separation anxiety???

[karen israel]

Hi Carrie!...I know you explained this before, but I'm still puzzled (what a surprise THAT is! )as to why the dog is alpha if it sleeps on your bed? The only time Cody will jump on my bed is if I'm NOT in it, ie: getting dressed, cleaning... or he sometimes naps there during the day. Luckily there's no room for the both of us anyway (he'd smother me)Would Cody still be considered alpha in this situation? You know it's taken ME a long time to assume the alpha role and I'd like to keep it that way.

[RachelJ]

And as long as you are explaining, I have a question as well. How do a pack of wolves in the wild sleep? Do they sleep together or by themselves? Does the Alpha wolf sleep with the rest of the pack or off by himself in a spot he designates as the best?

[carrie]

Alpha status is really a straightforward thing to a dog as it universally understood and accepted. People find it very hard to grasp the concept and even harder to put it into practice for, I believe, two reasons. The first is the way we view our pets - we all know that we have domesticated wolves living with us. That bit is easy to understand. What muddles us up is that we are suprised by the intelligence and individual character of the dog and we fall in love. This would be fine if we continued to see the dog as a dog and treat it as a dog (wolf) but humans find this very hard. Instead we start to treat the dog as part human and give him, for instance, a bit of cheese as a treat when we are making a sandwich for ourselves, or encourage the dog to sleep on the bed with us. Dogs are dogs - that is it - that is as hard as dog training gets. There is no other concept that has to be remembered. Dogs don't think like humans or talk to each other like humans or understand our actions or gestures as another human would because they are dogs. Dogs can not be expected to take care of themselves on a busy street because they don't understand the human world as a human does.
Which brings me on to the second reason - terminology. Words like dominance, submission and aggression are very strong and emotive words when humans use them. Every one of them is linked to violence, fear, danger and threat. When used correctly in the context of behaviour they have very different meanings (usually...there are exceptions but let's not confuse the issue now). Many people find the idea of being dominant towards their dog a very difficult thing to deal with as they are imagining forcing, making the dog do what I say or hurting the dog to make it comply. Many trainers are also guilty of misunderstanding the subtle submissive gestures given by their dogs and are not happy until the dog is flat on it's back.

In the wild the pack will sleep where the Alpha pair decides they can sleep. If it is cold that may be in a heap that looks like a jumble - it isn't! Every member knows exactly where the limits are and do not overstep them. If you allow your dog to sleep with you because you and he both enjoy the closeness you are telling your dog that it has an equal rank, status, level of dominance as you when it is bed time. This is fine if this is the only time your dog gets this message and you are happy with it. It is not fine if you are having any other problem with your dog as it will confuse the dog and make ironing out the other problem more stressful and difficult for you both.

By allowing Cody to sleep on your bed when you are not there you are telling him that he is second to you only. That is also fine if you don't mind, if he leaves the bed EVERY time you ask him to and if everyone else in the house doesn't have a problem with the dog. But I would suggest that second place is still very high for a dog that has had a hard time trusting you to lead him.

Phew!!!! You should know by now that if you ask I will answer.....fully!
Hope that has answered your questions without putting you both to sleep!!!!

[lizbud]

Carrie,
If you have caught your breath so to speak,
I have two questions,please.
1: My dog Buddy will sleep in my bed during
wintertime only and after I have already gone to sleep.(I wake to find him at the foot of
the bed).Is this a dominence issue?
2: Are separation anxiety issues always
linked to dominence issues in some way?
Thanks very much, Lizbud.

[carrie]

Yes it is a dominant behaviour but bear in my that your dog is only taking advantage of a situation - it is not challenging you for overall control here. If the dog totally believed the relationship between you and it was as you see it the dog would not get on the bed. It may even be that you are welcoming the dog in your sleep or, more to the point, your dog believes that you are welcoming it. Maybe you turn your back on him when he gets up so signalling that his prescence is not objectionable.

I have never come across a case of seperation anxiety that was not linked to the dog's status in the eyes of the dog. I have also never had a case that was not eased by taking the responsibility off the dog of being the leader. The only dogs I don't consider cured of their anxiety are the ones that have improved so much in their owners eyes that the owner is over the moon, happy as can be but refuse to go any further with a dog that they consider cured. The most infuriating thing I have heard on many occasions is when I comment on a behaviour the dog is still showing and the owner says, "Oh well, she's always done that!"

[lizbud]

Carrie,
Thanks for your comments.I believe you are
absolutly right with both answers.I could
make Bud get off the bed 'if I wanted to',
but it has never bothered me,so was not an
issue with me.Just wanted to know why he
would want to sleep in the bed only in the
winter? (Maybe he was cold on the floor?)
Only time I shooed him off was once when I
rolled over and came 'nose to nose' with
him sharing my pillow.That was a bit much.
I think most people want to 'reasure' a
anxious dog as we would a person,and that
only makes the dog more anxious.You're right,
it's a communication problem between people
and dogs. My dog is very 'pushy' and I work
on that everyday.It will always be a work in
progress.. Thanks again.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Carrie, you know me, I'm impossible with Daisy. When she first slept with me, when I came out of the bathroom she would be on my pillow. I did not allow that, she had to go on her own pillow,(I know that sounds crazy)
She kept trying and I kept telling her no.
Now she accepts the fact that she cannot go on my pillow and she has to stay on her side of the bed (I know I know it still sounds crazy) I have really been working with her in other ways, when I call her to me I make sure she comes, I have told her no bark when she is at the window and she is doing fairly well. Do you think there is a time that even when a dog sleeps with you that they will ever consider you Alpha? When Don calls her she runs to him, when I call her she takes a detour to come to me, do you think she considers me a littermate? I'm serious!
Are there just cantankerous dogs?
Jackie

[Pam]

Jackie, I am afraid I feel much the way you and Rachel do about the Big Bed. Bella has been sleeping in our bed since she was potty trained. I don't think it's crazy about you wanting Daisy on her own pillow. As I was reading that I was laughing but it was only because you were apologizing for sounding crazy. I didn't think you were crazy at all. I think you are doing better with Daisy than you realize because she does respect your wishes about the pillow!

