separation anxiety???

[ktreva52]

Well, thanks all for the warm welcome back. For the folks that don't know me, I spent three years working at PetsMart in Indianapolis (Castleton) and was an obedience instructor there for two of those years. Prior to that, I spent 7 years working with 4-Hers on Dog Obedience and trained my first "officially obedience trained" dog over 13 years ago.

Yorkster, I just glanced at your original message and another thing struck me: your dog is Border Collie/Lab mix???? From what I have seen over the years, Border Collies are argueably (?) the most intelligent breed in existance. This is not to disparage the other breeds, but working with sheep herders in the Highlands of Scotland, they had to be bred to work sometimes totally alone and to figure out what they were supposed to do with the sheep they rounded up. At best, they still had to work at some distance from the handler and were frequently "directed" through the use of whistling. A similar situation is true of the field breeds like the Lab. You're working with one SMART dog, here. So, some long-range suggestions: first, obedience school. Very important to help establish who gets to tell whom what to do. Then, I would consider getting into agility or flyball with her as she is going to need a lot of activity that makes her use that mind. You might also look into taking her to herding trials, although AKC will not allow her to title in them, since she's a mix. However, if she clearly favors one part of the mix over the other (i.e., she looks like a Border Collie more than a Lab), you might be able to get an ILP (Indefinate Listing Privilege) number from the AKC which will require that she be spayed. Is she? Then, you would be elegible to compete for titles in everything except conformation. I'm bringing all this up because she needs a more active lifestyle to help her accept you as the leader of the pack and to socialize her and help her understand her place in this world and your home.

Daisy's Mom: Is that a picture of Daisy? How utterly adorable.

Anyway, it is really nice to be back online and back with the doggie people on this site (and the cat people, too -- can't forget the other members of the family). Hope all this helps. How big did you say that crate was?

[yorkster]

Ktreva52, the crate is very large- big enough for a quite large dog, and Scout is med. size (about 45-50 lbs.). I believe it was one of the biggest ones they had at Petsmart. Also, the obedience classes I am taking are at Petsmart in Lynnwood Wash., so I/we are probably learning things very similar to your training. As far as exercise goes, YES she is very active. Right now we play a lot of ball with her in the back yard. From the first day, she would leap into the air to catch them. We tried a frisbee with her when we saw this, but she did not seem to care for it too much- in fact she had it all chewed up by the time we were done. Agility training is something I have considered. Where could I find info about it in my area? As far as how she looks, it is maybe a bit closer to the lab in her. She is built like a B. collie, her head is definately B. collie, and she is VERY muscular and compact. Her hair is shorter black like a lab. She has white markings on her chest, neck and feet.
We are in the 'basic' obedience class right now, and so far so good. The only problem I have had with her there is that she and the other dogs bark a lot at each other- there is one dog in particular that she clashes with, another female dog who seems quite dominant (as Scout is too). What finally worked with her was a squirt-bottle. Since then she has been fine. Oh-yes, she is spayed. She was not when I got her 3 months ago, and she was 3 years old already. I don't know if that makes a difference (the fact that it was later in life). I don't know a thing about her history because she was a stray at a shelter. I do know that I love her!

[yorkster]

Ktreva- I forgot. You mentioned 'herding trials' and that sounds quite interesting. Are they always through the AKC, or is there somewhere else also? Can I find info on the internet? Thanks again.

[Daisy's Mom]

Hi Chris - no, that's not Daisy, but I have always loved that picture too

[ktreva52]

Well, Yorkster, you raise an interesting issue here -- technically, spaying a dog later in life is not a bad thing and beats the heck out of dealing with the estrus cycle if you are not planning to breed. I would, however, keep an eye out later on in life for cancerous tumors that might develop, especially in the mammary glands. Not to say it will happen, but usually spaying later than 6 months to a year increases the chances. At least, so I've heard.

Congratulations on getting started in obedience. I hope the instructor at PetsMart is good and being very helpful. I would talk to him/her about trading in the giant (I'm assuming) crate for a large. If you still have the receipt and it's not too "eaten", they should be willing to accomodate you.

