Skya the chicken

[wolf_Q]

Skya has always been a pretty timid puppy...but she's getting progressively worse. She's really friendly with me, my mom, and she's not too scared of a couple of my co-workers and my dad. Well, she's just now getting to where she'll somewhat come up to my dad, with my co-workers she'll timidly approach them and lick their fingers and she'll be okay if they are holding her.

Complete strangers she won't get near. If she's on a leash she pulls in the opposite direction or hides behind me. If I'm holding her and they try to pet her she turns her head away and pushes them away with her paws. She's never had a bad experience with anyone. I've honestly tried to socialize her really well, I've been taking her to work/out on walks/walking around in pet stores since I've had her. I've tried to have strangers give her treats but she won't take them, even really good treats like people food that she loves. She won't even take treats if I'm giving them to her when she's scared.

We have some wire crates out in the grooming area of my work and if I put her in that she is totally fine. People can walk in and out of the salon, near the crate, etc. and she doesn't act afraid. But when I walk her through the store she's afraid of everyone. I had some friends over at my house last night and she wouldn't go up to either of them, she's met them a couple of times too. She did let them hold her if I handed her to them. My brother and his family are at my house today, she's never met them...and she's absolutely terrified. She took one look at my brother and ran behind the couch. She wouldn't let him hold her she squirmed and pushed him away.

She's never acted aggressively in anyway, just scared. Nebo was very similar to this as a young dog as well, though he would at least take treats from people. I don't think he started being friendly toward strangers (he was never aggressive either, just scared, he didn't want strangers petting him) until he was a few years old...he's actually usually really friendly to strangers now. Keva was never this way, with the exception of a few select people she barks at, she's VERY friendly. Skya starts puppy class next Thursday, I hope that will help. She's 4 months old now, I would have had her in it sooner but our trainer quit so there wasn't anyone to teach the classes. I'm just wondering if anyone has advice to help get her over this, or at least have her not be as scared?

[Giselle]

How do you react when Skya gets nervous? I noticed that you or somebody else will hold her a lot. I'm wondering if the constant holding is reinforcing her fear.

Do you do any "leadership" stuff? Not like scruff shakes or anything (DoG knows I'm extremely against compulsion training), but NILIF? If Skya is to get over her fear, she has to build confidence and I think having a lot of confidence in you is going to help her build confidence in other people, too.

In terms of puppy socialization windows, it's closing at around 4 months and it's normal for her to start getting more weary. However, to counteract that, I would just take her out to a higher-stress environment where you know she's a little out of her comfort zone and just sit there. She has to learn how to acclimate and learn coping skills. To encourage relaxation, you can start massaging her when she starts to acclimate to the environment and slowly feed her *scrumptious* treats. Once she's giving in to your touch and is clearly relaxed, have a stooge person walk slowly and drop a treat by her. Do not have the person approach or look Skya in the eyes. It's just classic DS and CC. She's young, so I don't think she needs any serious behavioral modification. Just DS and CC will do her a lot of good

[wolf_Q]

She's not held all the time...its just when she's at work and one of my co-workers wants to see her she's in a kennel and they have to pick her up to get her out of the kennel (if she's in upper kennel...its in a grooming salon...if she's in a lower kennel she'll walk out of it). When anyone (including me) tries to get her out of a top kennel she wags her tail like she wants to see you but scrunches herself all the way to the back so you have to reach in and pull her out...she's been like that since day one. I don't try to pick her up when she gets scared, but I have a couple of times because she was pulling to get away so much I thought she was going to get out of her collar. Also I have picked her so people could pet her since they can't get near her since she's running away...probably shouldn't have done that...but its just been with people that are my friends that came to my work to see her, hard to see her when she's acting like that.

I mentioned her being held by my friends/brother because they all asked to hold her...cute puppy they can't resist picking up (until they try that is and she pushes them away ). Generally I just stand there if people are wanting to see her...she'll run from them so I'll tell them she's scared and they usually understand and just talk to her/me about her, or if we're walking through the store and she gets scared I keep walking. Really trying not to coddle her I know that doesn't help it just reinforces it. I do talk to her sometimes though...tell her she's fine (not in a "baby talk" voice...normal voice).

