Not a good day at the dog park

[Adge Gibbs]

Everyday after work, Seven and I meet up with about 17 other people and their dogs at the dog park. Things are calm for the most part and the dogs (and owners) socialize for about 3 hours. Nice way to wind down from a long day at work.

Every once in a while, a new 'couple' shows up and everyone is really friendly and inviting. We make sure the dogs don't overwhelmed the new dog and things are usually great.

Well, yesterday we had someone show up who's dog kept peeing on PEOPLE and the owner thought it was cute. It wasn't and I said something to him about it and he just laughed it off as "that's how dogs are." Um.. no, that's how UNTRAINED dogs are, especially when the owner laughs and thinks it's cute.

Well, he peed on one woman who was there with her daughter and the woman started SCREAMING at this guy and his dog and his dog started growling. Not good at all. Her dog and and this guy's dog started fighting and then Hannah, the 100+ lb Rottie got in the middle to break it up and the dog bit her and then things got REALLY ugly.

I've never seen a Rotweiler lose its cool. It wasn't pretty at all and man I am so glad her owner has her trained. She stopped on command.

The guy finally leaves and takes his dog with him and the woman with the black poodle shows up with all of the dogs already on edge and her dog starts attacking DJ, the shepherd/lab mix and Sarah, who has two dogs at the park asked the woman to get her dog on a leash (this is the dog that had attacked dogs at the park before). Well, the woman started in with the "It's a free country..." and Sara lost it.

These two were yelling at each other and then Sara's dogs came over to protect her. Seven and I were watching the whole thing and when the poodle hurt Aurora (Sara's older dog) Seven went charging at the poodle and wrestled it to the ground and pinned it.

I went over and got Seven and tried to get her dog on a leash so the woman could at least restrain her dog.

Stupid (looking back I realize this now but I wanted all of the fighting to stop) because her dog bit the crap out of me which made Seven jump on her dog again and I finally got him to heel and stand with me as she got her dog.

This woman refused to believe that her dog was aggressive and wouldn't leave and when her poodle made gestures like it was going to come at me, I told her point blank that if she didn't love her dog that much, she'd let him do it. Her dog already bit me and drew blood and if it comes near me again, I won't stop Seven this time.

All of the dogs were so wired up at this point. All were barking and circling. Everyone was getting anxious and finally the woman with the dog left. In the past, I've offered to meet her at the other, smaller park so her dog could get socialized in a smaller group because I know 17-20 dogs in one place can be overwhelming, but she refused to believe that HER dog could do any wrong.

I will never understand that. I love Sev to death and he's the joy in my life, but even I know he's not perfect and messes up at times.

I've been getting email all morning asking me if I'm coming to the park today. Luckily, the dog had his shots (up to date) and the doctor gave me a clean bill of health. I only got a few stitches, but I am so irritated right now.

I don't understand the logic of taking untrained or unsocialized dogs to a park and letting them off of the leash.

[KYS]

I feel very bad for you.
I don't understand why people have blinders on
when it comes to their own dogs.
Letting a dog pee on people is not acceptable,
and niether is bringing a dog aggressive animalto the park.
It does not take much for dogs to pack together and
gang up on another dog.

[Cheshirekatt]

That's exactly the reason why I'm not that comfortable at the off leash parks. I would never take Buford or Wilma (too dog aggressive) but Joxer really likes to go. I'm just worried about other peoples dogs. You know even if he doesn't start it, he'll get the blame because he's part pit bull.

[carrie]

Blimey what a mess!!

Without the added influence of people the dynamics of such a large number of dogs running together will be volatile at times - this would be the same in a wild pack or a pack of domestic dogs. Add in the people and sooner or later a situation will arise that people and dogs react to differently (because we are different species and look at life in different ways) and WHOOSH!

Humans and their dogs have very different relationships - some very well behaved dogs believe that they are the leaders of their family pack - some very "badly" behaved animals believe that they have no leader and are not up to the job themselves so try bravado as a way of coping (it is a fear thing - the tougher I act the less likely the others are to realise I don't know what I'm doing) hence the peeing on people dog. His owner simply does not understand the animal and the animal doesn't understand him, the other people and probably the other dogs. Most people would class this dog as a very dominant animal - it may be, but I suspect that it is a poorly socialised, poorly handled, very insecure dog.

