Are annual shots overkill!!!

[frawri]

I thought this was really interesting, and wanted to get some feed back on it.

http://www.vas-awareness.org/WSJAreAnnualShotsOverkill.pdf (www.vas-awareness.org/WSJAreAnnualShotsOverkill.pdf)

[.sarah]

Vaccines are harmful even if given once. Two of my dogs have suffered from them.

I am working on an "article" on this, and it will be posted here. Not sure when, but should be within the next few weeks. It's just going to share my dogs' stories and the treatment they're recieving and some info on over-vaccination.

Here are some more links:
- Is Your Pet Dying from Over-Vaccination Due to Vet Economics? (http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/2003/May/09/IsYourPet9.htm) (scroll down some for the article)
- Vaccines - Are They Safe for Your Dog? (http://www.angelfire.com/biz/froghollerfilas/VaccBlanco.html)
- Vaccinations for Dogs and Cats: Too Many, Too Often? (http://www.thepetcenter.com/exa/vac.html)
- Canine Vaccination Concerns (http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/health/vaccination-concerns-uk.htm)
- Immunisation (http://www.doggiesparadise.com/immunisation.shtml)
- Take the Titer Test (http://www.mountainsidedesigns.com/titer_test.htm)
- Vaccinations for the New Puppy (http://www.chromadane.com/VARGAS7.htm)
- Rabies Scam (http://www.vonshrado.com/PuppyInfo/Rabies%20Scam.htm)
- Think About This (http://www.vonshrado.com/PuppyInfo/think_about_this.htm)
- Vaccine Reactions (http://www.vonshrado.com/PuppyInfo/Vaccine%20Reactions.htm)
- What About Vaccines? (http://home.earthlink.net/~pawsreflect/vaccinosis.html)

[Jessika]

Well ALL vaccines have the potential to be "harmful". Human vaccines, pet vaccines, all vaccines are is they are injecting a weakened strain of whatever virus into your system so your body can build up antibodies against the virus or whatever so if you DO come in contact with it again you will have a strenghtened immunity against it. BUT sometimes it backfires, and eventhough its a weakened strain, you can become infected by it and get sick. So that is always a risk you take, whether it be you, your children, or your pets.

[wolfsoul]

My dog almost died from parvo all because the vaccine weakened her immune system and left her vulnerable to the parvo in the environment (the very thing the vet said it would prevent).

I do parvo and distemper seperatly and that's it. One shot for each, nothing more. Visa is titred if she needs proof of vaccination for anything, and the vet has someone that forages rabies vaccine certifications if we ever need to cross the border.

[.sarah]

Jordan, I am curious why you even vaccinate at all, especially since Visa almost died from it. Do you do it at 16 weeks when the natural immunity wears off?

My dogs are never getting vaccinated again, and no future dogs or puppies will be vaccinated.

Also, you must have a cool vet! I wish I could find one that didn't want to shoot my dog up any chance they got.

[Jessika]

So you think rabies shots are unnecessary? I got Charlie 3 year shots and Jamie one year.. but that's pretty much the only vaccinations they've had or that I do routinely.

Sarah, what do you do when you have to bring them somewhere and you have to show proof of vaccinations?? Like, for example, grooming or dog events, etc.

[.sarah]

Rabies shots are very, very unneccessary except to abide by the law, which I have found a way to get around. Luka is suffering from one she got in March and there is no cure.

Also, three year and one year are the same. They are the same shot marketed with a different label to abide by state laws.


Sarah, what do you do when you have to bring them somewhere and you have to show proof of vaccinations?? Like, for example, grooming or dog events, etc.
I have titers done to proove immunity so that we can attend obedience classes. For Rabies - I have a way to get around it that I don't want to say publicly, but could PM to you if you're curious.

[Jessika]

Rabies shots are very, very unneccessary except to abide by the law, which I have found a way to get around. Luka is suffering from one she got in March and there is no cure.

Also, three year and one year are the same. They are the same shot marketed with a different label to abide by state laws.


I have titres done to proove immunity so that we can attend obedience classes. For Rabies - I have a way to get around it that I don't want to say publicly, but could PM to you if you're curious.

Hm, I have never heard of a titre before. Yeah, please pm me, I would love to discuss this and learn more!

[wolfsoul]

I don't do the parvo and distemper when the dogs are adults. :) Only once when they are puppies (at 15 weeks if I am able to -- Visa's breeder and my friend I am getting a sheltie pup from both do their shots while the puppies are still very young so they can get them done before they go to their new homes, but I am going to talk to them and tell them that I want to do it myself at 15 weeks), and no more for the rest of their lives. Parvo and distemper are very very rare around here, the only times they ever happen are from vaccine reactions, but I feel that since the dogs will be going to shows and trials for their entire lives, and coming to work with me all the time, one shot for each disease won't hurt, as long as it's only done once and never again. After that I do titres and nothing else.

Yeah, my vet is awesome. :) She is both holistic and conventional but likes things done the holistic way if possilbe. She uses her judgement well though. When Visa and her littermates got parvo, there was no way she would treat them holistically. She absolutely refused. I trust her and her judgement. This (http://www.pawsitivevet.com/) is her site. :)

[binka_nugget]

This is very, very bad and I probably shouldn't even be saying this but I photoshop old certificates when I need "proof" of vaccination. They do get rabies vaccines though because it's required by law... but since it's every 3 years and the only vaccine they receive, I'm quite fine with it.

[wolfsoul]

LOL that's awesome.

[.sarah]

but since it's every 3 years and the only vaccine they receive, I'm quite fine with it.
Rabies is the worst, it effects the nervous system. It can cause fear, aggression, and anxiety. Because of the shot Luka is afraid of pretty much everything now, even our backyard. I think it caused Mandy's aggression too, since she used to be wonderful with dogs, but we can't remember enough to make a proper diagnosis.

[Undomiel]

is it bad to get their vaccinations at the vet?

[binka_nugget]

Rabies is the worst, it effects the nervous system. It can cause fear, aggression, and anxiety. Because of the shot Luka is afraid of pretty much everything now, even our backyard. I think it caused Mandy's aggression too, since she used to be wonderful with dogs, but we can't remember enough to make a proper diagnosis.

