FOR CARRIE

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Guess what Carrie, I don't know if you remember the problem I have with Daisy about never coming when I call her. Well I took your advice and I have been "looking her straight in the eye" so to speak, and call her and lo and behold she comes to me. It must be "that" look. I can't believe it, for three years when I called her she would always walk the other way. See I'm not hopeless after all. I'm listening.
Thanks for the great advice
Jackie :)

[carrie]

Yeeehaaaa!! Well done you! Now you are talking her language!!
I'm really pleased for you, what a breakthrough! Give her a fuss from me and keep it up - the sky is the limit!

[thelmalu99]

Hmmm...
I wonder if the same holds true for cats. Elvis is a little rebel and if I call him, he comes if and when it pleases him. ;)

[carrie]

It doesn't matter too much what you say at all it is ALL in how you say it. You say a lot more to your dog than you think you do and the bits that aren't spoken are probably the most important. The position of your body, how tense you are, level of eye contact and type of contact, even your heart and breathing rate will have an effect on what the dog understands. Tone and level of voice are crucial too.

Cats....well...there is one language that has passed me by!

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Hi Carrie, it's me again.
Daisy is doing pretty well, I still get her attention when calling her sometimes she looks right then left then at me and will slowly come to me by way of around the coffee table, or pick up a toy on the way but eventually she comes if I persist. So we are working well on that.
Now Perry, we got him at eight months old and was being trained to be a show dog so we don't know what his background was. He is well behaved, will sit, come, stay, lie down, sit up, crawl and shake paws, BUT, he hates kids and other dogs except our sons two Schnauzers and even when we take him up there he has to down the male dog for about 10 minutes. Daisy who is usually docile will jump on the females neck no matter what I tell her. After about 10 minutes they all get along. Getting back to Perry, they get to jump on the couch in the window and see the kids going to school and he will always grab a plush toy, jump up and growl and shake the toy in the window. Daisy just barks. No matter who comes to our door including our grandkids we are afraid he will go after them. We took him to a behaviorist and she just put a large stuffed dog and told my husband to walk up and say nice puppy, well Perry is not stupid and he knew it was a stuffed toy., so we gave that up. They won't take him in obedience class because he is aggresive. I thought that was what they were teaching, but guess not. At home he is very loving, very possessive of my husband, if he is petting Daisy he will push her out of the way. He is very loving to us and our family who come over all the time. He is very loving to Daisy, he will let her have any toy, his food whatever she wants to do but if she picks up a toy on her own, he will take it away from her. In turn she licks his ears and cares for him. Are they a pack of two?
I'm not quite sure what to do about his aggresiveness, we did try to adopt a little Schnauzer and I know we did the wrong thing by the people bringing the dog here, but Perry acted like nothing was going on then he would suddenly attack the dog, he did this four times so we gave it up. We have to be very careful when we take him out in public which is not very often, I know we should have socialized him, but we are mostly at home people and don't go out that often ourselves except to take trips and they go with us. What do you or anyone else thinks? We love Perry very much and we know he loves us, maybe he is just overly protective.

[carrie]

OK Jackie I just need to know a couple more things that you've probably told me before so bear with me.
How old is Perry now and has he been neutered? How long have you had him? Is he ever aggressive to Daisy, you or over food?
Are they left on their own for any length of time on a regular basis? Do they have their own beds?
Now the all time favourite.....do the dogs sleep with you?
Thanks, I'll check back later.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Hi Carrie, I'll bet this is a stickler :D
Perry is three and he is neutered.
We have had him for approx two and a half years.
Most always never aggresive with Daisy except if he get over excited, but never nips her he takes a plush toy in his mouth and will shake it really hard, maybe bump her with it.
He is not aggresive with his food at all, will let Daisy in his bowl and eat with her if she wants to.
Not aggresive at all with me
Perry likes to go off by himself and will take a nap in his crate and at night he sleeps in his crate, one night I left his door open to his crate thinking he could get a drink etc, but he whined until I closed the door to the crate and then slept all night.
Whoops I forgot one, yes they stay outside on the patio when we go out. They each have a dog house, but many times they will be in the same house, Perry in the back and Daisy in the front.
I know, I know Carrie, Daisy sleeps with me. :D :D :D
Any advice will be appreciated. Thanks
Jackie

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Jackie ]

[Logan]

Hehehe!! Jackie...I know about tiptoeing when asking Carrie a question! :eek: I remember when I first started chatting with her about Honey's "issues" and she said "DON'T LET HER SLEEP IN THE BED"!!! LOL!! Carrie, I think you have a new fan in Jackie.... And I'm glad you're giving her good advice!

To know Carrie is to LOVE her!!! And I do!!! And I can't say it enough. I'm SO glad you're back, Carrie!!!

Logan

[Logan]

By the way, Jackie...

Honey sleeps with Helen whenever she wants to! LOL!!! I have a new bed and its just too high!

