A question about God & the Bible?

I let me say first and foremost, I only want to be educated on my question. I don't want anyone flamed, or any fighting. I will delete this thread at the first sign of it. I just simply need some clarification.

I believe in God, Allah, or whatever you want to call the almighty entity that created the universe. I don't believe in everything the bible says. In the last few years I've come to believe that IMO the bible was written by men, for men. It's not IMO, the "word of God", but the words of mortal men, with no divine guidance.

Now, my question is this. What am I? I’m not a Christian, because I don’t believe in the bible and so many things that Christians believe in. Christians won't accept my views on this issue, and Atheists will disagree that there is a God at all. Is there a term/name for what I am and believe in?

I'm feeling very confused by my feelings, but very steadfast in them. I believe that there is a God, and that some things are definitely not right in his/her eyes, but I think the bible and much of what it contains is simply the writings of mortal men.

I think that's called agnostic. I know I feel the same way you do, and, that's what I've always said when people felt the need to label me. Usually, I just take the two seconds to say I believe in a higher power, just not organized religion. :)

I believe you'd be called an "Agnostic"

Agnostic is one who is skeptical about the existence of God.


That's what I am... because I do believe there is a "higher power" but I don't truely believe it unless i'm proven/shown.

I thought of Agnostic, but I DO believe in God and that he/she/it created the universe and all that jazz. It's just the bible, and much of what it says that I have issues with.

I'm not skeptical about his/her/it's existance, just the way it's presented in the bible and by many organized religions.

I think Agnostic would be the best way to describe you though... or maybe you're just Mickian. :p

Mickian... LOL

Micki, if I were you, I'd go speak with a priest or pastor or someone in your area. They have no problem setting up times to talk and if you tell him ahead of time that it's not that you DON'T believe in God, you just are unsure about the Bible, they'd be happy to meet you and explain.

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Originally posted by Kfamr
I think Agnostic would be the best way to describe you though... or maybe you're just Mickian. :p

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Cool. My own "religion". :D I've been reading and reading, and can't find "me" anywhere.

For instance, I believe in Heaven and Hell, God and Satan, evolution is creation and creation is evolution. That one freaks my inlaws completely. They can't believe what their son married! They're very religious with ZERO tolerance, who use derogatory terms for anyone who doesn't believe EXACTLY as they do, so you can imagine what the holidays are like for us! :p

I don't think you'd be described as an 'Agnostic'. An Agnostic is someone who is skeptical about the existance of God...one who believes there's no way to prove God's existance. It seems to me that you firmly believe God does exist...you just don't believe the Bible is completely His word.....right?

I don't know what you'd be called...maybe just a Confused Micki. ;) He he he. Just kidding. :p

You know, as a Muslim, I believe God has always sent the same 'laws' to His people. I don't believe God ever sent multiple religions, and if you think about it, it doesn't really make sense that One God would send multiple religions that are completely different from each other either, now does it? My religion teaches me to firmly believe the revelation God sent to Abraham, Moses, Jesus, David, Muhammad.....all the prophets, was exactly the same message and God's true word. I do believe the Book God sent to Moses was the true word of God, and I also believe the Book God sent to Jesus was the true word of God...just as I believe the Quran, which is the Book God sent to Prophet Muhammad is the true word of God. I don't believe the Prophets before Prophet Muhammad had any 'different' faith. We believe they brought the same message brought to us by Prophet Muhammad. That being said, the Bible was written LONG after Jesus had left this world. I firmly believe the words God sent to Jesus were nothing but God's TRUE words, but because the Bible was written in book form long after Jesus had left us, I also believe much of it (definitely not all....I do believe there is still some truth in there) is man-written. That is why Muslims do not believe completely in today's Bible.....because we don't believe its in the same form as it was at the time of Jesus. The Quran, however, was written down completely during the life of Prophet Muhammad, and it hasn't been changed at all. Its Arabic text is still in the exact same form as it was when it was revealed. We just believe the Quran to be the final and completed message sent by God...and the same message 'originally' brought by Jesus, Moses, Abraham, and the rest of the prophets. That is the reason we have so many stories in the Quran that are similar to what's in the Bible, yet there are so many things that are different too. The differences are what we believe to be the man-written parts.

