I need help

[Samantha Puppy]

Some of you may remember my problems with my cats that began last July with them pooping just outside of their litter boxes. (Actually, I say "them" because there are four total and I'm not sure who's doing it. NOT all 4.) Nothing we did stopped it - we removed the covers. Still went outside. We tried scooping 3 times a day. Still went outside. We changed litter. Still went outside. It also became not just poop but pee outside too (on carpet, so that area of the carpet is RUINED). It FINALLY stopped after Aidan was about 6 weeks old and lasted about 6 weeks before it started back up again... this time in earnest.

Only now they're not going *just* outside the litter boxes (which are in the basement). At least one of them (I've only caught Kimi red-handed, so I'm not sure if it's just her or if someone else is doing it too) has now started peeing in our kitchen. NOTHING keeps her from doing so. Not Feliway, not bleaching the area, nothing.

I don't know what else to do. I'm at my wit's end. It was bad enough when it was just contained to the basement but it's spreading now. Aidan is 5 1/2 months old and will be crawling within the next few months. I can't have him crawling in cat waste! And who knows where they'll start going next!

I LOVE MY CATS. I love all my animals. But I can't deal with this problem with a newborn in the house, and more children to come in the near future! I could never take them to the shelter any time, but especially during kitten season! I burst into tears at the thoughtof letting them go, even if I knew they'd be going to a good family, but I really don't know what else to do. We've followed advice here, we've followed advice from their vet. NOTHING WORKS. I work from 8am-2pm and when I come home, Aidan takes up a majority of my time. If no preventative measures we've taken have worked so far, I can't just follow them around all evening to stop whoever is doing this stuff in the act!

What do I do? Can anyone help me? What would you do in my predicament (new baby, ongoing cat problem with NO solutions and it's getting worse)? This has been going on for the best part of a year and it's just getting worse. I'm so upset and frustrated, I don't know what to do. I love my cats (I think it's the girls) but I just can't deal with this anymore. Help!!!!

[catfamily]

And the vet's ruled out sickness?Gosh that's so horrible if it's behavior habits.If they were sick it would be easier.Medicine and then all better.But behavior problems I wouldn't know how to deal with it.Their are some great people on pettalk that know a lot about it.I hope they can help.How about some stress meds from the vets?

[allmypets615]

Have you tried cat attract? It's a litter box aid. Maybe a bigger enclosed box? I haven't read your former posts, so please forgive any repeat suggestions! :)
Maybe crate or put the offender into a spare room until they can prove they can have run of the house.
Missy

[catmandu]

Thats Very Sad As That Is The Number One Reason That Cats And Dogs Are Brought To Shelters.
And Because They Have To Inform Potential Adopters These Pets Are Often Pts.
I Wish I Had A Solution, But All I Have Are Prayers.

[Samantha Puppy]

Thats Very Sad As That Is The Number One Reason That Cats And Dogs Are Brought To Shelters.
And Because They Have To Inform Potential Adopters These Pets Are Often Pts.


I know... that's why I absolutely cannot do that. I've tried everything I can, sickness has been ruled out, but I just can't have them peeing and pooping wherever they please and having my child(ren) crawling around in it. I am not throwing in the towel yet, I don't think, but if anyone here would be willing to possibly take 2 of my 4 if it just doesn't end, that's about the only situation I'd be comfortable with... And even the thought of that brings me to tears. I just don't know what else to do.

[Cataholic]

First, I would keep in mind that you are probably at the most hormonal, tiring, exhaustive phase of motherhood. Not to minimize any of your problems, but, "this too shall pass".

Next, it does sound behavioral. Not medical, assuming the ruling out of anything medical was fairly recent. How many boxes, how are they situated, what kind of litter, ect. While maybe 1 year ago your cats didn't care what/when/why/how, maybe they do now.

There is a book out that talks about cat's bathroom behaviours. I can't recall the name of it, but, I read it and it was insightful. Maybe you can google for it?

As for Aiden crawling...well, you have dogs, cats, and I presume you wear your shoes in your house? Cat poop is probably the least of his worrys. Not saying it is pleasant, and certainly not desirable, but, I think working up to an artifical deadline (Aiden crawling) is just putting more stress on you. Who knows, maybe he will be like Jonah, and not crawl, just walk?

[Samantha Puppy]

Next, it does sound behavioral. Not medical, assuming the ruling out of anything medical was fairly recent. How many boxes, how are they situated, what kind of litter, ect. While maybe 1 year ago your cats didn't care what/when/why/how, maybe they do now.