I don't know for sure if other groups like AMBOR (American Mixed Breed something) have herding trials or not. I like to use www.askjeeves.com for stuff like that as you can phrase your search in the form of a question and it gives you lots of options to choose from. The same with the agility. There are several sites about agilty, but I've been off-line so long, I've forgotten what some of them are. You might open that topic back up in Dog Games. We had a lot of discussion on that last August or so, but I don't know if the archives go back that far still.

As for how she looks, you could contact the AKC (I believe it's www.akc.org) and request the papers for an ILP. They will require a letter from the vet listing the day of her spaying, there are forms to fill out, and you will need to send two pictures of her -- a front view and a side view. Even though her coat is more Labbie, it sounds like she's pretty Border Collie and they may well allow her an ILP. That would be fun.

As for teaching her to work with the frisbee, first, you want to teach her to hold it without chewing. The way to do this is to actually open her mouth, put the edge of the frisbee in and gently hold her mouth closed over it for a second. Then, release her mouth and take the frisbee back. The commands are "take it", "hold", and "give". Once you can get her to hold the frisbee for a while and give it back to you, you can start holding it out a bit and encourage her to "take it" such that she has to reach for it. Then, use hold and give to get her to hold it and return it. At each step of the process, LOTS of praise at what a wonderful girl she is and treats won't hurt either. Eventually, she should be willing to go after the frisbee and return it to you for the praise and treats. This is how we taught our two older dogs to retreive the dumbells for the more advanced obedience work the kids were getting involved in. Shiloh, our JR mix, was suspicious of the process at first, but once she understood what we wanted, she loved retreiving. Lacey, our cattle dog mix, on the other hand, thought it was a waste of her valuable time and Shiloh could go fetch the silly thing -- until Swiss cheese made it's way onto the dumbell. Then, suddenly, retreiving was really fascinating for Lacey. Anyway, I hope this helps and I hope you find information about the herding and agility. Check with your instructor at PetsMart about agility, she may know someone that does training in it, or look in your phone book for obedience schools. Most of them offer classes. Good luck. Sounds like you're really making progress with an active dog.

Daisy's Mom -- I LOVE Daisy's patriotic pic.

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: ktreva52 ]

[Daisy's Mom]

LOL thanks!!! And now it is Daisy in my profile

[ktreva52]

She's such a cutie and what a classic Basset face. Has she stopped getting into the trash?

[yorkster]

Hi Ktreva52- Well, my dog Scout is going to graduate from obedience school next Sunday. It has really helped BOTH of us. I am thinking about taking intermediate classes after this. However, something happened when we arrived home today: I took her out right away and played a long session of ball. She went potty during this time. About 20-30 minutes AFTER we came back indoors, she wanders into the living room ands potties again! To be fair, she had been kinda at the door whining to go back out, and I ignored it because she does this all the time, and it always ends up meaning that she sees a squirrel to chase, or she expects to play ball again. She NEVER just goes out and potties. Even in the morning, when she should have to go real bad, she won't go until we start playing ball with her first. I have tried to take her out there, on her leash to her 'spot', and she just gets all excited and jumps around expecting ball. If I stay there long enough, she will settle down, but still not go- just stand there. I have tried saying 'go potty', either that or not looking at her, but nothing........When she went on the rug tonight, I actually caught her in the act for the first time. I (kinda) yelled 'NO! Bad dog!' and then toke her outside to her spot, hoping she would get the idea. When I brought her back indoors, I put her in a down-stay for quite awhile, maybe 30 minutes or so. I did not pay any attention to her during that time. She hates that too, because she is VERY attentive and likes to follow me around. I don't know if I did the right thing or not. I just kind of reacted. She has been much better since dog obedience, but this one area is still a problem. My question is (I hope you did not already cover this): Any suggestions on getting her to potty when I tell her to? I mean assuming she has to go. Or letting me know when she needs to go, and not just that she wants to play or chase something? Would it be better to take her out on her leash, or just let her go on her own? If I take her, how long should I stand there WAITING for her to go? Should I say anything, or just ignore her when she starts jumping around, expecting to play ball? I get the feeling that she is just trying to get 'her way' when she does this. Like she is thinking 'if I jump around & look cute, she will give-in and play with me'......and I have, I admit. I mean, I have to give her a lot of exercise, because she is high-energy. But I swear, she would let me stand there forever I think and not go until I play ball with her. In this area, I think she is winning............probably my fault too.