If my understanding of NILIF is correct I think I have done some of that. We always make her sit (or shake, or down) for treats. When we play fetch I make her sit before I throw the toy. I've been working on "wait" so I can have her sit and wait before going out the door but she hasn't quite figured out that concept yet.

She has obvious "comfort zones." When she goes to work with me she is comfortable in the car, jumps right in. Once we get out of the car she drags me into the store (parking lot scares her)...then she heads straight for the grooming area (the rest of the store scares her). Once she's in the grooming area she relaxes and isn't nearly as skittish. Once we leave the store she heads straight for my car, she knows which one it is too...wants right back in. I think the class will help, she'll be in the regular area of the store, definitely out of her comfort zone. I'll do what you said and work in getting her to relax out of comfort zone...maybe cheese will do the trick, she loves that. Though I tried to give her a piece today, in my house, while we had visitors and she wouldn't touch it, she ate treats after they left but not while they were here.

[Cinder & Smoke]

SmokeMutt arrived on our front porch as a BADLY Abused (by a GUY) pup who had
NO use for MALE Hoomins - myself included for the first few days.

Within a few months his circle of friends expanded to a total of FIVE males:
* ME (finally)
* Unka Pat
* Doc Mike
* Firefighter Donny
* Findlay's Mr. Ralph (Amy's Hubby)

* And if he could ID a GIRL as not being a guy - ALL Girls were A-OK!
(He had a tuff tyme with girls in pants or jeans, and with short hair.)

He was two years old before he'd accept attention from "strange" men.
He was never mean nor aggressive - just Very Fearful - he'd do his best to pull as
far away from a stranger as he could get - even though usually Y-d to Cinder -
making a real escape impossible.

HOPEfully it won't take Skya THAT long to soften up to strangers - just
keep working on her fear withou being 'pushy' and trying to force her to accept
attention from a person she seems to fear.

Good Luck to both of you!

[Ginger's Mom]

Good luck, Amy. I don't have any ideas for you. I have a genetically timid dog. She did fine in her first series of puppy classes, however, after that was too stressful she would drool all over herself and only let myself and the trainer (same trainer from first set of classes) touch her. She hates going to PetsMart, but she is fine at the park where she can run free and play with the other dogs. We stayed with my Dad for five weeks after he had open heart surgery. Five weeks and she still will not let him touch her. However, we have found things she likes and can do. We took agility classes together, which Ginger loved, and as I said letting her go to the park and run free and play with the other pups makes her very happy.

One of the reasons I got Taz, was to give Ginger more confidence while walking around the neighborhood. She doesn't like walking in a lot of areas because dogs bark at her and scare her. But if we are with another dog she is happy to follow them. So one of the reasons I decided to adopt another dog was to help Ginger build confidence in walking around the neighborhood. It is now easier to walk her. We will see what happens when it is dark when I get home from work, but I have a feeling that it will still be somewhat easier now that she has Taz to show her that it is not that scary. If Skya is more attached to one of the other dogs, try taking her and that dog (Keva?) out together and letting that dog show her how to accept attention. You are right, treats don't work when a dog is stressed, but maybe another dog will.

Good luck and please let me know how you make out. I have had Ginger read by two pet communicators about her anxiety issues, and both have told me the same thing. She was born that way, it is not something I can train out of her, it isn't a learned behavior to a certain stimulus. So whether you do or do not have any luck getting Skya to be more accepting of strangers just let me say, you will still find many things you can do together that will bring joy to both her and you.

[Aspen and Misty]

I may be able to help you...

Sitka as I've sorta talked about before is terrified of people. To the point that when I first got her she shut down completely when we were around. After about a month of being with her she began to trust me but if she thought someone else was in the house she would hide under the coffee table and not come out for the rest of the evening. I will do want you to know one thing before I tell you what I did with Sikta…she is an extreme case. She will never be a "normal" dog, she will never trust strangers and she will never be the kind of dog that enjoys attention from people, not even from me. She is probably the worst situation of fearful you could get and I’m not saying that because she is my dog, I’m saying that because she is literally terrified of people.

