Smartest Breed?

**GoldenRetrLuver** · 05-06-2005, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
When people do those "smartest breed" tests, they aren't judging a dog on it's intelligence. They are judging it on it's obedience.

It is not fair to judge a breed's intelligence on it's obedience. They say border collies are smartest and afghans are dumbest, based on obedience-related activities. Well it's completely unfair to take a border collie and compare it to an afghan. A border collie is bred to work alongside man -- it's bred to take commands, and to be eager to please. A border collie is bred to be obedient. Most herding dogs are this way. Afghans are bred to RUN AWAY from the owner. An owner can not tell the dog where the prey is -- the afghan needs to find it for himself, and therefore he relies on himself alot more and alot less on the owner's pleasure and the owner's needs. Sighthounds are this way. You just can't compare them -- they are bred to think and act in completely different ways.

That being said, I DO believe that some breeds are just more intelligent than others, and I'm not just talking about obedience...There are just some that seem to pick up on things or understand things better than others -- in my own experience. I'm not sure what it is alot of the time. I've seen two different breeds do the exact same thing, and deep down I always know which one I think is smarter. I disagree that comparing breed intelligence is like comparing human races, because human races were not bred to do specific things, and that type of instinct in people is not held strong anyways.

I agree 100%! Couldn't have said it better.

**ZiNg** · 05-06-2005, 10:04 PM

i dont understand why people are fussing about wicth dog is smarter and the likes. It does not matter how smart or how dumb the dog is. I would love a dumb dog the same as the smart dog.Its not the dogs fault. All dogs are wonderful and sould not be judged by there smartness. If you thank about it, the trainer has alot to do with the dogs smartness.

I Love Mutts!

**Karen** · 05-06-2005, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Kfamr
I think anyone would say that their breed of dog is the "smartest" - when I comes down to it, personally I think it depends on training. You can teach a kid to add and subtract, and you can teach them to multiply and divide as well... You can train a dog to sit and stay, and you can teach them to pick a specific toy out of the bunch, ect. I've seen these tricks done from a small Schnauzer all the way to my Mutts.

ALL dogs are smart if they're given the chance to be.

This is not quite true. It may not be breed specific, but some dogs just ARE smarter than others. Gracie, our beloved mostly Great Dane, was a sweetheart. She was funny, adorable, clumsy, and just not terribly bright. She never understood fetch, never even understood that if she opened her mouth, she could *catch* food thrown toward her. It would just bounce off her nose, then she eat it off the floor - if she noticed. She was housebroken of course, and walked nicely on a leash, and knew "sit." That was it. Even when she was an old girl (she lived to 14 1/2) when I would go to visit my parents, she'd get so excited to see me that she'd wag the whole dog, and half the time hit herself in the nose with her own tail, then look around to see who hit her! Poor girl, she just didn't understand. Silly, sweet, and much loved. Intelligent? Um, no.

Great Danes often rate low on the intelligence scale when scientists do those tests, funny enough.

**wolfsoul** · 05-06-2005, 10:26 PM

Karen, that reminds me of Baby.

She's pretty dense, but she's the funniest thing on four legs.

I feel that trainability has nothing to do with intelligence. While you can teach a dog many tricks, it doesn't make it smart. Timber knows tons of tricks, but she's terribly unintelligent --- she's just eager to please! Personally, I feel that the more stubborn and independant breeds are more intelligent than some of the ones that are eager to please (many exceptions of course). I remember on another forum, someone saying that their Sibe was very stupid -- always jumping the fence, running away, and never listening to commands. I find Sibes to be incredibly intelligent -- they are just more difficult to train.

