Dog Whisperer this past Saturday

[symphony]

There were some interesting techniques, but do you think we, as 'regular' people can duplicate his techniques?


And train our dogs so quickly!

Symphony
www.beginningdogtraining.com

[lizbud]

There were some interesting techniques, but do you think we, as 'regular' people can duplicate his techniques?


And train our dogs so quickly!

Symphony
www.beginningdogtraining.com

He always says that he trains people, not the dogs, and I believe he does.

[bckrazy]

There were some interesting techniques, but do you think we, as 'regular' people can duplicate his techniques?


And train our dogs so quickly!

Symphony
www.beginningdogtraining.com

Absolutely not.
And I do not feel that he, himself, executes the vast majority of his "techniques" in a safe or effective manner, either.

The bottom line is... HUMANS are not WOLVES, or DOGS. Cesar's attempts to emulate wolf behavior, through his own skewed perception, often fails miserably. There are many accounts of dogs that Cesar "treated" attacking their owners when they tried to apply the same techniques, and still many of Cesar being attacked while in the "training" process. The fact that his show encourages people at home to physically challenge their dogs (often dogs with real, serious behavior problems) is simply moronic and dangerous.

Cesar does not train dogs quickly. That is what they call the magic of television. Furthermore, the dogs that he claims are being "calm/submissive" are actually shutting down; their behavior has not been turned around, they have simply stopped functioning and ceased doing anything, out of fear. There is no instant gratification microwave for dog training. It takes a lot of understanding, time, reinforcement, consistency, and conditioning. And it is a lifelong process, not a 30-minute process.

Here are some really great links, from CERTIFIED behaviorists (of which Cesar is not):

http://4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
http://www.urbandawgs.com/luescher_millan.html
http://www.marinij.com/homeandgarden/ci_4720342
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...MGPHL9D1N1.DTL
http://www.animalbehaviorassociates....ader_myths.pdf

[Giselle]

Erika/Bckrazy, thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!!!

If the above barrage of links doesn't convince you, here's a book review of "Cesar's Way" written by a veterinarian for the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...r%20review.pdf

The American Veterinary Medical Associations take on Cesar's endorsement of compulsion training methods:
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/feb08/080215l.asp

AVSAB's take on the pitfalls of punishment:
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonli...sk=view&id=118

Bottom line: Domesticated dogs are NOT wolves. DOGS act more like extremely immature/juvenile wolves more than the coherent, stable pack of mature adults that Cesar would like you to believe. Dogs bark a LOT, whine a LOT, furiously wag their tails, etc. etc. - all behaviors that mature wolves do not regularly display.

The dominance myth has really been distorted to an absurd point. There are common arguments that claim something as mundane as a jumping puppy will turn into a dominant adult. So, then, how does one explain a jumping puppy's lip licking, whining, held back ears, etc.? If one has ever seen a band of puppies approach an older dog, the puppies will perform these behaviors while simultaneously *licking the other dog's lips*. As chance would have it, HUMAN lips are taller than the average puppy. Ergo, the puppy must jump to reach. It's not dominance. It's perfectly normal dog behavior. But somehow, we repudiate normal DOG behavior and instead substitute it with our skewed view of "acceptable" WOLF behavior.

So why is Cesar seemingly "effective"? The answer is that, whether we'd like to admit it or not, punishment often works to suppress behavior. If you hit (or, as Cesar likes to put it, "assertively touch") a dog every time he approaches a bone, that dog will learn to avoid the bone to avoid the punishment. He doesn't learn self-control. He learns FEAR. Punishment works to suppress behavior. But in and of itself, punishment is no substitution for behavioral modification, and punishment must be used only by those who know how and when to use it. And nobody should use the level of punishment that Cesar uses.

[shepgirl]

I agree with BCKRAZY on this one. Ceasar is not my kind of trainer, and the off the scene stuff people don't see would surprise most of the people who think he's so wonderful. I personally do not like him or his methods. I find him unsympathetic and even borders on cruel to animals. I see no respect coming from the dogs, only fear.

[bckrazy]

I knew you would show up with a fantastic post, Sophie.

I definitely agree with you, and shepgirl, that fear-based "training" is NOT going to produce a stable or reliable dog... ever. Any animal acting on fear is going to be unpredictable, erratic, and depending on how far that animal is pushed and where their breaking point is, will often lash out to protect themselves.

What's sad is the untold number of well-meaning owners and their dogs who have suffered because of the gospel that Cesar preaches. On another forum just last week, a woman's hand was bitten and her dog was PUT TO SLEEP, because she physically challenged him while he was guarding food... "like Cesar does"!

