slightly aggressive dog

[frenchgirl]

Hello everyone I am a new member and am currently experiencing a problem with our dog. I have a 3 year old male border collie x beagle who is an absolute love machine. He was on his last 12 hours at the local animal shelter when we adopted him, and we knew he came with some "issues". MOst of those we have managed to clear up and solve the problems, except the one I am writing about now.

He has a slight passive aggressive approach towards my husband at certain times. He is very well kennel trained, and will not make a fuss when I send him to his kennel, but when my husband does it, he growls and barks and snarls at him - he still goes in but with a huge protest) and will lunge at the kennel door while my husband is shutting it. Also, unless we are at the vets, Oz (the dog) REFUSES to let my husband pick him up...snarling and growling entails. Also, it seems that after a certain time at night, usually around 10 pm, he gets "grumpy" and gets extremely irritated at BOTH of us if we make too much noise...this includes playing with the cats, having a heated discussion or whatever...he will eyeball us and give us the border collie infamous glare 'n growl. We pet him...he is growling and snarling, yet when we stop, he is nudging us and pressing up against us not to stop, so we pet him again and he starts again, only having us stop and ignore him and he basically crawls up on us for pats. I have called in a behavior-ist who will be here in about three weeks, but I was hoping someone else would also have gone through this with their dog and could give me any fresh ideas. We have tried everything our obediance owner suggested, i have read and re-read everything I can get my hands on. We know he was horribly abused and he has come such a long way and we love him to pieces. I know there is a way around this behaviour but I need some help.

Any suggestions??

[Dixieland Dancer]

The dog doesn't recognize your husband as the alpha in the home. Personally though this is the perfect thread to escalate to our very own dear sweet Carrie. I will email her and let her know to check this out. She is also a canine behaviorist.

[frenchgirl]

Thanks for your reply!! I was thinking it could possibly be and alpha issue. We know a man terribly abused him for the first year and a half of his life. However, he is overly eager to please (the husband) most of the time. Sit,stay,come all of that, he does it on one command where me I (sometimes) have to repeat myself 2 or 3 times before he will do the command.
Even if I physically sit him, his butt will pop back up and we do it again. It doesn't happen all the time, and I do think part of that is his breed, but I am more concerned with the almost split personality he shows towards the hubby. Its like he trusts him but doesn't trust him...at least not all the way.

Yet, when he is in his growly mode and he wants pats at the same time, he will often lie down and expose his belly to both of us, sometimes letting out a small trickle of urine. We have never and will never raise our hand to him (or any of our other animals).
Its like he is telliing the husband to "back off" but "oh pet me please I am sorry for growling."

[Danna]

I'm sorry I can't help you with your problem, I just wanted to say that your doggie is very lucky to have such a caring mommy. Good luck in working things out with him.

Danna

[Dixieland Dancer]

Ok, I'm not Carrie but I'll give this a try! I changed my original opinion by your additional information. I do not think it is a dominance aggression as I originally thought but more of a fear aggression. When the dog listens to your husband he is doing it out of fear and not out of a love based relationship. Fear-induced aggression can be distinguished from dominance-based aggression by body language. Fear-aggressive dogs typically display submissive body language (ears back, often flat against the head; avoiding direct eye contact; lowering the head and body; tucking tail between the legs; even submissive urination). Sometimes they roll over to expose their bellies. The roots of fear aggression can be severe physical or verbal punishment at an earlier age. And dogs have a long memory when it comes to remembering those who hurt them but they also have a very forgiving nature, so there is hope! There is work to be done to correct this problem but with consistent, positive approaches the dog does have the ability to get past this.

First everyone needs to be on the same page. So organize a family meeting to discuss the plan of action and realize that this is temporary until things get better between the dog and your husband. This plan must include EVERYONE in your household.

Here's the plan! Simply stated, RETRAIN the dog. This is also known as desensitizing or counter conditioning the dog. Until the problem is overcome, the only person who will feed the dog, give treats, pet, walk or play with the dog will be the one to whom the dog expressed aggression, your husband. Let your husband be the one the dog must depend on for positive actions. When the dog displays negative behaviors, have another family member take the necessary corrective action. During the retraining period, other family members should avoid interaction with the dog so that the feared person can be the dog's center of attention. When the dog obeys a command, your husband should praise and give a treat to the dog.

Some other things to incorporate into reconditioning the dog:

- Use positive reinforcement to train the dog. Reward appropriate behavior with treats, praise, petting and play. Your husband is builing the dog's trust from scratch. In the eyes of the dog, he must EARn the dog's trust by displaying only positive interactions.

