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Thread: Does anyone watch Dog Whisperer?

  1. #16
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    This topic has been covered several times on the forum... most recently in Behavior: http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthre...=dog+whisperer

    My opinion is expressed in that post. In short, I would watch it as entertainment, and nothing more. Those warnings before/after/during the Dog Whisperer are there for a reason - the techniques used in many of the cases are incredibly dangerous and foolish, and the show doesn't want to be liable for people thinking they can use them to "cure" their own dogs. To me, it's like watching Rock of Love with Bret Michaels for tips on how to date.

    I like It's Me Or The Dog. Do you ever see dozens of warnings on Victoria's show? No. Enough said.



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  2. #17
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    The difference between Its Me Or The Dog and CM is that Cesar's cases are more extreme. Victoria takes on cases like dogs peeing in the house... Cesar deals with usually aggressive dogs. Its different... And sure its all entertainment. That's why its still on tv. I watched probably a full season of IMOTD and gave up. I'd have my dvr record them and watch them several at a time on Saturdays... I don't find her skills as effective.

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  3. #18
    I'm not trying to start anything, but the last poster made a good point...Cesar takes on difficult cases and even saves dogs lives. Victoria is helpful too, but she usually just teaches dogs not to pee in the house. Even I could do that.

  4. #19
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    I don't want to start anything either... obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Mine is a little bit stronger, due to all of the bad experiences I've had with people using CM "techniques". I have witnessed first hand the horrible impact that some of his teachings have had on dogs and people. I know some one whose dog attacked them and was PTS because of using his exact techniques. Not the basic stuff, like exercise, calmness, and tsssing... what really scares me is the physical confrontation, rough handling, alpha rolling, that garbage.

    As far as IMOTD, I have seen shows featuring dogs who had bitten people and who were seriously dog aggressive. Victoria does not push the dogs to the point of attacking her on her show, she desensitizes and conditions the dogs gradually. The difference is that the process isn't sensationalized and the results aren't instantaneous which does make it a lot less entertaining but a lot more practical. Changing the way that a dog thinks, reacts, and processes stimulus (IMHO) is not as easy is pinning them to the ground until they cease to do anything.

    I have seen many, many episodes of the Dog Whisperer involving dogs who are nothing but rude, good-natured and untrained... he still alpha rolls them, hand-bites them, and intimidates them into a state of shut down. Just today, there was an adorable, delightful Pit Bull puppy who jumped all over people and excitedly mouthed them. He could have been EASILY trained that sitting and being polite was the only thing that he got him attention and praise, this was basic puppy raising. The puppy was rolled over on his side, out of fear, and Cesar got on him and held him down. The puppy actually lunged at him, in a serious way. I would much rather have a friendly, obnoxious dog than a sedate, fearful dog who sees human hands as a source of pain and reprimand.



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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtmanning View Post
    All I can say is, some methods are for some people, some methods are for others. One thing is for sure, Cesar Millan never goes with anger, hate or resentment, only love, and he does not fail to leave peace and happiness in his wake.
    I can tell you that the only thing I have felt in the wake of all you "Anti-Cesar" people is anger, frustration, anxiety and the temptation to get angry and tell you how much I disagree. But, being a natural behaviourist myself, whom agrees and supports all other methods (including positive only training!) I am happy just to smile and move on.
    This message is really just to try and help some of you open your eyes, look at the good things, not only in other methods, but life too. I mean, on a serious note, you're sitting there writing how much you disagree with Cesar, but in the end, who's listening? How do you feel when you write them? Happy? And what is it solving? And, on a less serious note, does Cesar even care!
    Try and redirect some of that anger and resentment into a nice smile!

    Go with peace.



    George
    A very interesting post. Thank you.

    And just for the record - I enjoy watching Dog Whisperer and always am amazed at the results he gets. I don't necessarily feel that people should try his methods at home. It's always best to leave most of what he does to a trained professional. IMHO of course.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtmanning View Post
    I mean, on a serious note, you're sitting there writing how much you disagree with Cesar, but in the end, who's listening? How do you feel when you write them? Happy? And what is it solving? And, on a less serious note, does Cesar even care!
    Try and redirect some of that anger and resentment into a nice smile!
    Who is listening?

    Since you're new to this forum, I guess you don't completely understand it. I listen to others. Hopefully, others listen to me. This is a very tight knit forum and even though I don't post as often as I used to, I know most of these people very well. I have learned so, so, so much from the people here over several years it's unbelievable. And, not every thread that I have learned valuable information from has been 100% sunshine and rainbows. As long as there are no personal attacks toward members, or nasty language, I feel that debating is a wonderful way of expressing one's own opinion and learning more about others.

