Behavior Sadness

[dukedogsmom]

Kay and I are both clueless as to how to fix this problem. With Duke's age, he's gotten a little grouchy. He's never liked Nala and now doesn't like Kiara, either. He also snapped at Kay one day when she touched him but I still think he might have been sore there as he's never aggressive like that. He's never bitten anyone, even a stranger. They have to be separated at all times. Duke even jumped on Nebo and Kiara at the beach. I was so sad I just sat on a bench and cried. I couldn't enjoy being with Amy and Nebo. Does anyone know what we can do? I don't want to visit Kay without Duke. He and Simba are such good buddies and he loves the beach.

[robinh]

I would check with your vet. He may be in quite a bit of pain and that could cause his attitude. When our Peach got older she got kind of snappy at everybody. Even Max whom she adored. They put her on rimadyl - a pain reliever and it really helped ease some of her discomfort so she wasn't so grumpy.

Give him a big hug for me.

[Dixieland Dancer]

I agree, you should have the vet check Duke out just to eliminate a medical condition. Talk the behavior out with the vet and tell them exactly what has been happening. Especially since he snapped at Kay too when she touched him.

It is not uncommon for older dogs not to want anything to do with younger more playful pups. Especially if they are much bigger like Nala. Kiara is definitely a very high energy dog and Duke just may not want to be bothered. Simba is more his speed because Simba is also more layed back. Don't force the issue. They may never be "best friends" but they can learn to tolerate each other.

My two goldens before Dixie and Dusty were Taffey and Butch. Taffey was 7 when I brought Butch home. She really wasn't wild about him at all. First because she was use to being an only dog and second, he was all pup with lots of energy to spare! She would growl at him every time he came near. It was her way of saying "Hey kid, back off...I'm still the queen around here!" He didn't listen all the time and had to take his little punishment from her in the form of a snip or two. Never any blood drawn. It wasn't a fight, it was more of a warning. This is how dogs communicate. After she realized he wasn't going anywhere, she learned to "tolerate" him being around. When I wasn't watching, she would even be a little motherly to him!

After verifying Duke doesn't have any medical conditions that are causing him pain, if the dogs are together, don't expect them to be best of friends. Unless you have a full fledge fight on your hands, let them work it out. They will soon learn to "tolerate" each others company. The only disadvantage I see you having is because they are not together all the time. Each time they get together, it is possible they may need to establish the pecking order all over again. Realize this is normal dog behavior.

If your not comfortable letting them sort it out, then you will need to keep them separated by using leashes or not having them together at all. Just make sure to rule out any medical issues first though.

[Kfamr]

The thing about it though, I barely touched Duke. BARELY at all.. and he snapped twice at me. It scared me a lot. I think the factors in him snapping at me were: 1.) He was by his mom. 2.) He was on the couch.

I can understand him not liking Nala because if he snaps or growls or does something SHE WON'T put up with it and will go right back at him.

The thing about Kiara is she avoids him as best she can. She could just be simply walking by and completely ignoring him and he'll go out of his way to snap at her. She's afraid of him, maybe he senses that?


Another thing that i've mentioned to Valerie is the fact that my dogs are already is a well situation "pack" - Simba is alpha, Nala is second down, and Kiara is last. All three know this very well as well as the fact that i'm alpha over them all.

The girls respect Simba, Kiara respects Nala. I think Duke just wants to dominate them all.. including Simba and that would explain why he tries the stuff he does with Simba. Simba doesn't care though because Simba KNOWS he's king. Nala doesn't want to give up her role and Kiara is just so submissive and scared of everything.


I really don't like the idea of letting them "work it out" - with Nala i'm pretty sure one of them would end up getting hurt. I wouldn't be able to forgive myself, Duke, or Nala if either of them got hurt. With Kiara, she's not willing to "fight back" and Duke has "put her in her place" many of times, all she does is cower down or try to get away from him.

We usually keep either Duke locked up or both of my girls locked up, and I hate doing that.

Who knows.. why are dogs so confusing sometimes.

[lizbud]

Maybe it's just the difference in their ages. Duke is an older dog. He probably has aches & pains more often. Think of them
in terms of human years. http://www.dogyears.com/

Most dogs are masters at hiding pain from us.

[mruffruff]

This sounds like the problems I have been having with Samson.

Scruffy was my dog before I got Samson. Both were about 8 when Samson came to stay. Within a year, Samson asserted his dominance and became alpha. No problem for Scruffy or Bear (now at RB). Samson slept on the bed with me and was treated as alpha. Scruffy had a leg removed so he couldn't jump up anyway. Samson left Bear alone; Bear was a senior citizen and was blind so he got special privileges.