Oh wow.. I don't think I could deal with a more aggressive Kaedyn or fearful Kai. :eek: Yikes.. maybe I'll look into doing what Jordan does.

[luvofallhorses]

I do think that rabies shots ARE neccessary. I know my aunt's jrt/chihuahua mix threw up after getting her first shots, but that's normal right? :confused: I also think it keeps their immune system healthy by being vaccined. jmho!

[carole]

I may be on the outer with my opinion but i am a firm advocate of vaccinating, my children and my pets, yes there are indeed risks and of course i do worry about them, but i believe the risk of getting these outweigh the risks of vaccination,there are some unlucky ones, humans and animals as have been told here, and i guess if that happened to me i might well change my mind.

We donot have rabies vaccine here in NZ, so that is a plus, not needed, let us hope it stays that way, and i vaccinate my cats every two years for cat flue etc, it has only recently been reduced to two yearly , used to be once a year.

In an ideal world if everyone vaccinated we would beable to irradicate nearly all these diseases,well that is my personal belief anyhow.

[wolfsoul]

In an ideal world if everyone vaccinated we would beable to irradicate nearly all these diseases,well that is my personal belief anyhow.
I disagree with this. When Visa was a puppy, there was an older litter being raised with them. After their older litter recieved vaccines, one of the puppies developed parvovirus (the disease he was being vaccinated against GAVE it to him). After days of living with the other litter, Visa and her littermates were perfectly fine. The vet vaccinated the litter, the vaccines weakened the immune systems, and all of the puppies developed parvo. Some of these puppies died. If it weren't for the vaccines, none of these puppies would have developed parvo in the first place. Vaccinosis is not rare at all -- I hear about it all the time. When you are vaccinating, you are giving a part of the diseas e to the animal, therefore it is impossible to eradicate all diseases by vaccinations alone.

[Lady's Human]

Actually, it is possible. Smallpox and polio ring a bell?

[wolfsoul]

People are NOT the same thing --- Polio and smallpox vaccines were not given to every single person for dozens of years annually or every few years. Dogs can have ten generation pedigrees where every single dog in that pedigree recieved the exact same vaccinations. Not only does this mean that the dog is breeding a weaker immune system into it's line, but that dog is carrying on a higher chance of vaccine sensitivities. Smallpox was not something that was vaccinated into the entire world population for years and years and years. Vaccinosis is extremely rare in people compared to dogs because people are not vaccinated as often and not with nearly as dangerous protocols. People are not able to start breeding at a young age and create litters that pass on the same genetic predispositions every year. Smallpox and polio compared to parvo virus is not the same thing at all. Parvo is one of the more common vaccinosis reactions, it has been known to last on sterilized surfaces for up to 7 years, etc. There is no way that every canine and feline disease could be wiped out as easily as polio and smallpox were.

[Lady's Human]

The original purpose of Rabies vaccines and the laws requiring rabies vaccine was not to protect the dogs, it was to protect the human population from getting the disease through dogs. Given the fact that rabies is a fairly common disease in wild animals in North America, not vaccinating is foolish.

If a reliable test for immune levels was developed and allowed by law, I could see not vaccinating every three years. Until that happens, however, I'll follow the law.

[wolfsoul]

If the rabies vaccine was created to protect humans, why don't the humans get the vaccines? Because there is a strong risk of problems, so instead we give them to our pets. I don't understand why we give them to dogs anyways -- I mean, if someone is stupid enough to not go to the doctor after being bit by a rabid dog...It takes 3-12 weeks for rabies symptoms to start. By then, it would be obvious that the animal has rabies. Of course if it is a stray dog,there should be enough suspicion of a dog randomly attacking somone that they would go to the dotocr. The only animal that doesn't give a very noticable bite is a bat, so that is the only time I can see someone not going to their doctor. The problem is not rabies, it's people's common sense.

There IS a legal reliable test for antibody levels that can be used in most areas--- it's called a titer. My dog gets it annually. Rabies vaccinations are not required by law where I live, as rabies is very rare. The very first rabid skunk in BC was found two years ago.

[Corinna]

Rabies is the only one I get for my pets one becouse of the law, and we live in an area with proven rabied bats.
I got my kids their first 2 vaccines and both got sick , and then I started reading about them . I stopped getting them , too many factors show that too many other things are happening to the kids getting them. ( hyper activity, autism, and immume defistionsys(sp) ) Son got hyper active after his two. Plus the pertusus in the whooping caugh one each one spiked a 1o4 temop in 20 mintues( so did I as a kid)

[wolfsoul]

I stopped getting vaccines after getting sick too. After my second HepB shot I was sick with flu-like symptoms for two weeks and developed a phobia of anything sharp. Now whenever I need my blood tested I have an absolute panic attack. My dad developed both the hyperactive and innattentive subtypes of ADHD after getting his first shots, so he never had any shots for the rest of his life. My stepmom always laughs because she got all of her vaccinations and still got mumps, my dad didn't get any vaccinations and barely gets a cold.

[wolf_Q]

I've also been worried about the annual vaccines. Nebo has received all of them each year and is due this July (annual, next year rabies) but I don't think I'm going to do the annuals. I've asked about the titer tests but I haven't yet found a vet that does that, I will keep looking. Are any of the diseases the annual vaccines are made to prevent life threatening in a healthy adult dog (besides rabies)? I know parvo can be life threatening but I thought it was a lot more serious in puppies.

I do think he'll still get a rabies vaccine though, because I'm paranoid. I know that if by chance he bit anyone if I couldn't provide proof of a current rabies vaccination he'd have to be quarantined for at least 10 days. When I was bit by a cat at work and it was not current the cat had to be (by law) quarantined, or kill the cat to test it (I'm not sure if I, being the one bit, actually could choose to have that happen? I didn't and wouldn't of course). I didn't want to get the rabies shots, so I rather just hoped I didn't get a phone call saying the cat showed symptoms of rabies, bad idea I know. :o I don't think rabies is *that* common around here but I do go camping often where there's lots of wild animals........like I said, I'm paranoid. :o

*edited to add: I got a flu shot once and became extremely ill from it and I have sworn to never get one again!

