Crate Training: how long is too long

[Michael]

Our dog is a year and a half old Mini Pomeranian we got from the pet shop with previous owner's reasons for giving her up unknown. She's a really good dog but... we've been crate training her for 3 months and she still goes in the house sometimes. We do take her out to go - up to 5 times a day (and she does go potty), but we still can't leave her alone in the house to wander without peeing and sometimes pooing. She also pees if she gets too excited, so we have to ignore her for about 5 minutes, take her out to pee right away, then we can pet her. We give her treats when she goes outside and scolded when she goes inside.

I can hardly admit it, but it's gotten to the point we are talking about giving her up. Even the kids are starting to agree that it does not seem fair to the dog to be in the crate for so long.

Any ideas appreciated.

note: I've started another thread: dog won't roll over. Maybe its related?

[Jessika]

Well to put it simply -- don't leave her alone to wander the house unsupervised. When she is out of the crate, keep her on a leash and keep her with you so you can supervise her. When you can't, then crate her. THE SECOND she starts acting like she needs to pee, bring her outside.

Have you brought her to the vet for a checkup to rule out any possible health problems that may be causing this?? Perhaps a bladder infection or something of the sort?

It's common among females, and dogs in general, to pee when they get very excited, so you're doing right by ignoring her right away and giving her attention only after she settles down.

A year-and-a-half to me is still kind of a puppy, so give her a chance. How long have you had her, 3 months? I've had my pups for over two years now and they are still crated when I leave the house or even overnight sometimes when Jamie starts peeing throughout the night, even after letting her out right before bed. So don't worry about it

EDIT: Another idea - when she goes inside, ignore her completely. Don't bring any attention to her or the mess. When she goes outside, lavish her with praise and attention. She will learn that going outside she gets attention, going inside she gets nothing. Because even negative attention is still attention to dogs, and all dogs craaaaaave attention. So as frustrating as it will be, I know, just completely ignore her and the mess when she goes inside.

[Michael]

Thank you for your reply. Good advice and will indeed try ignoring any inside mess. The first thing that really stands out is that 3 months may not be a long time afterall... just that seeing her in the crate so much, we almost felt like we had gotten a bird, not a dog :-)

It gets discouraging when you hear dogs getting trained in a matter of days or weeks. I guess on the bright side, we did train her to stay and to shake a paw, and stop licking us non-stop. We just got to be more patient on the pooing and stop feeling so guilty about the crating. She doesn't go in the crate. So when do we know she is ready to come out of the crate... trial and error I suppose...

We sure hope one day she can wander freely about the house.

Thank you again.

[Hellow]

My mom and I think that it is inhumane to keep a dog in a little cage. My dog has free rome of my house even when we are gon somewhere. I have never crate trained her and never will. That applies to any dogs that i own in the future. That is just my opinion about crate training.

P.S. if you want to have her stop peeing and pooping in the house, always spray a bad smelling non-toxic spray sold at pet stores. This stuff is not smellable to humans.

[Lady's Human]

If done properly crate training is NOT inhumane. It gives the dog a "cave" to be in, and in many cases dogs feel secure, not punished.

[catnapper]

First, never use the crate as punishment. It sounds like you may be. What is your reaction to her when she does pee or poo in the house? When do you put her in the crate? Does she willingly go to the crate? Is being let out 5 times a day enough? I let my own dog out twice that. NEVER EVER let her out of your sight. Leash her to your belt if you have to. I tell my student "shame on you if your dog messes when you're not watching" Its not their fault - its yours for neglecting to monitor them. Would you leave a toddler alone ina room with knives and walk away? I'm sure you wouldn't.... and you shouldn't ever leave an un-trained dog alone! I have oodles more info on potty training but said it over and over again in previous threads and I'm feeling icky so I don't feel like typing it all out again Please do a search here in the dog behavior section for potty training hints. Its easy once you realize what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong.

Second, never ignore her for the submissive peeing. It'll only make matters worse. There are threads here on submissive peeing. Please look them up as there are lots and lots of fantastic ideas in the threads.

Three months is nothing in doggy time. My husand had a lab/doxie mix and when we got married, Sammie had no idea that outside was for potty. After 6t long months, she was finally starting to make headway. I'm sure we would have had another 6 months to go.... only she passed away beforeshe was fully potty trained.

[Hellow]

Well I tried Crate Training on my dog and i followed everything the books and videos said. After 6 months she still was whining and crying and i just couldent put up with it any more. I kept her in her crate during the night and when we were gone and i let her out at the times advised. THATS why I think that it is inhumane. Yes, she still uses the crate as a bed with the door OPEN.

[flipgirl]

I'm not against crate training but I think the key is to teach the dog that the crate is a good thing. When you tell your dog to go to the crate, you should say 'crate' or 'kennel' and throw treats into the cage or even feed your dog water and food in the cage so he/she associates a good experience with the crate. Then praise your dog when he enters it voluntarily but don't react when he leaves it. Eventually, you will be able to close the door. Close the door for a second then open it. If your dog doesn't get anxious, then leave the door closed for a longer period. Open the door BEFORE he starts getting anxious not when he gets anxious...the key is not to reward his anxiety or barking or whining but to avoid anxiety. Keep doing this making the times that the door is closed longer until you've gotten to 1.5 hours. Then he should be able to stay in the crate for a long period.

