Extremely disappointed in the government and our large breed dog owners in Florida

**Lady's Human** · 03-08-2010, 05:17 PM

Okay, there have been famous APBTs.....and famous GSDs, and famous mutts...

Doesn't make them the mascot of the country, however.

**kokopup** · 03-08-2010, 05:23 PM

Indigo Bully Connection

Not too long ago the American Pit Bull Terrier was the mascott of this country, not the Bald Eagle... the APBT.

The bald Eagle is more than a Mascot, It is the Symbol of this nation.

Your Sargent Stubby (1916) at most was a mascot of Georgetown law school.

The Bald Eagle national significance dates back to June 20, 1782, when the Continental Congress officially adopted the current design for the seal including a Bald Eagle grasping arrows and an olive branch with its claw. Some states had earlier done so in 1778.

In 1784, after the end of the Revolutionary war, Benjamin Franklin wrote a famous letter to his daughter from Paris criticizing the choice and suggesting the Wild Turkey's character as a desirable trait:

**Indigo Bully Connection** · 03-09-2010, 01:09 PM

I appologise for not wording it correctly, I typed in haste. These dogs were very influencial to the United States and often the choice pet for families.

Could we please stay on topic about Breed Specific Legislation? I didn't come here to have a Pit Bull fight. That's not my style. I came here to express my frustrations about us being devided as an animal community, and hopefully get more people on board to help all of us responsible pet owners.

**kokopup** · 03-09-2010, 04:06 PM

Indigo

Could we please stay on topic about Breed Specific Legislation? I didn't come here to have a Pit Bull fight. That's not my style. I came here to express my frustrations about us being devided as an animal community, and hopefully get more people on board to help all of us responsible pet owners.

I have no problems with any breed. I have become very upset with the ownership of all breeds. Here In Alabama I have not found, Not to say there aren't any, responsible owners of the Pit Bull. I ride my bike all over this state and have had some pretty close calls with many breeds of dogs that want to take me off my bike. Mtn Biking takes you to some very remote parts of rural America. I have not found in my travels any owners that did not have these dogs for any purpose but to Protect property. Some are restrained and some are not. The ones left unrestrained and allowed to attack what they perceive to be on their turf bothers me. I had a neighbor that let her Pit run lose to do what ever. I have posted my problems with this neighbor before so I want rehash history.

Unfortunately the people that I have had contact with, have the Pit for one reason. If it isn't mean they make it mean through of lack of socialization. I have had these owners tell me point blank they didn't want a nice pet, the meaner the better.

I am all for making any legislation about dogs be put on the OWNER. If the owner is not responsible then the pets should be taken away and put in a responsible home. This pertains to humane living conditions, adequate food and water and socialization.

It is unfortunate that the Micheal Vick's of the world have given the Pit Bull such a bad reputation. In my part of the world Dog fighting is a fact of life. I remember well when Petey of Our Gang signified all that was good with the breed. I am afraid those days have past because a new Breed of OWNER has surfaced. The responsible PIT owners are out numbered, in this area anyway, by the irresponsible owner. (IMO, disclaimer) It is a shame.

**Indigo Bully Connection** · 03-09-2010, 05:06 PM

I completely agree with everything you've said

Unfortunately, this is the harsh reality that I face daily... I definitely would never force my dogs or my breed of choice onto anyone... but on the same note, if someone is even concidering getting one of these dogs and i catch wind of it they do get an ear full lmao.

It's disgusting to me that people look at these dogs as some kind of theft deterrent... yeah, it works right now because of the media and the label that they have slapped on my dogs, but what happens when (hopefully my rights will still be here) the general cesus moves onto the next breed??? My house will be ran sacked by theives because the fear is no longer there. I let anyone know who is contemplating getting one of these dogs not to get disspointed when it doesn't turn out the way you wanted it to haha! I do want ya'll to know that I am not ignorant to those few "problem children" out there that make it to the 10 o clock news...

It's also so frustrating to me to see these dogs who are obvious mixes get labeled as an APBT... IDK if ya'll know this or not, but a real APBT will never reach more than 60 pounds.... eh, I can step back on this... there was one dog in history whos weight was 75 pounds when he was fat, but when he was exercised he weighed about 60-65, but he was concidered a freak of nature... this dog was named Colby's Pinscher
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com...ee&dog_id=5650

I know a couple of great people out of Alabama... 2 couples actually, both are located close to Birmingham, but are on different ends of the scope as to which kinds of dogs they like... one couple like American Bullies (like my dogs... more showy and big) and one of them like Game lined (tend to be smaller around 35-45 pounds) dogs for working purposes like weight pull and hunting.

