Aggressiveness in response to submissiveness?

[catnapper]

Ok folks, I need thinking caps again.

One of my dogs in class seems to respond nastily to another dog or human showing signs of submission. The first class, a lab romped up to her and licked her nose. She snapped and snarled. Another, dominant type dog walked up to her and they got along like best buddies - her body language was awesome. I pulled her out of class (for protection of the 3 other submissive dogs) and am working one-on-one with her and her hoomans.

Apparently she also shows signs of aggression when the CHILDREN get down on the floor with her to cuddle. Mom is freaking out because she knows her kids are first priority. But she also adores this dog. Every time I've met her, she's a fabulous dog. Very willing to obey, eager to please, etc. Even when the kids are romping in the training center, she's rmping and playing beautifully. You can tell she adores her human siblings..... its just when the kids lay on the floor with her or get in her face, etc.

She's about 2 years old, with the family nearly 6 months. Spayed as soon as the family adopted her. No known info on her past life. She's a mix of a few "bully" breeds.

I have ot run now, so I'm sure I missed some info on the story..... any help appreciated since I'd like to see if I can save this dog from being returned to a high-kill shelter.

[borzoimom]

Honey- this isn't good. A dog that will be aggressive with a child is one thing- one that becomes aggressive with the show of any " submissive posture" ( laying on the floor example) is much worse. The dog sees a weakness- this is not good. For the sake of the children- my imediate suggestion is to remove the dog from the house of small children. I could suggest a trainer and/or behaviorist but I am concerned. Especially with the report of being a "bully" mix breeds of sorts.
I only placed one dog in my life- a import that didnt understand children- went to live with a family with no children- but this was a trained dog- just no tolerance for young children. However- NEVER showed any aggression towards my daughter in a laying down posture etc. The dog is obviously highly confused or some thing is wrong in the brain- none can be determined without removing the dog from a home with children if nothing else- the protection of the children.
I am afraid any other answers- without seeing the dog, and this being over the internet- is not reasonable for me to say..

[DrKym]

Kim, I have to agree with Michelle here.
We both bred and trained what are considered "aggressive" breeds, because they excel in police work etc.

In this instance, the safety of the kids is highly jeopordized, I am sure Michelle remembers Conan a wonderful Rott import from Germany, he also had little tolerance for kids, and Rotts are usually wonderful with them. He was also placed (we are going back 15 years here guys), In a show home with no kids.

The behaviour you are describing is actually a fear type of aggression, I know it doesn't appear that way on the surface, but my guess would be that she got her butt whooped by a human or dog that appeared submissive. I.e. a person lying down, playing with her and all was well maybe a puppy nip set the human off who then yelled or hit or badly corrected the behaviour, or another dog that was on their back or in play mode that played too hard and hurt her.

Another thing to consider, if she is a mix of bully breeds, and you have no info on her past, it is very possible that some idiot used her in a bait situation, she now has a taste of dominance and safety in her mind so her fear creates the aggression issue with anything submissive, in other words she doesn't have the confidence to be dominant so agression is used.

Please be aware that this can escalate very quickly, and lets face it anything larger than a Pom (you all know what I mean) is a real threat to any child. My own dogs included if they were so inclined. The childrens safety is priorty here as you said. I would seriously consider helping her rehome this animal for her sake and for her human siblings sake.
Just my opinion.

Kym

[borzoimom]

your Conan- my "Amouph" ( pronounced am- off)...

[Giselle]

IMO, it sounds like she's a beta type dog. Never can get to Alpha-hood, but tries d@mn hard to get there. I read a bit about wolves and how they can shatter the pecking order as soon as a member shows the slightest weakness in body language, and this certainly reminds me of that scenario. Beta-type dogs are not true alphas. Therefore, they do use force and things can easily escalate to fights. They are also in constant fear of having their status revoked, so they do lash out and they do display what you see as aggression. My honest opinion is that there is no true alpha in this family and the dog is taking it upon himself as beta to protect his status, even if that means lashing at the subordinates (the children and submissive dogs). I would encourage the woman's children to take active parts in training and to put NILIF into high gear. I would also remind the woman that her dog needs its own space. I would NEVER allow any child to get near any sleeping dog, and I certainly would *never* allow any child or adult to get in any dog's face. That is a major breech of dog etiquette and I would go so far as to say that any resulting bite is not undeserved.

[mike001]

If it was my dog I wouldn't take a chance, I would rehome it. My kids would always come first. Accident waiting to happen.

[borzoimom]

I am afraid so- I agree with Mike001..

[catnapper]

Well, I meet with the family again tonight. I am honestly afraid that they might have to rehome her. I told them for homework last week to write down EVERY incident, no matter how small. Write down what they were wearing, what time of day, what activities were going on, etc. If we can find one unifying thing we might be able to save her by removing whatever that is. For example, my mom's terrier ALWAYS attacked when she saw young men wearing chains on their belt. We always made them remove their belts before entering the house. Voila, no problems. I hope the answer can be this simple for the dog in question.

[borzoimom]

Writing it down is a good idea. It also puts in writing for them to see how much the problem really is..
I am concerned- passive aggression ( beta or alpha) with small children could have devestating results. Also remember- as a trainer- you open yourself for liability as well if something happens in some states. ...

[borzoimom]

In todays news- and this was a 6 year old child and their own dogs.. http://www.nbc4.com/news/10841903/de...=headlineclick