Dog Breeds -- Then and Now

[cassiesmom]

Spiritwind, what an interesting thread you started! I went through it quickly but I will come back and read it carefully. I didn't know about the long history of breeding collies or that they have different looks in Europe.

I agree with the point that Lute made about the GSD. My mom and I were watching a dog show on the Animal Planet and when the GSD came on, we said to each other "What is wrong with that dog's hips?" We guessed (obviously wrong) that the dog couldn't straighten up.

[So-Crafty]

I honestly have no idea why the split roughs and smooths up into 2 seperate breeds. Its really very odd in my opinion, especially since the 2 standards are the same, except for coat and the european smooths are nothing close to a short haired version of a european rough these days.

Most people really don't feel breeding roughs to smooths affects the coat. There are certain bloodlines in american collies that for atleast the last 50 yrs have only bred roughs (Tartanside collies come to mind).. pure tartanside lines are all roughs and they still don't carry the coat the european dogs do.

Now there are some families in certain American lines that breeders call "Fluffies" and they are typically (thought not always) collies with big, fluffy, soft coats.. which is very incorrect, but still not the same amount of coat the collies over seas have. A rough collie should not have a soft coat!... the european roughs coat is very incorrect... its very soft, open, and fluffy.. it does not keep water off their bodies, instead the soft coat just soaks water up...

I actually just did an essay on this for my English Comp class. From what I understood, people have stated that the Smooths and the Roughs have different personality types and the fact that the workload between the two different coats was different. Smooths were used as drovers and Roughs were used as pastoral guardians. This being said, people felt that there was a large divide between the two varieties that they decided to split them up. Personally, I think this narrowed the gene pool even more and will eventually do more harm than good in the Collie. In all actuality, from what I read it is the ROUGH coat that is recessive to the Smooth coat - if you breed two Roughs together you'll get 100% Roughs, but if you breed 2 Smooths together and they both have the same recessive Rough trait, you may wind up with a few Roughs in your smooth litter.

The European Collies seem to have been outcrossed at one point to a Chow Chow - I do not like the look of them at all. I think that they have too big of a stop and that coat looks neither functional or very easy to maintain. The function of the coat is important, to keep both heat and cold and whisk moisture away while they are doing the job they were bred to do. I prefer the American Collie vs the European Collie anyday.

Now...on to a breed that has changed drastically over the years.
American Cocker - Red Brucie circa 1921


Black/White Parti



Can you honestly tell me where in that second photo, it matches the AKC description of a moderately coated dog?

[Giselle]

What is this Pedigree Dogs Exposed??? I looked it up and found some on it. I can't seem to find the video though.

Original thread with before and after pics of various dog breeds:
http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=145435

[Spiritwind]

From what I understood, people have stated that the Smooths and the Roughs have different personality types and the fact that the workload between the two different coats was different. Smooths were used as drovers and Roughs were used as pastoral guardians. This being said, people felt that there was a large divide between the two varieties that they decided to split them up. Personally, I think this narrowed the gene pool even more and will eventually do more harm than good in the Collie. In all actuality, from what I read it is the ROUGH coat that is recessive to the Smooth coat - if you breed two Roughs together you'll get 100% Roughs, but if you breed 2 Smooths together and they both have the same recessive Rough trait, you may wind up with a few Roughs in your smooth litter.

The European Collies seem to have been outcrossed at one point to a Chow Chow - I do not like the look of them at all. I think that they have too big of a stop and that coat looks neither functional or very easy to maintain. The function of the coat is important, to keep both heat and cold and whisk moisture away while they are doing the job they were bred to do. I prefer the American Collie vs the European Collie anyday.

I have heard many people claim that roughs and smooths have different personalities, and honestly I have not seen it. I think its more of different personalities based on the individual dog rather than rough vs. smooth. If smooth collies had the kind of temperament over a rough that some people say, a smooth would have been a much better guardian dog than a rough.... Collies in general were just an all around farm dog. Rough or smooth, they all did herding, guarding, droving whatever they were asked to do. Besides that, the split between the rough and smooth collies in europe was done fairly recently in terms of Collie history... just within the last couple decades.

The below text is from this website: Collie Breed History

A point of interest here is that the mother of Ch Christopher's great grandsire, Scott, was a Smooth Collie by the name of "Ch Waite". She was the very first Smooth Collie champion, and thru Ch. Christopher, is an ancestor of all Collies today. Thus there exist no Rough Collie lines in which Smooth Collies do not appear.