**cali** · 05-06-2005, 10:59 PM

lol I agree, Misty knows way more complicated tricks then Happy does, but she is my dumbest female lol she knows complicated tricks because she is VERY eager to please, she cant fger something out on her own, like the type of clicker training where you do not ask anything you dog is just supposed to figer out from the rewards what they are supposed to do, Misty does not undertstand, if I ask her to do something she will but forget about her trying to figer something out for herself, she just sits there and stares at me, she does not try anything, just sits there and stares and if she gets nothing she will sit beside me and try to stick her nose in the bag, but she just does not understand unless I show her. take today, I asked all the dog to "stand" something that they ALL know how to do, Happy was the first to figer out that I wanted her to stand and she would get treats, then Blair figered it out, then Perky, and Misty never did figer it out lol Happy kept trying things till she got it right, Blair watch Happy, he saw that she got the treat for standing, so he stood and got a treat, then Perky noticed and stood and got her treat and Misty just sat there staring at me the whole time. before I was born my mom had a big mutt, she said this had to be the stupidest dog on the planet, he would get lost in the driveway... lol there is a HUGE differnce between trainability and intellegence. Happy does not know too many complicated tricks, nope if I ask her to do something that I can obviously do myself she gives me this look that says "give me a break, do it youself!" if she cant get something off herself on her own she askes me to get it off for her, Misty just goes nuts trying to get it off herself, they are both very obedient, but Happy is by far way smarter then Misty.

**Kfamr** · 05-07-2005, 08:28 AM

If you guys say so.

I still stand by my opinion that all dogs ARE smart if they are given the chance to be.

Heck, they're smarter than us. Who picks up who's poop? Who gives who a bath? Who feeds who? Who walks who?

**wolfsoul** · 05-07-2005, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Kfamr

I still stand by my opinion that all dogs ARE smart if they are given the chance to be.

What is it you are basing intelligence on?

I can't give Timber a "chance" to be smart, as she was born the way she was. She knows atleast 10 or 15 tricks. Does that make her smart in your book?

**lbaker** · 05-07-2005, 11:46 AM

I don't think anything of the kind, and let's not get to bickering. We love our dogs.. Some we have a heart gathering towards. All we love. Smart, dumber than a box of rocks.. who cares? They are all our own and we love them.

**Kfamr** · 05-07-2005, 11:47 AM

If she's able to comprehend and understand the commands you've given her, yes, she's smart.

I'll admit some dogs are just DUMB, but their breed has nothing to do with that.

If you wish to argue, choose someone else, because I don't want to. (I'm not saying you do, i'm just saying if that is your intention, or anyone elses for that matter.)

**wolfsoul** · 05-07-2005, 12:21 PM

I didn't realise that so many people based intelligence on trainability and/or trick-trainability. I find it interesting how people's opinions differ on the matter. They say that wolves are many times smarter than dogs but incredibly difficult to train or trick-train. I guess that could possibly be because wolves are not generaly a domesticated animal whereas dogs are. Personally I think they should make more of these "intelligence tests" on how well the dog figures things out on it's own, without human aid or guidance, rather than obedience. It would make for a much more interesting study. I do remember one study they did something like this (the dog had to do something with blocks in order to get treats from a machine), and the border collie did come in first, though I don't think that had to do with the dog's trainability, nor eagerness to please -- though I do find it sad that the afghan really DID come in last.

I do have an interesting article kicking around about an afghan breeder that shows her dogs in obedience and they actually do very well. She was tired of people thinking they are dumb. I'll see if I can find that, it's an interesting read.

**Ginger's Mom** · 05-07-2005, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
Personally I think they should make more of these "intelligence tests" on how well the dog figures things out on it's own, without human aid or guidance, rather than obedience. It would make for a much more interesting study. [/B]

I read an article about seven or eight years ago that said that that is exactly what they use in these intelligence tests. The tests aren't exactly intelligence test, but more like adaptability tests. They are looking to see how well a dog will use something it has learned in the past and apply it/adapt it to a totally new situation. It has nothing to do with how well they learn to sit up or roll over, but how they respond when given a new situation to react to (controlled by the examiners I would assume). Of course herding and working breeds would do much better in these kinds of tests because their "jobs" require them to react to new and different situations quickly.