- Don't punish the dog for bad behavior. This is why he is in this condition to start with. Instead, use humane, positive, properly executed corrections.

- Don't reward a dog for aggressive behavior. Ignoring the dog goes a long way in shaping behavior.

- Fearful dogs don't like surprises. Don't come from behind to pet the dog, don't make sudden movements that the dog can interpret as something other than what it was intended to be.

- Make sure the dog is getting plenty of exercise (20 - 30 minutes a day minimum) preferrably with your husband where there is just play, no commands or teaching other than what would be used in a playful situation.

Your husband needs to become leader of the pack. The dog needs to realize ALL GOOD THINGS come from daddy! Be Patient, retraining can take several weeks and must be done daily during this period.

[frenchgirl]

Hi, this if Frnchgrrrl's hubby.
Oz doesn't always growl at me when he is sent to his kennel, only when I close the door. 90% of the time he'll go to his kennel fine without protest, usually after being told once, but sometimes will need an "OZZIE, what did I say?" or an 'I- mean-it' exagerated clearing of the throat...the odd time he gives a low growl of 'I don't wanna but I will' and goes in fine...Me closing the door is what he seems mainly to have a problem with, as far as the pastic kennel in the house goes. However, the wire the kennel is in the van he has absolutely no problems with what-so-ever, and is happy as heck.

As a separate issue, we are defintely quite confused with his growlling & snapping and then the next instant/simultaneously being a big suck & submissive at the same time...It is like he has mini Schizophrenic episodes. Usually this happens in the evening hours. Its like he's a child who is due for his nap/bedtime, really.

We love him to pieces, (the cats aren't all that fond of him, unfortunately, but he seems to like & respect most of them) and as my wife mentioned, we rescued him 3 days away from being put down as 'unadoptable'. He has come such a long way. He was a pretty good dog when we first got him, he just needed a loving family & a some basic obedience training. The foster family that fostered him was wonderful, but weren't being allowed to keep him any longer due to 'policy'. He had gotten an undeserved bad rep from 2 families who obviously created excuses to bring him back to the HS. It is obvious to me that those 2 families weren't willing to work with him...examples of the type of people who create problem animals, not like those of us who love them and treat them like the children of our family they are. If anything were to happen to us, he now has at least 3 different families who would love to make him a member of their families. From "unwanted" to "in demand"!

[frenchgirl]

This is Frnchgrrrls' hubby again... I see we got a reply just befroe I submitted my commments.
Thank you, and we will definitely try them, as Ozzie is well worth it!

[Dixieland Dancer]

If you stay with the positive reinforcement only, everything should be fine. Especailly since you are willing to work with him. Let us know how it works out. Please give us a picture of him when you can.

[carrie]

Hi there to Frenchgirl and hubbie - Dixieland Dancer emailed me and I have read your posts on your problem. I haven't read anyone else's replies so if I repeat or totally go against someone else please understand that I have not read the other posts - also England are two nil up against Denmark in the World Cup (soccer) at the moment and it is VERY exciting so I may lose track now and then.........


OK - Your dog sounds like a love. His main problem is a confidence issue - both his and yours! He wants you to take care of him and tell him what he needs to do and yet he feels that you are not up to the job of being his leader so he is unable to follow instructions wholeheartedly.

I think you may be over compensating for his sad past and this is making his insecurity worse.....by making allowances and being too sympathetic you are making him feel that things are not alright (if you are making that much fuss then there MUST be something wrong!).

Why do you use a crate/cage/kennel? Your main problem goes away if the dog doesn't have to go in it.

How ever sweet this dog is you MUST be aware that it has the potential to bite and it is giving you the warning signals that say -"Back off or I am going to bite!" For this reason I advise you to leave a short lead on the dog while you are at home and especially in the evenings.

What the dog needs from you both is some VERY VERY strong leadership. The best way to give your dog what it needs is to act like strong Alpha wolf yourselves.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!THREE ------NIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOHOOOOOOOO!
It's not even half time yet!!!!!

This is not as easy as you would think and goes against what you really WANT to do for the dog -

When the dog asks for affection and cuddles you want to make a huge fuss of him - I want you to not look at the dog, not talk to him, cross your arms and look at each other - talk directly to each other as though the dog was not there (it helps to have picked out a "Dog" subject that you can talk about). If the dog actually jumps on to you then one of you must take the lead and walk to the dog's bed (not crate!), leave the dog there and return to your seat BUT you must not talk to or look at the dog the whole time - carry on your conversation with each other.