[Sevaede]

Hmmm. I think I am divided on this issue. Where I live, I am pretty sure there are things that are really common besides heartworm (which, as we all know, is not taken care of by vaccination but rather a topical or pill.). I would just be worried about my fur babies coming in contact with any diseases. Hmm. I shall do some more research.

So far, (even though this doesn't apply, exactly) Soni has been vaccinated against rabies, feline leukemia, and fvrcpc. I will do the same for Isis because not only is it required by law but I have to do it in order for her to be spayed (some even require a bordatella vacc.).

edit: As far as human vaccinations go, I have had a polio vaccination, and have started the hep b several times but never finished, amongst others and have never had a problem with them myself. Then again, I've always been pretty darn healthy minus the ear infections when I was way younger and especially concerning something else.

[Cinder & Smoke]

Rabies shots are very, very unnecessary except to abide by the law,
which I have found a way to get around ...

For Rabies - I have a way to get around it that I don't want to say publicly ...

Rabies is the worst, it effects the nervous system.
It can cause fear, aggression, and anxiety.
Because of the [rabies] shot Luka is afraid of pretty much everything now,
even our backyard. I think it caused Mandy's aggression too ...


http://petoftheday.com/i/our_smilies/eek.gif

I'm pretty sure all 50 of the US States, or in the case of Ohio - all the COUNTIES,
require Rabies Vaccinations; usually for dogs, cats, and ferrets.

The big rub comes if your dog is accused of *biting* a Human or another Pet -
You are then required to Prove your dog has a current Rabies Certificate -
which in Ohio must be signed by a licensed VET.
Without proof of the Rabies Vaccination - the law allows the Health Department to
order the biting dog quarantined and if suspected of being rabid, euthanised for testing for rabies.

Falsifying a Rabies Certificate - is probably a criminal act - I'd hate to accused
of doing that.

As for the Rabies Vaccination *CAUSING* "fear, aggression, and anxiety"
in a vaccinated dog - NEVER heard of that being a problem.

Long & Short of it - YOU can't be certain that your dog will "never" come in
contact with a RABID wild animal - thereby running the risk of being infected with Rebies.

Not worth the risk to me - even Boots, da INSIDE Kat, gets his Rabies Shot
every three years!

/s/ Phred

[wolfsoul]

As for the Rabies Vaccination *CAUSING* "fear, aggression, and anxiety"
in a vaccinated dog - NEVER heard of that being a problem.


On my vet's website (I posted th link in my second post) she talks about rabies vaccines causing behavioural problems, she has experienced it herself firsthand. Cali has also gone through it with her dog, Happy -- I'm sure she'll pipe in eventually. :)

[Lady's Human]

Rabies vaccines are given to dogs by law because the easiest way to control a disease is to control the disease vector. For humans, the most common vector for rabies was dogs. Hence, rabies vaccines for dogs.

[.sarah]

I'm pretty sure all 50 of the US States, or in the case of Ohio - all the COUNTIES, require Rabies Vaccinations; usually for dogs, cats, and ferrets.

The big rub comes if your dog is accused of *biting* a Human or another Pet -
You are then required to Prove your dog has a current Rabies Certificate -
which in Ohio must be signed by a licensed VET.It is different here in Florida, a vet does not have to give the vaccine.


Falsifying a Rabies Certificate - is probably a criminal act - I'd hate to accused of doing that.Me too, but what are the chances? I never leave my dogs alone with strangers, so what is the chances of them biting? I'm really not worried.


As for the Rabies Vaccination *CAUSING* "fear, aggression, and anxiety" in a vaccinated dog - NEVER heard of that being a problem.Read the links I provided. It can happen and it happens all the time. People just brush it off as "just another fearful dog" because it has become "normal". It's NOT normal for a dog to be afraid of everything, especially when it's never been abused. It has happened severly to one of my dogs, and Mandy could have also been affected but it was so long ago that we can't prove it. Nova was affected by one of the other vaccines.


Long & Short of it - YOU can't be certain that your dog will "never" come in contact with a RABID wild animal - thereby running the risk of being infected with Rebies.There aren't very many rabid animals in comparison to the non-rabid animals. Yes, it is possible. But having had one, possibly two, of my dogs been affected by the vaccine, I'll take my chances.

[frawri]

I may be on the outer with my opinion but i am a firm advocate of vaccinating, my children and my pets, yes there are indeed risks and of course i do worry about them, but i believe the risk of getting these outweigh the risks of vaccination,there are some unlucky ones, humans and animals as have been told here, and i guess if that happened to me i might well change my mind.

We donot have rabies vaccine here in NZ, so that is a plus, not needed, let us hope it stays that way, and i vaccinate my cats every two years for cat flue etc, it has only recently been reduced to two yearly , used to be once a year.

In an ideal world if everyone vaccinated we would beable to irradicate nearly all these diseases,well that is my personal belief anyhow.


I am sorry but I do disagree with you on this topic. I think vaccinations are one of the main killers of babies. And there is a great deal of proof out there if people would just look into it. Here is a list of just fillers for your average vaccination.


Vaccine Fillers and Ingredients

In addition to the viral and bacterial RNA or DNA that is part of the vaccines, here are the fillers:

aluminum hydroxide
aluminum phosphate
ammonium sulfate
amphotericin B
animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
dog kidney, monkey kidney,
chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
calf (bovine) serum
betapropiolactone
fetal bovine serum
formaldehyde
formalin
gelatin
glycerol
***human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)****
hydrolized gelatin
monosodium glutamate (MSG)
neomycin
neomycin sulfate
phenol red indicator
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
potassium diphosphate
potassium monophosphate
polymyxin B
polysorbate 20
polysorbate 80
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
residual MRC5 proteins
sorbitol
sucrose
thimerosal (mercury)
tri(n)butylphosphate,
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
washed sheep red blood cells

Do you want this in your baby...

[frawri]

Actually, it is possible. Smallpox and polio ring a bell?