Logan

[jackiesdaisy1935]

I know what Carrie will say about Daisy sleeping with me, but Daisy will never give that up we will have to make a trade, Daisy will mind and come to me when I call and I will let her sleep with me. :D :D :D
Jackie

[carrie]

Oh dear, you are sooooo not going to like this!
I will reply properly to you by email and then you decide in private if you want to follow my advice or post my suggestions on the board!

[carrie]

email has been sent, good luck

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Thanks Carrie, got your e.mail and you are right on the mark, we are both going to try to work on your very good advice.
Maybe you should post it here for everyone who may have the same problem.
Thank you so much for your help.
Jackie

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Hi Jackie,
Here goes.....

Let's get the sleeping thing sorted and out the way. It really amazes me that so many people find this a major point of living with a dog!
I am sure you are aware of the basic pack structure - Alpha being in charge etc. Problems can arise when owners see themselves as Alpha in a exclusive relationship with each dog. In your situation Perry is being very tough and macho. He is displaying to Daisy with soft toys to impress her with his aggression and ferocity and she seems pretty willing to accept this situation - everyone is happy. Daisy is happy to follow his lead and help him get rid of the kids that walk past the house and generally do what he wants and Perry is happy that all that macho b******t worked and he is top dog.
To help Perry, and Daisy, to keep their relationship happy and the household in general more peaceful you must reinforce Perry's view of the world as far as his relationship with Daisy goes. If he is secure then he will have no need to display to keep the status quo. The more dominant dog, by right, always has the best sleeping place. As Daisy has this position it undermines Perry and puts pressure on him to reassert himself.
By subtle differences in your behaviour towards the dogs as a pack rather than to each as individual a lot of this pressure can be taken from the dogs. (Not having dogs on the beds or furniture is my number one tip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) Greeting Perry first, allowing him through the door before Daisy and putting his food down before Daisy's all will help establish the pack as a stable unit where everyone is secure and feels safe.

Perry seems to lack basic self control - this is not the end of the world and can be taught if you are willing to put the time into it and be totally consistent.

Let's start with barking and going loopy when there is someone at the door. Perry just doesn't realise that there is another way of coping with life at the moment. He needs to be shown this in a very calm and controlled way. (Two of you working on this would be great.) Let me know if this is something you would like to work on, it is very succesful and rewarding.

Barking at the kids going past is a very rewarding behaviour for Perry. It is fun, exciting, Daisy supports him and it works - the kids go away! You, again, must show him that there is another way to deal with this. As soon as he starts to bark at kids passing remove Daisy and yourselves from the room. Stay away for at least three minutes after he has stopped and totally ignore him when you come back in. (This will not stop him as it is still a self rewarding behaviour but it gives him the message that nobody in the pack is going to pay any attention or help in any way.) When you have resumed what you were doing before you left the room and as long as Perry is not asking for attention call him over, ask him to sit and then reward him with loads of praise. Do this EVERY time for four to five days.
Now you want to actually stop him barking and you have shown him what will get a reward from you (if his soft toys are his favourite thing the reward could be that you throw one for him - NOT tugging it with him). Leave his lead on when you are in the house with him (this will also help any bad associations he has with it). This means you can take control without yelling or touching him. As soon as he starts to bark remove Daisy from the room and gently take up the lead. You will need to put some pressure on it to encourage him to respond and use a very calm voice. use the same commands that you used previously -"Perry, come." If he doesn't respond increase the pressure on the lead and repeat. The first few times you will probably get no response until the kids are out of sight but you must carry on until he comes to you. It is VITAL that you remain calm and keep your voice at the same level no matter how long it takes! When he comes to you let the lead go slack and tell him to sit. He must maintain this position for two to three minutes before the reward is given. Even as you praise him stay calm. Eventualy he will be coming to your voice before the kids are out of sight - introduce food treats if you like to use them. It will get better and better - keep a timed record of how long he takes to respond so you can see your progress. It really does work and you will be so proud of yourself and Perry. Have a go and let me know how it goes and then with this success we will go onto his meeting other dogs and people.

You are brilliant to love your dogs enough to want the best for them and he will be a much happier boy when he realises that life isn't just about worry and anxiety!

This is the great advice that I got from Carrie, and I thought if anyone else had the same problem maybe they would benefit from her words of wisdom. We are going to see if we can help Perry take his rightful place as Mr. Alpha. :D :D :D

[carrie]

Oh No!!!!
Not as Alpha!!!!!!!
Just as one step above Daisy!!!!
YOU are Alpha, you are the one that makes the decisions - YOU remove the support of the pack when he is being silly - YOU show him how to deal with the stresses in life in a different way - YOU give him no attention until he does it YOUR way!!!
You only allow him to have a subtle difference in status to Daisy, that is all he is trying for at the moment.
Every little thing I have suggested you do is designed to make him feel settled, take the worry out of Daisy's life and carefully and without conflict set YOU and your husband (what is his name? I feel awful saying, "The Husband!" all the time!") as the only people in the house who have half a chance of being clever enough to think of being the Alpha!

