BIG problem with Max, need major help (crosspost)

[stacwase]

I'm crossposting this from Dog General, hoping Carrie or Cali might have some advice (or anybody else - of course)!

Max loves to run more than any dog I've ever heard of. He bowls me right over whenever I go to open the door, and takes off like a bat out of Hell. He'll break screen windows out, just to go out and run. I thought moving to the country would be a good thing - he was one of the biggest reasons I bought this farm. I thought that, when he broke loose, I wouldn't have neighbors to contend with. I thought I could let him run and that would help to get rid of his excess energy.

I have "seen the light," now, and I don't want him running free at all, even in the yard.

Now, he's like a dog on cocaine or something. He's completely unpredictable and the energy has most certainly not decreased. He stays on our property, for the most part, but he'll chase an animal until he catches it.

His prey drive has absolutely skyrocketed, and he will chase anything that moves. He has actually opened my chicken coop (very difficult feat - smart dog). He kills just to kill, not to eat. He just picks the chickens up off their perches by their heads and breaks their necks, then goes on to the next chicken - doesn't even draw blood. He then piles them up.

I do my very best to keep him contained, but about once every 1-2 weeks, now, he bowls somebody over and gets out the door.

I know it's my fault for letting him run when I did. He got a taste of it and thinks it's his right now.

He used to be so sweet and gentle - I trusted him around children and little kittens (supervised). Now I wouldn't let him near a small child, for fear that he'd think the child was prey.

The neighbors (life estate people in trailer on our property) have small grandchildren who come over and jump on their trampoline occasionally. I'm scared to death that Max will get loose again and think those kids are prey.

Max can jump very high fences. A nine-foot fence surrounding my house is absolutely out of the question right now, as I am in the middle of a divorce and basically broke.

Do any of you have any training suggestions? I'm keeping the windows closed so he can't bust out screens, and I've got the kids trained to open the door in such a way as to not let him out, but I'm afraid a visitor will accidentally let him out (we only have visitors about once a month).

[Dixieland Dancer]

What breed of dog are we talking about, what age is he now, what age did you get him, has he had any obedience training in his life and if so how much, is he neutered, what form of exercise does he get under your direction and how much do you give this dog?

All dog breeds were developed with a specific purpose in mind. Understanding these specific purposes can help prevent problems. I am thinking that whatever breed Max is, it is probably one that was bred specifically for a high energy drive. As a dog owner, it is your job to teach the dog proper avenues of releasing those energy drives and to provide avenues in which he can do so. A dog with extremely high levels of pent-up energy can become very difficult to live with as you are finding out.

Because of his high energy level and his "run free" start in life, he ended up finding his own way of releasing energy in the form of hunting animals to kill just for fun. If he wasn't being fed his dog food, he probably would not just kill for fun but would kill for dinner. So now Max finds it enjoyable to chase animals to release his energy and relieve his boredom. It sounds like his high prey drive is now his greatest activity and what he get the most enjoyment out of.

Understand you will probably never break him of this drive now. What you hope to accomplish though is an alternative form of amusement and exercise equal to his desire to chase and kill animals. Success in achieving this is going to be based on you and not the dog! I'm going to repeat that statement again because it is so important fo you to understand. Success in achieving this is going to be based on you and not the dog! It depends on how diligent you are in reshaping his behaviors.

NILIF (Nothing in life is free) is a very valuable reward based program for shaping behaviors in dogs. There is a lot of information on it on the internet so I'm not going to spend a lot of time talking about it. The most important thing to remember though is that absolutely NOTHING is free. Max must work for everything he gets. His treats, his dinner (especially), his outside time, etc. NILIF incorporated into a positive obedience training class is a MUST for the two of you. Find a training club that does retrieving activities such as Hunt Tests or Field work to shape Max's high prey drive in a positive way. Agility or Flyball are other excellent avenues of helping Max relieve energy.

In the short run for home, you need to get him attached to balls or frisbees or something he can chase and bring back to you for a reward! The obedience lesson on recalls can help you in this area. The most important thing to remember though is it is a learning experience. You will need to keep the activity upbeat and fun and rewarding for Max to fall in love with it. This is easier taught to a puppy who doesn't have other behaviors to compare the activity too but YOU CAN DO IT!

I will share some of the things I have done with my Dusty in the past to help him with his very high energy drive..... I have actually gotten up 1 hour earlier than I would if I didn't have him in order to get ready for work. He requires a good 45 minutes of Frisbee chasing every morning (rain or shine). Now that he is a little older and more mature this is not so demanding in my time. I also spend a good 45 minutes or more playing more frisbee in the evening with him or taking him for long walks in the park. Some evenings it's a family affair and my son and husband come too! But if they don't want (or even if I don't want) I still force myself to exercise the dogs. Of course he is still going to obedience classes even though he has strong obedience skills already. I believe a trained dog is a loved dog! The more training the better (for both owner and dog)! I look at training as a continual process. It never ends. Even when the dog doesn't realize I'm training, I am. I refer to it as play training the dog! Even watching television I am training the dog by having them in a down so they can relax and take a snooze.