There not eradicated, just cut down... Plus at the time I don't think the vaccination had all this other junk in it that is in our vaccinations now.

[frawri]

I think we all can have our own views on this with out getting at each other’s throats. We are not animals, lets not act like them. This topic was brought up to help others see there is something wrong with just letting others do our thinking for us. I think it has helped us talk about it. That is great, lets keep doing that. It helps out so many people. But please don't just take one or two persons idea of right or wrong. Look into it for yourself. Think for yourself. Do research. Then when you have it all sitting in front of you, make an educated choice as to right or wrong. Your animal is going to love you either way, but it is important for YOU to make that educated choice.

[Lady's Human]

Smallpox has been listed as ereadicated, with only lab samples of the virus known to exist. The last known case of smallpox was in Somalia in 1978. The last children in the US to recieve the smallpox vaccine were born in 1969 and 1970.

When was the last time you heard of a polio case in the US? If there was one, it would be huge news. Polio is known right now only to exist in 4 countries, according to the WHO

http://www.polioeradication.org/content/general/current_monthly_sitrep.asp

Vaccinations now have far fewer harmful ingredients in them now than they ever have, mainly due to a large increase in medical knowledge about what things do to our bodies. One of the ingredients you listed in your post was thimerosol, which is no longer in child vaccines, and is in vaccines for adults in such minute amounts that you would get more mercury from eating a can of tuna.

The dangers from vaccines are far outweighed by the elimination of the diseases that they prevent.

As to doing research, be VERY very careful about the studies you take a look at. The scientific methodology of many of the articles about vaccines on the web are doubtful at best. Look at the authors, who funded the studies, credentials, peer review, etc.

[shihtzulover850]

I thought it was the law here to get them vaccinated. I am pretty sure it is. I think they should get vaccinated. Rabies and distemper and parvo and everything else is scary.

[shihtzulover850]

Smallpox has been listed as ereadicated, with only lab samples of the virus known to exist. The last known case of smallpox was in Somalia in 1978. The last children in the US to recieve the smallpox vaccine were born in 1969 and 1970.

When was the last time you heard of a polio case in the US? If there was one, it would be huge news. Polio is known right now only to exist in 4 countries, according to the WHO

http://www.polioeradication.org/content/general/current_monthly_sitrep.asp

Vaccinations now have far fewer harmful ingredients in them now than they ever have, mainly due to a large increase in medical knowledge about what things do to our bodies. One of the ingredients you listed in your post was thimerosol, which is no longer in child vaccines, and is in vaccines for adults in such minute amounts that you would get more mercury from eating a can of tuna.

The dangers from vaccines are far outweighed by the elimination of the diseases that they prevent.

As to doing research, be VERY very careful about the studies you take a look at. The scientific methodology of many of the articles about vaccines on the web are doubtful at best. Look at the authors, who funded the studies, credentials, peer review, etc. I agree.

[Jessika]

I thought it was the law here to get them vaccinated. I am pretty sure it is. I think they should get vaccinated. Rabies and distemper and parvo and everything else is scary.
Its required to get vaccinated against certain things. I think the only thing REQUIRED by law, here, is rabies, and I'm sure that is the same everywhere (in the US at least). But as far as vaccinating against other diseases like parvo, distemper, etc, those aren't required by law. Not here, anyway.

[shihtzulover850]

In the state I live in it is required by law for rabies. I don't know about other vaccinations but I get them done anyway. This is something that happens rarely. If Snuggles wasn't vaccinated I couldn't take her to the kennel/doggy daycare or the groomers. There are some human vaccines that I think are unnecessary. Others I think we should get. Just my opinion

[Jessika]

In the state I live in it is required by law for rabies. I don't know about other vaccinations but I get them done anyway. This is something that happens rarely. If Snuggles wasn't vaccinated I couldn't take her to the kennel/doggy daycare or the groomers. There are some human vaccines that I think are unnecessary. Others I think we should get. Just my opinion
Well as Sarah mentioned previously in this thread, you can get a titer and go to public places without having vaccinations. I know what a titer is now, hehe, didn't at first.

[labmomma]

I as just discussing this with a friend last week. Back years ago, I'm 60, you had a family dog and I don't every remember going to the vets. My grandfather had a dog on his farm that lived to almost 20 or so and he never laid eyes on a vet. I know that the rabies shots are necessary, but I question all of this twice a year visits, etc. I consider myself a responsible pet owner, all are neutered and they do get their shots each year.
Has America's extravagance with their pets caused the increase in vet bills?
Any opinions?
Labmomma :)

[carole]

Wolfsoul I really cannot say vaccines for dogs are good or bad, i don't even have a dog, so i am not saying you are wrong by any means, my whole overall opinion is I would rather vaccinate than not, that is purely my opinion, and yes i have had both my children vaccinated, i am with Lady's Human on this ,i strongly believe in Humans that the risks of the disease,outweigh the risks of the vaccine,as for animals well i am not knowledgeable on that i confess, but i still prefer to vaccinate my cats, so far so good.

There will always be cases where things go wrong, and if that happened to me i am sure i would re-think my position on this subject.

I recently had Melissa vaccinated for meningicoccal (sp)again this is controversial, and there is always a risk,and of course everytime you vaccinate your child you worry and wonder are you doing the right thing,but i sure could not live with myself knowing there was a vaccine available and my child got this illness because i decided against it, and since we went through a very scarey situation when she was four and suspected of having this, i am not prepared to take the risk now knowing there is a vaccine available.,this disease is horrific and for those who do not know is very prevalent in NZ for what reason I am unsure of,and can also result in loss of limbs, I am not prepared to take the risk.

So for me i would vaccinate my animals just the same,but whenever i make a decision i always look at all the pros and cons and do not simply rush into it, vaccination whether it be for humans or animals is a personal thing, and only we can decide what we think is best for our family be it human or furkids.

I have an online friend who contracted polio, for some reason his parents decided against vaccination ,he now has to live with the consquences the rest of his life and they are not nice.

