Sheltie

[Dave&Cat]

Good morning;
How is every one today,? my wife and I are looking for a Sheltie, Two reasons. First- We are the care takers of my father he is 82 years old.
My father lost his terrier because of health and he is " Lost " Secondly My wife would love to have a dog
OH then there is me. <gg> I have owned every big dog known to man and my children ended up with them.
I am aware of the care and maint. of a long hair, I always ended up being the one to care for them. It's kind of satisfying, they were beautiful animals.

also I would like to have a registered animal, with papers. I will have her fixed, but after her first litter. I also need a breeder for that littter.

Dave and Cat Horton

[clara4457]

I am afraid your not going to find many people on this board that would agree with your plan of breeding your dog at least once, myself included. I would say 99.9% of the people that frequent this board believe that indiscriminate breeding when there are so many homeless dogs and cats in the world is irresponsible.

Also any reputable breeder would never sell a breeding pup to someone who is not experienced with the breed. Most reputable breeders require a spay/neuter contract to sell pups deemed "pet quality" rather than "show quality". So that leaves you with buying a pup from a backyard breeder (major health concerns) or a puppy mill (major moral and health concerns). And if you think that cute puppy in the pet store or in the ad in the paper is absolutely purebred and healthy, you could be in for a rude awakening. Check out this article on the Humane Society web site: http://www.hsus.org/ace/11797

I am not trying to give you a hard time - I am just trying to educate in the dangers and ramifications of buying a puppy and then breeding it.

That being said, I wonder why you would want a puppy in the first place. If you have an elderly father that needs a companion, a sheltie is a good choice, but I would highly recommend an older dog. Shelties especially as pups are very high energy and need a great deal of exercise. That is why they make such great agility dogs. You could find yourself with a dangerous situation with a puppy underfoot. She could easily trip your father with her puppy exuberance. An older dog on the other hand would be more mellow and gentle. He/she would be happy with less exercise and would be content to lay at your fathers feet being petted for hours on end.

I sincerely hope you think about everything I said and make the right decision.

[Dave&Cat]

Thank you for your useful information. I appreciate your advice.

My intentions for the dog is to have as a pet. Not to breed. I do not believe in spaying a female until after she has had a litter of puppy's. It has to do with health reasons and mainly weight reasons for the animal. My wife grew up raising and training dogs for different purposes. We have finally gotten to the place where she would have time and space to train a dog. That is the reason for a puppy.

I personally, about 9 years ago, left the dog circuit due to personal health reasons. Severe heart problems (heartattacks, bypass surgery, etc.) prevent me from returning. I have lost contact with many friends. I was hoping to find a breeder locally, or somewhat close to being local. My wife has expressed her desire to have a Sheltie and that is why I am looking for this particular breed. If your familiar with the circuit, I was Dave Horton's Sharpening Service. I traveled, Nebraska, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, and then back home to South Dakota (on occasion). Because of my health, I honestly cannot remember many of the names of my friends. But they may remember me.

Your children are cute!

[clara4457]

Yes - I love my pups. They give me great joy. I am very glad to know that you and your wife are experienced with dogs. It makes me feel a great deal better. So many times of this board we get posts from people that are looking to get a dog and breed it to make some extra money. It makes my blood boil.

I have to disagree (respectively of course) about allowing a dog to have one litter for health reasons. Recent veterinary studies have proven that spaying before the first heat is healthier for the animal. Dr. Dick Rosebrock wrote a great article about it. Here is the website:

http://www.danesonline.com/earlyspayneuter.htm

Whatever you decide - I wish you the best of luck! And you are right - Shelties are wonderful dogs.

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by Dave&Cat


My intentions for the dog is to have as a pet. Not to breed. I do not believe in spaying a female until after she has had a litter of puppy's. It has to do with health reasons and mainly weight reasons for the animal.

You want your dog to be unhealthy and fat?

Not spaying a dog before her first heat increases the likelihood of cancer, and letting your dog breed GREATLY increases her risk of cancer. As for weight, it will change absolutely nothing except the fact that your dog will be alot fatter for the months that it's pregnant, and about a month or two afterwards.

I'd suggest finding a reputable breeder, but I'm afraid that you'll never find one that will let actually let you irresponsibly backyard breed. You'd have to go to a backyard breeder, and then you'd just be starting the process of more unhealthy dogs. most BYB's don't register, and don't have papers. Most don't have a pedrigree, and most come from bad lines; usually other backyard breeders, petshops, or puppy mills. So good luck...I guess.

Just some statistics about our overpopulation problem (And yes, I AM trying to deter you from your intentions as 99.9% of ANY loving pet board will):

~An estimated eight to ten million dogs are euthanized in shelters each year. Millions are abandoned, only to suffer from illness or injury before dying. That's about one every 4 seconds.
~Most of the dogs in shelters are from backyard breeders.
~Over 56% of dogs and puppies entering shelters are killed. (Most of these dogs and puppies go to "good" homes).
~It costs U.S. taxpayers an estimated $2 billion each year to round up, house, kill, and dispose of homeless animals (So you may be adding to the taxes by breeding).
~For every human, there are about ten dogs. There are about 6 billion people in this world. Should every person own ten dogs?
~As many as 25% of dogs entering shelters each year are purebreds.
~Every unspayed female pet potentially contributes to the problem.

