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Thread: Welcome to America! Where we tell you what religion you can or cannot practice.

  1. #1
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    Welcome to America! Where we tell you what religion you can or cannot practice.

    I fear for our future. Land of the Free, my @$$.

    And here I just finished a book about the Salem Witchhunts and thought to myself...wow, I'm so happy I live in a society where I can practice my beliefs.

    Yeah.

    Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs

    Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs
    Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.

    By Kevin Corcoran
    [email protected]

    An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."

    The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.

    Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.

    Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.

    Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.

    The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school.

    "There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.

    But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.

    Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January.

    "This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."

    The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.

    Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside.

    Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son.

    "When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"

    Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.

    "Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."

    Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University.

    "The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."

    At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally.

    "Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."

    Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.

    Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis.

    "That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstrued."

    The couple married in February 1995, and their divorce was final in February 2004.

    As Wiccans, the boy's parents believe in nature-based deities and engage in worship rituals that include guided meditation that Jones says improved his son's concentration. Wicca "is an understanding that we're all connected, and respecting that," said Jones, who is a computer Web designer.

    Jones said he does not consider himself a witch or practice anything resembling witchcraft.

    During the divorce, he told a court official that Wiccans are not devil worshippers. And he said he does not practice a form of Wicca that involves nudity.

    "I celebrate life as a duality. There's a male and female force to everything," Jones said. "I feel the Earth is a living creature. I don't believe in Satan or any creature of infinite evil."
    Last edited by ramanth; 05-26-2005 at 04:00 PM.
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  2. #2
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    I know. Why doesn money say "in god we trust"? Because when they stopped keeping the same ammout worth of silver to paper money and coinage people were worried so they put "in god.." also, got wasn't in the pledge of alleigence untill the 50s. I have a pre-god dollar!

    Niņo & Eliza



  3. #3
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    What the heck? I helped hubby do a lesson plan on the witch hunts last year, and I too was enlightened to how far our country has come in dealing with differences... this is just plain wrong!

  4. #4
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    I feel as time goes on, America is becoming less and less a "free nation." It is very sad
    Mom to Raven and Rudy the greyhound

    Missing always: Tasha & Tommy, at the Rainbow Bridge

  5. #5
    "In God we Trust " has been on US Coinage since the civil war. It didn't appear on paper money until 1956, however that has nothing to do with the currency being fixed to a metal standard. The US went away from the gold standard in 1971, well after the motto appeared on paper currency. The motto's appearance on paper currency was simply an extension of an 1834 federal law requiring the phrase on US coinage.

    The ruling is disturbing on many levels, but is likely to be thrown out about 30 seconds after getting to a real court.

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by Lady's Human


    The ruling is disturbing on many levels, but is likely to be thrown out about 30 seconds after getting to a real court.

    The Republican judge who made this ruling is the presiding
    judge of all 32 county superior courts.I agree, it will be reversed
    in another descision. Even the U S Army recoginizes Wicca as
    a valid choice for religious observation.
    I've Been Boo'd

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    Today is the oldest you've ever been, and the youngest you'll ever be again.

    Eleanor Roosevelt

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by K9soul
    I feel as time goes on, America is becoming less and less a "free nation." It is very sad
    -sigh- Same here.

    It's so "land of the free" when we're banning certain beloved pets and not allowing people to marry who they wish.

  8. #8
    By the Marion county Website, he is the presiding judge of the executive council of the Marion county superior court, not in charge of all 32 counties, just the one.


    and what, praytell, does his affiliation as a republican have to do with the price of tea in China? There are intolerant idiots in all political parties.

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Lady's Human
    By the Marion county Website, he is the presiding judge of the executive council of the Marion county superior court, not in charge of all 32 counties, just the one.


    and what, praytell, does his affiliation as a republican have to do with the price of tea in China? There are intolerant idiots in all political parties.
    I found it very ironic that an Indiana judge (Republican), is doing
    exactly what the President accuses independant federal judges
    of doing. Expressing personal opinion, not LAW, in basing their rulings.

    This judge is both executive of the council (which he organized)
    and also chief judge of all the other county judges in superior
    courts.

    http://indianalawblog.com/archives/2...ourts_101.html
    I've Been Boo'd

    I've been Frosted






    Today is the oldest you've ever been, and the youngest you'll ever be again.

    Eleanor Roosevelt

  10. #10
    I think that you'll find that in family courts the judges opinions and not the laws rule in many instances. Just ask people who are paying child support how the judge decided. In some cases it's by the book, but there are many that I know of where the judge said "because that's what I think you should pay". Just ask a father who is trying to gain custody of his children how much the law comes into play in family court. There have been many cases in Worcester County MA where a particular judge has given custody of the children to the mother because she believed mothers raised children, not fathers. Had nothing to do with either parent's fitness as a parent, just the judge's belief.

    Again, I fail to see what the judge's political affilitation has to do with anything. Zell Miller is a democrat who is more conservative than many republicans, and the current Governor of CA (Arnie ) is more liberal than many democrats. that's just two on the national scene, and there are probably hundreds of elected officials whose beliefs in no way shape or form follow their theoretical party affiliation.

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by lizbud
    Even the U S Army recoginizes Wicca as
    a valid choice for religious observation.
    I know many Wiccans and like in all religions, some of them are great people and some of them are not-so-great. We live in a place that says we have 'freedom of religion' so it shouldn't matter if our religion is mainstream or recongized by organizations like the military. If I worshipped rocks (which I don't ), as long as I was not infringing on the rights of anyone else, why shouldn't I teach my child to worship rocks as well?
    Proud meowmy of Weezie, Eepie, Grey Girl and Neko...or Weezer Peezer, Eepie Peepie, Grey Grey and Neko the Gecko as they are commonly known!

  12. #12
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    I'm starting the Church of Pets, where you can worship your pets, free of persecution.
    ~Kimmy, Zam, Logan, Raptor, Nimrod, Mei, Jasper, Esme, & Lucy Inara
    RIP Kia, Chipper, Morla, & June

  13. #13
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    Kimmy,

    Sign me up!!!

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  14. #14
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    Originally posted by ramanth
    I'm starting the Church of Pets, where you can worship your pets, free of persecution.
    Might as well make it official since I already worship them at home
    Mom to Raven and Rudy the greyhound

    Missing always: Tasha & Tommy, at the Rainbow Bridge

  15. #15
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    I like that one!

    9/3/13
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