[T-Ice]

Domestic animals with no proof of rabies legitimate vaccine (in states where it is required by law) can be put down without even the owner knowing. That is why they tell you to always keep your rabies tag on your dog , or current rabies info on a micro chip/Home Again type service.

But the chances of this happening? I personally don't keep rabies tags on my dogs, they would be lost in a matter of hours! I do however have the rabies certificate readily available if needed.

My pet dogs get the Puppy 5-way or 7-way (usually 3 or 4 shots) and that's it for life. My dogs are exposed to tons of dogs. I have seen way to many unfit dog owners who would not recognize if their dog was ill and take necessary precautions to care for their dog until is well enough to expose to the general publics dogs.

[Kfamr]

It is different here in Florida, a vet does not have to give the vaccine.




Hm? I was under the impression that they needed their rabies in order to obtain licences - which are a must have by law. Atleast I was under the impression that that's how it is in my county.

[.sarah]

PDF link on number of rabies cases in Florida in 2005. (http://www.doh.state.fl.us/Disease_ctrl/epi/rabies/rabiestable2005.pdf) They were none in my county or two surrounding counties. But also notice that there are only 201 cases in all of Florida. That has got to be a tiny, tiny percentage of the actual number of animals here.

War against overvaccinating cats and dogs continues (article) (http://www.thatsracin.com/mld/miamiherald/living/home/pets/14564355.htm?sour)


Hm? I was under the impression that they needed their rabies in order to obtain licences - which are a must have by law. Atleast I was under the impression that that's how it is in my county.
I am not exactly sure what you mean, but since you quoted my comment about Florida not needing a vet to administer it, here are the states that do not require a veterinarian to administer the vaccine:

COLORADO
DELAWARE
FLORIDA
IOWA
KENTUCKY
MASSACHUSETTS
MICHIGAN
MISSISSIPPI
NEW HAMPSHIRE
OHIO
OKLAHOMA
PENNSYLVANIA
SOUTH DAKOTA
VIRGINIA
WISCONSIN

[KYS]

In CA you you must show proof of rabies every 3 years.
My dogs do get their rabies shots.

As for the other shots for your dogs....
This subject has been on the Akita lists for several
years now. When I purchased Sheba 12 years ago, her
breeder did not believe in shots and used Nosodes instead.
(not sure of the spelling)
My vet was and still is adamant about using annual
shots unless I did a titer test.

Now this is what I was told by two different vets other than
my own vet.
I can not remember the exact wording since it has been a couple of years.

1: If your dog does not have a compromise immune system the
yearly shots should not affect the dog.
2: The annual shots immunity stay with your dog for over a year, so
annual shots should not be needed and you should be able to be given every 2 or 3 years. exception would be if you live in a area where a disease
is prevalent.
3: an senior dog should have developed a build up and should not
need shots in their remaining years.

Now I am not a Vet, so what I have done with my dogs
is my choice from the info I have gathered.
(I do not use the 7-1 shots nor any extra shots)
Sheba is 12.5 years old. I no longer take her on trips and I stopped giving
her shots at age 10. The only shot she gets is the rabies.
Rocky is 6 years old. I give him the 5-1 or puppy shots (not the 7-1 every 1.5 to two
years now. I do not give him any extra shots such as kennel cough and
bordello etc.
When rocky turns 9 years old I will stop giving him shots accept for
rabies.

You can also spilt the shots up too. :)

[shihtzulover850]

Well as Sarah mentioned previously in this thread, you can get a titer and go to public places without having vaccinations. I know what a titer is now, hehe, didn't at first. What is a Titer?

[frawri]

I as just discussing this with a friend last week. Back years ago, I'm 60, you had a family dog and I don't every remember going to the vets. My grandfather had a dog on his farm that lived to almost 20 or so and he never laid eyes on a vet. I know that the rabies shots are necessary, but I question all of this twice a year visits, etc. I consider myself a responsible pet owner, all are neutered and they do get their shots each year.
Has America's extravagance with their pets caused the increase in vet bills?
Any opinions?
Labmomma :)

I think America is too interested in their pets and not enough in their own children. It is a sad day when a child has no restraint and no training. And the family pet has all the obedience classes and vet visits in the world. Why is that? Don't get me wrong, I love my animals, and they get taken care of very well. But kids in my mind come first then the family pet. Sorry had to let it out there. LOL

[julie ficenec]

vax's are not dangerous, yes some animals can have a reaction but 95% of them are just fine. i was a vet tech for 14yrs and i never saw 1 die!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[cali]

I am ani-vaccs as well, after Happy nearly died from regular vaccines and her went through a complete personality warp after her rabies vaccine which she is still recovering from at 5 years old we no longer risk it. at 16 weeks we do Parvo and thats it for life. when we go to a breeder we ask them not to vaccinate our pup when they take all the pups in. I go to a holistic vet who is actually both a holistic vet AND holistic human doctor, she is extremly nice and pulls strings to get titre prices down for us.

[wolfsoul]

What is a Titer?
A titer is a simple blood test that checks the levels of immunity the dog has to certain diseases. :) Unfortunatly unless the dog has either had the shot or had the disease, the titer will just tell you that the dog is unprotected for the disease -- it won't tell you if the dog can get it or not. For instance, when I titre Visa, the results come back that Visa can not have parvo (as she's already had it) and is unprotected for distemper. Titers have helped to prove that one shot can last a dog it's entire life.

[My Peanuts]

Here's my two cents.
Harley hunts EVERYTHING. Possums, squirrels, skunks. He NEEDS his rabies shot. He and my whole pack get rabies and distemper shots only. Plus there are bats flying around at night here and bats are big carriers of rabies. I might have a different opinion if one of my dogs was directly affected, but in all the years I’ve had dogs (my whole life) nothing bad has happened from shots.
Sylvia, the only one we had as a puppy, got more for her puppy shots and the foster mom gave Morty all his puppy shots too.
RB Angie developed IMHA blood disease and died within 3 days. I don't think it had anything to do with her shots because we were late that year and she didn't get them yet. At the time we thought she got IMHA because we didn't vaccinate her, but now I'm glad we were late because now I would think the shots did it.

[My Peanuts]

I just schduled Morty's rabies and distemper shots and now you all have me worried.