It doesn't matter all dogs have their own wonderful way of dealing with life situations, most of which cause us to smile every day. My RB dog was a mixed breed and she was brilliant, I never had to tell her how to behave. My present dog is also a mixed breed and well...I love her dearly no matter how smart she is

.

**Glacier** · 05-07-2005, 05:29 PM

Karen, your story reminded me of my childhood best friend. I bought Lady, an Irish setter-Yellow Lab cross, for 20 bucks, money I got for my 7th birthday. She was my best friend for the next 14 years. She was beautiful, sweet, loving and always there. Through my teenage years, that dog heard every story I couldn't tell my parents, her fur soaked up many tears. I still keep her picture in my office. She was a wonderful dog, but she was as dumb as they come. She could never figure out that it was her tail wacking her! She never learned that porcupines were not her friend or that skunks were not cats. I miss that silly mutt!

Huskies generally score low on the intelligence tests because they are extremely difficult to train and have no desire to please their owner. However, I don't believe trainablity and intelligence are related. Muskwa actually problem solves. If he can't get to something he wants, he'll find a way. He even uses sticks and other objects as tools. I think that takes way more intelligence than learning to come on command--something Muskwa, as most huskies, does only when he feels like it!

Pingo unfailingly knows the way home--no matter what trail we are on or how lost I am. She knows. She is amazing at recognizing bad ice. If Pingo balks at crossing ice, we go another way. She knows. That to me is way smarter and more valuable than the fact that she knows "gee" & 'haw". Knowing how to get home and what lake not to cross could save my life some day.

We used to think Earle was really dumb, but now I think he's actually a genius. He just pretends to be dumb because it's easier. No one expects anything of Earle, none of the other dogs fight with him or challenge him, he goes along with whatever happens. He gets lots of extras because he is so easy to get along with--he goes to town, goes to work with my husband, does demos and presentations. He's not dumb at all. He knows the path of least resistance is easier.

**sammy101** · 05-07-2005, 11:45 PM

all dogs are smart and intelligent in there own way.EVERY dog is intelligent, i believe they dont have to be given a chance to be.
Some breeds,well lots of breeds are known to be stubborn,and just dont want to learn new tricks.Kodie is still like that,and he's very difficult to train,but it doesnt mean he's not smart.I've worked on the command 'come' with him for a long time,and he still is very stubborn about it,and just ignores me.He's an extremely smart dog,but he's stubborn about learning.Kodie only knows the basics.I've tried and tried new tricks with him,but he's not interested in that kind of stuff.He's stubborn but he's a very smart dog.

**tikeyas_mom** · 05-08-2005, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by wolfsoul
When people do those "smartest breed" tests, they aren't judging a dog on it's intelligence. They are judging it on it's obedience.

It is not fair to judge a breed's intelligence on it's obedience. They say border collies are smartest and afghans are dumbest, based on obedience-related activities. Well it's completely unfair to take a border collie and compare it to an afghan. A border collie is bred to work alongside man -- it's bred to take commands, and to be eager to please. A border collie is bred to be obedient. Most herding dogs are this way. Afghans are bred to RUN AWAY from the owner. An owner can not tell the dog where the prey is -- the afghan needs to find it for himself, and therefore he relies on himself alot more and alot less on the owner's pleasure and the owner's needs. Sighthounds are this way. You just can't compare them -- they are bred to think and act in completely different ways.

That being said, I DO believe that some breeds are just more intelligent than others, and I'm not just talking about obedience...There are just some that seem to pick up on things or understand things better than others -- in my own experience. I'm not sure what it is alot of the time. I've seen two different breeds do the exact same thing, and deep down I always know which one I think is smarter. I disagree that comparing breed intelligence is like comparing human races, because human races were not bred to do specific things, and that type of instinct in people is not held strong anyways.

I have to agree 100% with you here jordo...