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4theloveofzoe
04-06-2006, 09:51 PM
In the last three days, Zoe has peed on my bed twice. :mad: She actually sits on my bed and urinates on my blanket

Any idea WHY she is doing this???? And any idea on how I can get her to stop????? :confused:

HELP!!! :(

zoomer
04-06-2006, 09:53 PM
Has there been any other animals/any kinds of different scents on it? Have you tried washing them? Have you tried putting on different sheets and blankets?

4theloveofzoe
04-06-2006, 09:58 PM
No... no other cats/dogs anything. Just us.

And I've sprayed the mattress down with pet deodorizer and I flipped the mattress. I also washed my sheets, pillowcases, and blanket in hot sudsy water.

zoomer
04-06-2006, 09:59 PM
Maybe she's just marking her territory... :confused:

I'm stumped.

4theloveofzoe
04-06-2006, 10:00 PM
My daughter, Isabel sleeps with me. And Zoe sleeps in the LR. She's 2 1/2 years old. Could Zoe be jealous?

I just don't know what to do anymore. And I can't keep the door shut. Isabel's toys are in there.

Ginger's Mom
04-06-2006, 10:00 PM
You may want to take her to the vet. Does she have a urinary tract infection?

4theloveofzoe
04-06-2006, 10:01 PM
She doesn't pee more then usual. And doesn't seem to be experiencing any signs of it.

Lori Jordan
04-06-2006, 10:01 PM
Ya know why she is doing it she is saying this is "Mine" had the same problems with my guys when i first got my border collie Maggy,she used to do it in the truck,my husband was a truckdriver until his injury....thank god for bunk beds cause there aint nothing you can do while driving down the road...I think it is a territorial thing!

4theloveofzoe
04-06-2006, 10:03 PM
But the thing is... she NEVER has slept with me ever.

I just don't get it.

Karen
04-06-2006, 10:08 PM
If she has never done this before, take her to the vet. You first need to rule out a medical reason for the problem. Also, while you are out, pick up some "Nature's Miracle" or a similar product at the pet store - it is designed to eliminate the enzyme we cannot smell, but dogs (or cats) smell as being a sign for "this is a good place to pee." If you catch her in the act, clap your hands loudly or quickly say No and take her outside. After you've ruled out a UTI, if there's no medical reason for this, she may just be testing her boundaries, and you'll have to be very vigilant and retrain her.

Lori Jordan
04-06-2006, 10:09 PM
neither my dogs,has she ever been scolded to get off the bed? or tries to sleep with you and you have told her to get down???

4theloveofzoe
04-06-2006, 10:11 PM
I've scolded her hundreds of times for even being in my room.

And she has never tried to sleep with us, because my door is kept shut.

Lori Jordan
04-06-2006, 10:12 PM
That could be why she is saying " I Run This House" lol is your name Lori also?

4theloveofzoe
04-06-2006, 10:16 PM
Yes... lol

I don't know about Zoe. She's been doing REAL well with the training, and then this...

Flatcoatluver
04-06-2006, 10:17 PM
I would take her to the vet... Better safe then sorry. :)

Lori Jordan
04-06-2006, 10:21 PM
That too but is she still going outside how many times has she wet the bed?

4theloveofzoe
04-06-2006, 10:44 PM
Yeah, she goes potty outside all the time.

She's peed on my bed twice this week.

Lori Jordan
04-06-2006, 10:46 PM
i think it is just a "you giving me crap" ill get you back thing"

4theloveofzoe
04-06-2006, 11:18 PM
So... How do I stop it? :( :mad:

Lori Jordan
04-06-2006, 11:31 PM
well there are lots of ways for the floor when they have picked a spot ,for your bed im not sure,keep your door shut but there is nothing you could put on your bed....mine only did it twice i scolded them and took them outside and that fixed my problem maybe try doing the same with her.

