Rude dog/dog behavior

[Blackrose]

I need some help in the Chloe department once again. As she's matured she's becoming increasingly more bratty and rude towards other dogs, and frankly, it is driving me nuts. I'm completely astonished by the level of tolorence my other two, Blackie and Rose, have towards her as they both have doggy issues of their own. If any other dog tried to mount Blackie it would be on the floor being attacked, but when Chloe does Blackie'll just turn away and look at me like, "Please, please, please get this annoying thing away from me."

When Chloe first meets a dog, normally when she is on leash, she will sniff noses with the dog for a couple of seconds (maybe a count of three) and then she will growl and "lunge" towards the dog. The only dogs I've seen her not dog this with were two fellow Collie mixes, a Dachshund she was in puppy class with, and a baby puppy she saw in at Petsmart. With one of the Collie mixes I still had to keep them sperated most of the time because while they would have a grand time playing with each other, when Jack wanted to stop Chloe wouldn't take no for an answer and would increasingly get more aggressive towards him when he failed to respond.

It also doesn't seem to matter how many times she's met the dog that she is being introduced to on leash, she will still growl and lunge at it upon first meeting. I haven't been able to discern any type of particular dog she doesn't get along with, as she's gotten along well with both female and male dogs, as well as various sizes. I've tried to avoid her meeting in actively "dominant" dogs, as I'm sure that would be a fight, so all of the dogs she's been in contact with have been either submissive or what I'd dub "normal".

When she meets a dog and she is off leash, I haven't seen her do the "growly" thing, but she is VERY rude. After a few seconds of nose sniffing she immeadiatly tries to mount the dog and will continue to pester it non stop. She thinks all dogs should play with her and her playing consists of body slams, mountings, nips, and jumps. I've only met two dogs who put up with her idiocy and that was a Heeler mix that is just as rude and a Border Collie pup that played just as rough.

She has been slightly like this every since I got her, it has just gotten worse. It has gotten to the point that she can't be out in our yard at the same time Blackie and Rose are because Chloe will "dive bomb" them, jump on them, and nip at them. All the while the dogs are giving off clear signals (even I can understand them) that they are being annoyed and she better stop, but she won't. They'll then proceed to growl at her or lift a lip and she still won't stop.
The other day I wanted to see what Rose would do to correct Chloe (as Rose was able to put Sadie in her place quite well). Chloe was being a brat as usual and Rose started to growl at her. Rose snarled at Chloe, Chloe dropped to the ground (as I don't believe Rose pinned her) and proceeded to act all nice and submissive. Rose backed off and as soon as Rose's back was turned Chloe jumped up and lunged at Rose. I jumped in between them, backed Chloe up, and then they were perfectally "fine" (or, in other words, back to where we started).

Is this just Chloe's own personal play behavior (the mounting, body slamming, and nipping -- reminds me of our neighbor's old Boxer) mixed in with her "dominant" (or should I say, "low tolorence level") personality, or is it something that can be "fixed"? If training can help it, how should I could about "fixing" it?

There was one time where Chloe actually behaved like a normal dog and I was completely shocked by it. We watched a Border Collie puppy (she was maybe 4-5 months old) a month or two ago and Roxy (the pup) was very fear reactive towards all three of my dogs. Chloe was the first dog to interact with her and Roxy was snarling, growling, and lunging at Chloe because she was terrified. I had Roxy in a kennel and Chloe in an adjacent kennel trying to get them used to one another (for the main reason being that Roxy would have to be housed next to my older two and I wanted her to be comfortable around another dog). Chloe was AWESOME. I only had to step in between them once and that was when they first met and they stared at each other a bit too long for my taste.
Every time Roxy would growl/lunge, Chloe would turn her head and walk away. She kept that up until Roxy was a bit more comfortable and was just sniffing noses through the fencing and then Chloe went into a playbow and tried to convince Roxy to play with her. It worked and the two loved each other for the duration of Roxy's stay. I wish I knew why Chloe acted that way, but I'm stumped.