I know you didn't ask this, but when you mentioned you think much of the Bible is man-written, it reminded me of what we believe in, and I just thought I'd explain our beliefs. You just reminded me of it. :p

well, i've never taken the time to look this up, but, it doesn't sound like you're agnostic. and, neither am i. i just have a problem with organized religion. guess there's not a name for that. :) here's the definition off www.m-w.com

: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

I believe one should not say I have found THE God, but perhaps A God. Much like one should not say I have found THE truth, but A truth. American Indians believe there is a God in a tree, a God in the mountains, a God in the water... I believe there is a power of some kind, it's within each individual. It's not up to me to be the final WORD. Anyone that does think so is rather narrow minded IMO. Some believe in doG. I do too.

Micki - I have the same feelings as you! I call myself "Christian" because that is how I was dedicated (its like a christening ceremony) but in a lot of ways I'm really not. I'm gonna do some reasearch because I think this way of believing is becoming more common. I would love to discuss this with you, as I've yet to meet someone with so similar beliefs as mine :)

There are just so many things I can't agree with that make me not even want to label myself a Christian. I have read the bible, and, agree with some things, but, not all. From what I've seen, Buddhism fits a lot of how I feel is good and right. Nomilynn and Micki, a lot of people share those thoughts, we aren't the only ones. :)

Naomi and Kari - so good to know I'm not alone in these feelings. I've always felt this way, but rarely expressed it to anyone, and have been ridiculed when I have. It never made sense to anyone that I would believe in so many "biblical" things, but not believe in the bible itself.

I also feel that this almighty God puts the "commandments" in you, just as Satan is in you. In other words, you know right from wrong and have the free will and choice to do good or evil. I don't believe that an almighty being/God/Allah, needs a Bible or Koran written by men to tell you how to live your life, when it's already in you.

I can't really say how I feel about Jesus. I call myself a Christian, yet I really don't believe in the virginal birth of Christ. Why do I celebrate Christmas then? Christmas for me, is an honoring of the holy being that created all the universe, not Christ's birthday.

Honestly, I celebrate Christmas because I like being around my family, giving/receiving gifts, singing songs, and, stockings and lights and a christmas tree in my living room. I have never really been religious, so, I've never really celebrated it for those reasons. And, it's not for lack of being raised a certain way, I've just always questioned and never really got answers. So, I just try to be honest and nice, and, live my life without judging people. So far, I think it's gone alright. :)

Deist....Thomas Jefferson was a deist....believed in the existence of God but not in organized religion....(very few of the founding fathers were practicing Christians....why I'm always baffled when people say the US was founded as a Christian nation.)

I have some differing opinions to what you just said, in that I believe children are taught right from wrong, but they are born "good" and with no real influence would have "proper" morals. Does that make sense? However, I also know that is really a supjective issue because who is to say what is "proper" and what isn't.

I believe Jesus was born of immaculate conception and that he was a real man that walked the earth. I also think that we don't really know what He was like, as everything written about Him in the bible was written by someone else, and se we get someone else's opinion. I believe that the Bible is a story, written by LOTS of different people, and has been interpreted/translated so many times that it can only be interperted. I think the point of the bible is for everyone to find what they need to have a relationship with their God. Have you ever been feeling yucky, opened the bible to a random page, and found the "perfect" words to help you out? I think it happens all the time, and my belief is that people search for answers and "create" them to suit their needs. I know I do it - I don't think it's a bad thing :)

back to ol' www.m-w.com for me. :) Here's deist/deism: a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe

I don't know if that describes me or not, but, i'm looking it up on the internet.....

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Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Deist....Thomas Jefferson was a deist....believed in the existence of God but not in organized religion....(very few of the founding fathers were practicing Christians....why I'm always baffled when people say the US was founded as a Christian nation.)

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Wow! Here's a great expanation of Deism. Thank you Sara! That's the closest I've ever come to finding a definition of what I am! :D

Those are some good definitions/quotes. Thanks for the link, micki. The ones I went to weren't that simple. I guess I'm still not sure if it's the label for me, because it still seems that there are things you have to believe in order to be a deist, and, i already was confused by some of the beliefs on the sites i visited. ha ha, it's never ending!

Just curious....what are some of the conflicts you see in the Bible?

I am a practicing Christian. After growing up in a Methodist church from the moment I was born, being baptized, and living the "good life", I only recently (well when I was 15...21 now...) found the true meaning of the word "Christian". I believe that Christianity is the acceptance of Jesus Christ into your heart and allowing the Holy Spirit to help guide your life; having a personal relationship with Christ. Just believing in Jesus/God is not being a Christian...even Satan believes in Jesus/God, but I wouldn't classify him as one (lol funny to think...Satan a "Christian"...) Anyway, I didn't mean to "preach from a soap box"! hehe Sorry. Just wanted to let you know where I stand. I am just curious as to what conflicts you find in the Bible. I promise not to preach again...:D...maybe your questions will help me grow in my faith (and can give me something to talk about with my middle school Sunday School class).