Rachel
04-07-2006, 06:34 AM
Like Lori Jordan I used the severe scolding, and immediately took the dog outside. The peeing on the bed episodes in my house happened with two different dogs. One was an excellent dog who was house broken in days as a puppy, and the other was well....Hannah....who was very difficult to house train (it literally took 2 years).

In both cases a severe scolding was all it took. It did not become a regular occurance, athough if I remember correctly, Hannah did it on two occasions.

mruffruff
04-07-2006, 08:04 AM
You might want to cover your bed with a plastic shower curtain liner when you aren't in it. The plastic isn't comfortable for dogs to get on and it will protect your bed if she does get on it. And use either Nature's Miracle or Simple Solution on any place she wet.

If you catch her, get her down with a gruff scolding. Five minutes later she won't remember what she did.

K9soul
04-07-2006, 12:09 PM
i think it is just a "you giving me crap" ill get you back thing"

I strongly disagree. I do not believe dogs think this way. That is putting human thoughts into a dog's head. It's more likely an insecurity behavior for some reason, but it's hard to really pinpoint it without being there and watching her. I do NOT believe dogs take "revenge" this way. If she is getting scolded a lot, she could be frightened and insecure. I would not use a gruff scolding personally. I would use positive training. I'd keep a treat pouch and call and treat her lots, and if you catch her on the bed, rather than scold or punish, call her and treat/praise her each time. A vet check isn't a bad idea either.

I also feel like if she's being given a lot of opportunity to go where she isn't supposed to and no one is around to redirect her, it's going to be pretty hard to teach her that she is not allowed in the room in this situation.

You say she sits down and urinates. Does that mean you have witnessed it each time? Perhaps she is getting caught on the bed, sees you, is afraid of being punished/scolded, and submissive urinates? My boy Tommy used to have a real issue with submissive urination. If this is the case scolding and yelling could make it even worse.

Like I said though, it is hard to understand without not really being there and witnessing her behaviors. Whatever you do though, please do not interpret it as a defiant/intentional behavior.

luvofallhorses
04-07-2006, 12:12 PM
well said, K9Soul..:) I would take her to the vet to see if there's anything wrong with her.

Lori Jordan
04-07-2006, 01:12 PM
You telling me your dog has never been distructive?

Vela
04-07-2006, 01:18 PM
I also agree with K9soul. Dog's just don't do things that way. We put human emotions such as anger and resentment on them that they just don't possess. You need to think like a dog with siutations like this. YOu can either move the toys and keep your bedroom door shut, or like someone else mentioned, for now keep a piece of noisy plastic or a shower curtain on the bed so that if she jumps up she won't like the sound, and if she does jump up and pee, then your bed is protected. You would be better off trying to keep the door closed though. I agree also that if you are seeing her do this there is a good possibility she is scared when she sees you and she is on the bed and pees out of fear at the time.

Being destructive doesn't mean they are trying to "get you back". They aren't like people. Most likely a dog who has done something destructive either likes playing with or chewing on whatever they destroyed, or was very bored. My guess is the dog is confused and peed on the bed out of submissive/fear urination. Dog's don't have "revenge" thoughts in that way.

Lori Jordan
04-07-2006, 01:19 PM
My dogs do things like that all the time if we leave them home alone they will pull papers off the computer desk and rip them up or,Get into the garbage,and the thing of instead of scolding i do not mean hit them byt a stern "That's Bad" by giving them treats only makes them think they have done something right when really they havent.When i took my guys to Obedience i switched to a different one,because she was all about treats,training them fine but when they have already learned what to do or how to do it,they should do on command and not do it jus for a treat.Just like my Border Collie she is in trials and i cannot be out in the field with her giving her treats all through her steps.It just dont work that way.
Dont get me wrong my guys always have treats,bones toys,all the time but im i guess different with my dogs then you are yours that is why it is good hearing different ways and techniques because we all do things differently :) .When your dogs pees on the bed ,you know what she listens too and reacts to different tones of your voice you will just have to see what works for her best.