It took about a month till I was 100% sure she trusted me because you can't start off with a dog that doesn't trust at least you. I started by walking her outside late at night when I knew no one else was out. This helped to build her confidence in herself and in me. I walked her in a heel position, she was not allowed enough leash to act crazy, run away or to hide behind me. Eventually we went out around mid-day when I knew we might meet 1 or 2 people tops. When we walked past these people I stood tall, looked straight and just kept walking no matter what she did. She was again in the heel position and not given much lead and on a slip lead (like the kind I'm sure you use at your grooming salon). If she tried to run away, hide behind me or just act crazy I gave a gentle "pop" of the leash and just kept walking. It took a few times of doing this but she eventually got used to walking by people and eventually it got to the point where we could walk past people 6 feet away with no reaction from her except for her to stare at them. In my house I no longer allowed her to hide when people came over. I put her on a slip leash and made her come near the person she was scared of. I would start off across the room from the person, when she gave me the sign that she was comfortable, we moved closer until eventually we were sitting next to the person. Eventually I would ask the person to reach out and pet her. I told them not to hesitate but to just act as if she was any other dog and just be confident in petting her. By doing this she overcame her fear of my 2 brothers and my brothers girl friend. When Sitka and I are out I will not let just anyone pet her. I have learned to read her body language and listen to what she is telling me. Sometimes she is just to upset by a person that if the person reaches out to pet her she will have diarrhea on the spot and then for the next few hours afterwards. Obviously those are not the kind of situations I want her to associate with new people so we avoid them. I have simply said to people the same thing you do “that she is terrified of people” and they always understand, back away and then just talk to me about her. Sometimes she seems to be ok with a person and I will ask them to confidently pet her. If the person acts scared or upset by her behavior I will NOT allow them to pet her. I know that in order for her to feel safe with someone they have to act the right way otherwise the experience becomes negative instead of positive. I find the whole key to her progressing is by not allowing her to be crazy, hide behind me or act like a wild thing. She is always kept on a short leash and under my complete control. When she starts to get out of control I start walking, give her a pop and just ignore her. Trust me, it works! Now don't get me wrong just today she went insane because someone walked past us shouting at their kid to "get back here" and Sitka had her leash wrapped around my legs so fast I didn't know what happened! LOL. However, in most cases I just stay calm, collected and in charge and it works.

I won't lie to you, even 4 months later Sitka is still a big chicken and does not like strangers, but she is so much better then she was 4 months ago! I think you know that Sitka, Nova, Konnor and I are on a 10 day voyage to Alaska. Proof to this method of "training" is the fact that Sitka, who stays in the car while on the ferry, will come out of hiding and sit in the passengers side seat and look out at people as they walk by...as long as they stay about 8 feet away from her . However, the point is I never thought I would see the day when Sitka would do the things she does now, I really think eventually she may accept people that come around a lot. All I can say is that while Skya is little you will want to fix the issue. It’s a lot easier to deal with a 30 pound upset dog then a 65 pound upset dog!

Ashley

[Cinder & Smoke]

HEY Ashley ~~

I think you know that Sitka, Nova, Konnor and I are on a 10 day voyage to Alaska.

Not sure which threads you've been reading ... so here goes again >>>

Are you planning to *stop* in Whitehorse, Yukon Territories, Canada,
for a *howdie* with Glacier at the Husky Ranch?

Or ar you "voyaging" up the coast on a Ferry/Cruise Ship rather than the highway?

[Aspen and Misty]

Not sure which threads you've been reading ... so here goes again >>>

Are you planning to *stop* in Whitehorse, Yukon Territories, Canada,
for a *howdie* with Glacier at the Husky Ranch?

Or ar you "voyaging" up the coast on a Ferry/Cruise Ship rather than the highway?

