Muhammad cartoon row intensifies

[Randi]

While I don't particularly like our danish Prime Minister, I agree that he shouldn't apologise for the drawings printed in a rightwing danish newspaper. I have to say though, it's not a newspaper I'd buy!

I'm reading the Business Paper every day and the business people are terrified what could happen to the danish export, it's most likely already ruined.

However, a lot of muslims here, who are not fanatics, disagree with what the Iman's say. What do these people expect in a country of democracy?

Here's a link and a little video of what it's about:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4670370.stm

In the middle of the page, a bit to the right is a link from Reuters. I'm sure there's more info on this somewhere.

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/

[Edwina's Secretary]

I am almost (but not quite ;) :rolleyes: ) speechless from this. I understand the cartoons causing offense. But if no one was ever allowed to do or say anything that might cause offense to another....well we would all be in a permanent state of paralysis.

If these cartoons offend you...don't look at them. If the cover of Rolling Stone (with some guy portrayed as Jesus) offends you .....don't buy the magazine ....don't look at it.

But to boycott anything made in California (because that is where Rolling Stones is published) because of it just doesn't make sense.

Paxil in the drinking water.....PLEASE!

[Lady's Human]

ES, please, no paxil in the drinking water, the DT's are dangerous. :D

One of the military boards I'm a member of has started a "BUY DANISH"
campaign because of the stance the government has taken, hoping to offset any negative effects. to quote one of the members "any time I can buy cookies and beer and help out an ally, I'm all for it!"

[RICHARD]

ES, please, no paxil in the drinking water, the DT's are dangerous. :D

"any time I can buy cookies and beer and help out an ally, I'm all for it!"

Paxil?

I thought it was viagra?!?!?!? Here in El Lay there is a problem with vitamins, medicines and other things that humans take and do not metabolize...it ends up in the water!!!

----------------------------------


Guess what kind of beer I am gonna drink for the BIG GAME on Sunday?

Randi,

The scariest part of this "protest" is that a group will protest against "ink on paper" and have no reaction to "blood on concrete".

People cannot satirize a religious being, but it's quite alright to blow people up for a religious being...the hypocrisy isnumbing!

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

I hadn't heard about this, but I did hear that the Danish Muslims are in an uproar about the government banning the wearing of berkas (sp?). The government sees the berka as a sign of repression against women and they don't want women to feel repressed in their country. They were talking about other things too, but some idiot woman cut me off so I had to pay attention to the road rather than the radio, then they went on to say that it was a little odd that the Danish government would ban such a thing because their country is known for it's willingness to let people live their lives without discrimination of any sort. Oh, and they said it's rather odd also, because there are about a total of 24 berka wearers in the country so the reporters couldn't figure out what the uproar was about.

However, I'm not sure if it was all "Danish government" or "Netherlands government" they were talking about since I'm not clear on the exact divisions between the two. Sorry Randi. :o Denmark is a part of the Netherlands, along with Holland and possibly other countries?

[Lady's Human]

T+P-

The Netherlands and Holland are the same country, The Netherlands being the proper term for the country. The Netherlands are to the northwest of Germany, and to the northeast of Belgium. Denmark is on the peninsula sticking out from the north of Germany that splits the Baltic and the North Seas.(The finger that points to the Scandanavian countries)



:D

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Thanks LH, but isn't Holland also part of the Netherlands?

[Lady's Human]

Holland is a Province of the Netherlands. Sry, forgot to put that in there. Oops! :D

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

That's why I was confused. I seemed to remember Holland being referred to as the Netherlands, but I knew Denmark was also. Now I know - thanks. :D

[popcornbird]

I find PT to be a very interesting place.

Anyone says something against gays, everyone's furious (this applies to people saying it on PT, or to news reports). If such a cartoon was made against another group of people, everyone around here would be furious. I say this based on my 'almost 4 years experience' on the forums. Actually, its like this in most of the world. When it has to do with Muslims, somehow, its all 'okay'. :rolleyes: Sheesh.

I will join my Muslim brothers and sisters in their anger and fury against this cartoon, and against those who made and promote it. I cannot STAND to see anyone ridicule Prophet Muhammad, or Moses, or Jesus, or Abraham, or ANY other prophet sent by God. When someone does or says something with the intent of hurting an entire nation, they deserve to be condemned. :(

[caseysmom]

I don't really care for humor that is at someone else's expense however condemned seems a bit of a strong word to me. Not sure what they should be condemned to. From what I understood the owner of the paper demoted the guy who did this.