K9soul
04-07-2006, 02:56 PM
I just don't have the time to address all the issues being brought up here, except to say training with treats and using positive rewards does not mean that your dog will never do anything without treats. Many, many agility and working dogs are trained with treats or a favorite toy or some kind of reward. For SOME dogs (it seems especially highly energetic and work-driven dogs), just the work itself is reward. Treat training can be VERY successful and reliable. Clicker training proves that (clicker training and treat training go together.) The key thing here is knowing how to phase treats out and/or make it a more random/occasional reward.

Destructive behavior has nothing to do with getting revenge. A dog that tears up something when you are away isn't doing it because he/she is mad at you and getting back at you, he/she is doing it out of boredom or anxiety or playfulness.

Anyway, here are a few links that explain some things in hopes it may provide some help.

About treat training
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?dept_id=0&siteid=12&acatid=202&aid=181

About clicker training
http://www.clickertraining.com/training/clicker_basics/index.htm?loaditem=what_is_ct&itemnumber=1&salesitem=what_is_ct_s

Myths about clicker/treat training
http://www.dogschool.co.uk/myths.htm

Placing human emotions on dogs (such as the dog is getting revenge or is mad at me)
http://www.thepetprofessor.com/articles/article.aspx?id=92

K9soul
04-07-2006, 03:00 PM
That last article says so much of what I want to say here that I'm just going to copy and paste it here for anyone who doesn't feel like following the link:

Placing Human Emotions on Dogs (http://www.thepetprofessor.com/articles/article.aspx?id=92)

Have you ever heard someone say or perhaps youíve caught yourself saying, ďMy dog knows he did wrongĒ, or how about this, ďMy dog knows heís guiltyĒ, or better yet ďMy dog did that just to spite me because heís mad at me.Ē Iím here to tell ya that dogs donít think like that. What weíre doing is placing human emotions on our dogs to explain their behavior. Dogs respond in the moment to their physical surroundings, available resources, and social pressures. They donít sit there and think, ďyou know, I didnít like it when Dad/Mom yelled at me earlier today so Iím going to rip out their cable line attached to the house and Iím going to do it when they least expect it. Iíll show them!Ē Dogs just donít think like that. Although we all have very smart dogs, they donít sit there and think out plans of revenge.

Whatís really happening is dogs are opportunists looking for opportunities to take, possess, and/or guard resources. In the above example with the cable wire, itís much simpler behavior thatís being expressed than an outrageous act of revenge. The dog has too much unsupervised time outside with fun toys available for him to amuse himself with. Trust me, I know this personally. I looked out the window one day to find my young German Shepherd ripping out my professional grade landscape edging. Iím here to tell ya, my dog Zena lives a pampered dogís life with plenty of food, exercise, and massages. There isnít anything that she could possibly be upset about with me. In fact, she adores me so much I sometimes question if she knows sheís a dog. But lets stick to one topic for discussion here.

In a dogís mind, Zena found the largest tug toy there is, 20 feet of edging material. And, better yet this toy was hidden treasure since it was partly buried in the ground. What an adventure it mustíve been for her. It reminded me of the time when my brother and I were young kids digging a hole to visit China. Jimmy, as I called him back then, was looking down into our huge hole when I raised the shovel to take out another load of dirt. We were positive China would soon appear. Unfortunately, the shovel connected with the bridge of my brotherís nose. To this day, he still reminds me of having scarred him since boyhood. I just wish he would understand that at age 5, I didnít know one should first go to Engineering school prior to constructing a tunnel. Iím happy to report though, while he may not have forgotten that tragic expedition experience, he has since forgiven me. Thank you Jim.

But letís go back to Zena. She was expressing the zest for life and adventure as my brother and I had in our earlier days. She was having the time of her life and I couldnít help but marvel at her commitment to remove that toy from the ground. She was tugging with all her might on one end of the edging material having successfully exposed 15 feet of it. With another tug or two, she certainly would remove the remaining 5 feet still buried in the ground. If I hadnít spent so much time and sweat installing that ďtug toyĒ, I think I would have found myself cheering her on. But instead, it really wasnít that funny when I thought about the work it would take to replace what she had removed.