Who knows, maybe he will be like Jonah, and not crawl, just walk?

I thought of that (that they didn't care then but do now). But changing litter/boxes/etc. makes me nervous because what if it upsets the cats that AREN'T doing this and causes them to start? Or what if it wasn't the problem at all and then I have four upset kitties?

As for Aidan (everyone does that! :)) not crawling, I actually have a feeling that he'll be doing that for longer than the average baby. He might have some ankle issues, plus his eye issues may make him feel unstable on his feet. Not sure and he's nowhere near crawling as he still gets super-pissed when you put him on his stomach, but still... cat poop just outside the litter boxes in the basement was one thing. Cat pee on the main floor is another. *sigh* I'm not putting deadlines on myself, but I don't want to fool myself either.

Maybe the girls don't like me. May it's me they're acting out against. Maybe they'd be happier somewhere else. I don't know. I'm open to anything now, after a year of dealing with this. I just don't know.

[AbbyMom]

I'm so sorry you have to go through this.

Have you ever read the "Unabridged Guide to Litterbox Problems" from Cats International? I keep copies at the shelter and hand them out to people just like you who love their cats but still need to take action.

If you have not, read it before you go to bed tonight for ideas:)

http://www.catsinternational.org/articles/housesoiling/index.html

I agree with Cataholic that it sounds behavioral.

Since I don't remember your posts from July, can you repeat/share some info with us so we can help?

How many litter boxes do you have?

What type of litter? Do they all use the same litter? Do you use scented litter? I've met quite a few people that tell me their cat will only use XXX type of litter (fill in the blank..."Yesterday's News" or "Pine" "Sweatscoop" or clay...)

What depth of litter? Are all litter boxes the same? (One of my fosters hated it more than 1" deep because she couldn't stand the sinking feeling beneath her feet. My two girls now prefer to build sand castles ;) )

Have you tried separating the litter boxes so someone could have a little privacy?

Is it possible one of your cats is harassing the others while using the litter box?

Are they located near anything noisy or scary?

I apologize if you've already been through this, but it sounds like you need to make sure you've covered everything.

Finally, are you willing to consider "drastic" litter box actions? My little RB Quasar, after some stress in her life, would only urinate on carpeting. The vet said some cats just prefer the way it feels. Anyway, we gave her cut up carpet squares in the litterbox to solve the problem. Of course, I had to constantly launder the carpet squares, but the rest of the house was safe.

We just need to figure out what's going on inside your cats' heads!

[Samantha Puppy]

How many litter boxes do you have?
We have two. I know the rule of thumb is one box per cat plus one extra but we started out with just two cats and the two boxes worked fine for them. Then we got the additional two cats to bring the total to four and didn't put out additional litter boxes until they'd been with us for about two weeks. We put out two more boxes but none of them used them. At all. So we figured they were fine with the two original ones.

Quick recap. We've had our two boys since October 2004. We got the girls (on a whim) April 2005. I was four weeks pregnant when we got the girls (didn't know it yet). From April '05 to July '05, things were fine. Then Josh and I took the boxes outside to clean and disinfect and Josh decided to put them in another location (just inside a doorframe from where they had been, so it's not like they were far away. We showed all the cats the new location. And then the pooping outside the litter box began, where the litter boxes had been. Nothing we did stopped it, so we moved the boxes back to that location thinking that's where they liked it. The pooping outside the litter box continued. We took them to the vet. They all got clean bills of health. We tried Feliway, different litter, cleaning it out often, not cleaning it very often, different depths of litter. The pooping outside continued until around February '06 and stopped, amazingly enough, for about 6-7 weeks. Then I shampooed the area of the rug in preparation for my son's baptism and within hours, there were several different poops on the carpet.

What type of litter? Do they all use the same litter? Do you use scented litter?
We use FreshStep. It's in both litter boxes. I'm not sure if it's scented or not. We just use the FreshStep with the blue crystals in it. Always have.

What depth of litter? Are all litter boxes the same?
The litter boxes are both the same - the domed "booda" ones with the "steps" going up into it. We've also tried taking the tops off in case they didn't like it. Didn't stop anything.

Have you tried separating the litter boxes so someone could have a little privacy?
They're domed, so they have privacy. And moving them is what originally began this mess so no, we haven't moved them since putting them back where they were.

Is it possible one of your cats is harassing the others while using the litter box?
I suppose it's possible, but not that I've noticed. As I said above, the boxes are domed and there is only room in there for one cat at a time, so there is limited means of harrassment.

