Meet My Foster! = )

[buttercup132]

Aww Erica your amazing
I would have followed him though lol and beat his a**
I wish I could take her off you, she looks sooo sweet

Do you want me to see if my rescue will do a courtesy post on petfinder of her?

[bckrazy]

I'm sorry I haven't updated for a few days...

First of all, Jemima is completely healthy besides being underweight. She gained 6 lbs already! I'm relieved that her mistreatment hasn't resulted in any serious illnesses.

I also have some very, very bad news. After I knew she was healthy, I started slowly introducing her to Fozzie. He is a bombproof dog, completely unthreatening, laid back, and another dog has not so much as growled at him he is so dog-social. I thought everything was going to go well. I was walking them together, and they did well, sniffed each other a bit and pretty much ignored one another. I went inside the house with them for a minute... literally one minute... Fozzie was sitting about 10 feet away from her and not even looking. And Jemima went after him. No warnings, or changes in her body language, she just went after him. Fozzie was running away and she was still going after him, and was pulling and snapping at him even when I managed to grab her collar. Fozzie was shaking afterwards, but thankfully unharmed.

I am so disheartened and sad right now. I don't know what I'm going to do. With that reaction, there's NO WAY she could get along with Gonzo, and I just can't put either of my dog's in harms way so they have to be isolated from each other 24/7. I'm scared. They've already accidentally met 3 times... thanks to certain people I live with... and before now, it seems like she was just so weak and unsure that she didn't react. I don't blame her at all for possibly being DA, whether from fear or guarding or whatever. She has scars, she's obviously been hurt by other dogs. But this really changes everything and I'm worried about how I'm going to handle keeping 3 dogs happy who cannot be together at all for the next few weeks, possibly even months.

[BC_MoM]

Our rescue tries to not deal with dog aggressive dogs simply for the fact that most of our foster homes and homes that adopt from us already have other dogs.

IMO, keeping her confined isn't something you should feel guilty about. While it's not her fault she's aggressive (probably the scum that dumped her's fault), being cooped up for several hours is better than being killed, a stray, or winding up in the pound, right?

[Husky_mom]

my two Huskies are separated by that same reason... Ninja can´t stand China.... they share a gate and can sniff/see each other but not touch...

China wants to play and Ninja immediately growls and snaps... so for their better they are separated... no big deal... I´d love if they could be together but it just wasn´t meant for them... both were raised together since puppies... but a third dog started this between them... so it wasn´t abuse or socialization just maybe following up or dominancy... China is very very mellow and Ninja is more dominant but was ok until this other dog tried to be the alpha on China... when removed Ninja took over that task and it was not pretty...

I hope her being young might still be able to "remove" the ugly part so they can be together...perhaps more time for her to realize not all people and not all dogs are bad... she might not know that dogs play...

[RobiLee]

She's a cutie. I'm sorry to hear about the dog aggressive problem and I'm wishing you all the best.

[Giselle]

Erika, I understand the worry and fear well. I won't go into details, but let's just say Ivy and I understand very very well and we have our own horror stories to tell.

And I will say this: You still have a chance to keep everything stable and everybody sane. I made a commitment to Ivy, and I will not give her up as I cannot rehome her in good conscience. She has serious issues and it would be downright irresponsible for me to release her into new hands. So, in a sense, I am obligated to keep her. But you are not by any means obligated to keep Jemima, even as a foster. I know it sounds cruel, but I know what it's like to own an unstable dog in a multi-dog home and I know what it entails and I don't want you to walk into that.

If Jemima is truly dog aggressive (and I would make multiple, full assessments and enact NILIF and similar discipline regiments before deciding for sure), I would consider two things:
1) Exactly how unstable is she and to what extent and in what situations?
2) Knowing #1, can you, in good conscience, rehome her? And what type of home would she need and what quality of life would she receive with those stipulations?

But before you decide: Try to consider and understand her triggers. She sounds very attached to you. If you were with them when she attacked, it's very likely that she was fighting over you. It doesn't mean she's "dominant" or all that other fudge. It just means that she doesn't have self control, she doesn't have proper socialization skills, and she desperately needs guidance. It's workable, but Jemima may always carry an inherent risk if this is deeply biological. And it very well could be. I know this all too well, and I give you my deepest sympathies.

Sleep on it. And if you need tips on how to control these types of dogs, don't hesitate to PM me. I'm all too familiar with these situations...

