Official Prong Collar Advocate

[bckrazy]

I am not a fan... but I'm glad it works for you & Ajax! Hopefully, you can wean him off of it at some point.

I just wanted to add, as a warning, make sure he doesn't begin to displace the pain he gets when he pulls, to other things that you don't want him to associate pain with. For example, you see a child on a walk; Ajax is excited and tries to pull toward the child but he's stopped by the prong. In his mind, where did the pain come from? Pulling, or the child? This is primarily why I wouldn't use training tools that are pain-based... negative associations can happen in a second, especially with a young dog. And they are much harder to reverse than they are to form. Just be careful!

[K9soul]

I just wanted to add, as a warning, make sure he doesn't begin to displace the pain he gets when he pulls, to other things that you don't want him to associate pain with. For example, you see a child on a walk; Ajax is excited and tries to pull toward the child but he's stopped by the prong. In his mind, where did the pain come from? Pulling, or the child? This is primarily why I wouldn't use training tools that are pain-based... negative associations can happen in a second, especially with a young dog. And they are much harder to reverse than they are to form. Just be careful!

I tend to disagree. First of all a prong collar if used correctly shouldn't cause pain, a correction with it should never be painful. I do agree it can be abused and misused though. I use them when I walk all three of mine to ensure I have control if I am walking them all. Singly I don't use it but more than one, they can way overpower me if something startles them or goes wrong so it's better safe than sorry. My Tommy is a really big wimp I have to say and if it caused him pain he'd run and hide when I brought it out I'm sure LOL.

The other thing is I think most dogs are smarter than we sometimes give them credit for. When they pull the collar tightens. If they see a child and pull and it tightens a bit, they (the average dog) will stop pulling and the pressure loosens, child is still there. They can easily connect that not pulling means a loose collar, in my opinion. Now if it were a shock type collar situation where there was no rhyme or reason as to where the correction was coming from, I agree they are more likely to associate it with another stimulus.

Again I think the prong can definitely be misused but I do not feel it is a pain device when used correctly.

[bckrazy]

Oh, I totally agree, Jess. I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone here who uses prongs puts their dogs through true "pain"... but, it obviously causes discomfort, or it wouldn't have any affect.

I think it is a tool that should be used as a last resort, that's just my opinion, though. And, honestly, I don't think a pet store or a busy shopping area is the ideal place to start prong training. Instead, the backyard would be a good place, or anywhere devoid of anything that the dog could associate the discomfort with, besides pulling.

[shepgirl]

Bckrazy I think you might be on to something nobody has thought of before.
I think some dogs might associate the correction with when it was corrected, for example pulling to get to someone or something.
Out trainer uses these for extrememly hard dogs so I can't wait to discuss this with her.

This triggered a memory from long ago. My friend went riding and her Sheltie tagged along, For some reason the dog screamed out in pain and my girlfriend thought the horse might have stepped on it's toes. But when she returned home the dog was limping badly and wouldn't go near her or the horse. She had it vetted and found out it was the kneecap that had turned or something, had nothing to do with the horse, it just happens with shelties. To this day, the Sheltie refuses to go near the horse.

What I don't understand is if the dog has been chosen for service work, why would someone train it with a prong? I've never seen any SD trained with a prong, facilities just don't use them.

[NicoleLJ]

Shepgirl that is just not true. You certianly like to make generalized statments. I used to be just as nieve about the prong though as you. Lots of trainers who are and facilities and owner trainers are using the prong today. For the main reason that it helps a weaker werson work a stronger dog. There are many a person that are in wheelchairs, or have walking problems or so on that are owner training their dogs. They need something to help them train their dog that is easy to use and does not take a lot of strength. This is the tool they use. Just because you have not see it does not mean it is not used.

Please do not make generalized statemments about isues you know nothing about. I am on many Service dog boards that have members that owner trained their dog and members that got their dogs from facilities. Some of them from both groups use prongs. They are the ones that helped me decided to use it on Ajax.

Again just because you have not seen it does not mean it is not done. And I suggest you start reading what you type before you post it. Your generalized statements about groups of people are starting to tick me off.
Nicole

[Jessika]

I firmly believe that prong/choke collars, etc, are a wonderful training aid when used correctly. Unfortunately many people do not use them correctly and keep them on as their permanent collars, etc, and I feel that is wrong...