[RachelJ]

I know you were asking Ketreva, but this brings back memories when my Hannah was younger as this is just the way she was. I honestly don't know exactly how we worked it out, it just took time and lots of perseverence. The thing is we did work it out. Just had some thoughts as I read your post. You say you take her to a specific spot to go potty. This is a good strategy, but my theory is if one thing is not working, try something else. How about letting her pick *going* whereever she pleases? Also Scout has decided that going out is simply for playing ball, maybe you should not play ball every time you go out, just at her specific play times. She starts jumping up asking to play, you say, "No, you go potty". With Hannah, if she goes during the time we are out for play time and then does some serious running and jumping for the Kong, I always tell her to "Go potty" again before we go in, and 9 times out of 10, she will. Running and playing makes her need to go again, even though she may have gone 20 minutes before. As to how long you and she should stay out there waiting for her to go, that is a question I asked myself many a night in the wind and the wet and the cold. If I knew she should have to go, I usually stuck it out as long as it took. I would just keep walking her back and forth, telling her to go potty. I think keeping moving is preferable to standing in one spot. This helps on two counts. One is she may find a spot where she decides this the one she wants to go at (some dogs can be very picky about that) and the other is moving in and of itself is going to facilitate the need to go.

[yorkster]

Hi Rachel- my post was not just for Ktreva- I need all the advice I can get right now! Thanks for your suggestions! I think that maybe if I dig in my heels, and refuse to 'play ball' until she has gone, it will eventually work out. Maybe use the ball as a reward. I know she will let me stand there for a LONG time though, sometimes stubborn girl that she is- I guess I'll just have to be even more stubborn...........and yes, it's a good idea you had to let her pick her spot.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Yorkster, I can not state strongly enough that I think Scout does not understand what you expect of him in the housetraining arena. While you may have a separation anxiety issue when you are gone, it sounds like the dog goes even when you are home. The most common nonmedical reason for housesoiling is improper housetraining! Being that Scout is a rescue it could be that house breaking is a delicate subject with him.

In an earlier post you stated that you caught Scout in the act and then took him out and then put him in a down stay for 30 minutes. Disrupting the dog in the act and giving a strong verbal NO command and taking him out was sufficient. You did not need to put him in a down stay for 30 minutes on top of this. Remember that dogs do not have a concept of time. Just hearing you say NO and knowing you are displeased should of been enough. Harsh punishment may discourage your pup from illiminating at all when you are present - even outdoors!).

Since it seems your dogs housesoiling stems from incomplete house training, you might try some refresher training.

1. Keep you dog confined in a comfortable crate when you can't supervise it. Make sure the crate is large enough for the dog to sit, lay and stand in but no bigger. If your crate is bigger, partition it off with a cardboard box or something to take up the excess space. If the dog can be trusted not to soil during the night then don't crate him at night. If he does soil at night then crate him then too!

2. When you let the dog out of the crate, immediately take him out to "GO POTTY". No balls, frisbees, etc. Make sure you give lots of verbal cues to "GO POTTY". When he does then you make a fool of yourself with praise for him. Kiss his hairy lips, hug him, whatever it takes to let this dog know you are sooooooooooo haaaaaaappppppppy! Don't do anything else until the dog potties. You may need to use an extra long leash so the dog feels like he has some privacy. Give food rewards if he responds well to food. Don't do anything else until he "GOES POTTY". Use the term over and over again "GO POTTY" so Scout will associate the phrase with the action.

3. Before Ball and fun time take the dog back inside for a few minutes. This way the dog will understand that outside is potty time before play time. You may take him in for a drink of water or something and then establish going out for fun after. Do NOT put potty and play outside activities in the same context until the dog FULLY understands the phrase "GO POTTY" and will do it on command.

When I have Dixie outside and we are playing I can tell her "GO POTTY" and she immediately drops her frisbee and does what I ask her. I still praise her like crazy even though I know she understands what I'm asking her to do 100%.

4. This may be the hardest and most important step to follow through on. If Scout refuses to "GO POTTY" in a sufficient amount of time (say 3 or 4 minutes) then immediately bring him back in the house and put him back in his crate. Repeat the procedure again in about 15 minutes.