When Bear died, Samson became very protective of me. He would growl at any dog that came into the same room he and I were in. No yelling, squirting or restraining would get through to him. If Scruffy came through the doggy door, Samson would attack and pin Scruffy to the floor by his neck.

About a month ago, I kicked him out of bed. Literally. It was as hard on me as it was on him. For the first week, I put him on a leash. There were a lot of interruptions to my sleep, but he inally got the message that he had to sleep in HIS bed, not mine.

Bottom line, he's not growling at Scruffy as much. I think he had to realize I was alpha to him. He listens better and he's not as cocky in his general attitude. And I actually caught Scruffy and Samson sleeping on the same loveseat last night.

Does this sound like Duke at all?

Mary

[Glacier]

I'd definately get him checked out by a vet. Goldie used to be aggressive towards the other dogs. She would lash out with no pattern. I could never figure out when she was going to be nasty and when she would get along so she ended up very isolated and not a happy dog. Then she started snapping at me occasionally. She never bit, but she would snap at my hands or a brush.

It turns out that she was in pain, but not constant pain. She has an old hip injury that was never treated, probably kicked when she was a stray. Certain movements and pressure points caused her pain. When that happened she lashed out at whoever or whatever was closest to her. She's been on Meloxicam since last summer and she's a different dog. She's happy and playful. She lives with Chase in her pen and occasionally a couple other male dogs. She hasn't had a fight in ages. She still hates Preacher, but that has nothing to do with pain. It's a mutual dislike that has been there forever.

Meloxicam is the human version of Metacam. It's much cheaper than Metacam for long term use. Goldie gets a liver panel every six months to make sure it's not hurting her liver. So far it's not., Her blood work is great--she's due for a repeat on Monday. Frankly, even if it does start to affect her liver, she's staying on it or something else. I'd rather have her live a shorter, but happy life than a long, miserable one.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by Kfamr
The thing about it though, I barely touched Duke. BARELY at all.. and he snapped twice at me. It scared me a lot. I think the factors in him snapping at me were: 1.) He was by his mom. 2.) He was on the couch.

I really don't like the idea of letting them "work it out" - with Nala i'm pretty sure one of them would end up getting hurt. I wouldn't be able to forgive myself, Duke, or Nala if either of them got hurt. With Kiara, she's not willing to "fight back" and Duke has "put her in her place" many of times, all she does is cower down or try to get away from him.

More information = more pieces of the puzzle put together! I would still have Duke checked for possible pain. The rest of this is with the assumption no medical issues exist.

Being by his mom is no excuse. Being on the couch is no excuse. How did both of you handle this situation when it occurred? Especially Valerie!

I can see the point in not letting them work it out since they are not together all the time and this would be an ongoing issue everytime they get together again. I personally would not separate them. I would just keep them on a leash so quick corrections could be make if things become heated. Separating them can cause Duke to feel like he "won" if Kays are separated and can cause him to be more aggressive if he is separated. Keep them together but in a very controlled environment. Kay, I am more familiar with you around dogs than Valerie so I know you can do this! It is important to establish humans as alpha over all the dogs.

Letting Duke know this is unexceptable behavior and giving him a consequence when it happens is vital. I would probably put him on a Down stay (a submissive position) for a substantial period of time while he can see the other dogs having fun. No couch... the hard floor! Ignore him for any whining or sympathy he may do or want in the down. My only recognition would be to reinforce the down if necessary.

I would also be quick to recognize any acceptable behavior and reward him appropriately around the other dogs. He needs to learn commands that reinforce good behavior and penalize bad behavior.

Valerie, in addition to the above question, has Duke ever displayed this behavior in his younger years? Was he properly socialized with other dogs? Is he ever around other dogs other than Kay's dogs? How does he act then if he is? Does Duke see himself as the alpha in your house (including Alpha over you)?

Let's start here and then see what we can come up with.