[AllAmericanPUP]

Dog agression is just something that is dealt with when having a bully breed(i know she's not really yours though, i don't blame you for being scared)

Eli is seperated from my other dogs 24/7, it's not always easy but it is completely do-able.

Maybe you could try contacting a bully breed rescue in your area and see if they can take her since they have more experience in re-homing dogs with DA..

I'll crosspost this to some bully rescue people I know and see if they can help at all
do you have an email that someone would be able to contact you at?

[lute]

What an unfortinate finding. She's got a better chance of finding a good home as an only dog through you than at any shelter. Good luck with her and I hope all goes well with finding her a home.

[So-Crafty]

One of the ideas that I heard recently, I really liked. If you watch Victoria Stillwell, I'm sure you'll know what I'm talking about. I do enjoy her training methods and find them to be more up to date than Cesar.

Do you have a friend or family member that would be able to assist you in walking your dogs? If so, then go to a neutral area and either you hold the leash of Jemima or one of your friends/family. Basicall you want all three dogs to be on a leash. Walk the dogs in a neutral area and reward Jemima (and the others) when they all behave in a positive way toward each other. Then you can move them closer to each other, and again reward them when they behave positively.

This will teach Jemima that good things happen around other dogs. It will take a while, but it may assist. Although I don't really know anything about bully-breeds, I do know that some may be eager to please and this may work well with her. She really is a cutie. Don't give up *hugs*

[Giselle]

So-Crafty, it sounds like that technique is geared primarily towards fear aggressive dogs. It's mainly attempting to replace a dog's negative connotation with something positive. That's the standard treatment for a fear aggressive dog, but, IMO, it will provide minimal lasting effects for a non-fear-aggressive dog. From what Erika wrote, it doesn't sound like Jemima has classic fear aggression and that she needs more intense training than mere counter-conditioning. Jemima's radical shift in behavior is indicative to me, at least, that she has more problems than fear aggression. These are the issues I see:
- She doesn't provide ample warning signs. Normal dogs growl. Dogs who skip growling and go straight from staring to attacking are the more dangerous with which to work. Erika wrote that she couldn't detect any obvious change in body language. That probably means Jemima gave a quick 1-2 second warning of hard eyes, tense muscles, staring, etc. before she struck. In other words, it was all silent and almost indiscernible. That's dangerous..
- She has a low threshold and low impulse control. Both of these can be raised, but it takes time and a lot of training.
- She needs very concrete rules and guidelines.
- She needs structured, supervised socialization opportunities that focus on her ability to focus on the handler in the presence of other dogs. So, basically, she needs to learn that other dogs are no big deal, and this requires more intense training than counter conditioning.

It's not an easy task, and I extend all my hope, help, and thoughts to you, Erika!

[wolf_Q]

She is absolutely adorable!! That is awful that she would just be dumped like that. Sorry to hear about the incident with Fozzie too, especially with no warning, that is very scary. I'm not sure I could handle trying to keep all the dogs apart all the time. Good luck, I'm sure you will be able to find her a great home.

[So-Crafty]

Giselle,

You have made very valid points and sometimes dog behavior other than normal run-of-the mill things. I'll be the first to admit that I know nothing about those cases that dogs just snap and offer no insight to their thoughts and reactions. I thought if by starting in a positive way and setting guidelines could become a basis for structure. Mostly by putting another situation in a good light. For me, I see her behavior as fear. She doesn't know how to react, so her first instinct is to fight. Perhaps she never learned bite inhibition, or proper "dog" language. These are things to work on over a period of time.

I do agree with you on everything you said. But, for my own self, out of curiousity, do you feel that Jemima needs a firm hand or a positive, upbeat sort of human? Ignore the bad, reward the good. I don't think she is behaving that way for attention, mostly because she doesn't know any better, IMO. As far as supervised socialization goes, how would be a good way to start that process in which you are both firm and positive?

Like I said, this is a learning curve for me, I don't really know anything about bully-breeds. Any dog I've ever encountered has always been taught with repetition, clickers and positive learning experiences. You can PM me your answer if you'd like - this is all very interesting to me!