You can also confine your dog to the kitchen or get an exercise pen and he can use this as his den. You can even tether your dog to a specific area but you must teach him that this is a good thing. Dogs naturally go to their den for a safe haven so these ways, you can give him one.

Does your dog always go outside? I would recommend taking him outside every hour and then when you've figured out his schedule, you can take him outside at these times. If he doesn't go outside, put him back in his crate and he will probably want to go to the bathroom. Then once he's more reliable in peeing outside, then you can give him more freedom outside the crate. Eventually, he'll be able to have full run of the house. But I would first check with your vet to make sure that he doesn't have something going on.

Mind you, I have a friend who's had two dogs and never crated them and her dogs were fully housetrained in 6 months. Yes it's a longer time but if you think that a crate is inhumane, try confining your dog to a smaller space.

I/m sure I've said everything that you've already heard already but if you're uncomfortable using the crate, don't use it. Just be more consistent in taking him outside. Maybe you can teach him to give you a signal (I'm assuming that he doesn't do this now so disregard these comments if he does). For example, I hung a toy tambourine from the doorknob of my patio door and trained my dog to hit it with her paw when she wants to go outside. To train her, I hung her favourite doll (or you could use a treat) on the other side of the door. When she gives me the right behaviour (i.e. hitting the tambourine), then I let her out the door to get her doll. Keep in mind you have to keep this in control as it could become a game and your dog could hit the bell every 2 seconds!!! But maybe it's an issue of you not catching his signals.

Hope this helps.

[Jessika]

To my dogs, the crate is their bedroom and their safe haven.

They are only crated while we are gone, and only Jamie is crated overnight when she starts having a bad spell about peeing inside overnight. Charlie is 110% housebroken.

I find it interesting... the crate is left open at all times when we are at home. When Charlie gets bored or tired, or is feeling a little anxious/stressed (if we have company over or there is a lot of commotion going on) he will go and lie down inside his crate.

I do not believe crating is "cruel" or "inhumane" if done properly and with the right intentions. In fact, I think of it as being a GOOD thing, especially when I am not home to supervise them.

Before we got our crate, one night while we were at work, Jamie and Charlie had got into a bottle of pills that we thought we put far back enough on the counter that they wouldn't get into it. Well I'm assuming the cat knocked them down. They chewed it open and ate some of the pills (I believe it was percoset). I came home to discover this... and freaked out. They had to be rushed to the emergency vet to have their stomachs pumped.

Another time, same story, except with 2lbs of chocolate nut fudge. The cat got it out, the dogs into it, and as you all know... chocolate is bad, especially in high quantities. That time we used hydrogen peroxide to make Jamie vomit it all back up, but those two times were enough to scare me into getting one. Because even though you may think its safe............ the cat is always plotting against them. At least that's what I believe, anyway!! LOL

So for me, not only is it to help with housetraining, its for their own safety!!

I understand crating is not for everyone, and not everyone agrees with it. However, one shouldn't be made to feel like they are "wrong" for crating. It's a personal choice, and one that has worked for me and probably saved my dog's lives. Once I can trust the cat more while we're gone (yes, the CAT gets into things and knocks things down, not the dogs!! lol!!) then they will be free to roam while we are away.

Also, I don't have them in a "tiny" cage. Their crate is actually large enough for a 110lb dog. Much larger than recommended for house training, anyway. But it's worked for us and they are safe and that's what matters to me more than anything else.

[Hellow]

My dog ate a whole plate full of Hersheys Kisses and the wrapper and all. We gave her Hydrogen Peroxide and she didn't vomit. The chocolate didnt hurt her a bit, just made her hyper.

[Jessika]

My dog ate a whole plate full of Hersheys Kisses and the wrapper and all. We gave her Hydrogen Peroxide and she didn't vomit. The chocolate didnt hurt her a bit, just made her hyper.

Yeah it depends on a number of factors, really. One dog can eat a pound of chocolate and be fine, another dog can eat an ounce of chocolate and be fatal. It depends on the size of the dog, the concentration of theobromine (the darker the chocolate, the more theobromine present), their digestive system... I mean a huuuuge number of factors.

[Michael]

I don't know what changed - what made her click.. but Hammy has started whining when she needs to go out to the toilet. We kept her in a large caged area, not a crate and if we are near and she needs to go, she makes a quiet noise and we bring her out and praise her greatly. There have been a couple of accidents (she complains very quietly), but for the most part, its working. Thanks again to all on the post who have given advice.

[IRescue452]

I'm glad she's starting to let you know. DO let her out more often though, as small dogs have smaller bladders and holding it could cause an infection. She shouldn't get to a point where she is really whining to go. She is a MINI POMERANIAN. That tells you she is a puppy mill dog. Make sure the vet rules out any inherited issues. Even hypoglycemia can cause a dog to go more. Such tiny dogs should also be fed several small meals a day rather than one or two large. As they eat meals more often, they also have to go out more often. You should take a look at some sites dedicated to the spedific care of "teacup" and tiny dogs which often have more special needs than the typical dog.

Reggie, what happens if there is an emergency someday and your dog needs to be crated to keep it safe? Crate training is not cruel. Keeping a dog in a crate 24 hours a day without proper care is cruel, but crate training is not.

Another idea for the pomie is bell training. Get some large jingle bells from the craft store. Tie them with string of yarn to the doorknob at the dog's nose level. Each time you bring her out, point out the bells and get her to sniff them or paw at them enough that they make noise. Praise her and take her out. After some time of this she should learn to connect the bells with going potty.