[Jessika]

If shots are good for life, if you get a titer, they will show up, correct?

[IRescue452]

Our dogs have never had a problem with vaccinations and I think this whole thing about vaccines being bad is as publicly misunderstood as the greenies thing. Autumn gets her rabies shot every 3 years and there have been many confirmed cases of rabies in our area. She's getting the lyme disease vaccination this year because ticks are everywhere and there have been 6 confirmed cases of lyme disease this spring in our area.

[Queen of Poop]

I honestly believe shots should be given, but only if there are no side effects. My ferret, Sebastian, had an allergic reaction and almost died from his rabies shot 3 years ago. It cost $300 to bring him back. He still lives today, but does not get any shots. My dog Sasha has had no reactions at all and continues to recive all of her shots regularly as prescribed by our vet, whom I completely trust, who has looked after my animals for 14 years now. Sebastian could contract distemper from Sasha if she did not have her shots and somehow managed to pick it up. I can't take the chance on losing either of them so I do what I believe is best for them, with my vet's blessing.

There is no right answer to this question. It is a matter of personal choice.

[shihtzulover850]

A titer is a simple blood test that checks the levels of immunity the dog has to certain diseases. :) Unfortunatly unless the dog has either had the shot or had the disease, the titer will just tell you that the dog is unprotected for the disease -- it won't tell you if the dog can get it or not. For instance, when I titre Visa, the results come back that Visa can not have parvo (as she's already had it) and is unprotected for distemper. Titers have helped to prove that one shot can last a dog it's entire life.
Are they expensive?

[Roxyluvsme13]

Roxy's due up for her shots soon, and she only gets rabies. The other ones, my grandpa insists she doesn't need, and honestly, the ONLY common thing around here I've heard of is Bordatella..so..
And, Lily has had all her shots.

[dogzr#1]

My dogs get all their shots, including rabies. They haven't shown any signs of a reaction to anyshots. Nor have any of my other dogs. so i think I will just stick with them getting shots.

[Spiritwind]

I am not exactly sure what you mean, but since you quoted my comment about Florida not needing a vet to administer it, here are the states that do not require a veterinarian to administer the vaccine:

COLORADO
DELAWARE
FLORIDA
IOWA
KENTUCKY
MASSACHUSETTS
MICHIGAN
MISSISSIPPI
NEW HAMPSHIRE
OHIO
OKLAHOMA
PENNSYLVANIA
SOUTH DAKOTA
VIRGINIA
WISCONSIN

Being from Ohio and worked at a vet clinic for 7yrs (though I just moved to NC) yes, you can order online and give your animals rabies shots yourself, however IF your animal bites someone, and you do not have a rabies certificate signed by a vet, your animal will be treated like it has not be vaccinated.

When in Ohio, I lived in SE part of the state, mostly rural wooded areas... lots of wild animals, LOTS coyotes, racoons, skunks etc... my dogs and cats had rabies vaccs every 3yrs. I am in NC now, basicly in the same time of area.. very rural.... they will continue to get rabies vaccs.

I have had Collies for 11yrs... and I have never had one dog have a reaction to any kind of vaccination (though I still don't think DHLPPC are needed yearly).... but since I do take my dogs all over the place, and to shows, I am rather afriad to not vaccinate for parvo/distemper...

Jana

[.sarah]

I have been delt bad information!! :( Florida does require a vet to give the vaccine as does most of those other states that I posted. My mom found the law online tonight and we read through it, and I was upset to say the least!

Though after a lot of searching, I have found another way to get around it ;) I'll do anything to keep that stuff out of my dogs!

[wolfsoul]

Are they expensive?
I can't find Visa's titer records so I'm not sure how much it costs here. But I believe her last appointment was around $150, that included a regular examination and a titre testing two viruses.


If shots are good for life, if you get a titer, they will show up, correct?
Yep, Visa is only titered for parvo and distemper, and the titer always says that Visa has antibodies that will not let her get parvo, and that she doesn't have any antibodies to protect her from distemper (as she's never had a distemper shot) but that she doesn't have it.

[MsLadyLyn]

People are NOT the same thing --- Polio and smallpox vaccines were not given to every single person for dozens of years annually or every few years. Dogs can have ten generation pedigrees where every single dog in that pedigree recieved the exact same vaccinations. Not only does this mean that the dog is breeding a weaker immune system into it's line, but that dog is carrying on a higher chance of vaccine sensitivities. Smallpox was not something that was vaccinated into the entire world population for years and years and years. Vaccinosis is extremely rare in people compared to dogs because people are not vaccinated as often and not with nearly as dangerous protocols. People are not able to start breeding at a young age and create litters that pass on the same genetic predispositions every year. Smallpox and polio compared to parvo virus is not the same thing at all. Parvo is one of the more common vaccinosis reactions, it has been known to last on sterilized surfaces for up to 7 years, etc. There is no way that every canine and feline disease could be wiped out as easily as polio and smallpox were.

As I recall the Smallpox vaccine was only given once. As for the Polio, I remember those nasty little "sugar cubes." But when my cousin developed Polio from taking the vaccine all our parents decided that not one of us were going to take another one, thank goodness! Our dogs however have to take these needless shots annually. Why would I want to take a chance that I could, in the long run, be doing my dear pet harm. I myself got a flu vaccine and then I got the flu! Will I take another one? Not on your life! As with rabies vaccines you and your pet are getting a "live virus" with these vaccines! So why do it at all?

[Lady's Human]

Rabies vaccines are NOT live virus.

[Roxyluvsme13]

On the whole you must have a Vet to give vaccines, I know it's not true here. My mom was suggesting a few years ago that she was going to do our Doxie's shots at home.

[wolfsoul]

Rabies vaccines are NOT live virus.
You can get both killed and modified live rabies vaccines --- most people prefer live.

[Lady's Human]

The vet school links I looked at all listed the killed vaccine, nothing about a live vaccine.

[Suki Wingy]

still making up my mind. Untill then, he will continue to get his full set of shots. One thing I have to ask is:
He has a mild case of epilepsy, the vet never said if he'd always had it or whatever, but it only showed up after a few years of annual vaccines. My question is, could this have ANYTHING to do with his rabbies vaccine?