But you are correct, rough is recessive and smooth is dominat. Rough x Rough will give you 100% roughs... smooth x smooth you CAN possibly get roughs and smooths.... if both parents are rough factored (carry the recessive rough gene).... my current litter is a rough factored smooth x rough factored smooth and all the puppies are smooths.... again, if you breed rough x smooth you can get rough puppies IF the smooth parent is rough factored. If one smooth parent is pure for smooth (2 dominat smooth genes) all pups will be smooth.

The different between the american collie vs. european collie is more than the stop and coat though... the european collies are very short backed, which throws off their movement, they have straight fronts and rears and they and are cow hocked, and lack any bone and substance.

Now...on to a breed that has changed drastically over the years.
American Cocker - Red Brucie circa 1921


Black/White Parti



Can you honestly tell me where in that second photo, it matches the AKC description of a moderately coated dog?

Along with the coat difference in cockers.. their heads have changed, muzzles are much shorter than they were originally, which makes it harder for them to pick up any lager birds...

[So-Crafty]

Spiritwind - it almost seems as if they use the rouse of a heavy coat to mask those features in their dogs and anyone untrained may or may not see it. I have not really looked at European Collies and to my relatively untrained eye, I did not see those features, however, upon closer inspection I find that you are completely right. The bone structure appears quite finer. They almost have a Sheltie-esque appearance in their facial features. There is one that I found that seems like a too-tall Sheltie in appearance. Through some of my website browsing, I did find a few British Collies that appear to have more substance, but it is only on the younger dogs as if people are trying to change the appearance of the breed to a more substancial dog or have had outcrosses to American bloodlines. Though I do not see the eye of the European/British Collie's appearing anything like the eye of the American Collie. Why is this? Did European Collies have the same difficulty with CEA as their American cousins?

There is more to the American Cocker than just changing the coat, which is one of my biggest gripes. The Cocker was like the poor man's hunting dog and he was supposed to be agile, quick and merry with a coat that would easily cast away brambles and burrs. However, the dogs I see today from breeders are showing stubby noses and the breed is becoming (IMHO) a toy dog, rather than a sporting dog.

[Spiritwind]

Spiritwind - it almost seems as if they use the rouse of a heavy coat to mask those features in their dogs and anyone untrained may or may not see it. I have not really looked at European Collies and to my relatively untrained eye, I did not see those features, however, upon closer inspection I find that you are completely right. The bone structure appears quite finer. They almost have a Sheltie-esque appearance in their facial features. There is one that I found that seems like a too-tall Sheltie in appearance. Through some of my website browsing, I did find a few British Collies that appear to have more substance, but it is only on the younger dogs as if people are trying to change the appearance of the breed to a more substancial dog or have had outcrosses to American bloodlines. Though I do not see the eye of the European/British Collie's appearing anything like the eye of the American Collie. Why is this? Did European Collies have the same difficulty with CEA as their American cousins?

I don't know that they are actually using the coat to hide faults, but it does work out that way... however there are still pleanty of american rough collies whose faults are hidden by their coat. A good groomer can really hide faults and bring out virtues!!.. thats a good thing about smooths! You can't hide structural faults!

Now the european collies are smaller, based on their standard - they are 2 inches shorter. However in recent years there have been lines of american collies, that have produced dogs that are MUCH smaller.... I personally prefer dogs on the larger end of the standard, still in the standard but the larger end of it... though I do have a couple bitches that are barely 21" tall... north american breed standard is 22-24 for bitches... 24-26 for males.

It is getting more common for some european breeders to import dogs from the US. I sent a dog over to Finland earlier this year.... to a breeder who was working with american lines.

The eye set/placement is different in european collies than in american, I think thats is the main reason the expression is different and it gives a totally different look.... CEA is pretty wide spread in the breed, its been around since the very beginning... Its seen in collies all over the world....

Just for an extra FYI... European Shelties look nothing like American Shelties either... they have a similar look to the collies over there... different head styles -- more stop, different expression because of the eye placement and shape... I know some people who took their multiple BIS winning sheltie bitch to Crufts several years ago and the breeders over there at the show treated them like dirt....

There is more to the American Cocker than just changing the coat, which is one of my biggest gripes. The Cocker was like the poor man's hunting dog and he was supposed to be agile, quick and merry with a coat that would easily cast away brambles and burrs. However, the dogs I see today from breeders are showing stubby noses and the breed is becoming (IMHO) a toy dog, rather than a sporting dog.