Provide lots of alternative activities to keep Max happy. Stuffed Kongs or Buster Cubes (Dusty's favorite) to keep them occupied in getting there food (after they earn it by doing obedience commands) is a great stress reliever. When Dusty was younger that was his primary way of getting his kibble... piece by piece as it fell out of the ball he scooted around with his nose!

Basically, you need to find acceptable things to occupy Max. As he gets older he will naturally slow down some but for now he is going to require a lot of your attention. Exercise him and train him until he is exhausted!

[stacwase]

Dixieland, he's a shepherd/rottweiler mix. He's about 4 1/2, and I got him when he was 1 1/2. I do believe that he had obedience training before I got him, but I'm not sure. If he did, I didn't so it's not really relevant (if you know what I mean). He knows several commands (sit, stay, lay, speak, shake, etc.) but I've never been able to get him to behave on a leash. I have to walk him using a gentle lead or halti collar, because he pulls. I've tried the usual methods of leash training (trying to bump into him, etc.) but he's so fast and hyper on the leash, I gave up.

He actually shattered my finger into many pieces once, when I was holding the leash incorrectly and he saw a small animal. I had to have surgery and everything.

As far as exercise under my direction: I just don't know how to give him the amount of exercise he needs. In order to tire him out, he literally needs to run at breakneck speed for a minimum of one hour. I can't run like that, and there aren't any dog parks or fenced-in areas anywhere around. I used to take him to forests/nature trails and let him run off leash in order to get the exercise, but now I'm afraid to. I also used to let him run beside the 4-wheeler until he pooped out, but once again I'm afraid to do that now.


I could go 4-wheeling with him on a leash, I suppose?

There really aren't any large fenced-in areas I can use for him, so whatever I do with him needs to be with him on a leash. Except kayaking. When it's warm enough, I take him kayaking. He runs along the banks, swims, etc. for the whole 7 1/2 mile trip and is literally so exhausted at the end that he can barely walk back to the car. He likes to stay near the kayak.

He absolutely loves to pull. He'd make a good sled dog. But - I don't know how to use that to our advantage.

I have read about the NILIF (I think in Good Owners, Great Dogs). I can definitely start that again. In fact, now that I think of it, it worked before (three years ago).

I think I'll go figure out some way to use the 4-wheelers to exercise him. Thanks a bunch for all of your input.

[Glacier]

Originally posted by stacwase
I could go 4-wheeling with him on a leash, I suppose?

He absolutely loves to pull. He'd make a good sled dog. But - I don't know how to use that to our advantage.

I think I'll go figure out some way to use the 4-wheelers to exercise him. Thanks a bunch for all of your input.

I'd be worried about using a leash on the ATV, too easy to get pulled off or for Max to hurt his neck.

I use a 4 wheeler to train my dog team in the no snow months. Get skijoring line, a big clip and a proper pulling harness for Max. Clip the line to the front of the ATV and go. Let him set the pace.
Getting him to stay out front might take some work, but once he gets it he'll probably have a great time.

I can send you some links for getting a line and harness if you want.

[lizbud]

All good advice. All dogs need physical activity, but mental
stimulation through obedience training (mind games) also are
an important part of wearing a dog out (so to speak).

Periods of one on one dog trainingg exercises throughtout the
day can also tire out any dog.Plus they're learning by repetition
and reinforcement. Just a thought.

[stacwase]

Glacier, would you mind telling me more about those lines? It sounds very promising.

I just got back from a 4-wheeler run with him. I had my friend drive, and I rode behind him holding the leash, so that I could watch him carefully and let go if necessary. Max ran beside the 4-wheeler and didn't get behind it at all.

He must be getting a little out of shape because he only went 2 miles at 17-20 mph. Usually he'll go at least 10.

Anyway - I thought I had him properly pooped, but he managed to bolt as soon as we got home. He's back now, only gone a few minutes. Maybe he was too tired to stay out long.

I think that, if those lines are safer, 4-wheeling may be the way to go.

Maybe I should sign him up for somebody's sled dog team in the winter, LOL. There's lots of dog sledding up here, but the dogs are much smaller than Max. I guess he'd be too big.

[Glacier]

Originally posted by stacwase
Glacier, would you mind telling me more about those lines? It sounds very promising.

Maybe I should sign him up for somebody's sled dog team in the winter, LOL. There's lots of dog sledding up here, but the dogs are much smaller than Max. I guess he'd be too big.

Sure, a skijoring line is about 7 feet long, has a bungy at one end to absorb shocks and bumps. Usually you would have on a special belt and be cross country skiing behind the dog. In this case, get a big clip/carbinger and snap it on to the front of your ATV.

My team training on the ATV in October 04.

