Prong/pinch collar

[wolf_Q]

What are your opinions on this?

I've thought about trying it. Nebo is not THAT bad at loose-leash walking, and that's not really the problem. The problem is, when we're out, whenever he sees another dog, he just lunges at them! It's not a mean lunge, its a PLAY WITH ME lunge! But not all dogs want a furry husky to jump on their head and play bite. He's VERY bad at this. He's bad at jumping on people in public also.

At his class last time I asked the trainer what to do about it. She witnessed him in action with another dog, and she agreed that it was not a good thing. She said I'd have to make a noise or grab him in some way to startle him. I've tried yelling at him (uh-uh/no) with no response...making a loud noise does not bother him either. She mentioned using a prong collar or halti. I tried a halti on him once (it's Lady's) and he freaked out really badly...and Nebo does not normally freak out about things I put on him.

So anyway, that's why I've thought about getting a prong/pinch collar. I'd only use when I'm walking him somewhere with a lot of other dogs around, and I would never leave it on him other then that.

[wolfsoul]

i think i know what kind of collar ur talking about...my dog, leather has a metal collar with bars on the inside that dig into her neck when she pulls...is this a prong/pinch collar?

[*LabLoverKEB*]

Sadie has a prong collar, and it works wonders!

Wolfsoul, this is a prong collar:

[Cheshirekatt]

Hi there!
I've found prong collars to be very helpful, especially with the stronger breeds and the really thick coated breeds. Most of my dogs are adult pitbull rescues (i.e. STRONG......very strong) and I find them a very good tool to use. Some dogs I am able to step them down to a martingale or regular buckle collars, but one of my dogs will always have to wear a prong collar when we go out. Of course they LOOK barbaric, but they do get the job done.

[Dixieland Dancer]

I think you already know my response Amy but I will give it anyway. Let's see... how do I put this without being harsh....? Would you like one around your neck? Little pinchy prongs biting into your flesh everytime you make a wrong move? I don't think so and I don't think Nebo will either. Of the two I would use a Halti (less invasive). He will get use to it after it is on for a little bit. Halti's do not hurt the dog by digging into their skin.

Personally though, I believe the behavior needs to be corrected in a positive manner. If I was the trainer this is what I would suggest...

Go somewhere where you know there will be other dogs but you can remain at a distance. Get close enough just so Nebo will display the behavior you do not want. Have the greatest treats in the world for Nebo handy. I usually pull out the best that my dogs love (baked chicken breast or chunks of real steak) when I am dealing with a problem behavior. Give him a command using his name first such as "Nebo - front" or "Nebo - heal". If necessary you need to take the food between your index and middle finger and wave it around his nose to get his attention. Make him do attention from whatever position you choose. Then reward him with several pieces of the food.

If he doesn't pay attention to you but still focuses on the other dogs, put him in what I refer to as puppy management. Take his leash under your foot and bring him down into a down position. Remain on the leash as close to the buckle as possible without stepping on him. He may struggle but remain on the leash. He will eventually get calm. When he remains calm for a period of time (he doesn't have a choice in this position) then you can give him a "release" command without a food reward. Food rewards are only for paying attention to you when you first give the initial command and he listens.

After you consistently get him to pay attention then move the distance a little closer and repeat.

This method is more time consuming but what you are eventually doing is modifying his behavior with him knowing what you want. By pinching his neck with a prong collar you are getting him not to do the behavior because he doesn't want a negative pinch. He is not really learning what you expect of him but is only learning how to prevent a pinch. I guess you get the same results but one is actually training the dog and the other is conditioning the dog. I prefer the dog to obey me when I give a command.

In teaching Dixie how to be a hunter, I was told by several "experts" that unless I use an electronic training collar on her she will never learn. I tried a collar one day and returned it to the store the next. It took me longer to get her to understand and we had more frustrations I'm sure, but she is consistant now and I can verify that it was worth it doing it the harder way! Most dogs I see go to the line that were trained on a collar (which you are not allowed to compete with it on) are not consistent because they realize they don't have the training device on. Bottom line is if you train you will have a dog who understands he needs to obey you. If you use the pinch collar you better have it for the remainder of his life because he won't know what is expected when he isn't wearing the collar.