[dukedogsmom]

I'm afraid he might see himself as alpha over me though I don't let him get away with anything. A lot of it stems from the abuse my ex gave him when he was a puppy. He still hasn't forgotten that and it's been 11 1/2 years. So, I've felt horribly guilty and have spoiled him rotten. He's just shown this aggression I guess since I got up with Kay. I wonder why? I used to take him to doggie day care for all day fun and I never had any problems. He had a blast. Now, I'd be scared to do that. I thank everyone for your help. Glacier, I'm going to make an appointment for him soon and ask the vet about that medicine. He's on Rimadyl but I think it's not doing as well. I've noticed him having some difficulty in getting up. He's really slow about it so I know he's got to be in pain. Dixieland Dancer, I think keeping them(at least Duke and Nala) leashed in the same room is a great idea. They would have to be short leashes and they both give each other the evil eye. Neither one wants to back down. Does that mean that Nala should be in the down position also? I've sent an email to Caesar Milan(dog whisperer) but haven't heard back from him yet.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Valerie,
I don't have time to go into detail now but I will. About Nala... who is the aggressor / instigator? Does Duke look at Nala in a certain way as to provoke her or warn her to stay away from him? Your last post certainly did shed light on the fact that Duke is in pain of some sort. I would take him to the vet if the meds he is on are not working. More later.

[dukedogsmom]

Duke challenges almost all dogs now. He stares at them and sometimes shows his teeth. He even did it to Robilee's Katie and he got more than he bargained for. She didn't hurt him at all but I think he was surprised by it.

[caseysmom]

Maybe you could try some glucosomene for his aches and pains. Casey acted this same way with our new pup...it took 6 weeks for her to accept him, just think of a crogey older man who doesn't want to be bothered with the pesky young uns.

He looks so sweet in all the pictures I am sure he just is feeling his age...at 44 I am a whole lot less patient than I use to be.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
I'm afraid he might see himself as alpha over me though I don't let him get away with anything. A lot of it stems from the abuse my ex gave him when he was a puppy. He still hasn't forgotten that and it's been 11 1/2 years. So, I've felt horribly guilty and have spoiled him rotten.

Valerie, You have to realize that Duke is getting up there in age and has aches and pains and does see himself as the King. That in itself is not a bad thing. It is however when you state he is alpha over you too. You must let him get away with things (at least some of the time) in order for him to feel alpha over you. That is a bad thing.

I don't know the whole story but you mentioned he was abused by your ex when he was a pup. Because of that, you tend to over protect him and spoil him rotten. There is nothing wrong with that unless you let him get away with unacceptable behavior (even if it's only from time to time). You still never mentioned how you reacted when Duke snapped at Kay. I would also be curios to know what you do when Duke stares at other dogs and shows his teeth.

If Duke was my dog, there are a few things I would try. First, he needs to realize he is NOT alpha over you. Second, he needs consistent discipline. Unacceptable behavior is ALWAYS addressed and not just some of the time. His abuse as a pup is sad, however, it is in the past and is not happening now. Don't confuse sympathy of his past and spoiling him rotten with love and whats best for him now! Just as in children, you can create monsters if you spoil them rotten without giving them firm discipline also. I'm not talking abuse in discipline. Simply letting the dog know what the word NO is goes a long way. Dixie and Dusty both know the tone of my voice with a firm NO means stop or else a consequence is coming.

About your visits with Kays dogs there.... Nala is not your concern. If Nala steps out of line with Duke then it is Kay's job to correct her. I believe she has a firm handle on her dogs realizing she is alpha over them. Your concern is with Duke! You need to constantly be on guard around him with other dogs. Again, if it was my dog, I wouldn't separate them but would have Duke on a short lead and maintain him at all times in a down, sit or a heel. With him being on lead and in a constant maintained state, he doesn't have to feel like he needs to protect you. I also think he will feel more protected and secure that nobody is going to hurt him, relieving him of undo worry. He would not be allowed on the couch or any other place of elevated status in the presence of others. Constantly tell him "Easy" when he looks at Nala or any other dog that is near by. Realize this is a training opportunity and reward him for acceptable behavior. Inappropriate behavior means no reward... Acceptable behavior means reward. I believe Duke and you will be more happy having him under control before something happens than just waiting for something to happen and being regretful and feeling like crying about it afterwards.

The Key to all your problems comes with Duke realizing YOU ARE ALPHA...NO QUESTION ABOUT IT!!

[dukedogsmom]

I probably reacted in the wrong way when he snapped at Kay. From watching Caesar Millan, I've already learned that you shouldn't comfort or nurture them at times like that but at the time, I thought he was hurt so I told him it was alright and petted him. Next time I go over there, I'll be really interested to try out what you've suggested. Normally, I just turn him loose as soon as we get there. Thanks for all your help.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by dukedogsmom
I probably reacted in the wrong way when he snapped at Kay. From watching Caesar Millan, I've already learned that you shouldn't comfort or nurture them at times like that but at the time, I thought he was hurt so I told him it was alright and petted him.

What made you think he was hurt? It is my understanding he snapped at Kay unprovoked.