the girls aren't getting along

**lovemyshiba** · 01-14-2004, 11:28 PM

My girls (Abbey, 2 year old beagle and Jada, 2 year old Rottie) have been having some issues lately.
About a month ago, they had a little tiff over a toy--I yelled at them, they stopped, and the toy went in the garbage.
When one of them is getting attention, the other cannot handle it--if Jada is sitting by me, Abbey has to come over and butt her nose in, and vice versa.

But they are worse with my husband. Tonight, we were sitting on the couch, and he had one hand on each dog, petting them and giving them both attention. All of a sudden, Abbey glared at Jada, and lunged for her. We were both there, and jumped up right away to get between them, and they wouldn't stop. My husband had Abbey on the steps, and I was trying to get Jada into the kitchen, and they kept trying to go after each other again. Jada even tried to get me as I was trying to get her into the kitchen.
We got them separated, and they calmed down, and were fine in a few minutes.

I know they are trying to fight for second in line (Kito is our alpha, and that isn't challenged).

I have experienced fights with the dogs in the past, but never to the point that they kept trying to lunge at each other after separated. I don't know if Jada was trying to lunge at Abbey though, because she thought Abbey may have been hurting her daddy, and Abbey may have thought Jada was hurting mommy.

It just makes me nervous--I need some advice on how to prevent this behavior in the future.

They both have to sit before being petted, as well as before eating, going out, and everything else. They don't fight over anything else (i.e. bed space, treats, food), just over attention.

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

**captain** · 01-14-2004, 11:58 PM

I wish I had the answers for you on this one, but I reckon Mike or Molly (Mugsy) would be able to give you some ideas.

Maybe PM mugsy ...?

{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}

I can tell you that Ruby does that to Captain - he is the alpha male, she is the female trying to be the alpha .......... but Captain just walks away when she gets the growling going ....... and ignores her.

**aly** · 01-15-2004, 12:17 AM

Two females of the same age is a very very difficult situation. I know it can be costly, but I think you could benefit from a session or two with a behaviorist who can observe the situation before giving advice.

I hope that you can work things out because I know fighting animals is a very stressful thing!

**jenluckenbach** · 01-15-2004, 04:31 AM

Having never lived with dogs I'd like to post this as a question:
Would allowing them a fight it out once help them settle the issue of who is the boss and lead to further peace? or doesn't it work like that?
(I only ask because we must let the cats' work out there own issues........don't jump down my throat as if I am stupid if this is wrong)

**clara4457** · 01-15-2004, 06:55 AM

Oh Emily, I really feel for you. As you know, I went through this with Leo and Penny Lane about 6 months ago. I also think getting a behaviorist out would be a good idea. I am getting ready to leave for the vet's (just a wellness check for Penny), but I will dig out the list my behaviorist gave me and post the highlights when I get back.

Quick suggestion - get on Patricia McConnells website http://www.dogsbestfriendtraining.com/home.php and see about her booklet "Feeling Outnumbered, How to Manage and Enjoy Your Multi-Dog Household" or her Dog-Dog Agression Video Set.

**clara4457** · 01-15-2004, 08:56 AM

Okay - here are some of the highlights to Penny Lane's behavior modification - it might help you as well. Some of the items are for Penny's nervousness (I tried to leave those out), so might not apply to Abbey or Jada.

"Keep a leash or leash tab attached to Leo and Penny when they are together. If you need to get control you can do so without reaching for their face or neck. This is your lifeline."

"Give interactive toys that they will have to work at in order to get something in return. This will have to be supervised so there is no opportunity for competitiion of resources"

"Pick up all toys and only leave a few out at a time, on your terms. Rotate the tyos and always make them work for the toy before you give it to them. (if they are showing an interest in it"

"Begin implementing "TIME OUTS" for negative outburst or behavior. Growl = 3-5 minutes in crate; any escalation = 5 - 7 minutes in crate; altercation = 10 minutes in crate. Do not threaten a "TIME OUT". Say it and do it.

"Try not to disipline Leo in front of Penny Lane. I believe she has built a alliance with you and feels she needs to be involved with Leo when you are involved with Leo. Always keep them checking in with you and reward for complying with verbal praise and food rewards"

"Keep a hands off approach while they are together. Give one on one attention when they are not in view of each other"

"Do not allow them on beds or furniture. These areas are considered to them higher status areas. They get confused and territorial if one or the other are allowed in these areas."

"As we discussed this is a life-time management program. Penny Lane suffers from a generalized anxiety disorder and inter-dog aggression concerns within the social dynamics of the family. What you are doing is managing this situation to the best of your ability while maintaining the high quality of life for everyone involved"

From my observations - they have finally worked out their hierarchy. Leo is alpha and Penny is next. She defers to him most of the time, but occasionally tries to increase her position. I know you are concerned with the fact that they continued to lunge for each other after the squabble was over, but dogs adrenalin flows for a good 10 minutes after an altercation (which is why you give them a 10 minute time out in the crate). I also have to watch the doors, as they continually try to body block each other to get in the door first. I am continuing to train them to sit and wait at the door and enter one at a time with permission.

Watch for signals. Side long glances at the other, licking lips, tensing of the body, flattened ears, that kind of thing.

I wish you all the best, and I hope this helps some. If you need to search for a behaviorist, let me know. I can call mine and see if she has any suggestions.

**K9soul** · 01-15-2004, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by jenluckenbach
Having never lived with dogs I'd like to post this as a question:
Would allowing them a fight it out once help them settle the issue of who is the boss and lead to further peace? or doesn't it work like that?
(I only ask because we must let the cats' work out there own issues........don't jump down my throat as if I am stupid if this is wrong)

Some dog tifs are more noise than anything. Most commonly (but of course not ALWAYS), fights between two males are that way. One generally backs down and their positions are established. Female fights though tend to be quite a bit more dangerous, especially two females fighting over an alpha position in their "pack."