Just my two cents!

[wolf_Q]

Little pinchy prongs biting into your flesh everytime you make a wrong move?

From what I heard I really did not think it was painful...just a little uncomfortable...

If you use the pinch collar you better have it for the remainder of his life because he won't know what is expected when he isn't wearing the collar.

I honestly don't think I would need it for very long...I was never planning on using it for anything other then teaching him not to jump and bite at other dogs so badly!

I have not bought the collar, and I don't know if I will. I may borrow my friend's halti and try it, but I really think he would hate that even more. I've never seen him freak out so badly!

I'll try your other methods. He is just so hard to control when he gets around other dogs...he will not focus on me, even if I have treats..he does not care. He's a very intelligent, but very stubborn dog.

[slleipnir]

When Jo was in obedience, they made us use the pinch colors. It seems like it would hurt the dog..but it never seemed to bother Jo much, and it worked amazingly. She listens so well with it, I was amazed! I use the gentle leader now though..I still have the pinch somewhere..My instructor told me that instead of strangling yourdog like a choker or even flat color, it just pinches the dog a little and is more effective or something..Seems logical :]

[slleipnir]

Would you like one around your neck? Little pinchy prongs biting into your flesh everytime you make a wrong move?

Would you rather a color strangling you? I know some dogs are well behaved and don't pull, but I couldn't walk my old dog, Rufus without him stranglng himself. He has the worse trachea, the vet would jut touch it when examing him and he'd gag..I know the pinch wouldn't have done that. I didn't use one on him though, I just got a harness for him, but he couldnt go outside on his chain with a harness without getting away (before our fence..I was to young and stupid at the time ) lol and every cat or animal that would run by, he'd pull and choke. So flat collars aren't much better. You might think im cruel for putting him on a chain, but I was a kid, and we didnt have a place for a fence at the time. Ok I probably stopped making sence a long time ago so I'll stop yapping :[
I guess I agree with both ways though, I don't really like flat or pinches..I think the gentle leader is the way to go :]

[jennifert]

I read a study somewhere about a year ago that all choke/pinch collars do damage to the dog's esophagus/trachea. They did autopsies on dogs that passed away and notice damage in like 95% of the dogs who had these types of collars. That just bothers me too much to ever consider using one. I use the Gentle Leader on Duncan. He also lunges at other dogs/cats/ squirrels,people on the street and it gives me complete control. They are so strong! When Duncan lunges, I have control of his head so he doesn't get very far. I don't even see how a pinch collar would control this behavior at all.....He would still lunge except now you're pinching his neck and his insides more. The pinch will not stop the dog....you know that. You know how dogs are. They will continue the behavior even when it is illogical and maybe painful. Sheer force of will....
Dominant dogs often "flip out" when wearing the gentle leader/halti for the first time. But they will get used to it. Duncan is extremely dominant and sometimes still trys to rub it off but he is used to it now. I have found that with a large strong dog, it works fantastic. Give it another shot.....

[DoggiesAreTheBest]

Drake was trained with a prong collar. That is the only way he would respond to anything. He has done very well it. We only use it when training though. I tried it on my leg and it doesn't hurt.

I do not recommend that anyone use it without proper training and instruction because you can cause alot of damage.

[aly]

I am 100% agaisnt prong, pinch, and choke chains. I agree with what Dixie said and I strictly use positive reinforcement methods for leash walking and on leash behavior. I train shelter dogs and there are some unruly little devils in the shelters. It gets frusterating when you are being pulled along by a 170 lb dog acting like a wild puppy. Patience is the key to positive reinforcement training. It takes a bit longer, but shouldn't take *too* long unless its a stubborn dog.

As Dixie mentioned, positive reinforcement training offers an alternative behavior while positive punishment (something bad happens as a result of their actions --- ie: prong collar) just scares the dog and possibly hurts and confuses it. You have to have the EXACT right timing and know exactly how hard to tug on the prong or you could do some serious damage. I can't help you with how hard to pull because I've never used one of those things.

