breed that consistently produces dogs that can do anything. Take 10 litters and you'll find a good number of dogs suitable to do any job we need from those litters. That's what testing and proving our stock has done. From partol and military work, bot scent detection and leaders of the blind.

Her getting a title on her dog and proving it as a working dog would do a lot. She'd be proving her working stock. a dog from 30 years ago means nothing. She or anyone else making these claims of how WGSD's are healthier, have more intelligence and more drive could hold some water if she'd title her ONE dog, and others would do the same. They could show consistency in their litters, in their breeding stock, just like the GSD's have done. (and I'm not talking AKC one's that also have proven nothing, sure you get a few here and there that can do something, but not many)

You can compare belgians to GSD's I see them working and proving themselves all the time. I'd be happy to hear your comparisons, i'll give you mine. I have something to compare them too, cause i've seen them and people are proving their working stock, they aren't even in the same situation as the WGSD's where they make all claims and have no proof.

[mike001]

Wolfsoul, where we come from, the Humane society runs that program, so no big deal. Every town, city or province runs their programs accordingly. We are far from putting service dogs down, we are just saying that if you own just a pet and want to breed you should know all about the dog you are breeding beforehand.
You keep saying Therapy Dog, then you change to Service Dog. The two are as different as night and day, so I don't really know what you mean. Nicole said she was breeding for Service dogs, not Therapy dogs. and she has not mentioned doing therapy work with her dog at all. I think you are jumbling all the posts.
Your dog needs to be certified to be a therapy dog. she shies away from answering who certified her dog. She shies away from discussing Genetics. This is one of the most important aspects of breeding. Anyone can put two dogs together and have pups, that's what we are trying to show.
I gave a good source of information ....Fred Lanting, if you really want to educate yourself, read his sites. They are not the easiest thing to understand and it does make for long reading, but well worth it.
Why would I be putting Service dogs down? Or Therapy dogs? I have a therapy dog here. I wouldn't be afraid to post the date it was certified, etc.
By the way, the site on Pets and People do explain the requirements for a therapy dog, I was wondering if you bothered reading it?

[NicoleLJ]

Mike I think you need glasses. I have discussed genetics. In fact I even provided a link toteh White Shepherd genetics progect. Also I have told you when you asked me the first time. Sheena is not certified with a program because she is not program trained. Did you under stand that this time? There is NO law in Canada or the States that says a service dog has to be program trained. NONE NANA Nothing. As for doing without her I won't be. I will be staying home when she is pregnant and has her pups. She still does all teh same work at home. We just don't leave the house. Which for someone like me is a vaction. I have answered all your questions OVer and OVER and OVER agian. You are the one that chooses to ignore the responses. Which is why I am sick of answering you two. You keep asking the same questions and we keep giving you answers and proof and you keep ignoring it. It has gotten boring. You sound like my two year old when he asks a question over and over agian. At least he has an excuse for not remebering. What is yours?

Wolfsoul let them have this thread. Tehy will never listen. no answer is good enough for them.
Nicole

[wolfsoul]

You must be thinking of a different Pets and People -- the Pets and People I'm talking about is completely local -- it has not branched out into other areas. It was founded by Marjorie Rutherford and her groenendael. Yes I've read the requirements, I have the forms -- I will possibly go through the screeing with my Solo when he is old enough. Visa wouldn't pass as the screening is done at the vet's office and it's the one place she is not herself (she had parvo as a puppy and spent several weeks in intensive care -- been terrified of the place since :( ).

If you look at some of her old posts you'll see she says her dog is a service dog, and she isn't certfified -- all of the therapy dogs I know are not certified either. Like I said before, my dog's mother was a therapy dog with only her Canadian championship, and my other dog's grandfather with only his Companion Dog Excellent -- they did not need certifications

Edit: whoops, meant to say service dog.

