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Thread: Dog Breeds -- Then and Now

  1. #1
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    Dog Breeds -- Then and Now

    I was just looking thru old posts, and found a thread from back in August on the Dog House board about Pedigree Dogs Exposed -- Pedigree Dogs Exposed

    But while reading thru the posts.. several people posted pictures of how certain dog breeds looked in the late 1800's to early 1900's... compared to how they look now. I am kind of a big history buff, I love to read about different historical events, then add my favorite thing ever into the mix -- dogs, and I also love to look up and read about different breeds history.... so I thought it might be interesting to have people post pictures of their breed(s) from how the looked 100 or more years ago compared to how they look now... and also talk a bit about what the breed was originally bred to do...

    Especially since there has been the talk in Europe of changing breed standards for the health of certain breeds...etc... While I am in TOTAL agreement about many breeds (GSD, Bulldogs, etc..) that they have been bred with extrem exagerations to the breed standards, and have totally changed from the way they used to look. However there are still many breeds that have been left relatively unchanged....

    One the thread "Pedigree dogs Exposed" Since other people have posted pictures of different breeds from the late 1800's to early 1900's, to compare to how the breeds look today, I thought I'd post some pictures of Collies.... honestly the change from then to now in American Collies, for the most part, the change as been very little. Yes, some of the dogs of today may have bigger coats, but grooming/nutrion and coat care is much different now than it was back then. Heads are still VERY similar today, as they were in the early 1900's... body style is pretty much the same... many of the dogs of yesterday could be competitive in the show ring today! Especially if they were groomed like they groom collies today!.. Tho Collies have changed a bit, for the most part they remain like they were in the late 1800's and early 1900's....


    Old Cockie -- believed to be the first Sable Collie -- born in 1867


    Cockie's Son "Trefoil" a tri-colour "Galway Collie" born in 1873 Ireland is the undisputed ancestor of all of today's Collies.

    All Collies, all over the world today, owe their inception to Ch. Trefoil who, whelped in 1873, and is behind every one of today's Collies. five generations from Trefoil comes Ch. Chirstopher (1887), and his two sons, Ch. Stracathro Ralph and the Edgbaston Marvel, all are traced to American Collie history today.


    CH Christopher - born 1887, was exported to
    the U.S. after being bred extensively in Britan.
    All Collies today trace back to this dog.



    GB & AM CH Wishaw Clicker - Born: 1898-1913.
    Imported from England into the US by J.P Morgan

    JP Morgan was a HUGE collie fancier and imported some of the best dogs from Europe into the US...


    GB CH Parbold Piccolo - Born: 1899
    Imported into the US in the early 1900's by J. I. Behling. The day of his arrival in the US his owner turned him loose to run in the yard, and he disappered and was never seen again. This was considered to be perhaps the greatest loss to the american collie fancy.


    GB CH Anfield Model - Born: 1902 - Scotland - son of Piccolo (above)
    Imported into the US in the early 1900's. He was one of the most higly touted dogs between 1900-1910. He was the ideal that many breeders were striving for in head and expression.


    Ch. Wellesbourne Conqueror", born 1895 - father to Piccolo, Grandfather of "Model" (above).
    a double great grandson of Christopher, was imported into the U.S, at the age of seven to become one of the instrumental sires in U.S. pedigrees.


    Ch Magnet" born in 1912, is often called the foundation sire of U.S. Collies. Imported from England at the age of nine,his impact was made on both U'S. and Brithish lines.


    "Ch Eden Emerald" born in 1922,
    was a grandson of Ch Magnet, and grandsire of Ch El Troubador Of Arken. Most Collies in England and the U.S. trace back to this prolific sire.
    If you're gonna breed Collies, don't you forget to breed in the brains and common sense. Without that you won't have a Collie, you'll have just another dog.



    I've Been BOO'd!!

  2. #2
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    "Ch Black Hawk Of Kasan" born in 1966
    was the first Smooth Collie to win Best In Show
    at the CCA National Specialty; first Smooth Collie to win an all breed Best In Show, and six times won Best Of Variety at the National


    "Ch Laund Lynne", born 1917 in England,

    This beautiful blue merle Smooth Collie would surely be competitive in today's show ring.
    She had no fewer than 95 Best In Show (or "Best Female In Show") wins and worked as a sheep and cattle herder. She retired from the show ring at the age of ten to successfully raise a liter of seven puppies.
    If you're gonna breed Collies, don't you forget to breed in the brains and common sense. Without that you won't have a Collie, you'll have just another dog.



    I've Been BOO'd!!

  3. #3
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    Now pictures of American Collies of today...




    "Lyra" Mjr Ptd Avondale Spiritwind Aurora - a bitch I bred and co-own.





    Now if you want to see the split between American and European Collies... now here are modern European Collies..