Poodle person is in the same league - no understanding at all about pack dynamics, social interactions (between dogs or people!) or what the dog is saying before it acts.

This is the major problem with dog parks - you can not anticipate who is going to be there when you turn up.
Is there anyway that your regular friends and you can arrange to meet and go for a walk somewhere else. This not only restricts the dogs and people who are invited but also ensures that you have a manageable number at any time. The best bit for the dogs is that they have other things to think about rather than making the territory their own and defending it - lots of new things to smell, look at and discover instead of concentrating all attention on each other.

[Adge Gibbs]

yeah Carrie, we've exchanged email addresses tonight and we're going to make a park rotation where we meet at different parks on different days.

Things were better today. Seven getting bonked on the head by a tennis ball was the highlight of the excitement today so everything was good.

It was a mess yesterday, but I know it's the exception. I'm still going to ask people if they want to come but only after meeting their dogs.

[carrie]

Good call - so difficult in a public place - much better to make a club type thing where you manage who is invited! Good luck.

[Bandit's mom]

Some people ruin things for other people. Dogs that don't behave should go to obedience training. If the owner can't handle the dog then let somebody who can help take control and teach the dog. A good dog is a happy dog.

[BestBuddy]

We had an unpleasant experience at the park yesterday too. It's a regular city park, not a dog park. But many people of course walk their dogs there.

Buddy pulled me towards this husky we have seen before. They have sniffed each other and behaved well. This time though the husky was quite agitated and he and Buddy started growling at each other and scratching, or whatever it is you call that when they look they are fighting with their front paws.

The husky's owner pulled him away, as I did with my dog. Buddy then went behind a tree and started howling as if he was in pain. I have never seen anything like this and it really worried me. I thought maybe he had been badly injured. I checked him over and didn't see any blood. The husky's owner was very apologetic. I told her I thought Buddy was OK, but just got scared.

Like a protective parent I pet him and spoke some soothing words. When we got home I gave him 2 treats. I guess he is OK, but just got scared by the other dog. Or maybe he was unhappy the husky showed some kind of dominance over him.

It was just weird for me to see this, and hear that awful howling. Then I wondered if he did get hurt would we be stuck with a big vet's bill, or would it be difficult for me to charge the other dog's owner for that, etc. Everything seemed to turn out all right though.

[veegan]

hdskfkhsdf GRRR that is so irritating!!!! I went to marymoor yesterday with Kirsten & Jiminy, and I swear it mustve been something in the air because there were fighting dogs all over the place!!! There was this one pit bull, who we'd seen there several other times and we always got a really bad vibe from the owner, but the dog had always been nice enough and wanted to play with Jim, and she was there yesterday and they were playing and stuff, and there were some other people we'd not seen before who were really nice and had 3 pit bulls of their own and one of the guys was playing with Jim and wanted his dogs to play with him too and stuff. But then as we were walking away we saw the first pit bull, whos owner we didnt really like, running and playing with this lab and all of a sudden the pit bull attacks this lab!!! jfd;fsdfjds We were AMAZED. Id never seen a dog fight there before, and she definately did not sound like she was playing, she just pinned this dog down so fast and was really going at it and the owner ran over and pulled her off. I couldnt believe it.

THEN, as we were walking around a few mins later, we saw this german shorthaired pointer who had totally pinned this poor pit bull puppy (a totally differnet pit bull) down to the ground and was NOT letting go, the pit bull's owner had to come over and lift the GSP off his dog! It was insane.

Then a little while later we heard in the distance some more mean sounding growling. We were just like, GEEZ everyone is fighting today!!!

