White Shepherds

[Ceph]

throwing peoples words and mistakes back in their faces is insulting, and you have done it multiple times.

come off it.... Let the white german shepherd people here have our thread, and if you feel the need to start a thread about why you think GSDs are awsome then go ahead and do it....but let us have our own beliefs. We didn't bash on GSDs, we just happen to think ours are better (I think my husky shepherd pup could beat any dog any day in temperment and in looks...but thats because he is mine and he is wonderful)...you prolly feel the same about your dogs. Dont be so intolerant that you wouldnt allow someone to think their dogs are better. What do you do when some little girl walks up with her poodle and says she has the bestest, smartest, most wonderful animal in the world? Belittle her and make her cry? Thats what you have done here...allow people their own opinion.

Give people credit in researching....if people are trying to find animal, most intelligent people will know the difference between a breed owner talking fondly about their breed and the truth.

Leave us in peace and go bug someone else. We'll let you have your opinion, let us have ours.

oh, and as far as reading in that time-period goes, I tend not to....people are that time period where very close minded...hec, women werent allowed in the military, now they are participating in black ops all over the world...wonderful what new ideas can do.

But I will look up his work anyway and see if anything he has to say changes my mind...because I think it is important to look at things from all sides. And if nothing else, I enjoy reading.

[Sophist]

Obviously i'm dealing with someone that has no idea or experience in what they're talking about. Belgians are about half of what a good shepherd is easily, they aren't even close in price. I think its safe to say you've never imported, never bought, never trained any of these dogs. When you do then get back to me. If his GSD's are that bad, he needs to find some new suppliers. It's a rare rare day when a white passes the testing to become a PSD, and its even more rare for Mal's and such to be more expensive than a good GSD. SOunds like he needs to find some new people to work with.

Its obvious i'm stepping on your friend's toes, so if you don't want to believe what i'm saying, go to some real working sites and ask them. Come back and tell me what they say, or just keep it to yourself, it doens't really matter.

At what point did I say that I myself bought/imported and trained police and drug enforcement dogs? I never did. So please attack me on points I actually make, and don't make up new ones just because they are easier.
My dad doesn't have regular 'suppliers' for German Shepherds (what an ugly word to refer to breeding and starting out puppies). You are changing your dspecifics from post to post (GSD became 'good' GSD, with no definition provided) just to provide yourself a back door to escape out of, and to make it easier to twist words. My father has imported exactly once, and once the GSD was well into training they discovered that it would NOT call off. Hardly conclusive evidence against imported GSD, but it spooked the Sheriff enough that, as I believe I made pretty clear, my dad was stuck trying to find dogs in America, or more specifically the United States. And we have, for the most part, not been good to our GSDs at all.

As for my 'friends toes', I'm not sure who you are referring to? My father, or someone on this board? On second thought, never mind... I won't defend against an attack so out of left field.

[Sophist]

Ok, when someone says they check some ads online and tell me mals and tervs are more expensive than GSD's Its pretty obvious they have never imported, never trained, nor bought or sold and PSD's. You really think i was going out on a limb with that one?? if you do than i'm sorry i offended you, but i just call it like I see it.

Again, I never in any way asserted or implied that I myself imported, trained, bought or sold k-9 units, so try not to pat yourself on the back too much for that little bit of deductive reasoning.

And please keep in mind that I did readily admit that my price info came from online ads, breeders pages, and newspapers. As I said before, I have never claimed to be in the habit of buying and selling these dogs, so it isn't like I've been making industry connections for years and compiling folders on dogs available from overseas just because I have that time on my hands. The money doesn't come out of my pocket, so I don't know the exact amounts. But, from the evidence I could find, B. Mals and B. Tervurens were more expensive than American GSDs, which I tried to make it clear from the beginning was what I was comparing to. That is why I expressed surprise over your price assertion and asked for more info.
I never tried to come across as a K-9 unit expert, in fact I made it quite clear that it was my father who does that work (and happened to discuss white shepherds with me, so when I saw a white shepherd thread I thought I had an amusing tidbit to add) and the extent of my experience in purchasing/owning/training GSDs was a mix from the pound who I have owned for about one week. So, once again, please don't try to overstate my claims, even if it does make it easier and more enjoyable to attack me.

[borzoimom]

Femka was brought here from the Netherlands for 5 grand. ( spayed female), One of my male shepherds from Germany was 3 grand and it took a month quarrentine, and he never really recovered from it.. I paid 2 grand for my first and second belgium but only 1200 for a female shepherd from New Skeet... Price is set by the seller and the willingness to pay from the buyer. Borzois are reallllly expensive.

[wolfsoul]

I'm still very confused as to why the American white shepherd needs to be compared to the German shepherd. The American white shepherd does not need to prove itself in schutzhund -- that is not it's purpose. From what I understand, the general purpose of the breed is as a service dog, which requires a much calmer and less driven dog -- not a dog that would excell at French ring. You might as well compare it to any other breed.