    How do you feel when you write about how all of us are wasting our time and how we should warmly accept what we do not morally agree with? Obviously, you have at least a smidgeon of anger and resentment toward those of us who don't support the "Dog Whisperer", or you wouldn't be telling us to shut up and smile. When I express how I feel about a show that glorifies training techniques literally decades old and outdated, I feel hopeful that maybe some one will decide to look into more humane ways of training their dogs. I do so because I have a passion for dogs, and particularly for training dogs, and my mentors (some of the best behaviorists in the area http://www.4pawsu.com) have really opened my eyes about "dog psychology" in general. What they taught me helped me, and it "solved" a lot of the issues that I had with my dog because I was using negative punishment to supress behaviors rather than shape new ones. I hope that I open some other people's eyes, but if I don't, I have no ill will towards them because they are free to make their own personal choices. Does Cesar care? Probably not... he is ludicrously rich and I'm sure he hasn't a care in the world. He has yet to respond to the many, many world-reknown behaviorists who have called him out, so I'm sure he won't respond to little old me. I don't care, at all. I care more about the millions of people he influences every day on his glamorized TV show that makes him look like a hero.

    If we all smile and move on, what do we learn?

    Quote Originally Posted by gtmanning View Post
    Nice to see someone level-headed and friendly on here, it seems like we need more on this forum!
    Ugh. On your 8th post you say this? I am so done.



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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtmanning View Post
    Thank you too!

    I agree with you.

    Nice to see someone level-headed and friendly on here, it seems like we need more on this forum!
    I feel that for the most part, people on here are level-headed and friendly. They are also strong willed, and therefore can come across as angry and even opinionated. I don't think there's a person here that doesn't love animals, and therefore they have very strong opinions and attitudes about animal care, training, etc, etc. No one tries to be mean spirited, but sometimes in expressing opinions they are passionate about, can come across in a manner that does not appear very kind.

    We really are a lovable bunch - just ask us!!!
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    To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven.
    Ecclesiastes 3:1
    The clock of life is wound but once and no man has the power
    To know just when the hands will stop - on what day, or what hour.
    Now is the only time you have, so live it with a will -
    Don't wait until tomorrow - the hands may then be still.
    ~~~~true author unknown~~~~

  8. #23
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    Put me in my place? Please. Alpha rolls might work on supressing your dog's behaviors, but it won't supress mine. Sorry.

    I agree that the alpha roll is a primal process. The only reason that a dog FORCEFULLY flips another onto it's back and holds it by the neck is when they intend to kill. By forcing an animal to submit in that way you are literally putting the fear of death into them, they think you are trying to kill them. Have you read any current dog behavior/body language books... which were written by licensed, certified, proven behaviorists?

    Also, almost all of your argument is regurgitated from aggressive positive trainers, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that the trainer who helped your dog also brainwashed you into hating and blocking out all other methods
    Yes. Just as your argument is regurgitated from aggressive CM followers. I don't get brainwashed, by anyone. My training techniques are based on the past 6 years of my life (since I was 14) of training, working with dogs, reading, seminars, and personal experiences. My mentors are amazing trainers who have saved the lives of people and dogs without laying a hand on anyone, and they are not in the least bit aggressive, but they are educated and they are confident in their beliefs. As a matter of fact, I use verbal corrections, and I am not 100% positive, even though most of my trainers are. I do believe that one should do what works for their dog, but I will never support physically reprimanding dogs, ever. That doesn't mean I'm going to shun anyone who does, it's my personal opinion.

    "his glamourized show", wow, you don't stop with the stereotypical positive-trainer, anger-filled, distorted, alluded, ill-informed arguments, there isn't even bother in responding to that.
    Stereotypical positive-trainer? Brainwashed? Wowza. I thought you said you supported all kinds of training? I guess not. Honestly, if anyone is easily angered, I don't feel that it's me here. I'm sharing my opinion. I never attacked you personally, I expressed my opinion about Cesar Millan, as is the topic of this thread. YOU are doing the personal attacks, and getting worked up over a Cesar Millan thread. Obviously, your beliefs aren't as middle of the road as you try to make them seem, as you act like my feelings about Cesar are a personal stab at you. I do find it reallyyy amusing that you call ME brainwashed, when you're acting like Cesar is your messiah or something.