Micki - I'd say you are a monotheist - one who believes in one God. Deist is close, too. Pantheist would be someone who believes in many gods.

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Originally posted by shutterbug0303
Just curious....what are some of the conflicts you see in the Bible?

I believe that Christianity is the acceptance of Jesus Christ into your heart and allowing the Holy Spirit to help guide your life; having a personal relationship with Christ.

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To address your first question - what do you mean by conflicts? I don't know that I find conflicts in the bible so much as I feel conflicted in my own beliefs versus an organized Christian faith/religion.

And I like your definition, and I agree. In that sense, I am a Christian, but I'm not "practising" as I don't go to church. I also wouldn't categorize myself as belonging to a specific denomination.

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Originally posted by shutterbug0303
Just curious....what are some of the conflicts you see in the Bible?

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Sorry...I was having a hard time with wording...uumm...what "concerns"/"questions"/"disagreements" do you find? Did that help clarify? I am going by the orginal post

Posted by Micki - "I don't believe in everything the bible says."

Just curious as to what parts...:D


Also, being a "non-practicing" Christian is becoming very common...I was one this summer. There are so many conflicts within the church (it is a body of people who make mistakes) that is makes being there hard at times. Church is a touchy situation when it comes to the Christian faith....Church is really meant for Christian to "refuel" in a sense and be surrounded by other people with the same beliefs. Unfortunately, that is becoming harder to do in a lot of churches, so many find themselves not going at all and having small groups get together in order to help keep in check and be accountable for each other :D I did that for a long time after I left my church; led my own Bible study! :D

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Originally posted by shutterbug0303
Just curious....what are some of the conflicts you see in the Bible?

I am a practicing Christian. After growing up in a Methodist church from the moment I was born, being baptized, and living the "good life", I only recently (well when I was 15...21 now...) found the true meaning of the word "Christian". I believe that Christianity is the acceptance of Jesus Christ into your heart and allowing the Holy Spirit to help guide your life; having a personal relationship with Christ. Just believing in Jesus/God is not being a Christian...even Satan believes in Jesus/God, but I wouldn't classify him as one (lol funny to think...Satan a "Christian"...) Anyway, I didn't mean to "preach from a soap box"! hehe Sorry. Just wanted to let you know where I stand. I am just curious as to what conflicts you find in the Bible. I promise not to preach again...:D...maybe your questions will help me grow in my faith (and can give me something to talk about with my middle school Sunday School class).

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I don't see any conflicts in the Bible. I simply believe it was written by mortal men, with no divine intervention. Same thing with the Quran.

IMO Christ was a man. Only a man, not the son of God.

I see the Bible as an historical account. A summation of history by men of the times. I believe in the history that it contains, but not the mystical aspect.

BTW - I want to thank and congratulate everyone who’s commented so far. This has been a wonderful discussion. :)

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Originally posted by shutterbug0303
Sorry...I was having a hard time with wording...uumm...what "concerns"/"questions"/"disagreements" do you find? Did that help clarify? I am going by the orginal post

Posted by Micki - "I don't believe in everything the bible says."

Just curious as to what parts...:D


:D

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Ok this makes sense :) I don't believe that the bible should/can be taken literally. I can't comment on the Quaran because I don't know anything about it. Basically, I believe that the bible is a work of history, or even a story. It was first written in Hebrew (I think), and, in translation things HAVE to be interpreted. For example, in Hebrew there are no spaces, and all letters were capitals. Look at this example:

GODISNOWHERE

it can say "God is now here" and it says "God is no where" So who made the decision to say He is here? Also, there aren't always English translations for some Hebrew words, and so people had to make the "best choice" even though it's not exact.

Also, because the written record was written in a different time and life, it just isn't practical to apply it to our lives in a literal sense. For example, there is a verse in the bible that says never strike your wife with a whip bigger than your wrist (this is a horrible paraphrase but it works in this context). In our day and age, domestic abuse isn't acceptable - period! So we have to adapt the bible to work with the change in society, and I think it can be done as long as we take the underlying messages like "love thy neighbour" etc etc.

Does that answer your questions at all? :) I hope it makes sense!