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I just found this thread...I've never heard of vaccinations causing behavioural problems. None of the articles mentioned are from scientifc journals...just my opinion, but I'm not going to take pet health advice from the Wall Street Journal or any other place then from a licensed veteranarian or a sound, peer reviewed scientific journal.

A while back there was a big fuss of the first MMR shot (I think it was this one anyway) supposedly causing autism. This was found to be erroneous, in fact autism is first displayed at around 15 months of age, around the time when the shot is administered.

My point is, you cannot create fact from a few examples of pets getting sick after being given shots. That is called anecdotal evidence.

[frawri]

I just found this thread...I've never heard of vaccinations causing behavioural problems. None of the articles mentioned are from scientifc journals...just my opinion, but I'm not going to take pet health advice from the Wall Street Journal or any other place then from a licensed veteranarian or a sound, peer reviewed scientific journal.

A while back there was a big fuss of the first MMR shot (I think it was this one anyway) supposedly causing autism. This was found to be erroneous, in fact autism is first displayed at around 15 months of age, around the time when the shot is administered.

My point is, you cannot create fact from a few examples of pets getting sick after being given shots. That is called anecdotal evidence.

First off I had to comment on the picture of your dog. That made me laugh. LOL As for fact or fiction, there are a lot of vets out there supporting not getting so many shots. They feel that too many of them all the time can cause the pet to get sick from them. They have done a lot of studies on this, and found them to be harmful in such high doses. Were not saying these things to get everyone riled up. Just to point out some facts.

[molucass]

Do you guys not even believe in giving the puppies their first shots, 6 weeks and up? Or is it strictly just the yearly shots that ya'll don't give?

Morgan turned 6 weeks old today, and is due for her first shot, but I'm not sure if I should take her to have it or not.

[wolfsoul]

I didn't used to believe in giving the shots at 6 weeks -- however, Visa's breeder has turned me over. They say that a pup keeps it's mother's immunity until 15-16 weeks -- then why did Visa and her littermates develop parvo at 5 weeks? Something that Marla was told could never happen. Spirit (the mother) was not sick a day in her life, she had been innoculated for parvo the year before and was titred two weeks before conception, showing that she was immune. So how is it that her puppies got parvo at 5 weeks? After that, Marla now gives the puppies parvo and distemper shots at 6 weeks. The vet thought that the puppies that died (not Visa and her siblings that lived) also had distemper (something else Spirit was immune to), as none of them died of parvo -- they died of heart failure and had distemper-like symptoms.

It just makes you think...

[bckrazy]

Fozzie has gotten all 4 sets of his puppy shots, I think it's totally over-board to with hold boosters from a puppy because the whole idea is that it sets them up for immunity from the diseases. I've heard of people successfully giving only 6, 12, and 16 week shots - which seems fine, and a program that my Vet even encourages.

Because Gonzo is exposed to dogs potentially with kennel cough & such when going to Flyball & Agility and training, he gets vaccinated every 3 years and titers done yearly. In my county, we have to vaccinate against Rabies every 2 years so I do that too, of course.

There is SO much disease out there, and I don't want to lose my dogs to something stupid, so I try my best to be sure they're protected. Of course it isn't the same world as it was 50 years ago... back then, a pet dog rarely came in contact with strange dogs, and there was less disease as people lived further away. Because I live in the suburbs where other dogs are sitting right across a fence, and I bring my dogs everywhere, and there are outbreaks of Parvo at the local dog park, I would rather be on the safe side. I also do not want to over-vaccinate, as it can be just as dangerous.

[.sarah]

Do you guys not even believe in giving the puppies their first shots, 6 weeks and up? Or is it strictly just the yearly shots that ya'll don't give?

Morgan turned 6 weeks old today, and is due for her first shot, but I'm not sure if I should take her to have it or not.
I would assume you know why vaccines are pushed to be given, so I can PM you some links against them if you'd like. Just let me know, I'm not on my computer right now so can't send them until later.

[cali]

I think it's totally over-board to with hold boosters from a puppy because the whole idea is that it sets them up for immunity from the diseases. I dont think its overboard, the reason for not giving vaccins that young is that before around 15-16 weeks they still have the antibodys from their mom, basicly the vaccines that young do nothing whatsoever, because the pups are ALREADY proected. by 15-16 weeks the moms antibodys have worn off, so this is when I do Parvo. my vet agree's with this, I know when Blairs breeder was taking all the pups in for there puppy shots we asked her to skip Blairs vaccines, her vet like spazed lol my vet, after looking him over, told us that we were lucky we asked to not have him vaccinated beceause it could have made him dangerously sick(Blair was 2 weeks premature). of coarse some breeder might not be so willing to comply with that one lol

[bckrazy]

I meant, basically, just bypassing shots for puppies. Some people feel that healthy puppies should just fend off disease on their own, without any shots. I understand your opinion, totally. However, I feel it's better to get shots done as long as it does not compromise the puppy's health, after hearing Jordan's story about Visa contracting parvo, and after knowing of bad breeders who did not get their pups vaccinated at all (then again... they were also outside and exposed to many other dogs and even neighbors dogs/loose dogs) and lost whole litters to parvo at 6-8 weeks.

Yeah, that is a very understanding breeder. :) The breeder I was going to get my Corgi pup from also practiced limited vaccinations.

[.sarah]

I meant, basically, just bypassing shots for puppies. Some people feel that healthy puppies should just fend off disease on their own, without any shots.
I'm a little upset by this comment.

If I ever go to a breeder instead of a rescue, I would never buy from a breeder who did any vaccines. None. I don't think any vaccines are a good thing and feel they do more harm than good. I don't think I am any less responsible than someone who minimally vaccinates or vaccinates out the ying yang. We are all doing what we believe is right. I wouldn't take my 12 week old pup out in public whether they were vaccinated or not, and don't think anyone should. Too much is out there and too many diseases can be contracted, vaccines or not. Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.


after knowing of bad breeders who did not get their pups vaccinated at all (then again... they were also outside and exposed to many other dogs and even neighbors dogs/loose dogs) and lost whole litters to parvo at 6-8 weeks.
That's the problem, not the fact that they weren't vaccinated.