    I will explain. I called the show "glamorized" because, to an extent, any TV show is glamorized. Cutting and editing can change everything. Also, you don't see behind the scenes. You don't see the dogs who turned around and bit their owners when they applied CM's techniques. You don't see the dogs that have died in his care. You don't see the whole story, you see exactly what CM and NGC want you to see.

    LOL, despite your arrogence, I actually agree with you here, I just wanted to get a feel for this forum and the people on it, and I have.
    I'm not the only person on this forum. I have no problem with you being here, but that doesn't mean I'm going to sit back and smile when I disagree with something. How am I arrogant when you're calling me an unkind person? That hurts my feelings, there is a lot more to me than a Dog Whisperer thread.
    Last edited by bckrazy; 05-09-2009 at 06:36 PM.



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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtmanning View Post
    For you, I would recommend, rather than reading so many "licensed, positive-only books", spend some time around a pack of dogs.
    I love nothing more than spending time around dogs. My dogs make me happier than anyone I know. My weekends are filled with going to the beach with my dogs and my friend's dogs, dog parks, Flyball/Agility/Obedience, as are as many weekdays as possible. I am fascinated and continually amazed by the personalities, idiosyncrasies, and the way dogs communicate with each other and with me. I enjoy reading books to gain insight and new perspectives from those who are more experienced and knowledgable, and just as passionate, as I am.

    May I ask what exactly you are? As you provoked the question in saying "there is a lot more to me than a Dog Whisperer thread." Please, I would really like to know. Personally, my life is around canids, wild, and domestic, and I devote my life to understanding, rehabilitating, and relating to dogs on a natural level that they can relate to.
    Well, I couldn't really answer that in just one post. I can be very, very giving and compassionate and silly one moment and as serious as a heartattack the next. There are few things that I am passionate about, but those few things mean the world to me and I am unwavering in my feelings about them. One of those things is dogs. I feel closer and more touched by my dogs than 99.9% of people, but despite that, I know I am not a dog and will never fully relate to them. I love to find ways to relate to them, through natural motivators (food, play, affection, etc) and through changing the way I move/sound/act/etc, but I feel that there is only so much I can do as an awkward human being to communicate with my dogs. I know my timing will never be the same as a dog. I know my hands are no replacement for a dog's expertly inhibited mouth. I know I couldn't even begin to express the same emotions through subtle postures and vocalizations the way that dogs do. I suppose that is the biggest difference between us - I see the dog/human bond as very strong and very valid, but I do not feel that I am warranted to use physical force in an attempt to emulate dogs, when the consequences and affects of it could be devestating. That is my opinion. For me, I work with what I have, to make my life and my dog's lives the absolute best that they can be together.

    To me, words mean little, action speaks louder than words. And as far as words go, I'm almost out of them, I'm very tired and have dogs to attend to.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by gtmanning View Post
    I came on this forum to help people with their dogs problems and to spread peace, not to debate training methods.

    Nobody to this day has been able to tell me why negative people are so powerful, how you have managed to bring out so much negativeness in me is truly bewildering, but you have helped me learn about myself, and for that, I thank you.
    Well... negativeness and all, you DID learn something about yourself, and that's why debates can be very fulfilling. I am all for spreading peace, but peace can hardly be achieved without being at peace enough with yourself to be able to openly express your feelings.
    Last edited by bckrazy; 05-09-2009 at 07:29 PM.



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  10. #25
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    Just gotta say George you have Erica (bccrazy) all wrong, she is an extremely level headed young lady with a good head on her shoulders.

    I have met her in person and she is a very kind person and very good with her dogs and dog belonging to other people.

    You on the other hand are coming across really rude imho.

    We tend to try to help people on here not to pacify each other but provide true help, that can only help when true advice is given, not just smiley faces.
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  11. #26
    I am another member who does not believe in Dominance Theory. Dominance theory came about from studies of wolves. However these studies were faulty, being that the wolves studied were captive populations in zoos. Here is an interesting PDF for those who care to read it: http://www.wolf.org/wolves/news/iwma.../alphawolf.pdf

    Also, the wolf is so far removed from the dog in so many ways that I believe it is a fallacy to base our interactions with dogs on how wolves interact with each other. There was a study that was done with a dog and a wolf pup raised in captivity. They set up a test where they had to pull a rope to get at treat. When the dog pulled the rope and didn't get a treat, the dog looked to the human for help. The wolf just kept on pulling. Dogs have been with us for a very long time throughout the evolution of society, and in that time they have learned to read our body language remarkably well. Point your hand and the dog will look where your hand is pointing. My cat doesn't do that, she just watches my hand movement.