I'm on the ferry right now Phred! lol. This ferry trip has been 4 days long . My poor pups are downstairs on the car deck but they seem to be doing ok with all of this. I'm still hoping to one day make a trip up to see Glacier or her make a trip down. From what I understand she comes to Haines sometimes for vacation

Thanks for asking!

Ashley

[Giselle]

My suggestion is just DS and CC then. Put her in a position where she's comfortable (i.e. in your car or in the grooming area) and have a stooge person walk by and drop a *really* scrumptious treat by her. Don't have them stop. Don't let them touch her or look at her. Their only purpose is to walk by and drop a treat. (By the way, what types of treats have you used and is Skya usually hungry when you try to train her?)

Repeat the above enough times with enough people so that she eventually learns to associate strangers with delicious treats being dropped into her furry little paws Eventually, you can work in closer proximity with the people and start moving it to higher stress situations. The obedience class should help, but I wonder if the stress will hinder her learning ability. I would work on desensitization and counter-conditioning now and use class as just a supplement. She's young and her mind is so pliable. She should make it through with flying colors.

[bckrazy]

I agree with Sophie... as always. You are the bomb, girl.

EVERY fearful dog has a theshold. While Skya might not be uncomfortable taking treats from a person's hand who is 2 feet away, she might be perfectly fine if that person is tossing them from 10 feet away. Find a point where she isn't acting nervous or fearful, give her tons of praise and treats for it, and progress slowly until she can take treats from the strangers hand. You might also start clicker training and incorperating that... it helped me A LOT with desensitizing/conditioning Gonzo. It's important that you allow her to approach people at her own pace, rather than forcing her on them, as frustrating as it is to make people wait. I know it's hard, and you feel bad, but it is much better to have a dog that is confident and happy to greet people, rather than one that must be forced to greet people.

I'm sure Skya will overcome her fears. She's lucky she has such a dedicated Mommy. Here are a few good links you might want to browse:

http://www.fearfuldogs.com/index.html

http://www.animalfarmfoundation.org/...26&item=192%20
(this is good for both aroused and fearful dogs)

http://www.responsibledog.net/helplessness.html
(a fantastic article regarding restraining/forcing something unpleasant on a fearful dog... of course, it's to the extreme, but it's interesting)

[wolf_Q]

Just a little update on Skya...

On Tuesday we had a dog party for Keva's birthday at my house. There were about 10 people and 11 dogs in my backyard. She did fine with all the dogs. I had some pieces of turkey hot dogs and I told people to give her some. She ran away and hid from everyone at first, but by the end she had taken treats from most everyone. Some of my friend's husbands were there too and she was more afraid of the men, she didn't want to take the treats from them, but she took treats out of the women's hands. She stayed off the deck because thats where the majority of people were but later when several people left she ventured onto the deck and sniffed some people.

We went to the first puppy class tonight. A couple of my co-workers tried to pet her in the parking lot and she wouldn't go near them or eat a treat tossed to her. But she did much better in the store during the class. At first she hid under the chair, but after some coaxing she came out and spent the rest of the time laying by my feet. Not acting stressed or bolting away from people, just laying there. The trainer is a guy and she wouldn't take a treat from his hand at first but a little later she ate several treats out of his hand and would venture close to him for the treat...not all the way up to him and she wasn't too keen on him petting her, but much better than she usually is with strangers, men especially. The other dog in the class is a 60 lb 7 month old lab, he was with a woman and a younger girl. She let both of them pet her while she was laying by my feet and took treats from the girl's hand. She was a little bit of a brat with the dog though. Well when they first met she was super friendly and was trying to lick his face. But he kept wanting to play with her and she didn't want to so she snapped at him a couple of times...not real snaps, she didn't even make a noise, just more of a "hey get out of my face" thing. That's a Nebo move. Overall I think it went well. I'll keep updating this thread with her progress.

[Giselle]

Just a note: because her confidence is pretty fragile, I wouldn't encourage people to pet her yet, especially not on the head. If they have to touch her, I'd probably have them run a hand over her back while *you* feed her. That way, she doesn't feel so vulnerable.

Sounds like excellent progress, though!