Spay/neuter Myths
Myth: It is better to allow your female to have one litter before she is spayed.
Fact: The best time to spay your female is before her first estrous cycle. Early spaying greatly reduces the incidence of mammary cancer.
Myth: Preventing animals from having litters is unnatural.
Fact: We've already interfered with nature by domesticating dogs and cats. In doing so, we helped create dog and cat overpopulation. We must now take responsibility for solving it.

Myth: We don't need to neuter males because they aren't the ones having the litters.
Fact: It takes two to tango! In fact, one unaltered male can be responsible for impregnating dozens of females.

Myth: Spaying and neutering is expensive.
Fact: The cost of surgery may compare with the cost of raising a litter of puppies and kittens. Spaying/neutering also saves taxpayer dollars. On average, it costs $100 to capture, house, feed, and eventually kill a homeless animal - a cost that comes out of all of our pockets

Myth: Animals, dogs in particular, are less protective after sterilization and show other negative behavioral changes.
Fact: Any changes brought about by spaying/neutering are generally positive. Neutered male cats usually stop territorial spraying. Neutered dogs and cats fight less and are less likely to become lost due to straying from home in search of a mate. Spayed animals do not go into heat or need to be confined indoors to avoid pregnancy. All altered animals remain protective and loyal to their guardians.

Myth: Animals become fat and lazy after spaying and neutering.
Fact: Usually, the only way animals become fat and "lazy" is by guardians overfeeding and under exercising them.

Facts about letting a dog give birth before being spayed
~A female spayed AFTER sexual maturity has a 70% chance of developing mammary cancer. By having a litter of puppies, her chaces of cancer are increased greatly by even more.
~Contrary to popular myths, there are absolutely NO benefits, medical or otherwise, in letting your female dog have even one heat cycle or litter before she is spayed.
~Your spayed female will be healthier. She will avoid the risks of pregnancy and uterine infections, and she will be far less likely to develop mammary and uterine cancer in life.
~A dog that isn't spayed before sexual maturity has a very good chance of developing the life-threatening uterine infection. Risk greatly increased after having puppies.

I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to get you to understand that your dog will be subject to all of these. A well-bred dog will be healthier and may not get these problems, of course, and that is why reputable breeders are picky about which dogs they breed. However, because you will most likely choose from a BYB who's dogs will most likely be unhealthy with unhealthy lines already and are much more suscpetible to cancer, tumors, etc, than so will your dog. Just think about it please.

A reputable breeder:
Breeds ONLY for the improvement of the breed, and NO other reason.
Has pedigreed dogs with papers, and the puppies should be registered.
Has more than one breeding pair. (4-12 dogs).
Doesn't breed more than two breeds (Infact two is pushing it if you ask me).
Makes sure their dogs are health certified (hips, elbows, eyes, etc.).
Breeds purebred dogs.
Discontinues any line that shows any sign of illness.
Keeps their dog competitive in shows such as conformation, agility, diving, flyball etc.
Breeds on demand and/or has the puppies reserved before he/she breeds.
Takes the time that is nesecarry to be sure that his/her dogs match up personality-wise before breeding.
Has their dogs checked atleast twice a year.
Makes sure that their dogs are socialized with other dogs and people.
Are responsible owners as well as breeders (takes dogs for walks, keeps them on a healthy diet etc).

Are you willing to do all of these?

[wolfsoul]

Cons
http://www.hhhumane.org/spay.html
http://www.cspca.ie/petcare/spayneuter.html
http://www.goodpooch.com/ISSUES/stopbreeding.htm - An interesting fact in this one. 65% of dogs come from "one time" breeding. Gee thanks.
http://www.geocities.com/jcrowe22/pe...opulation.html
http://dogs.about.com/library/weekly/aa090602a.htm

Pros
Hmm..no addies?? Well I can think of one reason off the top of my head -- cute puppies. Not a good reason? Of course it isn't, I can see cute puppies on my television.

And litterally, I couldn't find any pros to backyard breeding.

[binka_nugget]

Shelties are a great breed but letting your potential dog have a litter first is hurting the breed even more.

Here's a link to my all time favorite article. I've posted it many times here because it's a very honest article and from other breeders who experienced this first hand. http://www.mydogsite.com/boards/inde...=ST&f=2&t=810&

With that being said, shelties are a great breed. I'm owned by two and think that they're probably one of the most versatile breeds around. Mine would gladly stay on my lap all day but would hop off and run a marathon in a heartbeat if I wanted them to. A puppy though..may be pretty tough for your father. Don't get me wrong, shelties are well natured and what-not but every puppy is going to be a bit spunky and naughty at times. If you're up for it though, do whatever you can to find the best breeder around. Keep in mind that generally, you get what you pay for. If a breeder offered sheltie pups for any lower than 500, I'd have to question it because most sheltie breeders around here charge a minimum of 500.

[wolfsoul]

Thanks for posting that addy Ashley.