    The point of my rambling is, with a creature who looks to us for guidance, who is so in tune to our behavior, I prefer to teach them what to do and how to behave instead of simply trying to punish the bad behavior out of them.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtmanning View Post
    Honestly, I'd be happy for you to show me some positive training techniques, but I don't know if you would grant me the same honour for you? With regards to natural techniques.
    I would love to discuss training techniques! Always. I can't promise I'll use them, but I will definitely take them into consideration and appreciate them.

    I am a huge fan of clicker training, for teaching new behaviors and strengthening training with distractions. One of my favorite uses of the clicker is teaching my dogs to stay nearby when we're on off-leash walks on trails, in the woods, on the beach, etc. They, of course, want to explore, and I want them to, but I also want them to WANT to check in on me often and stay close. I used to repeatedly tell them to "come", which did work, but they were simply responding to a command rather than choosing to be near me. I started to click/treat every time they would turn to look at me, then I phased that out to only click/treating every time they came to my side by choice, then I began to only click/treat every few times and praise/pet the rest of the time. Now, we can go on an hour long walk and they will check in on me consistently, and stay very close, without any click/treat at all. I will do it every so often to keep the positive association, but it's not necessary, it has become second nature. Instead of before, where it was "Omg I get to run around and explore!" it's now "Omg I get to explore... but, wait, staying close is a good thing too!" and I don't have to pester them about it. Clickers aren't necessary, but they help tremendously to mark the "checking in" behavior. Their willingness to stay close has really come in handy, if I need to leash them or get their attention quickly. Fozzie actually stays by me too much! D: I have to tell him to go on, because he tends to constantly work for a click/treat/pet/approval.

    Honestly, I don't care where my dog is located (behind me or in front of me) as long as they are paying attention to me and attentive of my commands. I see soooo many people jerking their dogs around behind them, because "leaders walk in front", but just because a dog is walking behind you doesn't mean they are respectful. Particularly in most cases where it takes constant leash corrections to achieve the dog walking behind you.

    Can I just bring up one more thing, no dog has died as a result of Cesar's techniques or subsequently in his care, in-fact, from a totally neutral point of view, Cesar has saved many, many dogs from death.
    My bad... a dog nearly died in his care.

    As a result of his techniques? I can say, by an acquaintence of mine, yes. Not killed by him personally, but from some one emulating the show and getting attacked then euthanizing the dog, as countless dog owners do without any legitimate knowledge or research of dog behavior. It's great that there is a warning during the show, but that is in place to protect the company only, not the millions of viewers.

    I completely support giving dogs plenty of healthy exercise, restrictions, and boundaries, and I'm sure Cesar has saved dogs. But, would those dogs have also been saved, and been more stable/sound dogs if trained by a qualified positive-reinforcement behaviorist? We'll never know. I'm going to guess, yes, as my behaviorists have saved numerous dogs on the brink of euthanasia as well.



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  13. #28
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    I too love cesar milan and his show his tip have helped a lot of my clients( i groom dogs) with thier problems, not big ones, but things like not wanting to walk on new laminate flooring. i have practised claiming my dogs food as my rescue used to be food aggresive, now i can stick my face in her food and she will totally back off. a dog is a dog and always will be but i still treat them like my baby. i think you have to be dominant over them in order to treat them like a baby. affraid of and respectful are 2 different things. a strang person coming into control some of your actions i would shy away from to and go back to the person that lets them get away with every thing, they may look affraid but they are not. dogs try to manipulate ppl just they way kids do you have to be firm. again i love him and the fact that he gives a great name to pits and rotties, they need a good spokes person like that

  14. #29
    I haven't checked into the show much lately but from what I have seen he is a complete moron, his training techniques and theories are outdated and the dogs only respond to him out of fear. This isn't how training should work. My dog used to love learning new things even if we were breaking him out of a bad habit he just loved to try and learn.

    The think I hate most is that he trades dogs like they are pokemon cards. If he can't get the dog the way he wants within the allotted amount of time then he just gives the people one of his dogs and takes in their current one. This is a bad both on Cesar and the owners but why let it happen?

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  15. #30
    I think the reason he suggests exchanging dogs with some people on the show lately is because he gives the people a dog whose energy level matches theirs better. Then the dog who had behavioral issues which the owners couldn't correct goes on to live in Cesar's doggie sanctuary rather than eventually bite someone then be put to sleep by animal control. Not sure if that's the whole procedure in trading pokemon cards, but if I had a dog I knew I just couldn't handle I'd be willing to let it live out the rest of it's life at the Dog Psychology Center playing fetch and running around with other dogs every day in a happy and balanced state.

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