I can probably get a video of her interacting with Blackie and/or Rose if it would help out at all, although I don't know if I'm brave enough to let them interact freely. I normally step in the moment I see Blackie or Rose start to get a bit annoyed.

Help, please?

[Giselle]

How old is Chloe? She sounds like a relatively normal, rambunctious, and, yes, rude adolescent. Also, what breed is she?

Hate to say it, but Chloe sounds leash reactive. When Ivy was 6-ish months, she started lunging after dogs (on lead, never off lead), too. This was after nice loose leash meetings with the other dogs, as well. The fact of the matter is that Ivy lacks the right doggy manners to properly incite play. Plus, she is very high energy and driven. So when she is restricted by the leash, she converts the excitement into frustration (aka lunging and barking). This is essentially leash reactivity. She is by no means aggressive, but she is certainly reactive and had a very low threshold (note the past tense . It sounds like Chloe's threshold is actually pretty high, so find a few bombproof dogs you can borrow as demo dogs. On a loose leash, allow Chloe to walk within a few feet of the dog, click/treat. You should be behind her so that she has to trot back towards you to get the treat. Repeat repeat repeat. If you sincerely think Chloe has the right skills to calmly meet the other dog nose-to-nose, you can start training that, too. I, however, know that Ivy is incapable of meeting other dogs nose-to-nose and so we just click/treat for looking at the other dog (Look at That! game coined by Leslie McDevitt from her book Control Unleashed).

Frankly, I think Chloe just needs to be taught the right lessons from your own dogs. Blackie actually sounds like she's acting like the perfect matriarch. To ensure safety, though, muzzle all dogs whenever they interact in the yard. Giselle endures a lot of crap from Ivy, but, if Ivy pushes Giselle too hard, Giselle will give her a warning scruff grab. After that, Ivy will hunker down into a submissive bow. At that point, I usually redirect Ivy and give her something more wholesome to do (fetch, obedience, agility, a hard jog, etc.). I want Ivy to learn her boundaries and to be aware of them. But after a correction, I want to set her up for success, so I redirect her and give he an alternative activity.

Also, I have not gone to conventional dog parks for a few months now. The only places I take Ivy now are off-lead hiking trails, and she is ALWAYS 100% under voice control. After a brief <10 second meeting with a dog, I recall her and keep moving. That way, she stays below her threshold and maintains relatively "proper" doggy meeting manners.

ETA: If, at any time, Chloe does not respond to the click, she's above threshold and you need to take a few literal steps back.

[Blackrose]

Chloe is 14, almost 15 months old. She is a Collie/Australian Shepherd mix. so yes, rambunctious, hyper, reactive, and adolescent all fit her quite well!
Here is a picture of her, just to show her off:


Where can I find some "bomb proof" dogs? A large problem with me during Chloe's early puppy days was trying to find dogs that had good manners themselves. As a reslut, I don't think she's ever been around another dog that actually was a perfect gentleman.
Blackie and Rose are good around her, but I don't trust them to correct her. I'm afraid that Rose will over correct due to her fearfulness (especially since Chloe resembles the breed that is the reason for Rose's hesitancy towards strange dogs), and I'm also afraid that Blackie will over correct due to his "dog aggression".

It wouldn't surprise me as Chloe having "barrier" frustration. That was a thought that crossed my mind, as she also will bark at/divebomb Blackie and Rose when they walk by her kennel. I can get her to stop by saying her name, but that is another thing that drives me up the wall.

We do have a local kennel club that uses positive reinforcment/clicker training. They offer all kinds of obedience and agility classes (including a CGC class), and I've entertained the idea of entering Chloe into a basic obedience class for a while.

I think I'm going to contact the trainer in charge of the Basic obedience class and ask her about it.

[Giselle]

Ah, Chloe sounds exactly like an Ivy.

Don't worry. Reactivity is actually very common, especially in high energy breeds. It's sort of "the dog who wanted to love too much".

You can join obedience classes, but I guarantee you they won't help as much than if you went directly to a behaviorist who is VERY experienced in leash reactivity (and preferably has dealt with these problems in his/her own dogs).

