Mini and Shadow had another fight...

[k9krazee]

-sigh- :( I don't know what to do anymore...

Last night my mom got home and I let the dogs all out to see her. Everybody greeted her and everything seemed fine. My mom and I were sitting on the porch and the dogs were all just standing in the driveway, all of a sudden Mini and Shadow started fighting. I have no idea how or why it happened, but it did. Shadow had Mini by the neck and shaking her around :( It was so awful, and it didn't help that the other three were trying to get in it too :rolleyes: So we were kicking dogs and my mom was screaming, all we wanted was to get Shadow off of Mini :( It felt like it lasted 15 minutes, but in reality I know it couldn't have been more than a couple. Finally I grabbed Shadow and somehow managed to get her off of Mini, but then Mini had Shadow by the face! I'm not even sure how we got them apart, if I would have been thinking I would have grabbed the hose, but I couldn't think and just wanted them to stop. There was blood everywhere, but the miracle was that they both had very very minimal injuries and also that my mom or I didn't get hurt. She did fall and bruised her behind :o Shadow has a bite wound on her lip and on her chin and Mini haa several on the inside of her cheeks, looks like it was from her own teeth. Mini's collar was also broken in the ordeal. This is the second time, in what? a week :( We CAN'T live like this! Good think we have extra antibiotics on hand :rolleyes:

What should we do?? They seem fine for a while and then all of a sudden they'll start fighting...there's never any food, toys, treats, anything involved. Most of the time we don't even see it coming. We are definately supervising them A LOT more when together, watching every move and for the most part we've been keeping them seperated. I really think its a dominance issue, but we've been trying to reinforce Shadow as the alpha, is that what we should be doing? Shadow gets her food first, always petted first, etc.

My mom has already been threatening to "get rid" :( of a couple of them....But she knows how hurt and upset I would be......I am so afraid to move out in the fall... :(

Any suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated, next time (which I REALLY hope there won't be) we might not be so lucky and have them both walk away with minimal injuries :(

[gemini9961]

Ashley I can relate to this. This is the exact reason why I joined PT, Sadie and Maggie were fighting. They still get into little scraps now and then, and same as you, food is not involved. It seems to be a dominance issue like you said. The only thing I can say is to keep reinforcing Shadow as alpha and just keep an eye on her and Mini. It's to the point with me that I can see when they are about to go at it and I tell them to quit and stand right by them and make them go away from each other. Mini is a female, right? Here is the link to my original post (http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=74506) and maybe it can help some. Hope it all works out for you. :)

[Dixieland Dancer]

Is there another post with more information on this problem? I don't think I'm getting the whole story from just this post.

What makes you think Shadow is the alpha? What breeds of dogs are we talking about? There just isn't enough information given to give a good solid idea of what is going on. If you do have posted on this before can you link to the original post?

[gemini9961]

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=100274

That might be of more help.

[k9krazee]

Shadow is our female Rottie, almost 10 years old. Mini is a 4 year old female (unaltered) Jack Russell.

I'm pretty sure Shadow is the alpha, the other 3 all look up to her and show signs of submission (licking her face, etc) and Shadow is the one to enforce the rules or let them know when playing gets out of hand...

I haven't really posted about it before. Its a relatively new problem. Mini will stalk Shadow throughout the house and then become extremely nervous and shakey. Sometimes we can tell that they are going to fight and can break it up, other times it happens because I guess we really aren't paying close enough attention.

I guess what I'm wondering is if there's hope to work this out or will we just have to always keep constant supervision of the two?

[dab_20]

I'm really sorry this happened again. :( I can't be of much help. Molli and Sam get in alot of fights but it's usually because food or toys are involved. I really hope you don't have to end up giving any dogs away. That would just be awful. Good luck.

[howlyip]

There are a lot more questions to be asked.
Are all females spayed??
Your Rotti is a bit old, how old is Mini??
Minis breed may have a lot to do with this, they don't know their size.
The fact that they are females is a huge part.

You cannot decide who is Alpha, except that you are Alpha, don't you try to figure out who should be and shouldn't. You are top dog, what you say goes.

Are they on leashes or free roaming??

How are they all greeted by you?? Must they obey a command to get some loving??

What more can you tell to the story??

[dab_20]

There are a lot more questions to be asked.
Are all females spayed??
Your Rotti is a bit old, how old is Mini??
Minis breed may have a lot to do with this, they don't know their size.
The fact that they are females is a huge part.