[Killearn Kitties]

I see that a Jordanian newspaper has reprinted some of the cartoons today. I will be interested to hear what reaction that brings.

This from the BBC's website.

"Jordanian independent tabloid al-Shihan reprinted three of the cartoons on Thursday, saying people should know what they were protesting about, AFP news agency reports.

"Muslims of the world be reasonable," wrote editor Jihad Momani.

"What brings more prejudice against Islam, these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras or a suicide bomber who blows himself up during a wedding ceremony in Amman?"

Link to today's update (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4673908.stm)

[Lady's Human]

PCB, most of the time when someone publishes something offensive to Americans the rest of America doesn't start calling for the death of the offender. If anything they ask that the offender be fired.

I haven't seen the cartoons, and might not like them if I did, but I wouldn't boycott an entire country over them. I support the Danish Government in their protection of the freedom of speech, not what the speech was.

The paper has also published an explanation and an apology :

http://www.jp.dk/meninger/ncartikel:aid=3527646

[gini]

PCB, most of the time when someone publishes something offensive to Americans the rest of America doesn't start calling for the death of the offender. If anything they ask that the offender be fired.

I haven't seen the cartoons, and might not like them if I did, but I wouldn't boycott an entire country over them. I support the Danish Government in their protection of the freedom of speech, not what the speech was.

The paper has also published an explanation and an apology :

http://www.jp.dk/meninger/ncartikel:aid=3527646


I have been thinking about this thread ever since early this morning. I had one main thought - why - why, is it that the word DEATH has to be the response. LH just expressed my concern much better than I could have.

[lizbud]

I have not seen the cartoons so I can't comment to much about
them, but if I understand, any picture of Muhammud whould have been
seen as an insult.

I did think this comment was a something that Muslims should think
over.

"Muslims of the world be reasonable," wrote editor Jihad Momani.

"What brings more prejudice against Islam, these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras or a suicide bomber who blows himself up during a wedding ceremony in Amman"

[Lady's Human]

Agreed, Liz. His comments were the most sensible remarks on the whole affair.


(Liz, you're scaring me, this is three times we've agreed in the last month)

[RICHARD]

Let's pull out the PIT BULL card.


Same difference.


A few pits attack and kill people.

"let's ban the breed!"

Why?

Because of the few bad ones out there?

Dogs cannot figure right from wrong. They go by instinct.

In order for ANY GROUP to be looked at without a jaundiced eye, let them clean their own porch before they demand the neighbors clean theirs.

I am amazed that people who have not seen a cartoon would want someone dead. (I also heard that people were clamoring for kidnappings and more violence against the west...)

this is the first time I have seen anyone buring flags and effigies in the street, shooting Ak-47s into the air or planning for kidnappings over a cartoon.


It truly is mystifying.

[popcornbird]

LH, there is a difference between insulting a country, and insulting God's prophet that billions believe in and love so deeply. I wouldn't really care if someone said something offensive about a Muslim 'country', but a cartoon of Prophet Muhammad with bombs strapped around him...:mad:... That just infuriates me. It is kinda of like how a Christian would feel if someone did such a thing against Jesus, and published it for all the world to see. Of course Christians would be very angry. I'm sure Muslims would join Christians in the anger too, because we believe Jesus is a prophet of God and love him. Offending a 'country', and doing something like this, that is basically attacking the vital beliefs of 1/5th of the entire world population is a completely different thing. I can't understand blaming the whole Denmark for it. I'm only angry with those responsible, and yes, they need to apologize/take action against it.

[Lady's Human]

PCB, people make similarly offensive statements about Christ all the time (the Last Temptation of Christ(movie) Piss christ (a theoretical work of art), the list is endless, yet the Christian world does not call for the offender's head on a platter, as many imams and the "arab street" have done. Salman Rushdie is STILL underground because of a fatwah against him from decades ago. We have our wingnuts,(Pat Robertson) but they normally don't incite entire populations to riot and burn flags.

Again, I support the actions of the Danish government, not because I agree with the cartoons, but because to steal a quote "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend your right to say it until my death".

[Pawsitive Thinking]

A few fanatics are being spoon fed by the media (or paid) to blow this out of proportion..................the world is in a bad enough state as it is without this sort of nonsense

[caseysmom]

There was a british man on a talk show this morning that said a few of the facts weren't making it over to the american press...one of those was that for months none of the muslims in Denmark cared about the cartoons and then an iman in another country made some pictures of what he thinks the Danish think of muslims and this got people up in outrage when he had made those up himself. Those are different drawings than the original 12 cartoons but were highly offensive.

Not sure of fact 2, I had to come in to work.