Okay so what did I do? Well I certainly didnít replace that edging where she could perform another search and destroy mission time and time again. My mistake was failing to anticipate her commitment and resolve to amuse herself in my absence. And, while the edging material was there prior to her coming into my life, I couldnít expect her to make this extirpation. That would be placing a human emotion on her. Instead, I used the edging material in another part of my landscape that isnít accessible to her and I purchased a large jolly ball (a tough but still flexible rubber ball). She loves to pounce on that ball, carry it around and throw it just so she can go chase it again. And, that one ball which seemed expensive at the time (approximately $24.00) was a drop in the bucket. It certainly saved me much more money, sweat and tears from having other landscape objects destroyed.

Zena was being a dog operating in the moment, which is one of the reasons I love her so much. In a world that we find ourselves pondering the motive behind another personís behavior towards us; itís reassuring to know my dog is perfect at being a dog. Instead of blaming her for finding a truly wonderful tug toy, I found her a new appropriate toy to occupy her time and energy.

So the next time you find yourself considering your dogís unacceptable behavior as a well planned out and executed act of revenge consider the following question. When my dog is being ďgoodĒ, did he/she sit there and think ďyou know its my ownerís birthday tomorrow, so I am going to be extra nice because I love them so and this is what they would want me to do?Ē Iím sorry to inform you they donít have this forethought either. Instead, they are fun loving opportunists thinking and acting in the moment and I hope this helps to reformat the way we unfairly place human emotions on dogs.

Article submitted by: © Michael Burkey

4theloveofzoe
04-07-2006, 04:13 PM
Thanks everyone.

she's been on my bed before and laid there w/o peeing.

No I haven't ever caught her urinating, but she leaves behind a HUGE puddle.

dab_20
04-07-2006, 04:30 PM
I strongly disagree. I do not believe dogs think this way. That is putting human thoughts into a dog's head. It's more likely an insecurity behavior for some reason, but it's hard to really pinpoint it without being there and watching her. I do NOT believe dogs take "revenge" this way.

I agree. Dogs simply do not think the way we do, and they don't think about 'getting back' at you.

I would recommend seeing a vet, also. Good luck!

4theloveofzoe
04-08-2006, 01:10 PM
Well, I took her in to see her vet yesterday.

She can't find anything physically wrong with her. :confused:

She thinks that it's a jealousy issue also. I'm moving upstairs into my daughters bedroom, and then she'll be moving downstairs. So we'll see if that ends her bad behavior.

bckrazy
04-08-2006, 03:14 PM
Jessica, you gave AWESOME advice :) thanks for that! I really agree with everything you had to say, and you definitely put a lot of time into helping Lori out.

Lori Jordan, I must admit I'm confused by what you've said... personally, I go to positive reinforcement training ONLY. My BC had a bit of a destructive streak when he was younger, and even though it's tempting, scolding them for that is almost always useless and just alienates your pup. He would tear up whatever when he was left alone, and we discovered that was because he was understimulated and had slight seperation anxiety. Now, we always exercise him thoroughly before leaving, give him stimulating toys (like stuffed Kongs and Buster Cubes) to work on, and we worked through the SA. If I scold my BC for anything he completely shuts down, so for me I use nothing but rewards, basically. I used to have a trainer, when he was young, who recommended prong collars and fine choke chains to use on him during Flyball training... and all he would end up doing is jerking so hard on the choker that he yelped loudly in pain. NOW, he will be wearing a harness and off-leash, and he'll be focused on me while dogs race right behind him, and that isn't due to negative reinforcement or yelling, it's due to teaching him "watch" - with or without a treat or toy lure. I really don't want my dogs to listen to me and focus on me based on fear of what might happen if he disobeys, our bond has gotten SO much closer since he instead is focused on the praise and fun he gets when he does what I want from him.