In any serious dogfight case though, I'd definitely be afraid to let them settle it themselves. A bad bite to the face could mean the loss of an eye or ear, or even worse depending how serious it is.

I don't really have actual advice to offer in this case since I personally haven't been in this situation before (at least not yet), but wanted to try to answer jen's question if I could.

Good luck with your girls!

**lovemyshiba** · 01-15-2004, 10:52 AM

Thank you all so very much.

Jen--
I appreciate your input, and was thinking the same thing myself. However, once when Kito and Abbey got into a fight, Abbey ended up with a big chunk taken out of her shoulder, and many stitches. I really don't want to have to go through something like that again. When they just have a little argument, I let them go, as long as it doesn't get nasty.

The nastiness has only escalated recently. They have been a little grumpy toward each other lately, but no fights until recently.

I am going to speak with my vet, as well as a woman I know here who is involved with PAWS, our local rescue, and see who they recommend.

Clara--
those are wonderful tips, and I do notice those warning signs--Abbey gets a very distinct look on her face when she is getting mad--it is very obvious. Neither of them are allowed on the furniture, but I do notice them trying to push each other down the stairs at feeding time (I get the food ready downstairs, and Abbey and Riley eat down there, with Jada and Kito eating upstairs--should that be changed??). I did put them in a time out last night, until they settled, and everything seemed fine then, and everyone is getting along today.

They do not stay together when we are not home, so they are supervised when together, at all times.

We made a mistake last night though--neither girl was wearing her collar, and it made it virtually impossible for me to get them apart--especially since I was trying to get Jada, and she doesn't even have a tail to grab.

Thanks for all of the advice, I really appreciate it, and I will keep everyone updated on the situation.

**lovemyshiba** · 01-15-2004, 11:31 AM

Clara--
I think I may order that book anyway, it looks interesting!!
Thanks for the link!!

Anway, I believe Abbey may be the troublemaker. She just went after Riley a little bit ago, and no one fights with little Riley--they just don't.

I think I will schedule a checkup for her, just to rule out anything medical, as well.

**Pam** · 01-15-2004, 11:36 AM

Emily, even though I was not able to be of help, this thread has made me feel good. As always, Pet Talkers are there to share knowledge and offer support. I do hope that you can find a way to work through this dilemma. I hope it goes away as quickly as it came. (((hugs))) Your 4 are all so very special and I love hearing about them all!

**clara4457** · 01-15-2004, 11:57 AM

Glad my situation could be of help a little. I love Dr. McConnell's books and booklets, mainly because she is very aware of the fact that the way we interact with our dogs needs to benefit us as well. So while many behaviorists think we give our pets too much attention, she understands that our need to give them attention is necessary for our own well being. She also writes for the average person rather than for people with degrees in zoology.

I just ordered her new book "The Other End Of the Leash" and have just started reading it. I also ordered a 3 tape set of her 3 day dog behavior seminar which has a section on Dog on Dog aggression. It sounds just fascinating. When I am done with it, I can loan it to you if you want.

She also has a Saturday morning radio show on public radio called "Calling all Pets", where people call in with questions about all types of animals. If you don't have public radio, you can download the show from HERE

Other behaviorists I like are Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar, but Ms. McConnell is my favorite.

**jenluckenbach** · 01-15-2004, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by K9soul
but wanted to try to answer jen's question if I could.

Good luck with your girls!

Thank you

I think I vote for the behaviorist.
Best of luck.

**Cincy'sMom** · 01-15-2004, 10:31 PM

I'm sorry I can't offer any advice Emily. Carrie would be another good person to PM though. She always is a help with the behavior issues.

Hope things work out with the girls. My guess is once they figure out who the alpha female, it willbe okay. Getting there may not be the easiest though.... Good luck!

**Shelteez2** · 01-16-2004, 12:04 AM

I think others have given you good advice, and hopefully you can find a trainer/behaviorist you like if you choose to go that route.

I'd like to add something about when the dogs try to nose in on each other's petting time. I think it's unacceptable. If I am petting one dog and the other comes over and trys to nudge its way in it gets ignored. If they still persist they are put in a sit/down stay until I am done, and are then released with pets. I am alpha and I decide who gets my attention and when.

Oh and a tip for breaking up dogs fights (even reaching in for a collar can still put you at risk) reach from behind and link your hands together under the belly and pull apart by going straight backwards then zig zag from side to side as you go back. You zig zag to prevent the dog from trying to turn and get at you. This of course works when you have two people (one for each dog). Hopefully though you won't have to do that again.

Good luck!!

**micki76** · 01-16-2004, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by lovemyshiba
Clara--
I think I may order that book anyway, it looks interesting!!
Thanks for the link!!

Anway, I believe Abbey may be the troublemaker. She just went after Riley a little bit ago, and no one fights with little Riley--they just don't.

I think I will schedule a checkup for her, just to rule out anything medical, as well.

A check up is a good idea, although Abbey is probably just feeling like if she doesn't rule everyone with an iron fist, she'll lose her position and become the lowest ranking dog in the pack.

IMO they should never be allowed to work it out on their own. As you stated there will inevitably be vet bills, but the main reason for me is that I am the alpha. What I say goes. I say no fighting, so no fighting. I think it's always best to treat the first female as the alpha if they haven't yet established that themselves. In our house, no one ever has attempted to challenge Ankeo. She's obviously the Queen bee, but she defers to me, the Alpha. Hardly anyone defers to Michael.