You cannot decide who is Alpha, except that you are Alpha, don't you try to figure out who should be and shouldn't. You are top dog, what you say goes.

Are they on leashes or free roaming??

How are they all greeted by you?? Must they obey a command to get some loving??

What more can you tell to the story??

k9krazee answered lots of those questions in the last post. Mini is 4 years old. And only Shadow is spayed.

[k9krazee]

Are all females spayed??

Mini is not at this point in time, Shadow is

Your Rotti is a bit old, how old is Mini??

Mini is four years old

Are they on leashes or free roaming??

Always free roaming

How are they all greeted by you?? Must they obey a command to get some loving??

They do, they have to sit first

...

[howlyip]

Right now I would say that Mini is coming into her own, being not spayed and 4 years old, she is staring to think about being top dog. Between 4 and 5, I have heard of this happening in smaller breeds.

I would think to get her spayed and work with her around Shadow on a leash. Mini, not Shadow on the leash. You need to be able to remind her what behavior is acceptable and what isn't. Especially if she is the one starting it.

Just my thoughts. Shadow could cause some serious damage.

[Dixieland Dancer]

It sounds to me like your Jack Russell (Parson Terrier) is being very true to her breed. I believe she has two things going against her at this point. 1. She is still intact (at this age spaying her will have no effect on this behavior) and 2. She has dominance aggression issues that are being fueled by her environment. Let me explain....

Jack Russell's are big dogs in a little body. They have a huge need for exercise. If their energy is not channeled properly they will find an outlet whether it's appropriate or not. They are fearless, have a very high threshold of pain and often challenge other dogs three times their size. They are extremely intelligent (it can be scary) and continue to test their limits throughout their life (15 years average). More often than not, they train their owners before the owner can train them. They can be very destructive if left unattended and unemployed. Most behavioral problems are due to a lack of alpha companionship, discipline, activity and exercise. It is very important to realize they require firm, consistent discipline. Their assertive nature must be understood and handled properly. A well behaved JRT is the one that was lucky enough to be exercised, well socialized, and trained. Unfortunately, shelters see a lot of JRT's turned in because of the aggressive side they can display when it is not channeled properly.

IMHO this dog is challenging your Rottie for alpha status even though it is displaying more dominance aggression than true alpha attributes. You are not helping the issue any by giving her "free roam" of the environment. This dog needs constant and firm obedience training along with lots of exercise from you. At minimum, it should always be on a short leash tag when around other dogs and never left around other dogs unsupervised until it learns some rules of proper canine behavior.

Most importantly, you need to affirm yourself as alpha over her. Do not look at this dog as a companion first, but as the dog she really is. She should NEVER be given anything without working for it first. Never let her on furniture (especially around the other dogs) and do not let her sleep in your bed (if she does). These are all things that enforce in her mind that she is a top dog. I can not stress enough the importance of exercise and working with this dog in obedience. She also needs a job to do such as agility or running or something that will stimulate her mentally. Never let your guard down with this high spirited little giant or you will be setting yourself up for some major heartbreak.

Which one of the dogs is the true alpha is not of consequence here. It is more important for you to establish yourself as the one in control over the entire pack. I'll stress again it is very important for the entire pack but especially the JRT to have alpha companionship, discipline, activity and exercise. That is not to say the JRT should be given more attention than the others. It is just saying the JRT is a higher maintenance dog. How you handle this will make all the difference in how the dogs interact in the future.

[howlyip]

Dixieland, even though she is older, spaying will still help, no it will not help right away as she has already started to try and do things a certain way, it is in her mind to do so, however my belief is that spaying a dog at any age, except perhaps over 10 or close to can help with issues such as these that Mini is displaying.
Reason being, get those hormones out of there, we all know how hormones can control our behaviour, just get them out of the way, let her body work them out of the system and she won't have to fight those to behave. Her mind and will to please won't have to work so hard against hormones that are saying otherwise.

Besides, it's better to get any dog spayed for the simple reason of health, too many propblems can occur later in life if not altered.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Dixieland, even though she is older, spaying will still help, no it will not help right away as she has already started to try and do things a certain way, it is in her mind to do so, however my belief is that spaying a dog at any age, except perhaps over 10 or close to can help with issues such as these that Mini is displaying.
Reason being, get those hormones out of there, we all know how hormones can control our behaviour, just get them out of the way, let her body work them out of the system and she won't have to fight those to behave.