[popcornbird]

Very honestly, I think the media blows anything that has to do with Muslims out of proportion. Their reason? I don't know, but it seems to me they have a goal of turning the world against Islam and Muslims, and that's why they seem to show these things, and make it like the whole Muslim world wants to hurt anyone from Denmark. :rolleyes: Its kind of funny how people get influenced by the media so easily. Its a twisted image the media likes to present, and funny how so many come to biased conclusions based on that.

I laugh so hard when people look at Muslim women as 'oppressed' because of the over garments we wear to cover ourselves when going outside. Have any of these people ever asked Muslim women how they feel about that? Speaking for myself, my family, my friends, strangers posting on internet forums, ANY Muslim woman I know, I can tell you, we LOVE wearing it, and to not be allowed to wear it would be 'oppression' to us. It gives us a sense of dignity and security, and gives strange men the message of *do NOT touch me*...he he he. It makes me feel free from the lustful glances that so many women have to deal with, and living in the mainstream society, I *know* that it doesn't end at just lustful glances. Very often, especially amongst youngsters, it goes a lot further, and many times leads to broken families, and hurt/angry people in society.

My point in this...I just want to give you some feedback from the Muslim point-of-view. Am I hurt by the Prophet Muhammad cartoons? Of course I am. Any Muslim would be angered by such a thing. I do not, however, know anyone who resorts to violence because of this, other than what the media shows. I certainly do not condone such violence or such behavior. Its ridiculous. I believe Prophet Muhammad would be very angry if he knew how some of these people are behaving. There are stories from the time of Prophet Muhammad of his enemies who tried to kill him. His companions captured them and took them as prisoners to the Prophet. Prophet Muhammad treated those prisoners with such kindness, treating them to the best of meals, and then released them without harm. Instead of leaving him, they were touched by his kindness and behavior, and returned to him to become Muslims. This is how Prophet Muhammad treated people who were not only against him, but were plotting to kill him, and turned them from his worst enemies, to his dearest companions. A true Muslim who loves Prophet Muhammad would follow his example when it comes to such things and not lose their minds or behave in such insanity.

All of the violence we see is on the media. I have family in Muslim countries...in Pakistan, and in the United Arab Emirates. They haven't said a thing about any such violence on the streets. I'm sure there are people out there protesting, and if its peaceful protesting to show the world we're not dead people...we will not allow anyone to say such things against Prophet Muhammad, fine. I'm all for peaceful protests to have your voice heard. There's no reason for violence though. Some people are just idiots, and the media LOVES to show 'those' people, blow things out of proportion, and give Islam a 'false' bad image. I'm quite positive the media is making a much bigger deal out of this than it is. There are probably protests, but I doubt there is this much violence.

Besides...can't people see any GOOD in the Muslims? What was going on in New Orleans at the time of Hurricane Katrina? People were looting, raping, behaving terribly at a time of such tragedy. Did any of these things happen in Pakistan after the recent earthquakes? No. The stories on the news were more like victims welcoming reporters and sharing whatever little food they had to eat with them. Its something to think about. The media just likes to show the bad things. Its a pity that sensible people should believe all Muslims are bad because of the media. Face it. There is good and bad in every society. EVERY society. Media just likes to show the bad and conceal the good.

I have a question. Do any of you have Muslim friends?...and if you do, have you ever seen them behave in a violent manner? I could understand people who don't know any Muslims believing the media, but people who have Muslim friends shouldn't think this way. I'm sure most of you don't know many Muslims though...perhaps.

[gini]

The following article is currently appearing on CNN.com.

Is this what Mohammad taught? To always seek revenge? To call for vengeance?




Friday, February 3, 2006; Posted: 2:42 p.m. EST (19:42 GMT)

Muslim protesters burn a Danish flag in a Palestinian refugee camp in Sidon, Lebanon.


GAZA CITY (AP) -- Tens of thousands of angry Muslims marched through Palestinian cities, burning the Danish flag and calling for vengeance Friday against European countries where caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad were published.

Angry protests against the drawings spread in the Muslim world.

In Washington, the State Department criticized the drawings, calling them "offensive to the beliefs of Muslims."

In Iraq, thousands demonstrated after Friday mosque prayers, and the country's leading Shiite cleric denounced the drawings. About 4,500 people rallied in the southern city of Basra and burned the Danish flag.

Muslims in Turkey, Pakistan, Indonesia and Malaysia demonstrated against the European nations whose papers published the caricatures, including one depicting the Muslim prophet wearing a turban fashioned into a bomb.