Dog training methods have taken leaps and bounds in the past years. I think the people who recommend prong collars, etc are stuck in the old school train of thought. Jean Donaldson, Pat Miller, and Patricia McConnell are just a few authors of VERY good training/behavior books.

Whoops, I think I'm going off subject.

My whole point is to try a gentle leader. Many dogs freak out at first but they get used to it. Just hang out with him in the living room and feed him treats while he's first wearing it and getting used to it.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by wolf_Q
Little pinchy prongs biting into your flesh everytime you make a wrong move?

From what I heard I really did not think it was painful...just a little uncomfortable...

If you use the pinch collar you better have it for the remainder of his life because he won't know what is expected when he isn't wearing the collar.

I honestly don't think I would need it for very long...I was never planning on using it for anything other then teaching him not to jump and bite at other dogs so badly!

If the prong collar is not up around the ears and high on the muscle part of the neck then it can cause damage to the throat. Most people (not saying you are one of them) do not position these types of collars properly to get the effect they were originally intended to create! It can be painful as opposed to uncomfortable if it is not used correctly. I would prefer to use positive methods instead of taking the chance.

Just a little on my background. When I first started training dogs over 25 years ago the pop and choke method (choke chains ie.. negative reinforcement) was what everyone was doing. Basically it was considered the Koehler method of dog training. Now positive reinforcement is the chosen method of most trainers because you build a better relationship with your dog in the long run and the dog understands and is accountable for their behavior more. Karen Pryor revolutionized the dog training world with clicker training! There is no comparison in the two methods. They are as night and day from each other as dogs and cats are!

I personally would prefer to have my dog understand when I do this...she is happy and I get rewarded instead of if I do this I am going to get a choke or pinch!

Ultimately the choice is yours. I am just offering my opinion as someone who has done it both ways!

I guess my point about having it forever was that Nebo will be just reacting to not getting pinched instead of really understanding that he gets rewarded when his behavior is not lunging for other dogs.

I do use only a flat collar on my dogs and they respond very well.

Please understand that I realize there are some dogs who have to be trained this way but it should only be done on very tough and demanding situations. I do not believe Nebo fits into that catagory.

Again just my opinion!

[Dakota's Mommy]

Our neighbor has let us borrow their prong collar for Destiny and it is so much easier to walk her when she's on that or on one of those body collars. She doesn't pull nearly as much. We keep meaning to get her her own, but since we've got thiers and their in no hurry to get it back, we just keep using thier. I definately recommend getting one. Right now, Dakota has a chain-slip collar but I wish to get her a prong collar one day too!

[wolfsoul]

My dog leather is great on her prong collar! it does not hurt her, just really bugs her...i never knew that it caused damage to the throat, but im pretty sure that most other collars would too...she does act much better on a haltee, as she is not as social a dog as my Timber, who works better on leathers prong collar than her haltee (im not allowed to switch cuz leather lives at my other house and timber lives here) You should never put a haltee on a dog that is very social, loves to sniff and look around, or is often distracted, because the haltee sometimes slides up and limits their view, and it also makes their head stay in one position so it cant move to the side to see what might be there...thats y some people choose body harnesses instead of haltees cuz it lets them look around but enables their body to move in positions u dont want them too....I think that one of the best collars is one of those whistle ones ( i cant remember what its called). every time the dog pulls, a high pitched whistle pierces the air. it drives them crazy and they learn fast, but they r quite expensive (i saw them in a magazine for 30 dollars)

[lizbud]

I used the prong collar for Buddy on walks because he could
literally pull me off my feet using just the flat or training (chain)
collar. Even though he was trained the old fashioned Koehler
method, I could not give a correction(or didn't want to) hard
enough for him to listen & stop pulling. The prong collar went
on when we walked outside & came off the minute we came
back in. It's sometimes called "power steering" for dogs. He
never gave any indication of pain or discomfort wearing it.
In fact it was my vet who recommended it to me. BUT Wolf_Q,
for what you say you want to use it for, I really think Candy's
idea about training for the "lunging" problem is a better idea.
I think the prong collar used in the right way & for certain dogs
is not bad in itself. Some dogs don't lunge playfully, but they
are terrible "pullers" when walking. So I think for some dogs
in some situations, it can be a good alternative.