Border Collies, especially, tend to really thrive off of pleasing their owner, so once you do show them what IS right and you take care of THEIR needs, they are very happy well-adjusted dogs. Gonzo has full run of the house when we're gone, and a few times my Mom has forgotten to take out the garbage and left it sitting in the kitchen. It's always untouched when we get back because he knows what is GOOD to do when he's alone. I guess everyone finds what works for them, but I honestly never use treats during Flyball, only praise and tug rewards when he does good. And he is so much more focused and obedient than the owners who scream/scold at their dogs and use chokers/haltis/etc to control them.

lisahumphreys882
04-10-2006, 06:20 PM
Hopefully you read this...but my dog did the exact same thing. He was trained to go out and asked when he had to go, but then all of a sudden he started going to the bathroom inside. As well as zoe, he peed on my brother's bed and my parent's bed, and all over the house, including the stairs which was a hassel to clean. I'm pretty sure he was doing this for attention and that may be very well what your zoe is doing too, so I encourage you to check that out. I solved this problem by pretty much ignoring him. I keep him in the kitchen so what I did was put him down there and left him alone there for a while well we were all up stairs. I think he learned that when he did that he wasn't getting attention. *Remember that dogs also do things to get negative attention so sometimes the yelling doesn't work, we tried yelling "no" and so on, and my dog just continued going to the bathroom in the house. You can also try making zoe sit in a corner and stay there for a couple minutes. Hope this helps :)

Lori Jordan
04-10-2006, 06:47 PM
That is just the thing,We all have different things on training our dogs!I believe that treats should be given when the dog has done something right,But not when they have done something wrong like Messing on the bed!Just the other day me and my trainer had difference of opinion,My Newf takes off if you go to go out the door she will rush you and get out and be gone for half an hour my trainer says to me give her a treat when she does come home,and there is no way i would do that.

She did something wrong im not going to praise her for it.I do not yell or hit my dogs but when she came in i put her in her crate and that is punishment in itself because she hates her crate.
Given she is a year old they tend to still be like a child,they want what they want and that is it.
As for my Border Collie i have never had any problems of her acting out other than the time she wet the bed she was 8 weeks old,it could have been numerous reasons on why she did what she did.but it only happend once,Some people say rubbing there nose in there mess,Some people might use that ,but i would never do that i think if i was a dog in that position i would not like that very much and it really puts more work on you ,Youd have to turn around and bathe the dog right after.
I'm not saying i know it all on dogs but i have had many in my time,and i know what works for me just like the rest.And some things im still learning!

All of us are different in every way and when there is post like this you are going to hear different things,

K9soul
04-10-2006, 06:56 PM
That is just the thing,We all have different things on training our dogs!I believe that treats should be given when the dog has done something right,But not when they have done something wrong like Messing on the bed!

I'm not going to go into my thoughts on all of this as I've already posted my advice on using positive methods, but I want to clarify that I never said treat the dog after she pees on the bed, I said treat her for coming to you when called off the bed. Try to catch her as she jumps on the bed, call her off, and then treat her for getting off and coming when called. It's called behavior shaping. You'd think a dog might decide "hey, I can get a treat if I jump on the bed and make her call me" but that isn't how it works. It actually conditions the dog to break the habit of jumping up there if done consistently. There are tons of books on positive training methods and using only positive methods even to curb problem behaviors.

Ignoring is one of the best things you can do with a negative behavior. If a dog does a negative behavior for attention and you scold him/her, you are still giving attention even if it's negative. "Ignore the bad, reward the good" method has worked wonders in training my two and in changing undesirable behavior :).

edited to add: Also I should clarify too that when I say "treat" I mean reward. Both my dogs are food motivated and Tommy is very toy motivated, so I keep a couple toys that Tommy gets ONLY as reward toys, it's the only time he gets to play with them is when he is being rewarded for something, so to him they are extra special. The treats I use for reward are also only used as reward and never regularly given treats. It has to be special. A reward can be anything from a morsel of cheese to scratching in a favorite spot to receiving a favorite toy, but in all cases they are proven to work very well in training and modifying behavior. Most working dogs such as drug sniffing dogs, search and rescue, etc, have some special reward they are working for.