Are they located near anything noisy or scary?
Nope, they're in a quiet alcove in our basement.

I apologize if you've already been through this, but it sounds like you need to make sure you've covered everything.
No worries at all. I appreciate the help.

Finally, are you willing to consider "drastic" litter box actions?
I guess we will if we need to, but you'll have to forgive me if I sound skeptical of anything that may be suggested. I just feel like we've tried it all and nothing is working.

That said, the pooping (and peeing) immediately outside of the litter box area is annoying. What has me extremely concerned is that Kimi (at least - she is the only one I've caught in the act) has begun to pee in the kitchen, which on an entirely different level of the house. It's spreading. What if it spreads to the living room so that carpet gets ruined? Or our bedroom, so that carpet gets ruined? I hate that the bit of carpet in the basement is ruined but that's not in a heavily trafficked area and out of view to guests completely. The living room isn't. Our bedroom isn't. Aidan's room isn't.

I'm just very, very frustrated. Kimi didn't pee there this morning but that's because I sprayed Chlorox bleach there and some orange-scented cleaner and left it there so it was wet. But I can't do that all the time - the floor in the kitchen is pergo and leaving it constantly wet makes it buckle and bubble (we learned that from a leaky fridge).

[emily_the_spoiled]

I know that Jen has been through this a couple of time and has "re-trained" her culprits. Maybe do a search for one of her threads or send her a PM asking her advice...

Can you have Kimi re-checked for a UTI (just in case)?

[Pawsitive Thinking]

Could it be their way of reacting to Aidan coming in and monopolising Meowmie?

[Samantha Puppy]

Could it be their way of reacting to Aidan coming in and monopolising Meowmie?

I thought that too. But it started last July, when I was only 3 months pregnant. And then it stopped earlier this year for almost two months - after he was born. So I don't know! :(

[AbbyMom]

When a cat pees someplace like a kitchen, they're trying to tell you something. It could be that they don't like Aidan, and I hope not. Let's hope it's something else.

What you need to do is make the litter box a preference over anyplace else in the house, regardless of their issues. I don't mean to make this sound simple, because it isn't.

Here are my suggestions:

First, some cats DESPISE the smell of disinfectants and perfumes. I learned this the hard way. One cleaning with a disinfectant and I had pee all over. I noticed in your recap below that the troubles first started when you cleaned and disinfected the litter boxes. The trouble started up again when you shampooed the carpeting.

So, buy a new litter box without a dome, and move it apart from the others, where the scent of the other litter boxes cannot be detected nor the smell of the carpet shampoo.

In the new litter box, start trying different litter types.

Try UNSCENTED clay litter. Some cats really hate Fresh Step with crystals. One of my foster cats would not go near it. I know your cats used Fresh Step successfully before, but cats can be just like people and change with age. (I didn't used to eat cooked carrots. :) )

If the clay litter doesn't do it, try the Pine. If that doesn't do it, try the Sweatscoop. Try the generic unscented scoopable from your grocery store. (This last one was the only one that my princess foster would use and you might want to try it first as it's probably less expensive.)

You mentioned that you tried different litter types before, but try again with a focus on the unscented.

I hope this helps. These are options I know from personal experience and also shared stories from volunteering that they sometimes work.

Thank you for working with your kitties and giving them a chance.

Good luck.

[Samantha Puppy]

Okay, so I covered over the area she had been peeing in so she couldn't any more. I thought, for some reason that if it were behavioral, she wouldn't want to pee anywhere, just in that one specific spot. Not 5 minutes ago, I caught her peeing in another location in the kitchen. Would this be an indication of anything to you cat experts? I caught while she was peeing, yelled "KIMI!!!!" and stamped my feet, but she didn't stop until I swatted her with a brochure I was holding.

Any thoughts?

[Catty1]

Well, there's the unscented litter mentioned recently. Give her an unscented box as an option while covering up the usual place. Also, Moosmom (I think it's her) SWEARS by a really good and inexpensive pet psychic. Maybe PM her and see if she has the info.