It is important that you back up to the beginning. If you think you are being harsh on him by crating him then he wins, you lose, and your the one who needs to deal with it. I personally would rather crate than have to clean up urine from a grown dog that should be trained already! After all once he is house trained you can let him out of the crate permanently!!!!!

One final thought. You should have an established schedule of knowing when your dog has to go. For instance I know that Dixie is a morning pooh dog. I make sure she goes before I leave for work. Dusty is a morning, late afternoon, and evening pooh dog. How many times a day does Scout go and what time of day is it usually? If it's morning you need to give extra time then for both pee and poop. If it's evening the extra time goes there. Have a set routine and know your dogs schedule. You will be surprised how willing your dog will be to please you, once he understands exactly what you expect!

[yorkster]

Hi Dixieland Dancer- You might correct about Scout not having been housebroken before. We adopted her in mid-July when she was already 3 years old. The shelter did not know anything about her, etc. because she was either a stray or was dumped at the city pound. She had also NOT been spayed at the time, and had a couple broken teeth and a few scars. She did not seem to be very happy- did not wag her tail much and all that. However, she was very responsive to attention and was very affectionate and loving with us right away. We found out after getting her home that she is an awesome ball player- catches in the air and leaps up to catch. She just lives for ball now! After about a month, she really came out of her shell. She wags her tail all the time, and does that cute 'smile' thing that dogs can do. She smiles a lot now! Obviously whoever owned her before did not take care of her at all. Poor thing.....she is sooooo sweet.
After I read your post, I took her outside and said 'go potty'. She went within a couple of minutes! She was due to go at that point, so it may have had something to do with it, but she has never gone on command before. I am hoping that because I FINALLY caught her in the act and told her NO, that she is starting to understand. Keeping my fingers crossed anyway.

[RachelJ]

Now I am dying to see a picture of Scout. She sounds so endearing and I think we are all starting to feel like we know this dear heart.

If you don't have a scanner, I would love to do the honors.

[chembear]

Hi,
I'm new here and I've read most of the posts in this thread and the other referenced thread. I think my dog also suffers with separation anxiety. I'm sure my family and I have given her very mixed signals. To make matters worse not only do I have this anxious dog, but I have two young children, 5 and 8. I've gotten pretty good at ignoring the dog when we get home but didn't know until now that I needed to also ignore her when we are getting ready to leave.

Duchess (our dog) is a Luwellyn Setter/Border Collie mix. She seems to be just fine when we leave, no barking or anything, she just looks out the window (before we started crating her). But when we come home she's going crazy. Jumping up on the window, barking, pacing from the window to the door, whining.....the whole nine yards. She usually doesn't do anything destructive but obviously she's waiting for us to return. Otherwise she's a great dog, although after reading some of this thread I can see some behaviors that show she's confused in her place in our house. She follows me everywhere...and I mean everywhere, bathroom , laundry room, etc.

My questions are:
1. How do I get my kids trained to ignore the dog when we get home and when we're ready to leave....or is it even important for them to do so?
2. Is this behavior a dominance issue? She listens to me better than anyone else in the household, she sleeps with my son and won't get on our bed unless invited. She does like to sleep on the furniture though.
3. We are planning a big move from Sacramento to Phoenix and I'm concerned about her stressing out over this as well as our being out of the house. What can I do to make the transition smooth and less stressful?

Duchess was adopted from the SPCA I think I can understand why she was surrendered. She was living in an apartment and she's a very high maintainance dog. Gotta go out and run (walks don't cut it with her) and play with other dogs. I've actually toyed with the idea of getting her a playmate...probably a retriever. I don't want to get another dog right now because of the move. Had I known we would be moving 2 months after getting Duchess I would have waited to get a dog. But now that I have her and have fallen head over heals for her I want to make this thing work.

I do plan on obedience training but I want to wait until after the move.

Thaks to anyone who's read to the end of this one.

Cindy

[yorkster]

Oh Rachel........that would be great! I don't have a scanner, and wouldn't know how to post the pic anyway. I am almost done with a role of film I have been using for 'my animals' (2 cats, 1 dog). When it's done, we will take it from there. I guess I should mail the picture to you? Thank-you!