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My 4 month old puppy Navarro has pain in her hips or back legs when she gets up from a nap (often short). It seems to last a few minutes then she is fine. Also when she plays sometime (not rough and usually she is up on her back legs) she gets hurt easily and it always centres around her back end any help would be appreciated.
What breed is she? It may be hip dysplasia which some breed are prone to have. A vet could check, and let you know how to help her, it varies dog to dog how severe it may become, and whether it will eventually need surgery or not.
She is a Rottweiler Shepard Lab cross.
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The shepherd in her would be prone to hip dysplasia. I think labs are too. Have a vet check her out. If it IS HP, the sooner you catch it the easier the surgery. And too advanced, it can't be corrected at all. Sometimes puppies from BYBs and mills have to be PTS as it is much too advanced for them to have any quality of life.
The vet will do xrays to determine what is going on.
Both Shepherds and Rottweilers are prone to hip dysplasia, so as Freedom said, getting her to the vet can help now, and help you know what to do to keep her comfortable.
Most likely it's just growing pains. They can be very painful for a pup. Make sure she's on an adult food so that she grows slowly and properly; Puppy food is full of nutrients that speed up growth and that can make the pain alot worse, and can cause skeletal and joint problems later in life. The slower she grows, the easier it will be on her. Many years ago we had to put a GSD puppy down at 6 months for severe pain from the long bones in his front legs growing too fast, and he was on puppy food. I've fed adult food ever since.
I wouldn't worry about x-raying her for hip dysplasia until she is 18-24 months and done growing. Puppies can periodically suffer from dysplasia during certain growth periods when the joints are lax. I have known of dogs to be severely dysplastic as pups that grow up to be OFA Good or Excellent. Most vets are trying to make a buck, and will recommend a total hip replacement if she's found to be dysplastic at this age. However a specialist would REALLY disagree with this. Wait until 18 months and check her then if it's still bothering her. All three of her breeds are very predisposed to both hip AND elbow dysplasia, and it's likely that the dogs in her background weren't checked, so it's likely she could develop it. I'd keep my eyes on it.
Until then, I'd go to the vet and make sure there aren't any other things causing her pain (maybe a skin problem?), and ask about pain killers. When my GSD pup was having bad pains, the vet prescribed him pain killers, but you can get over the counter stuff too.
Do you have any body shots of her standing naturally?
Here are a couple of shots of her. Thanks for all the advice and suggestions I really appreciate the help from all.
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Before switching your pup to adult food, I would check with your vet first. Puppy food has more calcium and nutrients in it for strong bones and puppy food is more easily digestible........But please do check with your vet first. Wish your pup all the best.....
Puppy food is not easier on the stomach for puppies, and it is too high in calcium and other nutrients; This is the danger. Puppies do not need that extra calcium for growing bones. In the wild, after pups are weaned and done eating regurgitated food, they are at the bottom of the pack, scavenging what little morsels ar left after the kill -- usually stomach contents and scraps . They are skinny and malnourished -- but they grow slowly and properly. The same joint issues that plague our puppies do not plague the wild dogs.
Vets are not taught about nutrition in school; 99% will recommend puppy food (and poor quality brands at that) because of the financial kickbacks they recieve from they companies they promote, like Science Diet and MediCal. A holistic vet may be up to date since they learn about nutrition in their holistic schooling, but still some may not know. The structure experts, like Pat Hastings, do know. Pat Hastings has studied thousands of puppies from 8 weeks to adulthood, keeping track of the food they are on. Puppy food consistently produces the worst results, especially in large breeds and those predisposed to joint issues. I would highly suggest attending a Pet Hastings structure seminar before feeding puppy food. She has amazing personal firsthand experience, and many photographs. There isn't a single person out there that knows more about it than she, and a vet simply doesn't have the same experience nor done the amount of research.
YOU are a Vet and know more than a Vet? My Vet is very well knowledged on pet foods and their nutrition......
But put aside the stupidity of the food knowlege and regardless, if a small puppy is in that much pain, a proper Veterinarian should investigate....
Enough said........
Um if you look at my previous reply, you'll see that I recommended the puppy go to a veterinarian for extra investiagetion. All I said in my reply afterwards is that a veterinarian is NOT the person to ask about pet food as there is very little nutrition taught in vet school aside from the few promotions put on by companies such as Science Diet, and yes, they make puppy food, which originally came about due to the public's belief that because babies need extra nutrition, all baby animals do. Unfortunatly, as with baby formula, which was originally thought to be much better for babies because of the "extra nutrition," this is all bogus. Many vets also thrive on financial kickbacks from these companies, and so will support them to the end, regardless of the poor nutrition in these foods. I have had several vets argue with me about the food that I feed, trying to push the brands they sell. My own vet had gone to vet school, and after many years of feeding these brands and vaccinating etc noticed that the health of the dogs was declining. She went to a holstic vet school and took seperate nutrition courses. She now sells raw and grain-free foods and does not promote puppy food.