I believe that all dogs should be spayed or neutered around 6 months of age unless they belong to reputable breeders who plan to use them for breeding. Note I said reputable breeders (not backyard breeders in it for the money). However, having this done to correct behavior issues after the dog matures IS futile. We are not talking about a human cycle where every 28 days you have hormones coming into play. Female dogs only come into a cycle every 6 to 12 months!

Regardless of wether you agree or don't, it is important the owner realize the real issue is that the dog needs stronger alpha companionship, discipline, activity and exercise. This dog's behaviors have more to do with these issues along with it's heredity and breed characteristics than the fact the dog is intact. These are issues that come into play every day of the dogs life and not just when it is in season.

That being said though, I do believe Mini IS NOT a good candidate for breeding with known dominance aggressive behaviors. For this reason, she should be spayed.

[k9krazee]

I do have 3 (Jack Russells), so I'm not a complete moron when it comes to the breed. I know about the activity level, "little dog syndrome", etc. They all get PLENTY of exercise, I'm not sure if I can fit more in, lol, and I mean bikeriding, walking, running off-leash in parks plus we have a huge yard and plenty of squirrel chasing. And also plenty of mind stimulation, they all (okay, minus Micki) enjoy backyard agility as often as possible and I enjoy teaching them random tricks and such.


She should NEVER be given anything without working for it first.

And I do agree with that, we have also recently started NILIF. Its really hard when there are 6 people in my family and trying to get everybody to abide by the rules all the time. We are working on it.


That being said though, I do believe Mini IS NOT a good candidate for breeding with known dominance aggressive behaviors. For this reason, she should be spayed.

*Prepares to be bashed* We (as in my parents thought it was a grand idea) actually did breed (yes irresponsibly and stupidly) Mini when she was 2 years old, we have her daughter Kyra...she does have an appointment to get spayed though - June 5th.


I just wanted to add that Mini is GREAT with all other dogs, she is one we can take everywhere because she does get along with everybody. And even in the house, it's JUST Shadow whom she doesn't get along with SOMETIMES. Its not like they're out to get each other all of the time, only once in a while (purely coincidence, IMO, that they actually fought twice in the same week)...


And I wanted to Thank everybody for thier concern/responses :)

[catnapper]

When I had a situation like this - when one lashed out at another without any warning, it ended up that Sammie was VERY sick with cancer and we had no idea. She was apparently in pain and all Nicki had to do was look at her and Sammie would be lunging. I feel AWFUL for not recognizing Sammie's illness - not that its an excuse, but hubby's mom was dying of cancer at the same time, and we were a little preoccupied with MIL (who died two days before Sammie did :( )

Have both dogs been ot the vet for a thorough checkup? One might be sick and you might not know it. From what I've heard since my experience with Sammie, this scenario is rather common when one dog is sick withotu the parents knowing it.

[Dixieland Dancer]

*Prepares to be bashed* We (as in my parents thought it was a grand idea) actually did breed (yes irresponsibly and stupidly) Mini when she was 2 years old, we have her daughter Kyra...she does have an appointment to get spayed though - June 5th.


Sometimes I really hate trying to give advice in type written response and not face to face. What you are really trying to say does not seem to come across the right way. :( I did not intend to make anyone feel bad. At some point in most of our lives we don't know any better. For instance, I got my first Golden from a puppy mill store. Would I do that again, NO but I didn't know any better then. I'm sure in the future you will be responsible in your breeding if you decide to do it again.

[beyond_me]

I agree with getting her spayed. I know it will not solve everything, but it helps. When I got my Am. Staff fixed she was a year old and had just gotten over her heat. I totally saw a change in her. We had christmas at my house and she was happy but calmed down a lot fastest after she got spayed. She is still an Am Staff, (I don't have to say more) but it did help.
Also I didn't read everything, but they might have done stuff to each other earlier in the day that you didn't see and they just kept a grudge. I mean did you always get along with your siblings? Dogs just use their teeth.

[beyond_me]

Also I had wanted our Boxer to be the alpha. She is older and I wanted her to teach the Am Staff. We gave the boxer food first, let her walk though the door first, all of that, but the Am Staff is the alpha. She just has a stronger personallity and the boxer let her. I personally though the boxer would never let her, but it works. She was alpha with her jack russel brother growing up, but I think she likes not being alpha now!!! :)

[howlyip]

Good response beyond_me, you can't decide who is alpha, the dogs figure that out, just make sure you are the alpha over everybody so no matter what they will all listen to you.