Chicken had her kittens! *pics*

[slleipnir]

Me speaking really is pointless isnt it? lol. I asked Karen to close the thread. If you have something to say you can PM me

[micki76]

Originally posted by slleipnir
Me speaking really is pointless isnt it? lol. I asked Karen to close the thread. If you have something to say you can PM me

I don’t see any point in closing the thread except that you won’t have to see the good points that we’ve all made against this. Topics often go off subject. I personally get annoyed when someone starts a topic and that the thread they started [I]may possibly[/b] be controversial or go OT and then ask for the thread to be posted when it does just that. If you don’t want to read it, then don’t read it. Let it die a normal death and let people vent about a subject that they feel very strongly about. Perhaps it should be moved to the Doghouse instead? I may be in the minority here, but I don’t feel that a thread should be closed or deleted when others have posted in it unless things have gotten way out of hand and people are being unusually cruel or nasty. IMO, that’s not the case here.

[Logan]

Audrey, I just saw this thread (and read the whole thing) for the first time. What I would like to say is "good luck" on the new kitten. I know you will do whatever you can to make sure that he/she has the best life possible!!! The babies are precious, and I'm glad one of them will find a home with you.

[2kitties]

It is not pointless for you to speak. But you seem to be talking in circles. You contradict yourself over and over. Did you expect this declaw/no spay thing to go over well here?
All this declaw stuff is about your mom not wanting the cat to have claws. You say you know it isn't good, but you want the cat so badly you'll do it anyway. You have talked yourself into believing it is no big deal. What if your mom didn't want the cat to run around, would you remove a leg? Or if she didn't want it to chew things? Would you pull its teeth? Yes, my points are exaggerated, but they are one in the same. And you know that spaying and neutering is very healthy for an animal- we didn't have to tell you that.

You say you can't move out financially with the animals. But, why not prioritize and save money, work on an education and a career so you can move on your own and be a self-sufficient adult. Then you can give a good home to the animals.

I seriously think you would do right by any animal. I can see that you love them alot. I just think you are letting your desire for a kitten right now overwhelm what you know to be right. When you can care for the cat YOUR WAY, I think it will be awesome. But your mom's way is wrong. Soft paws aren't that expensive. If you can't affored them, what will you do if the kitten gets ill and needs expensive veterinary care?

[slleipnir]

I do, because this wasn't the original content of MY thread. I'm not deleting it, so your points are still here for you all to look at. Feel free to start a new declawing thread with all your points, as long as it doesn't involve me.

As for my point, for the last time. I don't think its good no, and contrdicing as it is, I don't care. I seriously, honost to god, feel like the kitten would benefit from me adopting it. If it was just getting declawed then left like I didn't care about it, no, I wouldn't get one. I asked my mom, again, about it. A scratching post I said. I told her lots of ppl train them to use it. She said she just can't afford to replace all her furnature again hwen she just bought new stuff. She says she doesn't think its cruel. She says whats cruel is animals being beating or abused, animals left to die somewhere or just abandoned, animals being thrown off bridges to drown, animals neglected any attention, starved or whatever, THAT is cruel. I agree, however I don't think declawing is good either. I just feel that its very likely the cat has a life l ike that. You say you work in shelters and hundreds of cats are there, so obviously ppl throwing away cats is something that happens a lot!! I would rather not see that, as I'm sure you are too! I'm going to talk to my vet before getting one. My mom is good friends with her, so she wouldn't lie about it just for money. You would have to know her, shes not that kind of person. If she truely believes the kitten has a better chance of having a better life with someone else, I won't get one. I just wish you ppl would understand why I'm doing this and I'm not trying to be mean or cruel. I know I can give this kitten a good home. Look at smitten, she has everything a cat would want, lots of good food, a warm place to live/sleeps, tons of attention, being able to go to the vets whenever needed either for checkups or if shes sick. I will do anything for her, I love her. I just think thats better then being left to get your own food, starving, cold and wet somewhere..or being in a cage..thats what freaks me out. Even more then declawing. I can't STAND that so many animals die every year for no reason it seriously makes me want to cry because I can't save them. I'm NOT doing this to be mean!

[slleipnir]

No spay? No, I planned on having it spayed..don't know where that came from..

[nodgeness]

Ok, I pulled this commemt from another thread. The one about banning declawing in CA. The comments in blue were what upset me as you will see. I'm posting this, though it should have nothing to do w/ the thread it kind of does.
It's comments like this that upset me! I'll explain why @ the bottom of the blue.
We know that there are a few individuals who will always declaw their cats. Their own personal convenience and the safety of their belongings is their top priority, and whether or not it causes suffering to the cat is not a significant concern. (Whether they should have a cat at all is a debate for another time!)
Fortunately, most people truly love their feline companions and want to do what's best for all concerned. If you are one of these wonderful people (and if you've read this far, we're pretty sure you are!), please think carefully about this beautiful little animal who trusts you and relies on you for her very existence. Please make the humane choice - and DO NOT DECLAW!