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Originally posted by micki76
Now, my question is this. What am I? I’m not a Christian, because I don’t believe in the bible and so many things that Christians believe in. Christians won't accept my views on this issue, and Atheists will disagree that there is a God at all. Is there a term/name for what I am and believe in?

I'm feeling very confused by my feelings, but very steadfast in them. I believe that there is a God, and that some things are definitely not right in his/her eyes, but I think the bible and much of what it contains is simply the writings of mortal men.

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okay you are a creation of God read genesis
well we beleive that ounce you are saved (ask jesus to come in your heart) you are saved forever and go to heaven. but if you lie doent mean you are not still saved you must ask jesus to forgive you. jesus died on the cross for our sins so we may be forgiven (watch the passion of the crist). people such a disipoles wrote the bible. there is an all might god.
you may have heard or god, jesus, and the holy spirit 3 diffrent god's but they arent. they are one person well think of a 3 leave clover god is one leaf and jesus is an other and the holy spirit is the third, it's all connected on the clover so it is one.

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Originally posted by guineapiglover4ever
okay you are a creation of God read genesis
well we beleive that ounce you are saved (ask jesus to come in your heart) you are saved forever and go to heaven. but if you lie doent mean you are not still saved you must ask jesus to forgive you. jesus died on the cross for our sins so we may be forgiven (watch the passion of the crist). people such a disipoles wrote the bible. there is an all might god.
you may have heard or god, jesus, and the holy spirit 3 diffrent god's but they arent. they are one person well think of a 3 leave clover god is one leaf and jesus is an other and the holy spirit is the third, it's all connected on the clover so it is one.

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Yes I understand your concept, I just don't believe in it. :)

It sounds like you are closest to a Unitarian. They believe that God exists, and Jesus was a man. Beyond that and their general tolerance, I know very little about them.

I'm a scientist. One of the paradoxes of science is recognizing there are things that cannot now, nor may ever be able to be, measured. This includes the concept of infinity. I'm thinking of that concept a lot, and how religions are human attempts to quantify the Infinite. It really goes back to our trible ancesters, (IMO).

The wonders of creation stand for themselves as evidence that *Someone* is running the show!:)

I know for me, personally, I believe in God, just not a lot of what organized religion deems sinful. First of all, I could go to church and ask for forgiveness every day for the rest of my life. But, I'd still go out and swear and drink and practice premarital sex, and, not have a problem with homosexual people. Sorry for being so graphic, and, I'm not saying that I'm an alcoholic or that I sleep with multiple people. But, in my opinion, because I'm not sorry for some of the sins I commit (according to organized religion anyway), I can't consider myself a true Christian. that's my issues with religion. I believe in being a good, honest person. I believe in doing what you can to not hurt others, I believe in doing what you can to help others. I just can't see going to hell because I practiced premarital sex with a man I was in love with. If I can find one church or religion that I can agree 100% with, I'll be all over it. I'll be in the church of that religion, reading the books of that religion, practicing that religion...every day. But, only if I can do it 100%. I can't see calling myself anything if I don't believe everything it teaches. That's my reasons. :)

Put me down as a Chrignostic.

Genesis is a metaphor for creation. A literal reading of it seems hopeless in the face of scientific evidence. If we are the makings of some higher being and we invented the metaphor, then why can't Genesis be a metaphorical expression of the creation of the universe, only in days rather than billions of years? I am an English teacher and feel if someone takes Genesis literally and misses its metaphorical and allegorical aspects, then they don't really understand it.

As for the rest, Christ's message was one of peace and harmony. The Commandments seem pretty clear and in line with the teachings of other religions. I really admire a lot of the teachings of Judaism.

I don't go to church nor do I label myself as anything in particular. I don't understand how or why people get bogged down in denominational minutia.

This joke has always amused me about that:

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I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. I immediately ran over and said "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

"Like what?"

"Well ... are you religious or atheist?"

"Religious."

"Me too! Are you Christian or Jewish?"

"Christian."

"Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

"Protestant."

"Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

"Baptist."

"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

"Baptist Church of God."

"Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God."

"Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?"

"Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!"

To which I said, "Die, you heretic scumbag!" and pushed him off the bridge.

What an interesting and informative thread this is turning out to be, I find myself asking the same question of myself, I always claimed I was an atheist, but I was raised in the presbyterian church and Christened I believe, I have also been baptised in the Mormon Church (suprise suprise) but that was a choice I Made at 18.