I'm seriously considering a prong for Jamie. She is so bad on a leash again since we don't have to walk her to potty like we had to when we were living in an apartment.

[shepgirl]

I'm still discussing the issue that Bckrazy mentioned with our trainer and she's looking into it since she said no one had thought of that but the possibility is there depending on the dog. By the way, she said to thank you for that genius moment....lol.

Nicole My best friend works in a dog training Academy ans they do not use prongs and she also never has seen it. Can you imagine a prong in the hands of a child - it wouldn't be possible for most challenged children. Which is why they don't take in the kind of dog that would need a prong.

[Seravieve]

We have three prongs for our three. Zeke can walk well without it. He went to obedience school and is very good for J to walk. But he has a longer coat.. and we have hemp/fleece collars.. and if/when he pulls, he slips right out of them. So we walk him with the prong just so we know he wont be escaping. Bunny will pull your arm off w/o the prong. She also walks with a backpack these days.. and 6 cans of veggies to give her a good workout. She's a high strung dog, came with lots of mental baggage, so she needs a lot of direction and control. Both Zeke and Bunny are dog aggressive too, so I need to feel confident when I am walking that there is no possibility of them getting loose.

Eli now walks with one as well. He's a puller, always has been, even at 5 months when we got him. The prong works very well to keep him close.
I also walk E and B on a Y-lead (2 dog walker thingy) so they are quicker to react and easier to control with the prongs.

I understand where some might see it as a dangerous tool.. or where the negative stigma is coming from. If we take Eli into Petsmart w/ a prong, people as "Oh is he friendly?", etc.. like he's an aggressive mean dog that we so carelessly brought in a dog store. With his regular collar, none of those silly questions. And Yes it could be harmful if a dog was left unsupervised while wearing it and they got caught on something... But when used soley for walks, or when on leash, whats the big deal?

I need control of my dogs. We have tried so many other methods; Choke chain, harness, halti, regular collar, a woven slip collar, etc. Bunny escaped while wearing both the halti and the harness (not at the same time, but escaped while using each), dont ask me how.

Use what works, and to each his own.
But sign me up on the Pro-Prong list as well!

[NicoleLJ]

Nicole My best friend works in a dog training Academy ans they do not use prongs and she also never has seen it. Can you imagine a prong in the hands of a child - it wouldn't be possible for most challenged children. Which is why they don't take in the kind of dog that would need a prong.

Oh so this means you know for a FACT that know Service dog training facility, No Dog Training facility, No Service Dog Trainer, and No Dog Trainer at all will use it because your friend says so and you have never seen it? OK if you says so. I will let you believe that as I go to my service dog groups and discuss our training with our prong collars.

We use what works. Each dog is different. Is a dog bad because it needs a Prong? No. Ajax is just a very happy dog that sometimes likes to get beyond himself. The prong helps him to stay focused. And I am already finding I am correcting him less and less. And he is still his happy self getting treats from strangers, adults and kids. Giving out kisses to everyone, meeting strange dogs and wanting to play with everyone. The only difference the prong made was it gave me better control to be able to train his very happy and excitable brain.
Nicole

[DJFyrewolf36]

Im a fan. I've noticed that the majority of dogs Ive seen being trained by prong collars graduate to being well mannered without one. For the most part the prong collar is used for initial training in my experience. Using a prong collar I think its better than having the dog choke themselves getting overly exitible.

Just my opinion

[bckrazy]

I'm still discussing the issue that Bckrazy mentioned with our trainer and she's looking into it since she said no one had thought of that but the possibility is there depending on the dog. By the way, she said to thank you for that genius moment....lol.

Oh jeez. I don't deserve any thanks! Just googling "prong collar issues", tons of websites with information & studies from knowledgable people come up. When you are using pain-based tools (I don't mean severe pain, just discomfort, of course) there are a lot of things that can go wrong. Even when implementing positive reinforcement training, you can accidentally reward bad habits, or use food or toys as a crutch. There are flaws in everything. It's just, some of the effects of using training tools and punishment are pretty serious and can be dangerous.

I totally agree with you, about trainers using correction collars... every single educated behaviorist or trainer I've met is vehemently against chokers, prongs, etc. I'm far from being skilled or experienced, but I know quite a few awesome trainers, and I trust their judgement. My trainers do approve of sensation harnesses, as a total last resort. They are a lot safer, gentler, and overall there is little room for error. And I've seen them work wonders with intense pullers.