Mike Vick is a whooole can of worms himself for me hahhaa... What I do know is that people who are seriously into that realm of the dog world... the ones that are not in it for the money or a glorious name for themselves are not the ones who are adding to our issues (I DO believe it is wrong 100% either way)... if anything they are the least of our problems because they keep their dogs contained and out of sight in fear of getting in trouble. It's the idiots who get busted doing this monsterous stuff that we all have to account for. Does that make sense?

**bckrazy** · 03-11-2010, 02:33 AM

Kokopup, I agree with your arguement in a lot of ways... Pit Bulls DO attract unsavory characters much of the time. Also why shelters are flooded with lots of good, sweet Pit Bulls who will die there.

But, do you really think all of those skeezballs are going to just decide that dog ownership is not for them when they aren't allowed to own Pit Bulls anymore? No. They'll just move on to the next breed. Probably a breed that is not as predisposed to human friendliness. Can you imagine if the new "it" guard/fighting dog was a real, working guardian breed, like a Fila? Oh vey.

The issue is not the dogs... the issue is irresponsible people allowed to do what they please with their dogs, a lack of law enforcement and a lack of public education. The breed of the dog is irrelevant. I have had far more scary encounters (both human and dog) with Labs than Pit Bulls, and lots of experience with both breeds. In fact I've never met a HA Pit Bull out of hundreds and I work with dogs in a city with PLENTY of badly raised and irresponsibly owned Pitties. That's my experience.

**MonicanHonda** · 03-11-2010, 09:48 AM

People are already moving on. My hometown is definitely riddled with not so well pit bulls and pit bull fighting. I have seen such an increase in cane corsos, it's not funny.

**Twisterdog** · 03-11-2010, 11:49 AM

This is such a tough subject for me, I'm not even sure I should jump in here. *sigh*

I have owned a boarding kennel and grooming shop for fourteen years, and worked with shelters and rescues for decades. I have boarded, groomed, rescued, owned, etc. thousands upon thousands of dogs over this time period. My personal experience: I have never met a human aggresive pit bull. Dog aggresive, yes. I have never been afraid of a pit bull. I have rescued several, and board hundreds. Big, sweet mushy babies, in my personal experience. My son's dog's mother is a pit mix, even though you would never know it by looking at him. I personally like the breed.

I have been bit by a lab, a golden, a GSD and a shar pei. I have been bit by innumerable lhasas, poodles, poms, chihuahuas. But, to be fair, they didn't bite me because they are small dogs, ankle biters, neurotic, or any of the other sterotypes that some people attach to small dogs. They bit me because I was grooming them ... brushing out a mat, clipping toe nails, any number of frightening things. I dislike the unfair stereotypes attached to small dogs as much as dislike the ones attached to pit bulls. But I've never been bit by a pit bull.

I think BSL is a sad, sad thing. It's a terrible shame that humans have created, and then abused, an animal to the point that it now terrifies the general public. Yes, the media carries some blame for overdramatization. But the media only publishes what sells. And ignorant people who refuse to be swayed by the facts carry some blame. But that's nothing new, Joe Q. Public has always been an ignorant, opinionated dude. Breaks my heart to think of the sweet family pets and their families affected by BSL.

OTOH ... facts are facts, and sometimes the facts hurt. The fact is that insurance companies won't insure property owners who allow certain breeds of dogs to live on their property. Therefore the property owners must forbid these breeds or lose their insurance. Without insurance you can't operate. The insurance companies base their decisions and rates on numerical statistics and facts, not guesswork. Actuaries compile detailed statistics on every facet of insurable life ... including dog bites per breed. And the fact is, certain breeds cause more severe bites than other breeds. Chihuahuas might in fact snap more than pit bulls, but the damage done by a pit bull bite obviously far outweighs the chihuahua. One can find a website that professes to have the "right" statistics, and claiming extremes on both ends of the BSL spectrum. But the fact of the matter is, sadly, the humans have created dogs who can be extremely dangerous, some breeds much more dangerous than others. Terribly sad and indeed unfair that nice dogs and families suffer for that.