The dog will intensify it's efforts to be noticed - you will have to continue to pretend the dog is not there for this to work. If you get up for a beer or a cup of tea walk in a straight line without looking at the dog - push the dog out of your way with your legs if you have to but do not look at it and do not go around it.
When you get to the point where the dog has stayed away from you for ten minutes and has been relaxed (lying down) then call the dog quietly to you - tell it to sit....if the dog sits give it a little treat if you like and a gentle fuss before telling it quielty to go to bed (not crate!)......if the dog does not sit DO NOT repeat yourself! Just turn away from the dog and ignore it again.

Never give the dog any attention at all when the dog asks for it - the dog is testing your leadership to see how safe it is trusting you as the pack leader. So far you are not doing so well..... this leaves the dog with no option but to take on the role of pack leader itself. The dog knows that it is no good at this job and is desperate for you to take the responsibility of leadership off its shoulders but feels very insecure as you do not lead strongly. Hence the conflict in the dog.

An alpha wolf has complete control of the pack and a really good Alpha just does not acknowledge most of what goes on in the ranks but chooses to reward with recognition those that really please him.

This theory can be carried through to every part of life but the most important times are feeding times, every time you enter a room the dog is in and , for your dog, the evenings.

I have rambled on for far too long so maybe someone can give a link to where I explain the feeding method? If not, let me know and I will explain again.

Anything you are unsure of please ask - I will check back a couple of times here but feel free to email me at [email protected]
if there is anything else I can help with.

I would be really interested to know why you are using a crate/cage/kennel and what your thoughts about it are - do you feel it is necessary or are you using it because it was the advice you were given?
Good luck.

Thank you Candy! Lots of love to you!

[frenchgirl]

whew...wow carrie that is a lot to digest!

We have tried in the past to ignore Oz (see picture below...he is not growling in the pic but his floppy lips fall back when he is on his back to be patted and i think it looks hilarious). He will paw and nudge us and we ignore him (haven't tried the arms crossed while doing this yet this is one of the tactics we used to train him to not jump up on us). How long in general does one keep this up and what is the desired ending?? To let him know when he will get attention when we dish it out?? We tried this for about 3 weeks only and it seemed to semi work for awhile. Do we keep up this behaviour (giving him attention on "our terms") until he understands that we are the two leaders? What kind of sign will he then show that he accepts both of us as the alpha's??

The feeding program...he gets fed once a day and the food does not remain on the floor. I don't believe in free range feeding for various reasons for either cats and dogs. Is this the feeding prgram you are talking about?? We worked with him extensivly when we first got him as he was incredibly food possessive. Now, we can put our hands in his dish and/or mouth while he is eating and remove the food if need be or keep our hands in his dish while he is eating. occasionaly, he will back off and lie down and watch us and pant but he does not growl anymore. He still doesn't like it when we do this but he knows and has learned WE control the food in this house.

Kennel training...i am one of the people who believe in kennels for dogs. Not for punishment sake (as many people use kennels for) but because dogs are pack animals and i feel should have a place of their own to go. He gets about one hour a day of "ozzie time" in his kennel and otherwise he goes in there when company is coming over for the first 10-15 minutes as he "forgets" the command "off" and will proceed to jump up on guests for a little kissy. Once everyone is settled down he comes out and greets everyone. We never use kenneling for bad doggy behaviour....we never say "ozzie bad dog go to your kennel" as that is negative reinforcment. Otherwise, he actually likes his kennel. He will go in on his own plenty of times during the day and sleep or when we come back from the off leash park he drinks a million liters of water and sleeps in it for the next hour or two. We also did quite a bit of retraining him in his kennel to make it "fun" as we do know that one of his hang-ups was being abused and physically tortured in his kennel. Oz is very much a kennel possessive dog though. He would go after the humaine society attendants (growl, rush them, snarl) when they came to clean his kennel as it WAS HIS and NOBODY ELSE was allowed in...but when he went to a foster home he was a different dog...not Cujo at all. Anyway, I digress. We have worked with him SO MUCH in this year that we have had him and we have almost overcome most of the quirks and humps he possessed. The door to his kennel stays open the remainder of the day if its not his downtime or visitors are not coming over or something like that.

I guess we are probably compensating him too much still on his abused past. I know I think about it when he does something "bad" and how to correct the problem. WHat is the most effective way that is. We will have a try on ignoring him. If you can give me more information on this aspect that would be much appreciated.

Thanks and you didn't ramble on at all! I hope your team won!!

[Dixieland Dancer]

I knew Carrie would have excellent advice for you. I just wanted to comment on what a cute belly Ozzie has!!!