As far as her listening to Don better than you, I think a man's voice sometimes carries more weight. Sometimes I try to change my voice to be deeper just to see. Bella will come to me just as quickly when I call, but there are other areas where she will obey hubby more quickly than me. For instance if she is about to do something naughty and she sees him close by she will not even try it. What comes to mind is the day she was about to steal a sock out of the dryer and saw him coming and dropped it on the floor. If he hadn't walked by she may or may not have dropped it if I told her to, depending on her mood.

[yorkster]

That is funny Pam- in my house it is just he opposite. My hubby is more the softy (EXCEPT when it comes to potty, etc. in the house, which I have been hiding from him). I will walk into the L.room and she is halfway on the couch, and I'll say 'please don't let her on the couch' and he will say something like 'I didn't ask her up, she just did it on her own'.......meanwhile he is petting her and saying what a good dog she is. I do think that I have finally got it through his head that it is wrong and only making the problem worse. On another note, I think I have had a breakthrough on the problem: 4 days since a potty/poop in the house, and she is sleeping next to the bed succesfully. She still will climb up on the bed if I am not in the room, but jumps right down when I walk in, so she KNOWS better now. I have also been working really hard at being more firm and 'alpha', and it seems to be paying-off! Keeping my fingers crossed...........

[carrie]

Jackie, you know how I feel about Daisy in your bed!!!!!!
Until you have control in all other areas you are making life so much harder for yourself and the dogs than it needs to be. Until everyone is 100% sure of their place and safety in that place and as a pack Daisy feel that she has no obligation or desire to listen to you. Your dog's willingness is tightly bound to how it sees your and it's status - it will want to, even have an instinctive need to please a leader but has no time, incentive or need to indulge the whims of lesser members of the pack. By allowing Daisy to sleep with you before this is established properly you are giving confused signals to your dog that she can only interpret as she would if they came from another dog. She is not convinced that you are able to take care of the pack because of your confused language about the subject (to her) and as a pack needs to be lead she feels she has no other option than try to do the job herself.

No, I don't believe there are cantankerous dogs (although there are some with neurological problems that can't be helped- that is a totally different subject), only confused dogs forced into a leadership role that they aren't able to cope with and don't want.

Pam, the way you describe Bella dropping the sock she was stealing proves that it is not his voice that she is respecting more than yours but his attitude. His actions when he is around tells her that he is totally in control of the environment and that is all she needs to know to feel and show respect and a willingness to do what he asks. This is dominance in action.

Yorkster - I'm so glad that you are having such good results. If your husband doesn't understand set him a challenge. Bet him that he can't ignore the dog for two days - totally. If he can he will see a huge difference in the dog and you will be grateful enough to......( you fill in that part on your own!!). If he can't ..........(another bit for you). Even he only manages three or four hours he should see the dog's perception change and much happoer and more relaxed dog emerge.
Well done and keep it up!!!

Did I miss anyone?!!

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: carrie ]

[yorkster]

Hmmmmm......that is a great idea Carrie! He is pretty competitive, and I have 'bet' him before on things like helping around the house when company is coming, i.e. 'I bet you won't be able to get your computer room cleaned-up by Friday'. It works most of the time as long as I don't do it too often. I'll present him with a challenge as soon as I think of the reward...........Thanks Carrie, you have helped a lot and cleared some things up for me. We will see how the next few days go. Today and tomorrow will be a test because I have school and a seminar to go to- it's more common for her to 'act up' when I have to be gone, and she has to stay home.

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Carrie, I hate to tell you this but I think we are hopeless LOL It's time to confess, when I look at her big brown eyes rolling at me, I tell her O.K. Daisy you can be Alpha tonight, but I'm Alpha tomorrow night LOL. I told her Carrie says you can't sleep in the Big Bed with me and she says to me, Who is Carrie?LOL
And I say Carrie is an expert with dogs, and Daisy says to me the only dog around here is Perry and he don't sleep in the Big Bed so what's the beef?LOL
Where is Pam and Rachel when I need them? LOL
Love Ya Carrie
Jackie

[RachelJ]

Right here Jackie! I wasn't going to comment anymore having stated my opinion, but since Daisy needs help, I came up with this from the book *Good Owners, Great Dogs, A Training Manual for Humans and Their Canine Companions* by Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson. FAQ section contains the following
"Q. Is allowing my dog to sleep on the bed bad? A. If your dog is otherwise well behaved, it is not a bad thing to let him sleep on the bed. Tri is always on our bed. Caras comes up when invited. Piper prefers his dog bed. If you are single and hope not to be one day, don't let the dog sleep up there all the time. Insist that he wait until his is invited. Have him sit, then say 'OK up' and pat the bed. If he jumps up on his own, put him off and make him wait." So even the experts can have a different take on this topic.

The issue is really moot as far as I'm concerned because I would not give up sleeping with my dogs for the most well behaved, obedient, and subservient versions of these two that I could imagine. The pleasure of their company and their enjoyment of mine during our shared time in the bed in incalculable. For me, it is bliss.

[ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: RachelJ ]

[carrie]

Brian Kilcommons does not have a different view to this question to me - he has just put it in a much softer way. "If your dog is otherwise well behaved...." is exactly what I said. It should not, then, cause problems.

[RachelJ]

My apologies, Carrie, you did say that.