I have witnessed/heard of some of those things happening.

For instance : When I was younger, and too young to know better, my dad tried to breed Leather. Any unaltered male GSD that came around was tried. Not a single one could, becuase Leather would attack them, snarling, and injure them before they could touch her. She is not unsocialized, and she is fine with other dogs. But she knew what was going on; smart dog, that one. Not only this, but Leather developed a malignant tumor -- cancer.

My neighbor's dog Nakita (sibe) was bred to Pedro (Timber's bf) accidentally. Then again, you can't really call it an accident to leave an unaltered siberian husky loose in the backyard lol. She gave birth to 5 pups. Three healthy. One got stuck. She tore it out of her and the head ripped off. Nobody even knew about the other one until it was found, half eaten.

My best friend's dog was bred to her neighbor's dog twice (unintentionally, but irresponsibly nevertheless). The first time, the mother ate every last pup. The second time the neighbors called the police on my friend and her family.

[Shelteez2]

I disagree with a bitch needing to have one litter before being spayed.

That being said here's a link to the American Shetland Sheepdog Association:
http://www.assa.org/
There is a breeder referral list on there to get you started on looking for a breeder (but I agree with everyone that stated that a responsible breeder won't sell a pet pup without a contract saying it's not to be bred).

Also on that site:
http://www.assa.org/shouldI.htm

[Dave&Cat]

Good Morning;

I have read all of your posts and appreciate your advice. My wife has researched the dog breeds and the one that she wants is a Sheltie. She claims that a Sheltie has all of the attributes that she had in her wolf she raised and loved for 9 years. (Her ex got him in their divorce). We went to "BYB's" and it made our hearts ache and our blood boil. We went to puppy mills and local pet shops/shelters, talk about blood boiling !!!!!!!!!! There should be a legal way to stop that but there is so much red tape that it is hard to figure out how!!! Still trying!!!!!!!!

We are strong Christian people who do not believe in the abuse of people or animals. We believe that every living thing has its place. We know that you are trying to protect the animals and we respect all of you for that. (But it is odd that you have not asked one question about us.)

We have read most of the suggested articles. My wife and I were both raised on farms. We both helped deliver animals and take care of them afterwords (including removing afterbirth) .

We don't want to be breeders. We are looking for a pet. We know what happens to those poor babies that don't get a loving family. It will break your heart. Recently they emptied a house out here that had over 115 dogs and more than 100 cats. They all had to be euthanized !!!!!!!!!!!

We want to allow for one litter with the permission and choice of the breeder. Of course the contract and pick of litter is fine. What we appreciate. Sire, according to breeder, the bitch will house at sire's location for however long it takes. One pup will be a companion to the mother. The other's will be sold through the breeder. The bitch will be spayed after first litter.

Our MSN messaging service ID is WildeDove.
Our E-mail Address is [email protected]

[binka_nugget]

Well, I still don't agree with allowing the bitch have one litter but if you have any questions regarding the breed, feel free to contact me. We also have a few other sheltie fans here...shelteez2 seems very knowledgeable.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

I don't agree with having 1 litter first and then getting her spayed. Imagine this, when the bitch has her puppies and you find homes for them all, those homes could have been given to dogs at shelters. I think you would just be adding to over-population of dogs; even with just 1 litter.

Technically, you ARE breeders. Even if you have just 1 litter.

[Shelteez2]

Originally posted by Dave&Cat
We don't want to be breeders. We are looking for a pet...

We want to allow for one litter with the permission and choice of the breeder. Of course the contract and pick of litter is fine. What we appreciate. Sire, according to breeder, the bitch will house at sire's location for however long it takes. One pup will be a companion to the mother. The other's will be sold through the breeder. The bitch will be spayed after first litter.

Well in breeding a litter you will be breeder's
I see what you're saying though.
I know what you mean by wanting a pet, but in talking to breeders you will be dealing with aquiring a show quality dog, as most won't want to breed a dog that is pet quality. Most also won't want to breed a show quality dog without it first proving itself in the show ring. If you or your wife are prepared to show it at least until it's championship, then I think you will have better luck. Also the breeder will want all health clearances to be done, and that means waiting until 2 years of age to get the hips OFA'd.

There is one situation which you may be lucky enough to find that would work for what you want, and that is if you can find a dog that for some reason or another just wouldn't do well in the show ring but is conformationally correct. And the only dog I can think of that would be in this situation would be one with an obvious color fault such as being a mismark, or a color headed white.
Did I make that clear? As mud right. LOL

[wolfsoul]

Originally posted by Dave&Cat
We went to "BYB's" and it made our hearts ache and our blood boil. We went to puppy mills and local pet shops/shelters, talk about blood boiling !!!!!!!!!! There should be a legal way to stop that but there is so much red tape that it is hard to figure out how!!! Still trying!!!!!!!!

Than why are you backyard breeding if you don't like it and think that something should be done about it? Breeding once is still backyard breeding.

[wolfsoul]

Also, how did you go to a puppy mill? The runners just let you in? Puppy mills are generally very secretive, and they only sell to pet shops, yet one just let you in?