Instead of a .1-second, bottom-of-the-screen, miniscule "do not try this at home" warning before The Dog Whisperer... there should be a "DO NOT WATCH THIS CRAP" warning. D:

[lizbud]

I really think people confuse assertivness with dominance. It's not the
same thing at all. The "pack leader" has no need to remind the "pack" who
is in charge.

[Aston]

Cesar have a natural born good thing and this is an important factor in dog training: a calm and fearless approach. Apart from this I don´t appreciate or approve his training methods. Problematic dogs need to be corrected with love and reward based technics and not by fear. If a dog is corrected using the fear factor, he will almost all the times come back to his problematic behaviour.

[Emma<3Beth]

sorry if i cause an up roar but ummm.... I love the dog whisperer .

The things he does with dogs are amazing and i use what he says with my own dogs. I NEVER hit my dogs but i will touch the dog to snap it out of the bad behaviour.
A lot of dogs he works with are agressive and he has to be firm. If a Pit or Rottie want to get something you have to be firm.


I watched a episode a few night back and he did nothing but praise the dog. I dont always see the dominace thing but alot of it makes sense to me.

But every person to there own i guess.

it is correct that tv does distort(sp*) alot of things and it probably does take a lot longer to train a dog than it is shown.

[shepgirl]

He's not my type of trainer. I just don't like the cold look in his eyes and I find he has no empathy for any dog he works with.
He seems to be on some kind of ego trip , he doesn't really assert himself, he dominates and does not do it kindly.
Some like him , some don't.

[Giselle]

I absolutely 110% disagree when people justify utilizing the extreme forms of the "dominance theory" (i.e. alpha rolls and "assertive touches", i.e. forcefully hitting the dog) because the dog is reactive or aggressive.

Cesar is "amazing" because he uses positive punishment. Punishment has instant results because it suppresses behavior. Dog growls. Hit. Dog growls again. Alpha roll. Dog stops growling. Is that amazing? Or is that disturbing? What is amazing to me is that people still believe in this stuff, when modern psychology and decades of research and behavioral modification have taught us that there are far more effective methods of long term rehabilitation of reactive and aggressive dogs.

A lot of dogs he works with are agressive and he has to be firm. If a Pit or Rottie want to get something you have to be firm.

As you can see from my siggie, I have a Doberman girl. She is strong, she is willful, she is energetic, and high drive/high pain tolerance. Surprise, surprise, she is also extremely reactive. I do not and never will "dominate" her in the way that Cesar advocates. The basis of Cesar's attitude towards aggressive dogs is that they're trying to assume the alpha role. In other words, they're trying to assert their dominance over the human by taking control of the environment and resources. Uh huh. Right. So, why does my 100%-positive-reinforcement-trained dog do this by herself?

That, folks, is a completely UNtrained behavior. I have NEVER taught Ivy this behavior; it's completely natural. So, tell me again, why does my dog react? Because she's dominant? Really??? Am I really supposed to believe that?

Bottom line: Not all "bad" behaviors stem from inadequate leadership, as Cesar would like us to believe. THAT is my major gripe with him.

[lizbud]

Well, to each his own I guess, but I admire Cesar's remarkable talent
with all dogs he meets. I certainly do not see cruel or uneven treatment
with any dog he's working with & no fear in any of the dogs.IMO.

[Emma<3Beth]

Hi lizbud you seem to share my opinion.

I guess it all depends on the dog and the person.

Giselle i like you dog seems like a sweety I was referrring to the agressive dogs that want to kill things our Dane cross(RIP) wanted to kill and i had to be firm good snap of the chain and she settled.

[Giselle]

Giselle i like you dog seems like a sweety I was referrring to the agressive dogs that want to kill things our Dane cross(RIP) wanted to kill and i had to be firm good snap of the chain and she settled.

Like I said, Ivy is extremely reactive. She has attacked and, if put in a 'bad' situation, she would attack again. Would she kill? Probably. If I hadn't been there to pull her off our classmate's dog, I'm sure she would have inflicted serious damage. Ivy's aggression is not normal, and I treat her aggression as a psychological and medical problem. It is most certainly NOT a dominance problem, as CM so adamantly asserts with his aggressive and reactive clients.

[Emma<3Beth]

she submitted to you right.

Yes not everything is realted to a dog being dominate. But You did use the same sort of principal with your dog.

when she reacted badly you stayed "Calm and assetive" and placed her in a submissive position on the floor till she settled.

it is the same thing CM(like the abbreviation) does with the dogs he works with. You did seem less forcefull i will admit.