In wild canids it is a position that few even aspire to hold! If you have a dog like this then don't call me!!
Naturally ,though, when the dog sees an opening, a situation where, for a brief time he can lead the behaviour of the pack most will take the chance. They will then expect others to take control of feeding and normal life.

This is a system that works and that makes all members of the pack feel safe and secure.

The basic lessons that owners can come away with are these.......

You have to be the Alpha

All other humans in the home have to be above the dog...many people think that this means kids should train, hit, torment or show how good the dog is with kids by letting the kids play tug of war with the dog

You have to understand the things that motivate your dog, different dogs have a different wish list of things they want

I truly believe, even although it seems I am alone these days, that food rewards should be used as a last resort and for as short a period as possible.

Dogs DO NOT sleep with the Alpha people in the house! (Nine times out of ten you will start this because you have a love hound and never will it cause a problem....BUT!)

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER loose sight of the fact that your dog, however special, is a dog and needs dog rules and dog language and dog fairness and dog understanding to really thrive, be happy and enjoy life.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

O.K. Carrie I got it. Don (my husband is Alpha) I am next right? Then comes Perry and Daisy almost on a even level Right?
We are going to have to work this out with Daisy sleeping with me, I can try everything else but I can't give that up. I will tell her I am Alpha, maybe she will listen ( American humor) Seriously you have given me a lot of great information and I will take it one step at a time. Just don't give up on us o.k. I'm trying, I read all these posts to Don so he will understand you just keep prodding us.
Carrie, just thought I would add this one picture to make your day :D :D :D

http://wsphotofews.excite.com/031/1w/KJ/ml/DK66689.jpg

[ August 13, 2001: Message edited by: Jackie ]

[carrie]

I love it! (The American humour, not the sleeping in the bed bit! Although I have to admit it is a very cute picture!!!)
Thanks for starting my day off with a smile!!

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Carrie, we are working on it. Perry used to screech when I put my shoes on, now I have him sitting and he is doing well, after, I give him a treat. I am putting Perry's bowl down first then Daisys. I'm trying to let Perry in the house first and I hold Daisy back, but he won't come in until she does.
Haven't figured that one yet. So we are trying one day at a time. Thanks for your advice.
Jackie

[karen israel]

I finally caught up with the both of you!!! You both are so fabulous! Jackie, I just LOVED Don's picture, I just laughed and laughed! As for YOU Carrie, whom I love so much, so glad you're back!! Missed you terribly! AndYES, Ms. Daring here, located the BOLDUBB code!!! :D :D :D
While we're on the subject, Carrie, C does not sleep on my bed but will lay on it when I'm dressing (humpf...fresh!)or cleaning....I do lean down and smush his face and kiss him etc..is THAT(sorry)considered Alpha???? Also, when I stare him in the eye, I usually wind up getting kissed on the nose. Am I FINALLY(damn!) Alpha?????

[ August 15, 2001: Message edited by: karen israel ]

[carrie]

Hi karen, you babe you!

It really isn't so much if a single dog is allowed on the bed that makes him consider his position - it's under what circumstances.
If the dog just jumps onto the bed whenever he feels like it and sees it as a his right to do so that's not so good. If, on the otherhand, you use the fact that you don't mind him being there and it has become a bit of a routine to give his mind some excersise that's VERY good. Just before he jumps onto the bed, you could get his attention, ask for a sit and then tell him he can go on the bed as his reward. Nobody has given up anything that they enjoy, the dog will very quickly learn to sit without any prompt (or just with another one of those fantastic looks) and some very subtle signals are sent.
Once the dog has the hang of this try it with a down before the dog is allowed up on the bed, then with a sit and a speak (bark)....the possibilities are limited only to your imagination! By Christmas you could have Cody cooking breakfast for you every morning, warming up the car and making the bed! This is the "enrichment" you hear zoo keepers and behaviourist talking about all the time.

The looking in the eye is all dependant on the kind of eye contact you start with....try this one - when Cody is relaxed but not asleep start to give him very quick glances four to five seconds apart with soft eyes. Let me know what he does about it but I will say that some dogs, Paddy included, will ignore it or go to sleep - I will tell you why next time. Watch closely to his reaction.

[K9karen]

LOL! As long as Cody doesn't touch my wine or smoke my ciggies, I'm down with that!! :cool: By the way, I need to tell him I like my eggs over easy!! Thx sweetie, I will definitely let you know what happens with the beast. :D

[jackiesdaisy1935]

WOW Carrie, you have your work cut out for you now!!!! :D :D :D :D
Jackie

[carrie]

Yeah, I think you are right!! Maybe teaching a dog by remote learning to cook a full English breakfast was a step too far? Time to give up dog training, me thinks!!

It wouldn't be such a problem if only Karen would settle for scrambled eggs!!!!