I highly recommend Leslie McDevitt's book Control Unleashed. You may want to read this before you set out on a search for a behaviorist. Many trainers/behaviorist like to command for 100% focus in the presence of other dogs, but, if you read CU, you will realize that that can even exacerbate the frustration and reactivity. She suggests using the game Look at That! which is explained in the book. I've experienced the vast difference between the two methods of dealing with reactivity, and I have to pledge my allegiance to CU. I actually have a couple videos of various dogs demonstrating LAT. If interested, just PM me! Leslie also addresses dogs who go bonkers with frustration even in crates and kennels and how to rehab that.

ETA: Re: bombproof dogs. Do you know anybody who has a greyhound? Greys are notorious for their gentle disposition. Most greys are 'bombproof' in the sense that they usually are not reactive. Or do you know anybody who has a very submissive/completely non-aggressive dog? Basically, any non-reactive, not-too-hyper dog would do. You just need them as a trigger.

[shepgirl]

The mounting is definitely a dominance thing with Chloe. But I sense she is also feeling safe by being on leash with you around for protection...sounds like a bravado thing to me. If she's off leash when you meet another dog, watch till you see her tryng to mount and turn in the opposite direction and walk away, she'll forget the mounting and come running...but don't turn around to peek, walk away fast. At home I would leave the room when she starts this and let the other dogs show her some manners. I think the fact that you always intervene makes her feel safe so leave the room and go into another room and shut the door...she'll soon be looking for you. We see dogs like that at training classes all the time, so brave when the owner is on the other end of the leash but running away if off leash and owner walking away.

[Karen]

Where can I find some "bomb proof" dogs? A large problem with me during Chloe's early puppy days was trying to find dogs that had good manners themselves. As a reslut, I don't think she's ever been around another dog that actually was a perfect gentleman.

I'd definitely contact the trainer, not only to sign up for that class, but the trainer might know some good, well-behaved, "bomb-proof" dogs as well. The class will likely help a lot, after all, it not only will help train Chloe, but teach you as well!

And I just have to say Chloe's a beauty!

[Blackrose]

I contacted the trainer and she said that in her opinion, Chloe wouldn't do well in the class because she will be on leash the entire time and she "doesn't want me to become frustrated". IMO, If I've put up with this ever since I got Chloe, I don't think I'm going be blowing my top off because she's still growling at other dogs. Of course, I also told her about Chloe's resource guarding over extremely high value objects (bones) and how she sometimes doesn't like to be physically restrained, but oh well. Maybe I should have kept that to myself as I'm working on both of them and we are making progress.

She recomended that I take her to Purdue's Behavior Clinic (I live maybe 30 mins away from Purdue, if that). In order to get in to the clinic you need to have a vet's "letter of recomendation" (LOL I don't know what else to call it) and then the consulation is 2 hours and is $220 bucks. The follow up visit is $80. I'd really not like to spend $300 on a behaviorist, espeically if I have a chance of working out her issues at my own home.
Besides that, I don't want to have to get Chloe tested for any medical reasons behind her issues when I know full well it isn't medical. When she tried to bite my sister and I a day after she pulled a muscle in her neck, now that was medical. But I don't think growling at other dogs while onleash is cause for a full blood panel to be done.

I do know some people with Greyhounds, but they aren't very Greyhound like. LOL They are both retired racers, but one thinks it is a watchdog and the other is very skittish. For intial training, I might use Blackie (as he is good with Chloe, for the most part) and then progress to Rose, as that is who Chloe focuses most of her "rude" behavior towards. Then we'll move towards some neighborhood dogs that Chloe knows, and lastly strange dogs that she doesn't know.

[Giselle]

Honestly, I don't think group classes are ideal for reactive dogs who haven't completely learned coping skills. I had to make a very difficult decision, but I recently pulled Ivy out of our group agility class that she has been attending for almost a year. A new dog came into the class and Ivy and the other dog (who is a spook) are causing each other a terrible amount of distress. As such, Ivy and I are now doing private lessons. This way, I can focus ONLY on agility to increase her skills and then spend the rest of the week working ONLY on reactivity. Although it hurts my self-esteem, it's ultimately better for Ivy.