Here's why
1. Statements like that assume people declaw cats for their own personal convenience. NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. example: Rental property sometimes require it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who move from a house to a rental place. Banning declawing would leave 1 option & that is to get rid of their beloved cat. Which leaves a once happy cat w/ out it's family & in a cage.
2. Statements like that also imply people who choose the option of declawing their cat don't truly love thier animal. FALSE!!!! My cats are treated just like a member of the family. Please don't anyone respond would you take your kids & have part of their finger removed. You don't see kids in little cages & I also don't pay a deposit to keep kids @ my place.
3. I thought long & hard about getting Bernie declawed before i decided to have it done. I didn't choose declawing for convenience or for safety of my belongings as implied by the above article. I was nothing but concerned for my Bernie when I made the decision.
These articles/statements are nothing but judgmental statements. I don't have to justify why I opted to have Bernie declawed but everyday when I look @ my kitties I FEEL WONDERFUL that they are not in some horrible cage watching people come & go picking other animals to take home. My babies are at home w/ me where they are supposed to be.
Some of the "potential complications" I'm sure can happen but my cats are healthy. Also declawed cats stretch the way they are supposed to. My cats stretch just like they always have.


2 more things.
1. Of course there are going to be potential complications of declawing but, aren't there potential complications w/ just about everything we humans do? Aren't there potential complications of having animals teeth cleaned, spayed/neutered? There are potential complications everytime you knock an animal or human out.

2.Please make the humane choice - and DO NOT DECLAW!
Is it more humane to put a healthy animal to sleep &/or keep a healthy animal in a cage? This is what happens!

[aly]

Originally posted by nodgeness


1. Statements like that assume people declaw cats for their own personal convenience. NOT ALWAYS THE CASE. example: Rental property sometimes require it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who move from a house to a rental place. Banning declawing would leave 1 option & that is to get rid of their beloved cat. Which leaves a once happy cat w/ out it's family & in a cage.

Not every rental place requires it. There are MANY options when moving into a rental place so why not move somewhere that doesn't require it?

When calling for Landlord approval at the shelter for potential adopters, when they tell me the cat has to be declawed, I ask to speak to the manager. I also send them more information than they ever wanted to know. I'm happy to say you CAN change their minds.

Originally posted by nodgeness

2 more things.
1. Of course there are going to be potential complications of declawing but, aren't there potential complications w/ just about everything we humans do? Aren't there potential complications of having animals teeth cleaned, spayed/neutered? There are potential complications everytime you knock an animal or human out.

2.Please make the humane choice - and DO NOT DECLAW!
Is it more humane to put a healthy animal to sleep &/or keep a healthy animal in a cage? This is what happens!

1. There are in fact risks in everything. That is where you measure the risks versus the gain and look at the statistics. There are a lot more possible complications from declawing than from spaying. Also, why would you risk the complications from declawing when it is an unnecessary procedure?

2. I'm having trouble understanding the logic of either the cat is declawed or it will end up dead on the street or in a shelter cage My cats all have claws and are alive and well (indoor only I might add).

[Kater]

Originally posted by nodgeness
Also declawed cats stretch the way they are supposed to. My cats stretch just like they always have.

The damage would not likely be visible to you. Cats are very good at hiding pain!!!

The Cat’s Claws
Unlike most mammals who walk on the soles of the paws or feet, cats are digitigrade, which means they walk on their toes. Their back, shoulder, paw and leg joints, muscles, tendons, ligaments and nerves are naturally designed to support and distribute the cat's weight across its toes as it walks, runs and climbs. A cat's claws are used for balance, for exercising, and for stretching the muscles in their legs, back, shoulders, and paws. They stretch these muscles by digging their claws into a surface and pulling back against their own clawhold - similar to isometric exercising for humans. This is the only way a cat can exercise, stretch and tone the muscles of its back and shoulders. The toes help the foot meet the ground at a precise angle to keep the leg, shoulder and back muscles and joints in proper alignment. Removal of the last digits of the toes drastically alters the conformation of their feet and causes the feet to meet the ground at an unnatural angle that can cause back pain similar to that in humans caused by wearing improper shoes.
www.declawing.com

Originally posted by nodgeness
1. Of course there are going to be potential complications of declawing but, aren't there potential complications w/ just about everything we humans do? Aren't there potential complications of having animals teeth cleaned, spayed/neutered? There are potential complications everytime you knock an animal or human out.

Yes, there are complications to anesthesia as well as short-term complications to most surgical procedures but the following SERIOUS complications indicate MUTILATION...

Post-surgical complications: Lameness, abscesses and claw regrowth can occur days or weeks or many years after surgery. In one study that followed cats for only 5 months after surgery, nearly 1/3 of cats developed complications from both declaw and tendonectomy surgeries (digital tendonectomy is a procedure whereby the tendons that extend the toes are cut; it’s sometimes promoted as an “alternative” to declawing).