I attached a couple pictures of my boy's grandfather, Kestevne's Phantom CDX, doing his therapy work. :)

[NicoleLJ]

Wolfsoul just so you know Sheena is a PSD Psychiatric Service Dog. She is not a threapy dog though she could do the job with ease. Just wanted to clear that up.
Nicole

[jackfrost]

Wolfsoul just so you know Sheena is a PSD Psychiatric Service Dog. She is not a threapy dog though she could do the job with ease. Just wanted to clear that up.
Nicole
Then PROVE IT, more words no substance, its a common thing with you isn't it? Prove your breeding stock. Talk is cheap and that's all you have. Good luck. You can say you've answered and given proof over and over again, apparently you believe yourself. Meanwhile the questions still get ignored and skirted with pity parties you like to throw for yourself. I"m still waiting for those links. How come I have a feeling i'll just get more words and baseless claims? Where's the emoticon for head banging on desk or wall

[mike001]

Wolfsoul you are still in the dark re aservice dog and a therapy dog.Go to Canines with a Cause. This is a program that is also in Ottawa, called CWAC. It might shed some light on what we are discussing. It describes the steps one has to take for obtaining a service dog. The matching, training, cost, certification etc
You might understand better what a service dog is. As for psd's they are not recognized in Canada unless assessed by a training team and the owner has medical references to uphold the need for one. Only a physician or psychiatrist is allowed to sign the necessary documents. As for the US I can't speak for their laws. But you will note in the CWAC that it states that an owner's pet dog is not used to train as a service dog. It also states that the dogs need at least basic obedience.
Nice to say, oh, my dog could do that real easy....but if you've never done it in the ring, then you really don't know if your dog has the courage to work under stressful conditions.
Did you bother to read Fred Lanting's sites? It doesn't sound like youdid or you would know what we are talking about when we say "GENETICS", and it's not old things from another era.

[NicoleLJ]

I love Canines with a Cause. Great CHARITY. There are many training facilites for servcie dogs in Canada. There is only one type of service dog that is recognized and protected throughout Canada. That is dogs for the blind. Our laws here are unfortunately way behind the times. But many of us, including myself are trying to change that. There is no law that all service dogs must be registered. Simply because there is no governing body that covers all service dogs in canada. I hope this helps to clear up misconceptions.




The Canadian Provinces


The Canadian Provinces independently have their own laws that define the rights of disabled persons. Generally, there have been two approaches. Some provinces have a Blind Persons’ Rights Act. These define, fairly specifically, where the disabled person with a dog may go, important considerations in housing, what happens if these rights are violated, and any penalties associated with them. Trainers rights or requirements, licenses or fees, identification requirements, and injury to the dog may also be included. In this respect, some provinces have statutes that are quite similar to those found in the United States. The provinces that have taken this approach include Alberta, British Columbia, Labrador, Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Ontario, and Quèbec. While this type of law was originally written to accommodate blind persons, a number of the provinces have broadened their scope through amendments that extend these rights to deaf or hearing impaired and disabled persons.

Another approach is seen in the Human Rights Acts. The Human Rights approach covers a broader issue of discrimination in a much wider section of society. For example, Manitoba includes in its law concern for discrimination in these categories:

(a) ancestry, including colour and perceived race;
(b) nationality or national origin;
(c) ethnic background or origin;
(d) religion or creed, or religious belief, religious association or religious activity;
(e) age;
(f) sex, including pregnancy, the possibility of pregnancy, or circumstances related to pregnancy;
(g) gender-determined characteristics or circumstances other than those included in clause (f);
(h) sexual orientation;
(i) marital or family status;
(j) source of income;
(k) political belief, political association or political activity;
(l) physical or mental disability or related characteristics or circumstances, including reliance on a dog guide or other animal assistant, a wheelchair, or any other remedial appliance or device.

Frequently, in the provinces that rely primarily on this approach, the word “dog” appears only in the definition section of the law. All provinces have a Human Rights Act, but the provinces using this approach to the exclusion of more specific laws for disabled persons, include Manitoba, New Brunswick, Northwest Territories, Prince Edward Island, Saskatchewan, and Yukon.


So as you can see until Canada has a unified standard like the ADA things will remain up to the provinces to decide. It has taken a long time for mobility assisant dogs to be accepted. Autism support dogs are still not accepted and do not share all teh same rigths as a guide dog. Many of us are trying to change this. Canada needs to continue to expaned in its learnign and accepting of all service dogs. Untill then only Guide dog users have complete and full access and rights across Canada.

Here are some great links to other facilities that train service dogs. All are charities. None of them control the whether a service dog is a service dog. Each is different in it's criteria. But agian there is no law in Canada saying a service dog has to be a facility trained dog. Service dogs can be Owner trained.

National Service Dog Inc: http://www.nsd.on.ca/
Pacific Assistance Dogs http://www.padsdogs.org/
MIRA: http://www.mira.ca/
Western Guide and Assistance Dog Society: http://www.guidedog.ca/who_we_are.html
Lions Foundation of Canada Dogguides: http://www.dogguides.com/doghome.htm
Nicole