This Is The Attitude I Face......

**jackiesdaisy1935** · 06-21-2003, 09:30 PM

KayAnn, I'm really sorry, but the rules have been put in to protect young people under 18, although we know young people love their dogs as much as any older person, as I said there are some types of material that are not suitable for young people some of the times, and it's not like PetTalk, where everything is suitable for any age. I understand what you are talking about, but the msn groups are quite open and we felt it would protect people like you. There are times when we have had to ban people because of posts not being suitable even for adults. I hope you understand.
Jackie

**iceyshiver21** · 06-21-2003, 10:26 PM

To me each dog is his own. Someone says so and so has a pitbull and Im just like "Huh? your point?" unless the owner clearly has bad ownership with any dog in the past. I've never met a full pitty or even half. But I have met alot of other bad name breeds and am a proud owner of a wonderful Rotty. People look at her and give me some pretty interesting looks, but they mostly turn to smiles when they see how wonderful Dutchess is with my little two year old sister Carlee. I mean a 2 year old with a rotty really gives some people some thinkin to do.

**Kfamr** · 06-21-2003, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by jackiesdaisy1935
KayAnn, I'm really sorry, but the rules have been put in to protect young people under 18, although we know young people love their dogs as much as any older person, as I said there are some types of material that are not suitable for young people some of the times, and it's not like PetTalk, where everything is suitable for any age. I understand what you are talking about, but the msn groups are quite open and we felt it would protect people like you. There are times when we have had to ban people because of posts not being suitable even for adults. I hope you understand.
Jackie

**aly** · 06-22-2003, 11:43 PM

Katt and Kay -

There's a pit at my work who I want to take home SO BAD! Someone must've done a home cropping job on his ears because they look so bad

He was locked in a crate for 3 days with no food and water before he was saved and brought to my shelter by a coworker. He's the biggest MUSHBALL! He puts his head in my arms and just goes to sleep. Awww. I just wanted to show you guys his pic:

**Cheshirekatt** · 06-22-2003, 11:48 PM

Aly,
Ooooooh! He's adorable! I love his freckles.

**mugsy** · 06-23-2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by RICHARD
forget the dogs, euthanize the IRRESPONSIBLE owners....

My sentiments exactly!

**Kfamr** · 06-23-2003, 11:04 AM

Awww Aly!! He looks soooo sweet! I wanna hug his big blocky head and kiss all the little spots on his nose!!

**jackiesdaisy1935** · 06-23-2003, 08:35 PM

Another example of irresponsible pet ownership, but the little girl is not here to complain. This is in the Los Angeles area.
Jackie

Neighbors say pit bull was known to be violent

Dog killed 2-year-old girl playing in yard
ASSOCIATED PRESS

June 23, 2003

LAKE ELSINORE – The pit bull that killed a 2-year-old girl at the home of her baby sitters had attacked other children in the neighborhood, residents said.

"That dog bit one of my nephews three weeks ago," said Salvador Mojica, 45, Saturday. She said the wound was not serious.

"We talked to them and they told us just to throw rocks at the dog if he came near again," Mojica said. "My brother asked me to see if the dog had rabies shots, and they said yes. That's why I didn't make a complaint."

Summer Clugston and her 1-year-old brother were left Friday at the home of a couple in the unincorporated Good Hope area while their parents worked. Summer was playing in the front yard when the dog attacked, Riverside County sheriff's Deputy Dennis Gutierrez said. She died a short time later at a nearby hospital.

The identity of the couple and Summer's parents were not immediately released.

Mojica said she called Animal Control three times last year about loose dogs in the neighborhood, but no one responded.

Riverside County Animal Control officials could not be reached for comment and did not return a telephone message.

Yami Chavez, 35, who lives across the road from the home where the attack happened, said she often had to chase dogs off her property, including the pit bull involved in the fatal mauling.

The dog that attacked Summer was destroyed after the attack, officials said Friday.

Officials are investigating the incident. No charges have been filed.

**iceyshiver21** · 06-23-2003, 08:44 PM

Sad...But hey lets make it worse by throwing rocks at it and just make it meaner!! Where the heck where its owners? Was it stray? Wow...the world sucks.

**Cheshirekatt** · 06-23-2003, 08:53 PM

I'm not sure you could call this an example of "irresponsible ownership". It really sounds like these were stray/nuisance dogs. Although I couldn't really tell from the article. Perhaps the irresponsibility is in dumping the dogs.