Maybe she does it for the attention?

hugs
Catty1

[catfamily]

My Vet told me about a woman who specializes in problem Behavior in pets Diagnosis and treatments.
She's here in Maine.She charged me 30.00 for every half hour on the phone.(I only needed 1 half hour...we talked fast)She's very good.You call her,make an appointment,then send her a check or whatever how you pay and then she sets a time for you to call and the half hour begins.You tell her everything and she talks quick to answer so no money is wasted.She helped my cats in the past for different things.She talks to people all over the world she said.
Tell her Carla O'Donnell of Casco Maine sent you from Pettalk.Or petoftheday.com

Here's her info:

Karen K. Cambell
43 Cumberland Ave.
Portland,ME 04101
tel(207)761-4785
tel(207)773-9594
fax(207)773-4452

I'm sorry I didn't mention it before.I have so many things going on here that I forgot about her.She's very nice.

[Killer Kitten]

I made myself a cat room. I took a spare bedroom, ripped out the carpeting and installed a laminate flooring and those rubberized institutinal type baseboards.

Then I made sure the screens in the windows were very secure. I ripped out the closet and installed shelves they could climb from one to another to easily, with a ramp leading from an opening in the lower shelf to the floor. I painted the walls with a high-gloss and very washable paint.

I removed all of the furniture. The only furniture in there is a pair of cat trees, a washable cat cubby that holds 4 cat beds and 5 litter pans. I bought a bunch of washable cat beds and I change them out and wash them when they become soiled. Lastly, I replaced the bedroom door with a screen door so the cats can see and interact with us. I put a latch on the door at 'adult height', so children can only get into that room while supervised.

I bought a 'dining station' to hold their water bowls and one of those large metal 'puppy dish' feeders for their dry food. We put down canned food twice a day in disposable dishes, and just throw the dishes away when the cats are finished with their canned food.

The cats feel very secure in their room, and I no longer worry about accidental escapes when I have a party or any work being done on the house. I also have the marvelous benefit of being able to enjoy my (way too many) cats without constantly finding unpleasant 'surprises' all over my house and trying to figure out who did it.

Don't discount the notion of a special 'cat room' out of hand. It's been a life saver for our household and our cats actually seem healthier and happier since acquiring their own territory.

[Samantha Puppy]

Appreciate the thought, but we have no place for a cat room. We have a two bedroom house, both of which are occupied by humans, a living room, a kitchen, an office, and storage space in the basement that is filled.

Update: Kimi hasn't peed in the kitchen since Wednesday. We upped the amount of attention she was getting and since then, no pee. We had an appointment for her this morning so we even put out little receptacles in the kitchen that she'd peed in before... and nothing. If she does it again, I'll take the sample in immediately and get her an appointment... 'til then, maybe extra attention is all she wanted! (Which makes me mad - it's not like we ignored her before!!

[Catty1]

Awwww....hope you can enjoy the extra purrs and hugs...and she may just need the extra assurance for a while, til she feels more secure.

Hope this keeps up!

Catty1

[flip195]

Try changing to an uncovered litter box, cats will harass each other in the covered ones, they wait outside the box and ambush the one using the litter box, . I have seen my cats do it.
If all else fails get the largest crate you can find and confine the offenders (one cat per crate) in there with a litter box bed food and water for a week as a last resort. also go to http://www.zeroodorstore.com/?OVRAW=%22zero%20odor%22&OVKEY=zero%20odor&OVMTC=standard and buy a bottle of this stuff, i use it and it works unlike natures miracle and some of the other stuff. Also get some cat attract litter and mix it with the regular stuff.



http://www.aarrff.org/images/wwwaarrfforg.gif (http://www.aarrff.org/)

[Samantha Puppy]

Try changing to an uncovered litter box, cats will harass each other in the covered ones, they wait outside the box and ambush the one using the litter box, . I have seen my cats do it.
If all else fails get the largest crate you can find and confine the offenders (one cat per crate) in there with a litter box bed food and water for a week as a last resort. also go to http://www.zeroodorstore.com/?OVRAW=%22zero%20odor%22&OVKEY=zero%20odor&OVMTC=standard and buy a bottle of this stuff, i use it and it works unlike natures miracle and some of the other stuff. Also get some cat attract litter and mix it with the regular stuff.



http://www.aarrff.org/images/wwwaarrfforg.gif (http://www.aarrff.org/)

We tried uncovering the boxes. The problems still didn't stop, the litter went all over the place, and our dog snagged a couple poops and ate them and got sick, like she did before we got the covered boxes. They're a necessity - thank God taking the top off didn't solve the problem.

I may try the odor remover and the cat attract, though Kimi still hasn't peed in the kitchen since Thursday. No poops outside the litter box by anyone else this weekend either. :D

[Catty1]

WOOHOO!

Just keep on hugging that baby! (SOOO hard to do, I know! LOL)

Catty1