Alysser
04-10-2006, 07:09 PM
:D Good advice K9soul! Good luck to you and Zoe!

Also, I believe in postive training. If the dog gets off the bed and comes to you then giving he/she a treat is a good thing. They got a positive thing out of coming off the bed.

zoomer
04-10-2006, 07:09 PM
I'm not going to go into my thoughts on all of this as I've already posted my advice on using positive methods, but I want to clarify that I never said treat the dog after she pees on the bed, I said treat her for coming to you when called off the bed. Try to catch her as she jumps on the bed, call her off, and then treat her for getting off and coming when called. It's called behavior shaping. You'd think a dog might decide "hey, I can get a treat if I jump on the bed and make her call me" but that isn't how it works. It actually conditions the dog to break the habit of jumping up there if done consistently. There are tons of books on positive training methods and using only positive methods even to curb problem behaviors.

Ignoring is one of the best things you can do with a negative behavior. If a dog does a negative behavior for attention and you scold him/her, you are still giving attention even if it's negative. "Ignore the bad, reward the good" method has worked wonders in training my two and in changing undesirable behavior :).

edited to add: Also I should clarify too that when I say "treat" I mean reward. Both my dogs are food motivated and Tommy is very toy motivated, so I keep a couple toys that Tommy gets ONLY as reward toys, it's the only time he gets to play with them is when he is being rewarded for something, so to him they are extra special. The treats I use for reward are also only used as reward and never regularly given treats. It has to be special. A reward can be anything from a morsel of cheese to scratching in a favorite spot to receiving a favorite toy, but in all cases they are proven to work very well in training and modifying behavior. Most working dogs such as drug sniffing dogs, search and rescue, etc, have some special reward they are working for.

Nicely explained and I agree

Lori Jordan
04-12-2006, 01:24 PM
Off The Bed,On the Floor
If you want to get your dog off your bed,there are several steps you can take, A compromise is to put her bed on the floor of your room.She will be able to to smell you and hear your breathing,and will enjoy sharing your general space even if she can't share the bed itself.
For extra emotional comfort,put one of your old blankets or an old garment that you've worn in her bedding.Your scent will make her feel secure when she sleeps.

Lori Jordan
04-12-2006, 01:25 PM
Off The Bed,On the Floor
If you want to get your dog off your bed,there are several steps you can take, A compromise is to put her bed on the floor of your room.She will be able to to smell you and hear your breathing,and will enjoy sharing your general space even if she can't share the bed itself.
For extra emotional comfort,put one of your old blankets or an old garment that you've worn in her bedding.Your scent will make her feel secure when she sleeps.
this was a little article i found

Giselle
04-12-2006, 03:03 PM
Okay, from the viewpoint of an owner who literally has been there and done it all, just block off access to the danger zones! Giselle used to have a NASTY habit of urinating on beds. She would deliberately climb onto our beds to urinate when she felt the urge. She urinated on her *own* bed several times. It was odd because she didn't urinate on the carpeted or hardwood floor.

I personally speculate that it is not a psychological problem. It is the simple tendency for dogs to urinate in soft spots because, in the wild, the soft spots would absorb the urine most efficiently. However, because our house is primarily hardwood with some isolated carpeted areas, there are no soft spots for the dog to urinate on besides the bed. Originally, she urinated on her own bed, so we replaced it with a smaller, more compact bed with a lip so that she physically could not pee on it. Because we eliminated one soft spot, she began resorting to peeing on our beds. I can't take away her instinct so I did the next best thing: I simply blocked off access to our beds.

It's more of a potty training issue than anything. Honestly, go back to the basics. When you see her sniffing around, open the door and let her out.

Just close the door to your bedrooms and open the door to your backyard. It's as simple as that :)