And it also sounds like the animal control office dropped the ball. I do know the lab that mauled my dog was a stray that was running with a pack of other stray dogs. This seems to encourage aggressive behavior.

The poor little girl......

I wonder if she was being supervised while she was in the yard? Did anyone report the bite the other little boy had gotten earlier? Maybe if someone had this little girl would still be with us.

**Cheshirekatt** · 06-23-2003, 09:07 PM

I think it's only fair that we put something positive in this thread, also. These very pit bulls helped search ground zero after 9-11. I know I'd be glad to see their furry faces if I was lost or trapped some where.

Even she faces the hysteria and misconceptions.......

Alameda County Woman Trains Pit Bulls for Search and Rescue--Worth the TROUBLE
Jon Mays

People have thrown rocks and yelled at her. They?ve even tried to poison her dogs. She even ended up renting a small trailer on a Castro Valley ranch without heat or running water because she couldn?t find another place that would allow pit bulls.

And despite the trouble, Kristine Crawford will load her pit bull search-and-rescue dogs into her 4X4 truck at any hour, no matter how far away, to help find a missing person. Crawford owns three pit bulls. One is trained in specialized search-and-rescue techniques such as cadaver and area search and the other two are finishing up their training in area as well as trailing a specific scent. They are also trained to navigate boulders, rugged and steep terrain in the forest and rubble in the city, Crawford said.

Crawford is a member of the California Search and Rescue Dog Association, a volunteer group of SAR Dog handlers who are on call to help find missing persons anywhere in the state. She is also an Operations Lieutenant for the Alameda County Sheriff Search and Rescue Unit.

Last month, Crawford was called to Pacifica, here in San Mateo County, to help find a missing 85-year-old man with Alzheimer?s disease. At 2 a.m., Crawford and her teammates had been searching for an hour when another dog team found the man 600 feet down a ravine entangled in some brush. Crawford assisted with the extrication of the man because he would not have survived the night as it was very cold out.

However, the negative stigma attached to pit bulls causes Crawford to have her share of unpleasant moments as well. Once, Crawford was helping a search-and-rescue effort in the Sierra Nevadas when, after driving several hours to get there a sheriff?s deputy pulled a gun on Dakota, her primary search-and-rescue dog. ?He said, ?That?s a vicious dog. You need to put him back in the truck.? Then a deputy from another county who had worked with me told him to holster his weapon and thank his lucky stars we were here to help because Dakota is one damn good search dog,? she said.

In fact, Crawford said the typical characteristics of a pit bull make them great search-and-rescue dogs. Pit bulls are courageous, intelligent, agile, social and extremely focused. ?Whatever they do, they do to the best of their ability,? she said.

Scott Delucchi, spokesperson for the Peninsula Humane Society, said pit bulls are definitely a working dog and they can also be aggressive with other dogs. However, he said with the increased media attention, there?s a misconception that dog bites are on the rise.

Delucchi also said much of pit bulls? reputation depends on their owners. ?Different types of people want to have pit bulls,? Delucchi said. ?Sometimes they have a macho mentality and they want to have an aggressive dog,?

Crawford, a 40-year-old woman who moved to the Bay Area from Minnesota 10 years ago, may be tough, but she?s anything but macho. Crawford wants to have pit bulls because they help her save lives.

Crawford has been training pit bulls professionally for sixteen years, and pit bull SAR dogs for 6 years, ever since she saved Cheyenne from being euthanized. Crawford adopted Cheyenne because she was going to be euthanized, not because of her behaviour or temperment, but simply because of the type of breed she was. Crawford was battling a severe illness at the time and Cheyenne, now 6 years old, was instrumental in Crawford's recovery.

Crawford adopted now 5-year-old Dakota when she was 6 weeks old and was rescued from a dog-fighting ring. Since then, Dakota has become the star of her crew. Her third dog is Tahoe, a 14-month-old who is the youngest dog in the group.

Even though the dogs usually sport their ?search dog? vests in public, Crawford said people have gotten so angry at her for having the breed that while walking her dogs (on leash, of course) they have thrown rocks at her and screamed that she is a disgrace to society for owning that breed. Once, she discovered that someone had sprinkled rat poison in her car after placing a nasty note about pit bulls on her car. Another time, she was training with Dakota on a golf course that was closed when a trespassing golfer hit the dog over the head with a golf club. ?He said, ?All I saw was a pit bull coming at me,? ? she said. She was even wearing her big bright orange search dog vest.

