New York Bear attack

[lizbud]

SugarGirl,

Hey Paul, aren't you glad you posted this thread topic?
Just kidding.

This incident with the bear and the child is tragic, for the
human family that lost a child and also sad that so called
wild bears would associate a campsite of humans in the
animal's habitat as a food source.


"We are human beings, and while we benefit from treating animals kindly, our first allegiance is to the human race. It is ridiculous to demand that if a bear is shot for attacking people that human beings should be killed on site with no trial or basic humane accomodation for similar crimes. Where are your priorities?!! "

SugarGirl, have you ever read any articles by Andrew Vachss?
He is an American lawyer & child advocate in abuse cases and
also a lover of animals. Please read "Our Endangered Species"
and let me know how you feel about his observations on just
how "Humane" our species really is.
Oh btw, welcome to Pet Talk. It is a treat to discuss opinions
with a person who can state their case in a civil & rational
manner.

The link to the article is here;
http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9803_a.html

[SugarGirl]

Thanks for the article. I love it when people give me new things to think about and explore.

When I saw the name Andrew Vachs, it sounded familiar. After reading the article, I'm still wondering where I've read his stuff before. It'll come to me eventually.

Let me say this, I am hesitant to subscribe to Mr. Vachs line of reasoning. There are some definite incongruencies there. First off, the animal kingdom is far less morally inclined than we are. Any animal behaviourist will tell you that rape, incest, murder (including infanticide) and general violence are far from unheard of in the animal kingdom. Yes, there are systems of behaviour in place for different species, but let's be realistic. I think it's very easy to idealise animals. Especially when we are so far removed from nature these days. It's easy to forget how harsh it can be. My second issue with his argument is that only recently have we as a society begun to report incidents of abuse, etc. We have no idea how many cases of incest occured in the America of 1768, and we never will. It's hard for me to believe that these are recent phenomenons.

I guess how you deal with abuse all comes down to what you really want in the end. I see the "eye for an eye" approach to be something of the stone age. Sure, it feels good to have immediate retribution but will it solve anything in the long-term? Undoubtedly people deserve to be punished, but at what point will a society ask "why do we have all of these problems in the first place?" Could it be our values? Could it be the depression and hopelessness of unemployment? My opinion is that until you remedy the larger causes of crime, you will only continue to create more monsters, regardless of how many offenders are locked up.

On the issue of humanity, I believe that while we are members of the animal kingdom, we are separate and capable of much more. I don't believe that nature (without civilisation) is necessarily horrible, but there is a general amoralness about it that hinges upon survival. Therefore, I see civilisation as something to aspire to as it transcends mere survival and works to better the lives of everyone in as equal of a manner as possible. Being "humane" is not an impossibility to me, I continue to believe that most people aspire to living in communities and societies that are reasoned and humane. Otherwise, we might as well not have bothered in the first place.


*Mugsy*

I see your point about your pets in the fire, but I think that's a separate issue as it only involves you and your pets. This seems like more of an issue of proximity. Would you die for a racoon stuck in a burning house? Probably not...

[SugarGirl]

Thanks for the considered reply.

My question to you, specifically, was where in the article did it state that she left the baby alone in the middle of the woods? By making that statement, you made an assumption and implied that you held the mother responsible. That, to me, seems wrong, misinformed and quite unfair. But don't mistake me, your opinion (or anyone else's) does not offend me. What offends me are judgments made on other people, which are somewhat different from simple opinions. I was genuinely curious as to how you made the leap about the baby being in the middle of the woods completely alone.

Can I ask this (of everyone) why is no one talking about the father? Is he not as responsible for the welfare of his children?

As for all of the crime/justice issues, I was not referring to this case directly. What I was trying to do was raise a larger question about the topic. The term "wild west vigilante justice" was not in reference to this case.

[SugarGirl]

I think I can distinguish when someone is voicing their opinion or not, and you do not need to preface everything you say by telling me that it is your opinion and that I do not have to agree with it. I'm well aware of that. Now, I don't care if people want to write their opinions in the sky, but dear, let it be known that when you show me yours, I will show you mine. That's the problem with opinions, you can't air yours with the expectation that it will not be confronted.

Your callous attitude offends me. That's my problem, but I have no problem stating that. Sorry if you can't handle refutation. I think you can take your own words of advice (they're my opinions, don't care if you're offended, blah, blah, blah).

This could have been constructive. You could have been reasonable and shown me a good reason why you like to make judgments on people/situations you have no first-hand knowledge about. But you didn't. You just lost your cool and got out of control. Furthermore, you didn't even try to see my point of view.

Just be careful, ToughCookie, life gives back what you put out. That same judgment could befall you one day, and I hope you have someone like me defending you when it comes.

[Aspen and Misty]

Edited by myself to pull out the things I needed to....

Originally posted by SugarGirl
people like PETA, who put animals above people. we definitely differentiate between animals and humans.
It just means that things need to be contextualised, and ultimately human rights are above animal rights.
We are not equals.

Last time I heard anyone say that was the debate between the dead chipmunk in the goats water. Should the bowl be sanatized or not? Well the owner of the place said no they are animals why do they need clean water? So we asked him were people why should we have clean water? Yea he shut up. Well my point is, if there was a chipmunk in your animals water, Sugargirl, would you clean it out, or just say o they are animals they don't need clean water? Cuase I know for a fact that I would clean the water dishes everyday, dead chipmunk or not.

Ash

[SugarGirl]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
I'll just take a guess, though. I'm guessing that you think I don't think animals should have a right to basic needs. This would be wrong. I suggest you go back and read what I said. I'm not against ANIMAL WELFARE. I'm against people saying that animals' rights supercede my own and then unleash sick and infected lab animals upon the public. I think we're talking apples and oranges here.

[SugarGirl]

"Im not going to get into any more of a moral or any other kind of debate"

The reason why you did continue with this "kind of debate" by replying to my post is because you can't stand the thought of me disagreeing with you. Now that that's out of the way...

I do not know more than anyone else about the bear incident, which is why I'm making no judgments about it and why I feel no one else is qualified to.

P.S. A democracy is a state in which dissent/debate is not only tolerated, but the essence of its existence. A dictatorship is the absence of debate. Just thought you should know...

[SugarGirl]

You can call me self-righteous if you like. It probably makes you feel better to think that. I'd like to think that I'm just refraining from making judgments about people based on incomplete information. You can judge me all you like, you have some solid information into my reactions, thoughts, etc. However, you don't know anything about the placement of the mother in relation to the baby, the character of mother, etc. When you do, feel free. You felt it necessary to comment plenty well before you'd even read the article in the first place. That's just lame.

I'm not an instigator, but when I feel like something is wrong I do speak my mind. Call it what you like. I hope you enjoy your mindless callousness towards strangers!

[Former User]

Oh come on, stop that already! It's not nice at all