Yeah, I've noticed these things with the Cockers as well!...

[So-Crafty]

I don't know that they are actually using the coat to hide faults, but it does work out that way... however there are still pleanty of american rough collies whose faults are hidden by their coat. A good groomer can really hide faults and bring out virtues!!.. thats a good thing about smooths! You can't hide structural faults!

I know that some groomers can work magic, but those coats are just insane! They kind of also remind me of those Old English Sheepdogs (the grey and white ones).

It is getting more common for some european breeders to import dogs from the US. I sent a dog over to Finland earlier this year.... to a breeder who was working with american lines. The eye set/placement is different in european collies than in american, I think thats is the main reason the expression is different and it gives a totally different look.... CEA is pretty wide spread in the breed, its been around since the very beginning... Its seen in collies all over the world....

Isn't the importation a lot simpler than it used to be as well? Like I said, I've seen a lot more Collies in some photos with a nicer headpiece, but upon further inspection they have had outcrosses to American lines.

I know some people who took their multiple BIS winning sheltie bitch to Crufts several years ago and the breeders over there at the show treated them like dirt....

Now that's just a shame. That's what I hate about [some] breeders. They should be all about the breed and what it was bred to do and looks should come second. And good for those people that they made it to Crufts! I would LOVE to go to Crufts some day just as a spectator!

You said you're on other Collie forums? Can you send me a link? I'd love to join some breed-specific forums!

[shepgirl]

I agree with you, Lute, about the GSD. I really didn't notice how horrible it was until I saw Pedigree Dogs Exposed. Now every time I see a GSD like that, I want to be sick.

I agree with both of you about the GSD. Being a GSD owner I never buy from show stock for this reason. All my dogs are east German, sometimes west German lines. These rears on the ground make me sick also. Everybody seems to be out to see if they can get the most angulated dog. I blame the judges for even looking at these dogs, let alone give them best in show.
We now have people breeding clownish pandas to make matters worse, or whites, which go totally against the standard. At least they are not recognized in the ring so they might fade away soon.

[Spiritwind]

Isn't the importation a lot simpler than it used to be as well? Like I said, I've seen a lot more Collies in some photos with a nicer headpiece, but upon further inspection they have had outcrosses to American lines.

Yes, for the most part it is MUCH easier to import dogs into europe. It depends on what country (the UK still has some tougher regulations) because each country has their own regulations, but when I sent the one dog to Finland, all he had to be was current on his rabies vaccine, be microchipped, have tape worm meds no more than 14 days before the flight, and have a vet exam no more than 24hrs before the flight. You also have to have your regular health certificate (like when flying within the US) no more than 10 days old and a bilingual health certificate approved by the USDA no more than 30 days old....

Some countries require rabies titers, Finland did not. I had to drive him 6hrs south of here to the Atlanta Airport though to get a direct flight out of the US (other wise he would have changed planes 2 times before leaving the US). Which flew him from Atlanta into Frankfurt, Germany -- with a 2 hr lay over, where he got examined by a vet again, before getting on the plane to Helsinki, Finland.

[Spiritwind]

Everybody seems to be out to see if they can get the most angulated dog. I blame the judges for even looking at these dogs, let alone give them best in show.

I totally agree! See this is the reason why I say the reason certain breeds have changed is not JUST because of breeders, but because of judges. Judges have a HUGE impact on what dogs are bred, and how they are bred. If judges did not award dogs with these exagerated faults (like GSD or Pekes or Bulldogs) that do not meet the original breed standard, people wouldn't breed them!....

People see a GSD that is so over angulated in the rear that its walking on its hocks, and it wins, and keeps winning, taking major wins, group placements or group wins and so if its a male, people breed bitches to him because he is winning a lot and they want to win. Its fads that change breeds! If judges judged to the standards and not the fads of the time, not as many people would breed these dogs with these over exagerated faults.....If people got kicked out of the ring for it, people would change it!.... JMO

[shepgirl]

Have to agree withyou on that one SpiritWind...maybe the judges should exclude these extremes from the ring. Handing them best of breed only intensifies the need to breed them even more....vicious cycle.

[Pop Alexandra]

Have to agree withyou on that one SpiritWind...maybe the judges should exclude these extremes from the ring. Handing them best of breed only intensifies the need to breed them even more....vicious cycle.

Totally agree. We should consider the dogs' needs a lot more when breeding.
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Alexandra from W2C