Unfortunately with pit bulls, because they are so powerful and because they have such a bad rep, when they get in the hands of the wrong owner who doesnt socialize or train them properly, or obtains one for the wrong reason, or whatever, when something like that happens there can be major problems, espcially because they can do so much damage with such little effort. But it just goes to show you, that one attack might have been from a pit bull, but then these 3 other pit bulls that were there too had no problems, and then we turn the corner and its a pit bull whos BEING attacked, ya know? People can be so ignorant!! Oh, and that pit bull who attacked the lab was intact too.. >:O

Kirsten goes to Marymoor a lot more often than I do, and shes said shes seen Labs go after other dogs, and of course little dogs are always viciously going after other dogs if they get annoyed, esp bigger dogs, Im sure because they are so much smaller, they dotn want to be trampled. lol That same pit bull pup whod been pinned by the pointer, almost got his face ripped off by a little westie when he went over and tried to play with it. So I mean, the breed makes no difference, its just the individual personality, and how theyve been raised that makes a dog how it is.

I mean, Ive seen people their with muzzles on their dogs just in case, like maybe their dog was a resuce and they are a little edgy around dogs for who knows why, maybe had a bad experience, so the owner just want to be safe incase their dog freaks out one day. Kirsten likes to give Jim a tennis ball to carry around because she knows not all dogs like rough, biting play, and he is so big, so she just likes to be safe. Those kinds of things are just smart, ya know? Thats how all dog owners should be. You dont take chances in a public place like that.

These people who come along and think they and their dogs are so perfect, and to them its YOUR fault because you made their dog mad or whatever, they are just stupid and ignorant. They are responsible for their dogs, and they should be aware of what makes their dogs mad, or how they react to certain situations, and they need to be aware of that. If they need a muzzle then get one. If they need to keep their dog on leash then do it. If they cant go to a dog park at all, then got outta there! lol I just dont think enough people are aware of their dogs' emotions.

Thankfully though Kirsten & I have been lucky never to have any real problems at Marymoor. Most of the people there are really nice, and have well trained dogs and are open minded and understand dogs. The only time I can think anyones ever gotten mad at her is when Jim overwhlemed this golden ret pup. First of all, goldens are (generally) submissive, so they automatically roll over on ther backs anyway. Second, this dog was a puppy, probably only about 4 or 5 months old, so it was small. Jim, is huge lol and he loves to play, so he went over to the dog and I expect to someone who doesnt understand dog play and body language would think he was hurting the dog, but the pup was not in pain, wasnt whining or freaking out, wasnt fearful, he just happened to be in a submissive position. And Kirsten is always careful to watch him, and whenever a dog is on its back she always tells Jim, or physically makes him, let up so the dog can get back up. So the dogs owner comes over to get the dog and was all biter and walked away. He didnt say much but you can tell he was mad. Of course the puppy kept wanting to run back to us and play! but alas we just walked away cause we didnt wanna deal with this ignorant guy! It amazes me how so many dog owners dont even understand basic dog body language and play!

[carrie]

You are so right that so many people just don't understand the way their dogs' minds work and in one way that will always make dog parks an unpredictable place to take your dogs.
It is very interesting that you noticed many squabbles between the dogs on the same day in the same area.
This is something that everyone using dog parks, or places where there tends to be a lot of dogs, to excersise their animals should think about.
I am in the middle of research at the moment to investigate why this happens. I have not concluded the research and the science is still a bit rough around the edges but you may be interested in my findings so far....
It seems that dogs hearing other dogs fight, even if it is out of human hearing, become more defensive - probably in order to protect themselves and prepare for battle if the fight comes their way. Marking behaviour becomes more frequent in these cases and it seems likely that the chemistry of the urine left is altered to signify the readiness to defend, thus informing more dogs that there is trouble afoot. With just these two theories it is obvious how a ripple effect can happen within a park containing many dogs and how the rate of fights can escalate beyond the odd tiff you would expect.
The other factor I am considering is the change in weather - at this time of year wild northern hemisphere canids are starting to pack more tightly. It seems sensible that older Alpha animals begin to feel the cold and the effort of keeping warm as well as having energy to hunt will tell on them more than a younger animal. This may be the opportunity that younger dominant animals have been waiting for to challenge, seriously, for leadership. This may be the trigger for some of the fights that are occuring in established dog parks. It is also the time of year when most two or three year old animals are getting comfy in their adult skin and feeling pretty confident - this may also be a factor as most puppies (in the wild, at least) are born early in the spring and will reach the peak of fitness and confidence at this time of year. In pet dogs this may be a residual behaviour, not actually needed but still somewhat in evidence.