So I returned your PM There's a lot of into continuously flowing through my brain, so please PM me back with any questions you may have. I probably forgot to include a lot of vital information in my PM, so, please, ask

You also don't necessarily need bombproof dogs. For now, you just need strange dogs as triggers. You can go to a local dog park for that. The bombproof dogs are really only important if you want to teach Chloe how to actually greet others nose-to-nose.

[Blackrose]

So while I'm pretty sure Chloe is leash reactive towards other dogs, I'm still not intirely sure she is good with them off leash. (Thus, not all of her problems would be leash reactivity.)

Yesterday our neighbor's dog got loose and came running into the yard. Chloe was outside on her chain so I went running outside to make sure there wasn't going to be a fight. Bobbie (a cattle dog mix) and Chloe sniffed noses without any problem and then Bobbie went into a play bow and took off, so I just stood outside and watched them for a while.

Bobbie was being a very good girl - submissive, not snappy at all, etc. Chloe, however, was being a butt. I couldn't figure out if Chloe was actually having fun playing or if she was very irrated and was borderlining aggression. Her and Bobbie where jumping all over each other, tackling each other, and having a normal play session, I don't think I ever saw Chloe go into a playbow and she was almost constantly growling (but dogs growl in play) and she was nipping hard at Bobbie's sides (almost like snaps). The corners of her mouth weren't relaxed either, but pushed up. When they would take breaks Chloe was okay and didn't try to push the playing or go after Bobbie, which made me think she wasn't being aggressive, but I don't know.

This is really what I'm confused about - I don't know if she is being aggressive (if the dog does something wrong if she'll tip over the edge and attack), or if that is just her play style. Blackie and Rose used to rough house all the time and they'd be growling and flashing teeth, but I always felt comfortable with it.

Bobbie was very enthusiastic and kept coming back for more, but she also does that with my two older dogs when they are growling at her, so that didn't mean much.

I'm going to see if I can't get them to bring Bobbie down here again to play with Chloe, and I'll try to get a video of it for you guys....but this has me royally confused.

This isn't a video of Chloe, but a video of some Huskies that I found on YouTube. However, the nippy/snappy/lungy thing that the dogs are doing to that GSD (Hans?) is very similar to what Chloe does:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYfns...eature=related

[Giselle]

In my experience, there is a very clear distinction between play and aggression. When a dog is in aggression mode, it is out to damage and it won't stop until 1) the dogs are somehow pulled apart from each other or 2) damage has been done. When an aggressive dog has hit that mental stage, there is no turning back until there is a forced, physical separation between the two dogs. Play CAN be agitated and it CAN turn into a scuffle. But if both dogs are voluntarily stopping and starting interactions, then they are not being aggressive.

The thing about leash reactive dogs is that they can learn to interact nicely with dogs they are familiar with. When taught coping skills, leash reactive dogs can be calmed down to a level so that they can stay within very short distances of other dogs. Individual dogs have individual thresholds, and it is really difficult to assess exactly how far you can initially push your dog.

A major trigger in leash reactive dogs is calmness. Leash reactive dogs will often NOT react, even when they're on lead, if they're in a calm state of mind. It's almost beyond simple, but when a reactive dog is calm, it is not above threshold and not reacting. Many times, Ivy confused me in the beginning because she would react some days and she wouldn't react other days. I quickly realized that, in the face of environmental stressors (i.e. me asking for behaviors, new places, new people, etc.), she would react. In situations where she was either physically or mentally exhausted, she would not react because she was, essentially, calm and tired. I think if Chloe were in her own familiar territory and Bobbie is a familiar friend, Chloe could actually be very calm and not prone to react. Just how I think things are playing in Chloe's head She sounds extremely similar to Ivy.

ETA: Also, do you think Chloe isn't making a clear distinction between on leash/off leash with the chain? I feel like she doesn't feel like she's being restricted on the chain, which is affecting her behavior (for the better, I suppose).