    The Collies of Europe are very different than those in the United States and Canada. Although the standard is nearly the same, the British type has changed radically. Some people say that during the first and second World Wars, fanciers from the US imported many of the best Collies from the United Kingdom, in order to keep the breed safe. England and most of Europe was under attack and breeders there feared for the lives of their dogs. At that time, the Collie looked just about the same as those in the US today. We used them to our best advantage in American breeding programs, with the idea that one day Great Britain and Europe would want their foundation stock back.

    However, exporting those foundations was a nightmare, as mandatory quarantines of six months and longer hampered the willingness of both the Americans and the British breeders to subject their dogs to such lengthy confinements in a government kennel. So, the UK rebuilt upon the stock that remained in their country. They also found eager fanciers in Europe, since exportation was much less costly from Britain rather than the Americas. The “new” Collie of the British and European communities was a far cry in quality, temperament, type, and structure, and continues in this pattern even today.

    I'm not totally sure I agree with this though, because if you look back at pictures European Collies in the 60's and 70's the Collies looked much more like American Collies than the European Collies of today do...

    Today, since importing dogs into Europe is much eaiser to do, its getting more and more common for European breeders to import dogs from the US.

    Some of the current winning dogs in Europe....






    Their particular complaints about what is available and winning is fairly obvious to the American collie breeder eye: short, square heads with deep stops, faces that look like the Chow-Chow rather than the Collie; low ears, slanted rather than almond shaped eyes, snipey muzzles, lack of underjaw and finish, very clearly lacking in bone and size and, what you can’t see, horrific temperaments. Remember, the dogs pictured above are ALL current European Champions. Structure has been damaged as well. Most of the European Collies are extremely short backed, with straight fronts and rears, no neck, short, gay tails, and cow hocks. Consequently, the movement suffers with so many problems. The European Collie is ill-equipped to do the work for which it was originally bred... not to mention the HUGE open, soft coats that do not properly protect the Collie. People think American Collies have big coats.. their coats are NOTHING compared to the European Collie.


    Russian Collie


    Another Russian Collie




    European Collies
    If you're gonna breed Collies, don't you forget to breed in the brains and common sense. Without that you won't have a Collie, you'll have just another dog.



    I've Been BOO'd!!

  4. #4
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    What a cool thread! I had no idea Collies were so fluffy over seas! I thought ours had a lot of coat. Thanks for sharing!
    Owned by two little pastries!


    REST IN PEACE GRACIE. NOT A DAY GOES BY THAT I DON'T MISS YOU.

  5. #5
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    Very interesting thread.

  6. #6
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    I need to scan some early pictures from my Dal book, but here are some more notable ones. I personally think this breed has improved a lot since the early 20th century. I think some of the best dogs, judging from photographs, came from the mid 20th century.

    I'll update later with better pictures, of dogs I like and don't like. For now, here are some random ones.

    Ch. Tally Ho Last of Sunstar (BOB Nat'l Specialty 1931)


    Ch. Tally Ho Sirius (BOB Nat'l Specialty 1939)


    CH Korcula Midnight Star
    Bret D


    Ch. Merry Go Round Mach Ten (Top winner from a few years ago)


    Ch. TCJ Satins Star Appeal (Top winning dal of today, I like him and I've seen him show a few times)


    Ch. Panore of Watseka (b. 1969)


    Ch. Fireman's Freckled Friend (Don't like him as much)


    Ch. Lord Jim (very winning and a popular stud choice of the time. I think he looks way too hound like, which is more apparent in other photos I've seen of him)
    http://www.jlsdals.com/LordJim.html

    Niño & Eliza



  7. #7
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    Who knew Basset Hounds used to actually be cute and were not cursed with all that saggy skin?

    1870's


    Today



    Pugs used to be cute, too! I can't find any photos, but they used to have faces.


    "Did you ever notice when you blow in a dog's face he gets mad at you?
    But when you take him in a car he sticks his head out the window." -- Steve Bluestone

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC_MoM View Post
    Who knew Basset Hounds used to actually be cute and were not cursed with all that saggy skin?

    1870's


    Today



    Pugs used to be cute, too! I can't find any photos, but they used to have faces.
    All dogs are cute imho, even pugs and bassets.
    don't breed or buy while shelter dogs die....

    I have been frosted!

    Thanks Kfamr for the signature!


  9. #9
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    They aren't cute when the way they are bred today causes them to have serious health issues.


    "Did you ever notice when you blow in a dog's face he gets mad at you?
    But when you take him in a car he sticks his head out the window." -- Steve Bluestone

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lute View Post
    What a cool thread! I had no idea Collies were so fluffy over seas! I thought ours had a lot of coat. Thanks for sharing!

    Yep.. I am on a couple Collie breeder forums, much like this place, but they are both based in Europe, so very few people on the forum are from North America.