[frenchgirl]

ozzie gives all kisses and paws and sends love your way!! So do his owners!!!

[lizbud]

Ozzie is such a Handsome dog. I love the sweet look of him.
Thanks to you and your husband for taking on this boy, even
though he comes with "baggage". You guys are helping him
"unpack" and discard the old bad learned behavior.I am very
happy that Oz has you both to count on, Best of luck. Liz.

P.S. Thanks for posting his pictures.

[carrie]

Ok - let me get the theory bit out of the way - and hold on this will be another long one!!
My methods are based on the way dogs and wolves communicate with each other.
To my mind there are many kinds of wolf leaders - but for our purposes we can divide them into two groups - leaders who are weak and have to use physical means to control the pack and those that are strong and never seem to have a problem. The second type is the one I want to be and the only way to do it is to take on the language of that strong Alpha wolf.
The actual structure of a pack with a very strong leader needs to be understood too - the leader is a God - he seems to do nothing at all but when he moves then the whole pack knows what is going on. This animal needs to have a level of self confidence that domestic dogs just don't come close to - even those people that say they have a very Alpha dog do not know the half of it! This animal is one out of every 250 wolves that are born!


Our dogs still speak wolf language and don't understand human - I think it is only fair to make it as easy as we can for them to understand what we want from them and therefore to use the language they understand the best - especially when things are getting difficult.

So - I try to use the very strong Alpha leader language and have found that this has a magic affect on dogs - although it is very hard for most humans to get their heads around!!!!

Let me explain my feeding routine and if that makes sense along with what I have already said then we are talking around the same.

Feeding time at the same time every day is good. Put the dog's bowl on the counter and prepare it as normal. Put a small plate next to the dog's bowl and put a couple of grapes, a cracker, a small biscuit....anything small that you can eat......on the plate. All humans in the house must then eat a bit of what is on the plate and then put the plate in the dishwasher/sink. This must take place with no contact (eye, vocal or physical) with the dog. Now feed the dog and walk away for ten minutes before coming back and picking up the dish the dog ate from. This is the way to take control of food in a way the dog will understand because it is natural.

This is a very strong message to the dog - leaders eat first and it doesn't matter what you do.....the leaders eat first.
by sticking your hands in Oz's food bowl you are giving him very mixed signals - here is your food, it is your turn to eat - but now I'm changing my mind and think you should eat before me because I am sticking my hand in to get a bit more - now it is yours again......but now I have changed my mind and need to put my hand in again......Your dog only sees that you are in contact with the food and does not understand that you haven't taken any....By repeating this you are showing over and over that you can't be trusted with leadership as you don't follow the most basic rules ( your dog backing off from the food when your hand is in it and especially him lying down and panting are signs of stress!!!!) Your dog will be confused by you letting him have his turn to eat (as he sees it) and then you come back in and say that it really isn't his turn.....that is human s doing the rank thing - not dogs.

The ignoring of the dog is an art form.

The first time you ignore the dog properly may take two or three hours!!!!! Usually it is around an hour and half to two hours - my best advice is to pick a day and start from the moment youget up.

England did win 3 -0 and now have to play Brazil (yikes!!!!!).

The USA have got to the next round for the first time since 1930 (the very first World Cup!) after their 2-0 win against Mexico this morning. Well done you guys!

[frenchgirl]

i will definatley try the food idea with Oz. I was origianally told to try this out from one of our obedience trainers. My biggest concern is that he is still unconfortable around kids (last owners kids just tortured the heck out of him also) and I want him to know and understand that yes, we DO control the food in the house but also be ok with us taking his food away and touching his food. My biggest concern is that when my friends children come over (2 years and under) they don't always understand not to touch of go into a dog's food dish, no matter how close we watch them. I am concerned of him snapping at one of them, even though his dish is empty...I usually remember taking it off the floor so there is no reason for that situation to occur.

When we try the feeding situation, how do we originally get Oz to not eat the food if we are not supposed to have verbal contact with him? Do i sit/stay him or down/stay him in sight of us while we much on the food? If i don't give him a command, knowing Oz, he will think its a freebie!!

I am really fascinated by this. Have you learned all of your information through books? Is there any you would recommend? I am very interested in this. I would like to be Oz's strong alpha wolf...i know he has strong potential in him for many things and i would like to bew the one to bring out those traits.

Also...we take Oz out immediatley when we get up. How would we go about this if we start the ignoring process right from the wake up??
Thanks so much Carrie for all of your advise so far. I could talk to you for ages!!