If you go to this website and scroll way down the page, you'll see picture of the lines. Howling Dog is a reputable supplier too, if you can't find such things near you.
http://www.howlingdogalaska.com/supplies.html

You're unlikely to find a musher who will just put a dog in their team, but there's no reason why he couldn't be a skijoring dog on his own. It's fun for both dog and human!

Me and Raven coming in to the finish line of our first skijoring race a couple years ago.

[stacwase]

So - what is the benefit of a skijoring line vs a leash + harness for when he's running with the 4-wheeler? Is it that the bungee will help prevent injury? Or were you thinking that he'd be able to pull the 4-wheeler with it?

[Glacier]

Originally posted by stacwase
So - what is the benefit of a skijoring line vs a leash + harness for when he's running with the 4-wheeler? Is it that the bungee will help prevent injury? Or were you thinking that he'd be able to pull the 4-wheeler with it?

I was thinking it would be safer for you mainly. Keeps both hands available for driving. The bungy also absorbs the bumps and stuff in the trail and makes it easier on the dog's body. One dog couldn't pull it alone, but if teaching him to pull is something you're interested in, running on an ATV is a good way to start.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by stacwase
he's a shepherd/rottweiler mix. He's about 4 1/2, and I got him when he was 1 1/2. I do believe that he had obedience training before I got him, but I'm not sure. If he did, I didn't so it's not really relevant (if you know what I mean). He knows several commands (sit, stay, lay, speak, shake, etc.) but I've never been able to get him to behave on a leash. I have to walk him using a gentle lead or halti collar, because he pulls. I've tried the usual methods of leash training (trying to bump into him, etc.) but he's so fast and hyper on the leash, I gave up.

You do own breeds that not only require a lot of physical stimulation, they also need a lot of mental stimulation. Start obedience classes with him immediately! DON'T GIVE UP.....you need to be his leader and you need to start showing him that you provide everything he needs and everything good in his life. Check the AKC website and some breed club websites for both breeds on information on Max's inborn characteristics. Knowing why and what he was bred for in the first place makes you one step closer to determining what he needs for mental and physical stimulation!

Only in extreme situations do I agree with using prong collars (for training only). Perhaps this is a wise choice for you when walking him on a loose lead. I'm not sure what you are referring to with the bump into him for teaching him how to walk on a lead. Use the NILIF method for walking him. If he pulls, he goes nowhere. When he doesn't pull you take steps. As soon as he pulls again, you stop again. Only take more steps when the leash goes slack. Make sure you use commands such as "no pull" and exuberant 'Good walk" commands when teaching him why you're not moving. Don't be surprised if you only go 40 or 50 feet in the first 1/2 hour. It's not distance you are trying to achieve at this point, it's no pulling! This is all seperate from training and using the heel command.

Do not use a leash as he runs by your ATV... I have images of bad things possibly happening with that scenario. I also think you missed the point I was making about getting him to retrieve something like a ball or a frisbee. You don't have to run...only he does. All you need to do is throw. Chuckit's (found at all pet stores in the toy section) are wonderful for getting balls to go long distance while you just stand there and wait for him to retrieve it back to you for another long run! Again though, you need to start out slow and make sure he understands retrieving before you start giving him freedom to go long distances. I think perhaps starting him on a long line should be the way to go with this learning skill.

Good Luck to you and Max!

[stacwase]

Thanks again, Glacier - I'll look into those lines more. In fact, skijoring looks kind of fun.

Dixie, would you believe I never even thought of playing fetch or frisbee with him on a long leash? I kept thinking "I wish I could just play fetch with him in the yard, but I don't have a fence." Duh.

I've had him 3 years, and I studied the breed characteristics of shepherds and rottweilers before getting him. If he'd behaved this way when I first got him, I wouldn't have been surprised. What caught me off-guard was the change in behavior. My fault, entirely, I understand. When the training and discipline fall to the wayside, Max naturally goes to the "backup plan" - which is to behave as a rott/shepherd would naturally behave!

I kind of needed that reminder - thanks!

I started NILIF again. It took us forever to get through the door this morning because I was making him sit and let me go through first. He totally does not get that concept - he hasn't from the beginning. That should help the bolting, though, don't you think?

I hope all of this works. The lives of Max, my chickens, and the local wildlife depend on it!

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by stacwase


I started NILIF again. It took us forever to get through the door this morning because I was making him sit and let me go through first. He totally does not get that concept - he hasn't from the beginning. That should help the bolting, though, don't you think?

Yes, it will help! Just remember the reason he doesn't get that concept is because he wasn't taught the concept. Dogs learn through repetition and reward for doing the correct behavior. Make sure you are "letting Max know" he is doing the correct behavior with consistent and timely reinforcements!

One last note, you may want to find an obedience class that teaches clicker training. I find this training to be the best and fastest way to make the dog "see the light" because it consistently makes the same sound to reinforce the dogs learning and he learns to listen for the click! I absolutely LOVE clicker training! There is lots of information on the internet about clicker training but I prefer Karen Pryor's site and information the best.

[Pit Chick]

What about getting him into weight pulling?