    But the "lack" of coat the american collies have compared to the European collies, is one of the biggest complaints the european breeders have with our dogs... they don't think they have enough coat. I personally could not deal with the coat on a european collie...

    Also, another thing pretty much north america is the only place that breeds roughs and smooths together anymore... they used to allow it in europe up until I think the 80's?? then it was changed and they split them off as 2 seperate breeds... so the people on that forum were rather concerned when I posted pics of rough and smooth puppies from the same litter LOL they didn't understand why I would do such a thing LOL

    I'll try to find a picture of a European smooth.. they look MUCH more like American smooths.... heads might be slightly different but the size and body structure is very similar smooths over here.. they tend to have pretty solid bodies... completely different from their roughs, even though the standards are the same, except for coat...
    If you're gonna breed Collies, don't you forget to breed in the brains and common sense. Without that you won't have a Collie, you'll have just another dog.



    I've Been BOO'd!!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suki Wingy View Post
    I need to scan some early pictures from my Dal book, but here are some more notable ones. I personally think this breed has improved a lot since the early 20th century. I think some of the best dogs, judging from photographs, came from the mid 20th century.
    Very interesting bout the Dals! I do not know anything about the breed, but just based on pictures it seems they haven't changed to much over the years...

    Will be interested to see the other pictures you post later...
    If you're gonna breed Collies, don't you forget to breed in the brains and common sense. Without that you won't have a Collie, you'll have just another dog.



    I've Been BOO'd!!

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiritwind View Post
    Yep.. I am on a couple Collie breeder forums, much like this place, but they are both based in Europe, so very few people on the forum are from North America.

    But the "lack" of coat the american collies have compared to the European collies, is one of the biggest complaints the european breeders have with our dogs... they don't think they have enough coat. I personally could not deal with the coat on a european collie...

    Also, another thing pretty much north america is the only place that breeds roughs and smooths together anymore... they used to allow it in europe up until I think the 80's?? then it was changed and they split them off as 2 seperate breeds... so the people on that forum were rather concerned when I posted pics of rough and smooth puppies from the same litter LOL they didn't understand why I would do such a thing LOL

    I'll try to find a picture of a European smooth.. they look MUCH more like American smooths.... heads might be slightly different but the size and body structure is very similar smooths over here.. they tend to have pretty solid bodies... completely different from their roughs, even though the standards are the same, except for coat...
    Why did they rule out breeding smooths and roughs together? Did it cause less coat? That would explain our less coated collies in North America.


    One breed I have found that has really changed over the years is the German Shepherd Dog. I think it is sickening and wrong the way they bred their rears the way they do now.





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    REST IN PEACE GRACIE. NOT A DAY GOES BY THAT I DON'T MISS YOU.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by lute View Post
    Why did they rule out breeding smooths and roughs together? Did it cause less coat? That would explain our less coated collies in North America.


    One breed I have found that has really changed over the years is the German Shepherd Dog. I think it is sickening and wrong the way they bred their rears the way they do now.
    I honestly have no idea why the split roughs and smooths up into 2 seperate breeds. Its really very odd in my opinion, especially since the 2 standards are the same, except for coat and the european smooths are nothing close to a short haired version of a european rough these days.

    Most people really don't feel breeding roughs to smooths affects the coat. There are certain bloodlines in american collies that for atleast the last 50 yrs have only bred roughs (Tartanside collies come to mind).. pure tartanside lines are all roughs and they still don't carry the coat the european dogs do.

    Now there are some families in certain American lines that breeders call "Fluffies" and they are typically (thought not always) collies with big, fluffy, soft coats.. which is very incorrect, but still not the same amount of coat the collies over seas have. A rough collie should not have a soft coat!... the european roughs coat is very incorrect... its very soft, open, and fluffy.. it does not keep water off their bodies, instead the soft coat just soaks water up...

    I totally agree with you on the GSD! I hate to see the GSD at shows try to walk... I think its very wrong!..
    If you're gonna breed Collies, don't you forget to breed in the brains and common sense. Without that you won't have a Collie, you'll have just another dog.



    I've Been BOO'd!!

  14. #14
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    I agree with you, Lute, about the GSD. I really didn't notice how horrible it was until I saw Pedigree Dogs Exposed. Now every time I see a GSD like that, I want to be sick.


    "Did you ever notice when you blow in a dog's face he gets mad at you?
    But when you take him in a car he sticks his head out the window." -- Steve Bluestone

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC_MoM View Post
    I agree with you, Lute, about the GSD. I really didn't notice how horrible it was until I saw Pedigree Dogs Exposed. Now every time I see a GSD like that, I want to be sick.
    What is this Pedigree Dogs Exposed??? I looked it up and found some on it. I can't seem to find the video though.
    Owned by two little pastries!


    REST IN PEACE GRACIE. NOT A DAY GOES BY THAT I DON'T MISS YOU.

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