Crawford is committed to breaking the stigma attached to the breed and often brings all three dogs to schools, hospitals and nursing homes. "The visits to schools are extremely important, Crawford said, because with our Safety Around Dogs program we are teaching children how to behave around dogs and what to do in the event of an attack." Most importantly, she said children should not run because that may provoke the predatory instinct. If attacked, Crawford said it?s critical to remain still and cover the neck and head.

Crawford said it's hard but rewarding when visiting nursing homes. There are some that go days and sometimes weeks without visitors. To the lonely, Crawford said, her dogs make a difference despite the breed's bad reputation.

?They may not say a word, but you see their eyes light up and a hint of a smile, and you know you've made a difference,? she said.

©2000 Berkeley Daily Planet/San Mateo Daily Journal

_

**aly** · 06-23-2003, 09:19 PM

I saw that story about the most recent Pit attack in the news. Supposedly there were several children playing outside and they all went in except the little girl. It was then that the dog got her. A neighbor said there are several dogs who just roam around there, and the Pit was one of them.

I'm pretty sick of hearing these Pit stories. What makes me even sicker is the stupid people they interview who say Pits are evil, etc etc.

Thanks for the positive Pit stories that are WAY too often ignored, Kat

**Cheshirekatt** · 06-23-2003, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by aly

Thanks for the positive Pit stories that are WAY too often ignored, Kat

It's unfortunate, but the postive stories don't sell papers..........

**Cheshirekatt** · 06-23-2003, 10:00 PM

I thought this was a very well written article. I hope owners of certain breeds aren't offended by anything said in the article. I believe the author was just using them as examples.....

Dog Bite Statistics: Bad Logic

By Katharine Dokken

The Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and many local jurisdictions issue yearly dog bite statistics that affect pet owners everywhere in ways they seldom think of until its too late. What are some of those effects? How about sudden cancellation of your home owner?s insurance policy or denial of a new one, or an outright ban on the ownership of your dog? If you own your own home and one day your city decides to ban ownership of your dog, what do you do?

Dog breeds the CDC considers the highest risk? Pit bulls, Rottweilers, German shepherds, Huskies, Alaskan Malamutes, Doberman pinschers, Chow Chows, Great Danes, St. Bernards and Akitas. But are these the breeds that actually are the highest risk? And "Huskies" is a class of dogs, not a breed. What kind of "Huskies" are they even talking about? The generic term of Husky refers to Siberian Huskies, Alaskan Malamutes, Samoyeds, and other Northern type breeds which may or may not even be purebred. Are they talking about Siberian Huskies? If so, then why don't they specify that?

Many homeowners insurance companies and local law enforcement jurisdictions use these statistics to decide what dog breeds they will discriminate against or out right ban. While statistics on dog bites are nice, they actually tell us almost nothing about the issue, and are the basis of many pieces of flawed dog ownership restrictions or outright banning legislation.

In the first place, the dog breed identifications in the reports are dubious at best. Entire categories of bites are frequently not included in the statistics, such as the so-called provoked bites, which may or may not be such. In addition many dog bites are never reported, especially if they do not require medical treatment.

To use statistics alone in determining who an insurance company will sell to and who they won?t ignores the basic issues of personal responsibility and just how many of those so-called statistical bites were caused by the human involved and not the dog, besides being downright racist. If insurance companies refused to provide homeowners insurance to all black people there would be a national outcry. Yet many companies today refuse to sell insurance to someone who owns a dog, regardless of the dog?s history and temperament.

Many jurisdictions force the dog bite reporter to list the dog by breed, but many of these dogs are not purebreds. They are mixed breeds, frequently of unknown parentage. Some jurisdictions will accept a listing of mixed breed but many will not. Is the dog that just bit someone a multiple-breed-Chow mix? Guess what, it will probably be listed as a Chow Chow bite. Own a Hound/Bull dog mix? Chances are good it will be listed as a Pit Bull. A mixed breed dog is just that.

For the average person, they can accurately identify less than 30 dog breeds on sight, let alone in a stressful and intense situation like a dog bite. The bite will get reported as whatever breed the people involved think it most closely resembles. Even law enforcement officers, animal shelter workers, and some veterinarians cannot accurately identify many breeds. I can remember just a few months ago taking one of my dogs into the regular vet clinic we always go to. We saw one of the veterinarians on staff that we hadn't seen before. He made the comment that he hadn't realized that my dog breed was as big as it is because he had never seen one in person before. He had only seen pictures in books, yet the breed of dog I own is fairly common in both my area and nationally, and the dog in question was actually very small for the breed.