I'm sure your husband can elaborate on how little he learned about nutrition in vet school, aside from some powerpoint presentation that Science Diet put on for him. My friend just got out of vet school in Australia the year before last and was shocked that even to this day, they didn't learn a single thing about nutrition; Just some company stepped in to promote their food and why the ingredients in THEIR food is best, and just how their company could help them out.
There are many vets out there who do choose to ignore their schooling and read up on puppy foods; These are mainly the breeder vets, as we breeders tend to notice over the years the impact of different foods. Like I said; My GSD was put to sleep at 6 months because of the long bones in his front legs growign too fast. He couldn't walk he was in so much pain. We had a great vet who was knowledgeable about large breeds and puppy food, and I haven't fed puppy food since. My puppies mature quickly so it's important to me for them to grow slowly and properly. I've NEVER had a single one of my pups have any noticable growing pains, and no knuckling over. A vet may be the one to sell, but we as breeders and owners are the ones to realluy know what is good for our dogs, and we are the ones who must do the research.
There is no "stupidity" in that, but thank you for the PM; It was a little defensive and immature.
Also; I don't know where you read that I am a vet and more knowledgable than vets. I said that Pat Hastings is more knowledgeable on structure and issues caused by puppy foods than a a vet, because she had studied over 30,000 litters and bred over 30 different breeds, and studied the results of different foods and the structural results. She is the structure guru of the dog world, and has done 10,000 X the amount of research that any vet has on structure.
I highly recommend vets to go to her seminars as it really sheds a light on puppy food. I don't nessecarily agree with her choice food, but I do see the damage that the puppy foods cause through her amazing personal experiences.
http://www.dogfolk.com/
Here is what I have to say about this...
Yes, calcium should be lower in the puppy to allow for even bone growth. High calcium causes increased growth and can lead to bone diseases. However, adult foods are usually calorically less dense and to make up for that, you have to feed more adult food, ultimately leading to more calcium intake...
http://www.dogster.com/forums/Food_a.../thread/663911
According to Pat Hastings, it is actually the calories that are the main issue.
http://roverexposure.com/wordpress/?p=7
"Pat pointed out that in a “natural” situation, a puppy would eat milk, then would get regurgitated food (i.e. food which has already lost some nutrients), then would get the leavings from a kill (i.e. the lower-calorie less-choice parts of the animal), and would only get the high-calorie/all-you-can-eat food when it was old enough to expend the energy actually hunting the food itself. So feeding a high-calorie premium puppy food is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. She says that almost all puppies thrive and grow properly on a high-quality adult diet."
Which makes sense, because when we're looking at morbidly obese babies and toddlers, these children are significantly taller than their normal counterparts.
Numbers and data sound very convincing, but when you listen to someone who has evaluated over 30,000 litters and studied the nutritional effects on growth and structure more than any other person (with no original ties to any food companies) and has come to the very obvious conclusion that puppy food can cause detrimental issues, and you see the pictures of these issues, that is alot more convincing. I wouldn't feed Pat's choice food, myself, based on ingredients; However I would never feed the top worst foods on her list either, which are consistently puppy foods.
Also, I wouldn't see why anyone would feed more adult food to make up for the lost calories in the puppy food. Maybe I am talking in a free-feeder perspective, but my dogs will only eat as much as they want.
I know you're a successful breeder so you've probably done countless hours of research just as I have. I like a lot of what Pat has to say, but I also disagree with some. I haven't studied much on large breeds with kibble, as I'm a raw feeder... so thank you for giving me this information. I'll definitely be doing more research on it.
My friend, after looking at Orijen dog food, showed me this...
Orijen's ALS formulas have 480 kcal per cup. Their adult thas 450.
Their LBP formula has 410.
LBP formulas have come a looooong way in the past 20 years. They are now formulated for controlled growth, with proper calcium levels, correct fat levels, etc. I do agree with her that excess energy will cause fast growth. However, so far I've checked Orijen, Fromm, Acana, and Wellness, and in each and every one the regular adult food has MORE kcal per cup than in the LBP formula, and in some the LBA formula had the same.
So for example, I decide to feed my dog Wellness LBP, and my puppy is a 25 lb Mastiff puppy, he will eat about 2.5-3 cups a day, being in the 6-11 week age range. The adult formula actually recommends feeding the SAME amount for a pup of that size. So LBP is recommending 915 kcal min per day for my pup, but the adult super5mix chicken is recommending 1017.5 not to mention you're increasing calcium intake.
At the end of the day, I'm ALWAYS going to look at calcium levels, and then energy levels if I'm considering it for an ALS food. But I am a firm believer in LBP food...
So maybe it depends on the brand and maker of the food you're feeding.
Maybe it depends on your