I disagree that breeding for one colour causes so many issues. There was never a limited gene pool -- between the 1940's and 60's, 90% of GSDs carried the recessive white gene. It's like saying that my dogs are going to be unhealthy and unable to work because I'm breeding specifically for black dogs. There are ALOT more coloured dogs out there, yet I'm breeding for black. No issues here!

[Ceph]

mmm, so now that this has all seemed to calm down some, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for breeders? I am from MD, and somewhere within about 10 hours of here would be good...I am looking mostly for intelligence, high drive and a good, sweet temperment (and a female). An ideas?

[borzoimom]

mmm, so now that this has all seemed to calm down some, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for breeders? I am from MD, and somewhere within about 10 hours of here would be good...I am looking mostly for intelligence, high drive and a good, sweet temperment (and a female). An ideas?

Maryland??? Yes I am about up to 2 hours from you. Pm me what you are looking for, and I will reply for you.

[NicoleLJ]

mmm, so now that this has all seemed to calm down some, I was wondering if anyone had suggestions for breeders? I am from MD, and somewhere within about 10 hours of here would be good...I am looking mostly for intelligence, high drive and a good, sweet temperment (and a female). An ideas?

I sent you a pm. I know more breeders then I can count. Hopefully we can find one close to you that will be having a litter.
Nicole

[Ceph]

I have a slight question that I am not sure anyone can answer, but I thought I would ask anyway, just for the hec of it.


I have been reading the swiss website on the Berger Blanc Suisse and looking at alot of their dogs (they're very swiss about it....these dogs are the most strictly maintained dogs on the face of the planet....everything is tested scientifically...its wild...neat though).

I have sort of started to notice that the white shepherds bred in america tend to have the lower hindquarters of a German Shepherd, but the Swiss dogs tend to be higher in the hind quarters? does anyone know the reasons for this? They're of similiar background....but the confirmational difference seems odd to me....I was wondering if it was something that was bred in or trained in....I dont really know. Thanks!

[NicoleLJ]

It all comes down to teh breeding. WS breeders are trying to breed for mroe of the old style with little to no angulation in the back. When Sheena stands naturally she has a very straight back. But when I stack her, depending on how far I move the leg back, her back comes down into the angulation. So it is not only breeding but also how they could be stacked or standing. Even stacked Sheena does not have the sever angulation of the GSD. Your best bet to understand the structure of WS and Berger's is to read their standards for structure.

I hope this answers your question.
Nicole

[borzoimom]

I was wondering the same thing- its the stack she is seeing in the pictures. We stack different... I can make a Borzoi look more short backed, by holding up the head which rocks the rise back more flat than how they are shown. As long as the rise starts past the last rib at the top of the back, they are not wheel backed. Its where it starts- not how high the rise is ...

[wolfsoul]

I can make a Borzoi look more short backed, by holding up the head which rocks the rise back more flat than how they are shown. ..

Wish I could do that...Visa is a little long in the body, would be nice to somehow make her appear more square. But the only time she looks square is when she doesn't have any coat 9no huge pants and mane to lengthen her), in which case she looks bald which is even worse lol.

[borzoimom]

Well they do allow more length in the bitches in your breed as you know, -and its still putting your hands on the dog. Also in our breed, the length doesnt really matter... lol.. Given the choice between a little longer back bitch and another with a sloppy front, I would put up the one a little longer in the back with the clear front and rear.

[SemaviLady]

The falsehoods about the White Shepherds and the gene that causes their coat color are many. First White Shepherds are NOT albinos. Albinos have no pigment and usually pink eyes. The White Shepherds have brown eyes and black pigment on their noses, mouth, paw pads, eye rims,sometimes a black dusting in their ears and sometimes have darker skin and nails.

Color paling was another rumor that has since been proven false. The white gene is a masking gene, not a dilute gene (such as liver and blue). A masking gene hides the real color and pattern of the dog. A White Shepherd can be any color found in the German Shepherd Dog like black, black and tan, black and red, black and silver, black and cream, blue, liver, sable, saddled and bi-colored. The only time dilution could occur is when a White Shepherd is masking a diluted color like blue or liver. The white gene is a recessive gene. The only thing the gene expresses is coat color. It does not cause poor health, temperament or any other.

I wanted to point out that as of this date, there has not been a 'White' gene associated with dogs. It has been found in other species of animals, but not in dogs.

In all mammalian coat color genetics, there are only two types of pigment. One is Eumelanin (which codes for "true" black or near black) and phaeomelanin (which codes for biscuit, to red, an brown/tan colors). True "white" is the absence of pigment granules in the hair.