[SemaviLady]

What I don't understand is if the dog has been chosen for service work, why would someone train it with a prong? I've never seen any SD trained with a prong, facilities just don't use them.

I've been disabled all my life and know many adults that are disabled since birds of a feather tend to find each other. Many of us use service dogs in an official or less formal capacity.

Dogs chosen for service work are NOT machines. They are still capable of having bad days and good days and facing new situations with which they are not yet comfortable. Their handlers also have built in limitations which can require some unique approaches and many disabled people cannot wait two years or more for a program trained dog, so they have to train their own using adaptive techniques. Some like me, use their own dogs that show that special talent as adults, others may adopt a younger dog and hope it turns out.

We can't generalize about handicapped people, their abilities, range of motion, ability to react in a timely manner, their strengths and weaknesses ...

hey for that matter -- step back a bit.... you cannot even generalize about an able bodied person training a dog. Put 15 able bodied people into a dog training class with dogs from different breed genres, from terriers to gun dogs, to toys, herding dogs and flock guardians, and voila... you have a collection of people who have diverse levels of different strengths and abilities, as do their dogs. Tiny frail people do not necessarily want to have a tiny frail dog. Klutzy people sometimes own fast athletic dogs. Some speedy "type A" people like to have a lumbering big dog that is slow and methodical.

There ya go. They need a trainer, communication mediator sensitive enough to find the right tools to help establish a working partnership and successful communication between each pair of members in each unique team.

That is asking a lot even with able bodied people. We know many able bodied people leave a class taught by an able bodied trainer and yet they still have a dog out of control when they leave class. - Left (leash) arm longer than the right? (check) The dog believes the leash is made of rubber? (check) Dog pees at every sign post and ignores the handler? (check) The dog still leaves in a heartbeat if it sees a squirrel? (check)

Pray tell, what kind of dog trainer was that? "Politically correct" artist who paints by number? Sometimes you have to be a Picasso. You do have to blend tools and 'colors' and dirt in order to get success.

Dog trainers who are attuned to their students and the student's dogs know that each part of the team creates a potential need for a different approach and sometimes different equipment. To think otherwise is rather arrogant.

A person I know who has MS and one leg, helps to train other people with their service dogs from wheel chair (on her good days). Some of these people may be paralyzed in a limb but they need a big dog to help them with their balance to help them feel safe when they are walking alone in the inner city. Do you know how to help train them to train their dogs while they are manipulating a walker or wheelchair? What if they are having a bad day and have spasms? Remember this is a service dog that will have to work without a trainer overseeing them when the handler has a bad day. A prong collar may help a person who has wrist problems or who needs to lock their hands onto a walker.

Many disabled people who train their own dogs are quite attuned to dog language of their own dog(s). If they see their service dog yawning or averting their eyes, they know something is up and know to look to see what the dog is telling them. Some of them due to their specific limitations and even preferences, do use prong collars - I have only used it for specific situations and sometimes it is years before I dust it off again. Some use ruffled bungees to cover the collars to protect them from being harrassed by 'dog experts' who know so much better than anyone and who jump to conclusions.

I have some pics and a blog post about my service dogs here.

[NicoleLJ]

SemaviLady - Awesome post.
Nicole

[shepgirl]

Bckrazy, of course you deserve praise and a lot of credit. If not for you mentioning this fact we would have continued training with the same old ways. The trainer is so busy, she doesn't get much time to ggogle anything, She's one of the best and to remain the best she continues taking clinics and courses on dog behavior. So this really helped her . She will be incorporating this in her next newsletter. We try as hard as we can to rectify problems, but with the multitude of dogs with individual temperaments it gets hard to follow what everybody seems to take for granted...focus on those different temperaments.
Of course we have the flunkies, but we consider the owners flunkies since they never pay attention, never come back for the next lesson with their dog prepared, etc.
Our trainer is now working on revamping her whole teaching methods.
Take a bow Bckrazy....

[shepgirl]

SemaviLady - I didn't realize you were talking about people training their own dogs. I thought we were talking about training of dogs in facilities. That's why I was saying they never use prong collars. But yes, I watch people train their family dogs with prongs all the time, the prong isn't new to me. One place that will absolutely NOT use them is PetSmart. For some reason it is against the store policy, just found that out while talking to a salesclerk while doing some shopping there.