Sorry, I'm kind of bitter this morning =/

[BC_MoM]

IMHO, this worldwide vaccine issue is being blown out of perportion.

I will vaccinate my dogs yearly.

Dogs have been vaccinated for CENTURIES yearly.

[.sarah]

Dogs have been vaccinated for CENTURIES yearly.
Huh? Dogs have been vaccinated yearly for 2-3 decades, not centuries.

And just because it's been done that long doesn't mean it's safe.

[Roxyluvsme13]

I don't really know my whole opinion on the situation. Roxy only gets a yearly rabies vaccine, which will be a 3 year one next year, but it's only because my grandpa says she has to have them.
Lily's had all her puppy shots, and I don't think my cat's been vaccinated? (is it the same for cats?) Anyways, I don't know my whole opinion on the situation..:/

[dab_20]

I don't really know my whole opinion on the situation.

Same with me. My dog's get their yearly shots and rabies vaccine every other year. I really don't see much of a problem with it, though.

[BC_MoM]

I don't really know my whole opinion on the situation. Roxy only gets a yearly rabies vaccine, which will be a 3 year one next year, but it's only because my grandpa says she has to have them.
Lily's had all her puppy shots, and I don't think my cat's been vaccinated? (is it the same for cats?) Anyways, I don't know my whole opinion on the situation..:/

Well that doesn't count, because your pet's aren't not vaccinated because of these issues.

Ok, Sarah, people have vaccinated for decades with a low percentage of people having problems with their pets. It's not of concern to me.

[lv4dogs]

I personally think that some shots are good but too many can be harmful.

My dogs get their series of puppy shots and their first yearly vaccines. After that they only get vaccinated every 3-5 years (depending on the dogs health, age, activity levels, how frequently they travel, their tier results, etc..). EXCEPT for rabies, they get that every 3 years (well if they are young, their first rabies vacc. is due in one year, after that it's every 3 years) only because (A) it is state law and (B) I am an avid camper & travel frequently and rabies certificates are often needed for many different events.

[bckrazy]

Sorry Sarah, if I came off that way. It's definitely just "my opinion", and I wouldn't want to force it on anyone or make anyone feel bad because of it. The fact is that you are protecting your puppy, shots or not.

I agree, that the "well, they've been over-vaccinating for decades" thing is not a valid excuse. There are plenty of dogs who have had reactions & plenty of dogs who get the shot yearly and still contract the disease, the thing is that most vets have their own excuses that they force on owners, I've heard many. That reasoning, to me, is on the same level as "well, dogs have been fed kibble for decades..." :p

[.sarah]

Sorry Sarah, if I came off that way.
Bah, don't worry about it. Like I said, I wasn't in a great mood yesterday. :o


I agree, that the "well, they've been over-vaccinating for decades" thing is not a valid excuse. There are plenty of dogs who have had reactions & plenty of dogs who get the shot yearly and still contract the disease, the thing is that most vets have their own excuses that they force on owners, I've heard many. That reasoning, to me, is on the same level as "well, dogs have been fed kibble for decades..." :pYeah, I feel the same way!

[dragondawg]

There is always a chance that a vaccine may cause a severe allergic reaction such as anaphylactic shock, or as this thread started out with hemolytic anemia. There could also be localized skin reactions. Some dogs react to any vaccine as their immune systems are hyper active, while most dogs will never have a reaction.

Rabies vaccinations are required in most of the states in the U.S. If you wish to disobey the law, endanger your dog's health, and open yourself up to lawsuits if your dog becomes infected and bites someone, then that is your choice. But it is an irresponsible choice.

A rabies vaccine is a killed virus preparation and as such has absolutely no ability to infect the dog's brain or cause neurological side effects.

Parvo due to its lethality in puppies presents a confused picture. If you do not vaccinate your puppy, then you are trusting that it will never encounter an adult dog which is shedding the virus during that first critical first year. Even a puppy just over a year can get a severe and possible fatal infection from Parvo. On the other hand if you vaccinate too early then maternal antibodies received through the milk will neutralize the virus before an immune response can be mounted. That is why there are usually multiple vaccinations for Parvo to make sure the immune response occured. What happens if you vaccinate a puppy just after it has been exposed to Parvo, or just before it is exposed to Parvo? It will get Parvo as it takes at least a week to 10 days for immunity to build up from the vaccination. There are many occurances where the owner vaccinated and a few days later the puppy got sick. The puppy did not get sick from the vaccine. It got sick because it had been exposed to Parvo before being vaccinated or just after.


(due to thread length end of Part 1)

[dragondawg]

Distemper. If you want neurological problems and/or organ failure problems in later life then skip the distemper shot for your puppy. Why would you want to?

The vaccine schedule I'm following on my current two dogs (now age 3) are:

1. They recieved their "puppy shots" for parvo-distemper, bordetella, and of course rabies.

2. At year 1 and 2 they recieved booster shots for the parvo-distemper.

3. From here on out they will receive a booster once every 2-3 years. The rabies re-vaccination once every 3 yrs.

In addition since my female enjoys wallowing in one particular mud hole in the woods, I'm researching the prevalence of Leptospirosis in my area. Doubtful they will ever get lyme vaccinations, as the disease is easy enough to treat, and has not been a problem here for dogs. In another words some vaccination decisions are a matter of common sense.

The choice for puppies is clear. Vaccinate or take the risk of death or life long serious complications. Once the dog is an adult, give the one booster shot to ensure Parvo-distemper immunity. Then you can decide whether to vaccinate once every 2-3 years, or possibly longer. There are some studies suggesting life long immunity.

Per rabies - vaccinate. Note there are studies to indicate that even dogs undergoing Chemotherapy for cancer, can mount an immune response that is protective to a rabies vaccination. If your dog had an allergic reaction to a rabies vaccine (e.g. hives, breathing problems), then pre-loading with Benedryl is a way around the problem.