As I say - this is pure theory at the moment. There does seem to be a change in a pet dog's sense of well being at this time of year - I have questioned and visited 27 families so far that have watched and recorded their dog's behaviour over the exceptionally hot, dry summer we have had. We are still very dry - but the nights are drawing in and it is certainly colder. I have asked them to monitor their dogs until next summer as I am theorising that the same upsurge will happen in the spring.

We shall see....

Very interesting anyway.

[lizbud]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BestBuddy
[B]

Buddy pulled me towards this husky we have seen before. They have sniffed each other and behaved well. This time though the husky was quite agitated and he and Buddy started growling at each other and scratching, or whatever it is you call that when they look they are fighting with their front paws.

The husky's owner pulled him away, as I did with my dog. Buddy then went behind a tree and started howling as if he was in pain. I have never seen anything like this and it really worried me. I thought maybe he had been badly injured. I checked him over and didn't see any blood. The husky's owner was very apologetic. I told her I thought Buddy was OK, but just got scared.

Like a protective parent I pet him and spoke some soothing words. When we got home I gave him 2 treats. I guess he is OK, but just got scared by the other dog. Or maybe he was unhappy the husky showed some kind of dominance over him.

It seems that you made quite a few assumptions of what the
dogs intended to do & the moods they were in at the time. I've
seen excited playful dogs(with play growls) want to be released
from their leashs so they can run & play. How well did you know
the other dog & owner? I think you would probably be a good
judge of your own dog's intentions but unless you know the
other dog & owner it's always an unknown.

[veegan]

wow carrie, that is really fascinating! Im really interested in hearing more about what you discover in the coming months!

[anna_66]

Originally posted by carrie

The other factor I am considering is the change in weather - at this time of year wild northern hemisphere canids are starting to pack more tightly. It seems sensible that older Alpha animals begin to feel the cold and the effort of keeping warm as well as having energy to hunt will tell on them more than a younger animal. This may be the opportunity that younger dominant animals have been waiting for to challenge, seriously, for leadership. This may be the trigger for some of the fights that are occuring in established dog parks. It is also the time of year when most two or three year old animals are getting comfy in their adult skin and feeling pretty confident - this may also be a factor as most puppies (in the wild, at least) are born early in the spring and will reach the peak of fitness and confidence at this time of year. In pet dogs this may be a residual behaviour, not actually needed but still somewhat in evidence.

I find this so interesting Carrie
We have been having, not what I'd call trouble...but squabbles.
Angus (our rottie) has never really been alpha even though he's been here 10 years longer than Roxey (our Sib).
But here in the last, I'd say 2-3 weeks, Roxey has been really trying to show him she is boss. He still never backs down from here unless I think they are getting a little out of hand & I make them quit.
She is 2 yrs and 5 mos, do you think she could be trying to make sure she is the dominat one? He's 12 now and can't handle himself quite as well as he used to (his back legs aren't nearly as strong as they used to be). Alot of times if she jumps on him or pushes him around he will go down, even though he probably weighs about 50-60 lbs more than her.
So....what do you think?

[carrie]

Hello Anna 66,
At Roxey's age she is becoming a fully mature animal, socially, emotionally and mentally. Being a Sib she will have less of a domestic dog attitude to life and more of a wolf attitude - a bit more wolf than your average pet if you like. It will be perfectly natural for her to improve her own status by noticing any weakness in older animals that she can take advantage of. I think this is exactly what is happening. You can help things along and reduce the stress for Angus by altering the way you handle the dogs. Treat Roxey as though the she is the higher ranking animal of the two. This will allow Roxey to feel more secure and she can ease off Angus. Angus, I'm sure, will breath a large sigh of relief and his life will be a lot more comfortable. One word of caution - be careful to impress on Roxey that you are still higher ranking than her and that you are strong in your position - she will be looking at you next and weighing up her chances!!!

[anna_66]

Thanks Carrie!