In dogs, "white" color in several sable/agouti breeds (in the A series) is caused, in part, by a recessive form of the extension gene (E series). Only dogs carrying at least one dominant allele for E can have black in their coat. So the double e (e/e) derails the formation of black pigment (eumelanin) in the hair at the melanocortin-1-receptor. This affects the formation of black pigment in the *hair* only -- e/e dogs will always have pale colored whiskers, they cannot have black hair at all.

Colloquially, the e/e combination is sometimes called "recessive red", this is because a fully pigmented dog can only have two types of pigment, black or red. That colloquial name can confuse the matter because the gene involved with e/e regards black pigment. So if the dog is not black, it can only be red if it is fully pigmented.

So what if you or an animal you have is e/e? Having lighter color recessives which permit expression for blonde or red hair, just means you do not have the genetics to form the blackest form of pigment in your hair strands. Has nothing to do with albinism or your dog being genetically disfigured.

Albinism: True albinism alleles are associated with the "C" series (on Tyrosinase gene), which controls Color ("to be or not to be"). The C series as it affects phaeomelinin (and eumelanin to some degree) in other animals, has not been shown to exist as originally expected in dogs. For example the 'chinchilla' allele c^ch which Dr Clarence Little had theorized. Tyrosinase (the gene controlling expression of these traits) may or may not still be implicated but it just hasn't been resolved in dogs to date. GSDs and other white sable breeds would be capital "C" in this series because they ARE fully pigmented dogs. They just have a protein that merely affects the pigment granules in their hair.

Another gene associated with white, is the Merle gene - and this one IS directly implicated in birth defects. This gene is not found in purebred GSDs (nor ASDs).

Pinto alleles do not concern purebred GSD so we won't get into that here. Although an interesting mutation has occured in the GSD - "Panda Shepherds" which have been DNA'd and are truly a mutation.

To date, it is not known what turns off the phaeomelinin (biscuit, red to brown) in e/e breeds that are "white" instead of red. But e/e has certainly been implicated as part of the factors that produce "white" sable breeds.

Typical e/e breeds are Golden Retrievers and yellow Labradors. You never see solid red (or yellow) GSDs or Anatolians - if they are reddish, they will also have black hair and that means that they are not "recessive red" (also called 'clear red'). This is because another unidentified gene also at least partially derails the complete formation of the second pigment, phaeomelanin. Sometimes these "white" breeds, like the e/e breeds will have a little more biscuit color to the edges of their ears. Phaeomelanin is temperature sensitive and cooler areas of the body will sometimes appear darker.

Scientists involved with the genome studies regularly report their new findings. Sometimes it is a little bit hard to follow if one doesn't have the background or sheer determination<g>.

A very useful site to read about pigment studies in dogs is here: http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

Having said all that, people create breed standards based on an 'artist's conception' of conformation to manmade ideals of perfection.

My thoughts on this is that since the agouti/sable colored breeds as I know them, have banded hairs. See pic:

When the dog gets a double dose of e/e, it affects the production of the banded pattern - because both eumelanin and phaeomelanin alternate in agouti hairs normally. Since the black pigment doesn't ever turn on, it somehow results in hijacking of the production of the pigmented coat pattern, thus giving us the "white" (or cream white) colored hair. This is just my own conjecture, because in these sable breeds, if there is an additional allele that is involved, that only turns off red or dilutes red, that would mean that this stray gene would sometimes occur in it's recessive or dominant state separate from the state of the allele in the E series. That might mean we could see white GSDs with black masks if this separate gene worked in a typical autosomal diploid manner. Since this doesn't happen, I think that something in the banding pattern of the A series gets hijacked when the E series is in a recessive state.

The hair snapshot above is from an Anatolian female (the center dog in my sig). This female has "white" ancestors in her pedigree as do many Turkish dogs.

[NicoleLJ]

SemaviLady - I am totally lost as by what you posted. The white Gene in GSD's is a masking gene not an albino gene. Which means that the White GSD can be any color that is in the GSD but that it is masking that color. So Sheena(my white) could be a bl&tn or a rd&tn or a full black but the white gene is masking her color so she is white. If she was bred to a colored GSD we would have no idea what colors she would throw in the pups because we don't know what color she is masking.

We do know when a wh is bred to a wh then they only throw white pups
when a white is bred to a colored that has the wh gene then they throw white and colored pups
when a white is bred to a colored without the white gene then they throw all colored pups. So the gene has to be in both the parents for the masking affect to take place.

And yes white coated dogs can have black or other colored fur come out int eh coat. In 3 years Sheena has had about 20 hairs that have been black appear on her neck and shoulders. Always one at a time but they do show up. And yes they are attached so I know they are not from our black Luca.

Agian I read what you posted but didn't understand half of what you wrote. I just posted what I know and what has been studied. if you want to learn more about the genetics of hte WS I suggest you go here: The White Shepherds Genetics Project. http://www.wsgenetics.org/

I am a contributing member to this project and the things they are learning and doing to better the WS is amazing.
Nicole