Not everyone likes dogs, or are interested in doing hundreds of hours of research about them. The average American, not in the dog fancy, doesn't want to wade through thousands of pages of conflicting arguments about a certain breed. They want quick information about something they consider a potential threat to their safety. They look up statistics from a reputable source, like the CDC, their insurance company, their attorney, etc. And what they find does not honestly look good for certain breeds. Yes, they could take the time to meet and get to know a particular dog of a particular breed ... but those stats are still there. What really is your average American to think then, confronted with stats like these? If it wasn't dogs, which I know a lot about, but, say, snowmobiles, which I know nothng about ... I'd read the safety statistics and say, "Oh man, 30-50% of deaths on snowmobiles are from Brand X and Brand Y. Well, I won't be buying those two brands or letting my kids on one!" Right? Sad for the dogs, but understandable for the people, too.

**Vette** · 03-11-2010, 02:32 PM

Bah. i think it sucks.

we have enough racism in the world. we dont need breedism too.

**Animalhouse26** · 03-12-2010, 02:53 AM

I am not even getting into this debate here..as I have been doing the fight on another forum..all 19pages of it.. *sigh* But all I am gonna say is.. If my Family member went to jail for Raping and or murdering someone.. Am I also at fault?

**bckrazy** · 03-12-2010, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by Twisterdog

If it wasn't dogs, which I know a lot about, but, say, snowmobiles, which I know nothng about ... I'd read the safety statistics and say, "Oh man, 30-50% of deaths on snowmobiles are from Brand X and Brand Y. Well, I won't be buying those two brands or letting my kids on one!" Right? Sad for the dogs, but understandable for the people, too.

Sure.

But, what if, 99% of those deaths were caused by people drunkenly driving the snowmobiles? Would you still blame the snowmobiles or rationalize and REALIZE that it's the PEOPLE who are attracted to those snowmobiles, through no fault of the snowmobiles?

What if those snowmobiles also happen to be some of the most stable, sweetest, most fun snowmobiles out there?

**Twisterdog** · 03-17-2010, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by bckrazy

Sure.

But, what if, 99% of those deaths were caused by people drunkenly driving the snowmobiles? Would you still blame the snowmobiles or rationalize and REALIZE that it's the PEOPLE who are attracted to those snowmobiles, through no fault of the snowmobiles?

What if those snowmobiles also happen to be some of the most stable, sweetest, most fun snowmobiles out there?

I didn't say it was right. I just said it is human nature. If one is not deeply interested in a subject, they are NOT going to spend the vast amounts of time necessary to properly research said subject. I honestly probably wouldn't spend the time necessary to delve into the demographics of each brand of snowmobile ridership. I don't care that much. And the average person who is not that into dogs isn't going to either. Not saying that's fair by any means, but it's nonetheless a fact.

**Snowhound** · 03-18-2010, 10:43 AM

Hi, have only just joined this site so hello to all. You've no doubt heard it all before, but I'll say it again - there are no bad dogs, just bad dog owners (a bit like children - they're potentially good but it depends on the parenting.) I have owned an Anatolian Shepherd Dog, a Doberman, a Rottweiler, and currently own a Leonberger. None of my dogs have ever been a menace as I trained them well. Here in New Zealand where I live, the public want certain breeds like Pitbulls & Rotties removed from society as there have been several attacks on children/adults - but it isn't the breed of dog, it's the owners who are to blame. Unfortunately some owners of these breeds of dog train them to fight & be aggressive & treat them badly. That is no reason to ban a breed of dog, but perhaps we should ban certain types of people (if only we could!)

Occasionally, just as in the human race, one can come across a sociopathic/psychopathic dog - read a great book once written by dog trainers who came across one - it was one of those ankle-biting small terrier dogs which had to be put down for continual biting of anyone who came near it. I'm sure this must happen in all forms of life occasionally.

But, overall, be the Alpha Dog to any breed & it will grow up to respect you & others around it I like to believe.

Snowhound

**Indigo Bully Connection** · 03-18-2010, 02:45 PM

Great news you guys! With the help of Cheryl Caragan (a wonderful APBT breeder in WA), Ernie Sims father, and two BSL reps (one from the AKC) had a sit down meeting last week with the department of Agriculture and put a stop to this bill! They are all currently working together to come up with more options for dangerous dog laws, but they have let go of the breed specific part which I am totally stoked about!