For the average person anything with prick ears and blue eyes automatically becomes a "husky," yet many breeds can have blue eyes, and many more have prick ears. Any smooth coated brown dog, medium sized, and muscular becomes a "pit bull" yet upon examination many have been found to be purebred Boxers. Any tall dog becomes a Great Dane, fuzzy or hairy and it?s a Chow Chow. If it?s black and tan and heavy it?s a Rottweiler, etc. See the problem with this? The average person cannot tell the difference between an Alaskan Malamute, a Siberian Husky, and an Akita.

Fatal attacks since 1975 have been attributed to over 30 different dog breeds yet all the media can talk about are Pit bulls, Rottweilers, Dobermans, or Akitas. Size alone is not an accurate indicator of which dogs are capable of killing and which dogs are not. In October of 2000, a baby was killed by a four pound family Pomeranian dog in California. In February of 2002, a Jack Russell Terrier mauled a 6 week old baby in Tennessee.

For an entire category of bites, there is no reporting at all. This is for so called provoked bites. Bites that occur at veterinarian offices, dog groomers, and boarding kennels in many counties are automatically declared to be provoked bites. Those that know dog bite statistics from the inside out are those that work with animals for a living. I recently polled a number of animal shelter workers and this is what they said about dog bites. Most of the bites have been by small unfriendly Terrier type dogs and Cocker Spaniels. Occasionally they have seen a larger dog on a bite case but the vast majority of the bites were from small to medium sized dogs.

The dog groomers I spoke to said most of the bites they see are from Schnauzers, Cocker Spaniels, Westies, Scotties, and Dachshunds.

Next I polled a number of veterinarians. One veterinarian said to me, "Give me a so-called vicious Pit Bull over a Cocker Spaniel, Dachshund, or even a Lab any day!! These are the breeds I have the most problem with." Another vet concurred saying that in years of working at a veterinarian clinic she never once encountered a single vicious Pit bull yet had problems all the time with Cocker Spaniels and Yorkshire Terriers.

Speaking of provoking, an entire category of bites that are reported and shouldn?t be are the truly provoked bites. The bites in which the person involved was clearly at fault and not the dog. The bites that occurred for instance when the person who was bitten was somewhere they should not have been in the first place. For example, recently in Maryland a 13-year-old boy was bitten after he was caught leaning over the fence into a person?s yard, teasing the Pit bull contained there. Prior to the bite incident, this boy was warned 3 times to leave the dog alone. The dog owner was having so many problems with people teasing and provoking her dogs that she contacted Animal Control for assistance. Under advisement from the authorities, she ringed her backyard fence with evenly spaced ?Beware of Dog? and ?No Trespassing? signs. Yet these signs and 3 verbal warnings from an adult witness were still not enough to keep this boy out of the dog owner?s yard. The dog owner has now lost her dog to the authorities and another bite statistic has been entered. Yet, was it this dog?s fault? No! This dog, Pit bull or otherwise, was simply defending itself and its territory from an intruder.

Just days later an Akita bit a 16 year old girl in the face in Rhode Island and again, the dog was confined in its owners backyard and the teenager was trespassing on private property. These stories are not even anomalies, but frequent occurrences. In this day and age of zero personal responsibility, the dog owner is now always deemed to be at fault regardless of the circumstances.

Hand in hand with this is the general failure of parents today to teach their children even the most basic rules of canine safety and good manners. Parents encourage their children to approach and touch strange dogs without a single thought of the consequences, or even bothering to ask permission of the dog owner involved. They allow children to put their hands through fences to grab at animals contained inside. This is the epitome of irresponsibility. Fences are there for a reason and that reason is to keep people, animals or things, in; and others out. No animal should have to put up with strangers of any size, grabbing, groping, pulling their tails and ears, and hitting or poking them, yet this goes on and people expect that the animal will be some sort of saint in fur in return. This is a completely unrealistic viewpoint. A parent would be outraged and probably screaming for the police if a stranger approached and started groping their child, yet they think nothing of doing the same thing to a strange animal.

To go by statistics alone assumes that the majority of dog bites are reported and that the majority of breeds identified are correct. As a long time dog fancier, I have a serious problem with either assumption. Too bad many insurance companies are now refusing to provide home owners insurance to owners of certain breeds and many communities are banning ownership of dogs, based on statistics that are dubious at best.

Katharine Dokken