[Giselle]

My apologies to Erika if I'm driving this thread down a bumpy road, but I hope you all don't mind if I answer the questions here. Maybe it'll help some other dogs down this road, too

So-Crafty, in fact, I'm a diehard clicker fan and rehabilitate aggressive/reactive dogs using the clicker and real positive reinforcement methodology, which is, contrary to popular opinion, not "ignore the bad, reward the good". That is a common misconception. Positive reinforcement should more appropriately be called +R/-P = positive reinforcement/negative punishment. Negative punishment does not equate to ignoring bad behavior; it means removing the desired stimulus to decrease an animal's behavior. The classic example of negative punishment involves ignoring (i.e. in the case of a dog jumping for attention), but that doesn't mean -P is about ignoring. It's about removing what drives a dog to behave badly in the first place. So if a dog bolts every time you open the door, you close the door, thereby removing what the dog desires and thereby decreasing the bad behavior. It isn't ignoring; it's just -P! =)

I don't believe in either extremes of training, and I think aggressive dogs need training balance. I think a person who is very well versed in non-physical forms of discipline (i.e. NILIF) and who is familiar with clicker training as a means of emotional/behavioral modification would be ideal.

As for structured socialization, this taps into my training preferences. I like using the Look at That game (coined by Leslie McDevitt of "Control Unleashed"). So, with a dog well-versed in LAT, I like working outside the dog park fence, using the dogs within the park as LAT objects. Once the "problem dog" is reliably playing LAT and is no longer interested in the triggers/glued to the handler, I will release the dog to go sniff the others through the fence for about ~5-10 seconds. Any longer will most likely push an aggressive/reactive dog over their threshold. Regain the dog's attention and repeat many times. This is what I mean by structured socialization. Dogs who "fly off the handle" need constant feedback to keep them below their thresholds, and I think techniques like this are imperative in socialization situations.

[bckrazy]

I'm sorry it's taken me so long to update... again. I have been really busy, and stressed out, over this situation. But I have read your posts and advice and I appreciate everyone's input and support.

I brought Jemima in to the SPCA yesterday. I know people in Pit Bull rescue, through Flyball, and none of them were able to find a foster for her. A few people were interested, but none of them could take in a possibly DA dog.

I feel so horrible. I will never, ever forget her little, confused face watching us leave.

I know a girl who volunteers at the front desk, and I went and talked to her to get some advice. She told me what to say to make sure they would take Jemima in (as far as the situation/where I found her/etc), and reassured me that they adopt out DA/DR dogs often. They only had a handful of dogs in at the time, and she said she was sure that Jemima would be adopted quickly, especially since she's soooo lovable and cuddly with everyone she meets. I would not have left her anywhere with a chance of being PTS, but I'm worried about the affect that going into a kennel and being abandoned again might have on her.

I had been keeping the dogs completely seperate, 24/7. I moved out of my huge house, with my family home all of the time, and a huge yard, and I now live in an apartment. It's a big apartment, but it's still MUCH more difficult to keep 3 dogs seperate. I was hanging out with Jemima out in the living room, and I had to check something in my room, so I cracked the door to peek in. All of a sudden, Jemima came up behind me, jammed her head into the crack and proceded to lunge/snap at Gonzo, who was standing in the doorway. I had to slam the door practically on her face to keep her from forcing it open. I worry so, so much because if anyone else did anything with Jemima, or with my dogs, and they accidentally met again I honestly don't know whether or not she would hurt them. And I can't exactly stay home all day, every day to ensure that there are no accidents.

I had been doing parallel walking with some one else to help from the get-go, and she was not leash reactive in the slightest. Which is why the whole issue with Fozzie really shocked me. I think there was a huge lack of dog socialization in her life, and I'm sure the time she has spent with other dogs has not been pleasant. I feel so bad for abandoning her, just like her owner did, but I was scared for my dogs and I could tell the situation was upsetting them. Both of them randomly had BAD gastro upsets, which have suddenly disappeared. I had really high hopes, judging by their first encounters, but it became apparent that her issues with other dogs were getting worse, and I am not capable of desensitizing/conditioning/training a DA dog while working with my dogs and keeping them seperate and maintaining everyone's sanity.

I'm going to be updated on Jemima's status, so I'll let you all know what happens. I have high hopes for her. Despite the issues with other dogs, she was a wonderful dog in practically every other way... she was looking beautiful already, she was well-mannered and gentle, and it did not take long at all for her to bond to me and my family and friends.

[caseysmom]

I also sent you a pm but just want to tell you again that you did the right thing. The SPCA is not like animal control, they do a good job of adopting dogs out.