Chronic Pain: It is impossible to know how much chronic pain and suffering declawing causes, because cats are unable to express these in human terms. However, we can get an idea by looking at similar procedures in people. Nearly all human amputees report “phantom” sensations from the amputated part, ranging from merely strange to extremely painful (about 40% of such sensations are categorized as painful). Because declawing involves ten separate amputations, it is virtually certain that all declawed cats experience phantom pain in one or more toes. In humans, these sensations continue for life, even when the amputation took place in early childhood; there is no physiological reason that this would not be true for cats. Cats are stoic and typically conceal pain or illness until it becomes overwhelming. With chronic pain, it may be that they simply learn to live and cope with it. Their behavior may appear “normal,” but a lack of overt signs of pain does not mean that they are pain-free.

Joint Stiffness: In declawed (and tendonectomized) cats, the tendons that control the toe joints retract after surgery, and these joints become essentially “frozen.” The toes can no longer be extended, but remain fully contracted for the life of the cat. In cats that have been declawed for many years, these joints often cannot be moved, even under deep anesthesia. The fact that most cats continue to make scratching motions after they are declawed is often said to “prove” that they do not “miss” their claws. However, this behavior could be equally well – or better – explained as desperate but ineffective efforts to stretch those stiff toes, legs, shoulders and backs.

Arthritis: Research has shown that, in the immediate post-operative period, newly declawed cats shift their body weight backward onto the large central pads of the feet, and off the sore toes. This effect was significant even when strong pain medication was given, and remained apparent for the duration of the study (up to 40 hours after the surgery). If this altered gait persists over time, it would cause stress on the leg joints and spine, and could lead to damage and arthritic changes in multiple joints. A recent study showed that arthritis of the elbow is very common in older cats. When contacted, the researchers admitted that they did not ask or record whether the cats were declawed, evidently preferring the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy so as not to anger those many veterinarians who make a lot of money from declawing.

And the list goes on to include litterbox problems, biting, other changes in personality, etc....
http://declaw.lisaviolet.com/declawdrjean2.html

[Uabassoon]

I don't understand why if your rental agreement states that your cat must be declawed that people feel THEY are the one that needs to declaw it. Shelters already have cats that are declawed and in need of homes. My sister wanted a cat and she had a rental agreement that stated only declawed cats, she said she couldn't bring herself to adopt a kitten and get it declawed so she adopted one that already declawed. Yes maybe she didn't get the cute 6 week old kitten, but who cares the kitten will grow up! She also had a roommate with an older cat and the two got along fine. I've seen lots of older cats be introduced together and it be sucessful.

[nodgeness]

I'm talking about owners that have cats & move to rental places. Are they supposed to give up their cat that they've had for years? or declaw him/her & keep him/her in the family. OR, take the cat to the shelter & hope he/ she finds a good home.

I know how I'm going to answer that.

Also I understand that NO ONE knows the true effects declawing has, all we can do is speculate/compare to how humans react. Well I'm sorry I hate the surgery is a hard one on the little guys but I still feel it's better then them being PTS or stuck in a cage.

Since everyone wants to compare humans & cats. Would you want to be PTS or in a cage?

[Uabassoon]

Why not keep searching until you find a rental place that will let you keep your cats without being declawed? I know there have to be some out there because not every single person has their cat declawed and they somehow manage to find places to live.

[aly]

Originally posted by nodgeness
I'm talking about owners that have cats & move to rental places. Are they supposed to give up their cat that they've had for years? or declaw him/her & keep him/her in the family. OR, take the cat to the shelter & hope he/ she finds a good home.

I know how I'm going to answer that.

Did you read my post? There are other options. Not every place requires declawing. And you can also change their minds. I have done it several times!

[slleipnir]

For the last time, I'm not moving out. Like I said, I couldn't afford to pay for them and 2 dogs. I will NOT move out before I find a place for Jo and Zeke too. Also, its a hell of a lot hard to find a place that allows pets. My mom has been looking for months now. Shes now getting her own place, thats all that she can find allowing pets thats not a cruddy place

[nodgeness]

I'm done w/ responding in this thread! No one is going to change anyones mind.
I will never say PTS/Cage over declawing. I believe every cat deserves a loving home & just because someone declaws doesn't mean that cat won't be spoiled rotten.

I also know that people in here are never going to agree. Like I've said before I respect everyones passion for animals but I'm going to have to agree to disagree @ this point.

Aly, sorry i missed your comment about not understanding declaing to PTS / shelter.
I'm looking @ all the cats in shelters across the US. There are lots of people who declaw their cats (right or wrong) the fact is those cats have homes. If you take declawing out some of those cats will never find a home and prolly end up PTS.
I'm not saying all cats that aren't declawed are going to be PTS. I'm just saying chances are less cats will find a home. Which leaves more cats/kitties in the shelters.