I am a sceptic for sure, but I believe in people who can contact the Dead, I think like Guster Girl I have similar beliefs, in a higher power as such, but I am not sure I would say I believe in God.

The more I read, the more confused I become, i think I am agnostic to a degree, but still that label does not fit exactly.

I suppose I can not be called a christian as such, but I live by good morals, live a good decent , honest life.:)

I'm also enjoying this thread and I am one who is confused and torn on a lot of things about what different denominations teach. I think jcsperson made a good point and it should illustrate how many different ways there are of interpreting the Bible or other holy writings by how many denominations there are out there, all believing and interpreting things differently. I was raised Catholic but certainly have disagreements with some of the things Catholicism teaches.

I was so disenchanted with the church when it would not allow my husband and I to marry in the church unless we moved apart for at least 6 months. Well we hadn't gotten married before living together simply because we couldn't afford it. After we moved to MN, he was still going to college and I could only work part-time because of some health problems I was having at the time, and we certainly couldn't afford two separate places, in fact had to live with in-laws for awhile. We lived together about 5 years total by the time we got married. We had an apartment then and were getting by enough to save up for a fairly small ceremony, reception, and honeymoon. None of it was particularly elaborate but we saved up and paid for it without going into debt. The church would not let us be married in it unless we moved apart for 6 months first, after 5 years even if we could have afforded 2 separate apartments we wouldn't have moved apart, so we were forced to marry by Justice of the Peace, and that is really when I began falling away from the church and questioning a lot of things in my mind and heart.

Thousands of years ago, marriage was a lot simpler and easier, I think you could have a ceremony and gathering without having a lot of money, there weren't a lot of legal documents and licenses to get married in the times when the Bible was written, so to me in a way I wonder if "marriage" in the Bible is referring more to the choosing of a mate, than the actual ceremony. I mean, back when people might live hundreds of miles out of sight of another person, do you really think there were clergymen within range of every person, or maybe that they had a joining where it was declared by the families and that made it a marriage? I'm probably not explaining this well.. I hope some can understand what I'm getting at here though.

A lot of church teachings are contradictory of each other too. The Bible teaches "judge not lest ye be judged" and yet church officials "judge" and condemn on behalf of God. I guess that is one of the biggest things I question and wonder about. There are so many interpretations and translations of the Bible. I've also wondered as Martin (jcsperson) stated if some things were metaphorical, or even written as a parable.

Finally, how many people in the world seem to murder and destroy in the name of religion? Many many faiths have interpretations of what is right and wrong change through the years. At one time Christians went on crusades and slaughtered in the name of God. Of course most of us look back and see that as wrong now, but to them it was right and holy then. What if some of the things we assume are right and holy now will be things people look back on a thousand years from now the same way we look back on the Crusades and other religious slaughters today? How can we ever be so certain on one set way?

My father is a minister, so I was brought up on this stuff. hehe I considered myself Agnostic for many many years; that is, I believed in a higher power, but couldn't figure out WHICH higher power. :) Now, I'm pagan. Why? BEcause it is on the of oldest religions, and its higher power is not some omnipotent being who snapped HIS fingers and created an entire universe in a week. The deity is female, since all life begins with woman, which is why most ancient cultures worshiped female deities rather than male. Plus, the problem I have with the Bible and many of the 'stories' therein is this....... There are too many parallels with the pagan myths and teachings. If the Bible is truth, then why couldn't they come up with their OWN 'truths'. That, and much of the BIble does not coincide with what science has proven as truth. If you follow the Bible exactly, you go straight from Adam and Eve, to their children, to Jesus. Done. Where does the rest of history fit in? (Plus, if you look into it, the whole Garden of Eden thing is based off of an ancient Greek myth hehe)

Am I too cynical? hehe Probably. ;) But you asked for info and opinions, and... ask and you shall receive! hehehe

I took a course about the Bible in University, and there is evidence that God had a "partner" or even someone whom He went to for guidance, and it was a woman. I can't remember the details anymore but I can try looking them up. I may have also kept some notes from class. It was very interesting to learn about it. I'll see what I can find! :)

I'm pretty sure, from that definition that was posted upthread, that I'm either an agnostic or just purely a non-believer - an atheist? (atheist: one who believes that there is no deity) I am doubtful that there is a god/gods, but I think if there is one, it's something I won't find out until after I die (if indeed there is anything after you die, which I also doubt). So what's the point of worrying about it now? As long as I live a good life and I'm a good person, right? ;)


Anyway these posts have been very interesting to read! :)