[caseysmom]

I understand what your saying pcb, all these signs saying to butcher people, etc are really hurting the worlds views of muslims...thats just the way it is.

A lot of people are saying look at the outrage over a cartoon, what about having some outrage over deaths that have occured, that is the perception.

I do know people that live in coutries that dictate they cover themselves and they do not like it and take it as an assault on their liberties.

[Killearn Kitties]

PCB I realise that your post comes from the heart, but I genuinely fail to see what it has to do with freedom of speech. That is what this thread is about.

No sensible person believes that all Muslims are bad because of the media, as you suggest. I can't speak for your media, but ours certainly does not suggest it. Nor do people believe that all Muslims are bad, period. However, the failure of some Muslim groups to condem terrorists and extremists, does harm the entire community.

[Randi]

I was going to post a really good link yesterday, but the site has been hacked. :( I'm too tired to comment on any of this now, but here's a link in english: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4674628.stm

Goodnight! :)

[lizbud]

PCB I realise that your post comes from the heart, but I genuinely fail to see what it has to do with freedom of speech. That is what this thread is about.

No sensible person believes that all Muslims are bad because of the media, as you suggest. I can't speak for your media, but ours certainly does not suggest it. Nor do people believe that all Muslims are bad, period. However, the failure of some Muslim groups to condem terrorists and extremists, does harm the entire community.

I agree with these comments completely, especially the last sentence.

Where is the outrage from the Muslim community when their prophet's
commandments are ignored by slashing the throats of helpless captives.

[RICHARD]

this is kinda off topic but follow me for a bit.


There is a new backlash against the illegal immigrants that are flooding the state of Cah lee fuh nee ah.

The state is spending more and more money for education, medical help for these people.

We are also being pushed to give them driver's licenses, state aid - welfare and food stamps.

Anytime someone speaks out against the I.I.'s the people start to cry RACISM, HATE and what ever else you can think of.

I am a first generation Cal lee fuh nee an, and American, with roots from Mexico.


Do I find the II's offensive? You betcha! For all the reasons above.

I have found out that many of the newer immigrants come here and use the services, take advantage of all the things that the people who came here legally fought and worked for.

I walk into a super market and see a woman open a package, feed herself, her kids and ditch the bag of food before they get to the cashier.

I stopped feeling sorry for them A LONG TIME AGO.

Go to a store and watch people buying milk and juice, steak and eggs with my money....I do not begrudge them a good life, but I would like to seem them put more effort into getting it-not waiting for a hand out.


The thing I find most offensive are the 'rallys' where these poor illiterate people hold up signs (mispelled) asking to treated with dignity and the idea that they should be given 'rights'!

They are just pawns for the industrys that use them as cheap labor, the politicians who use them a cheap photo ops and as a bargaining strategy.

I choose to be realistic in what I believe and what I'll fight for.

What I find truly offensive is having an Iman preach hate and murder over a frigging cartoon.....

The backlash isn't people burning Danish flags in the streets of the middle east...It's the rest of the world :rolleyes: at a small group of people who do not know the meaning of free speech..

Yep, they can burn all the flags they want. Try to burn the Quran on the same block and you'll get shot..

It's freedom of speech when you tackle the Great Satan that lives in the West.


But like the old saying goes, when trying to burn the Quran...


DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!

This is not a rant against all Muslims, It's a knock against all the morons who use Islam and their positions to promote hate all across the planet.


And what make me think this is even more silly is the fact that most people are kept illiterate by their countries and their leaders.....

And If the Muhammed should be depicted in any graphic form -how do they even know that it's a cartoon against their religion?

It's the poor schmucks being used by the people "in the know" that I feel sorry for...

[RICHARD]

I just heard some of the media outlets in the Middle East are asking for cartoon about the Holocaust.


Here is my entry.

------------------------------------------------------------











-------------------------------------------------------------


Because the Holocaust never happened, according to a small faction of Muslims, there should be no submissions... :confused:

I am calling for a boycott. Of any, and all, bedsheets made of mulsin cotton! :confused:

[Randi]

It seems the link I wanted to post last week is back up:

http://blog.newspaperindex.com/2005/12/10/un-to-investigate-jyllands-posten-racism/

Anyone wanting to discuss this further, there's a good opportunity in the link at the bottom of the page.

[JenBKR]

I wasn't going to respond, but I'll just say that I can understand Popcornbird's take on the situation. If it was Jesus that was the target of the cartoon, I would be pretty upset. Not to say that I condone at all the threats and violence, but I can't judge an entire group of people based on a few extremists. There are extremists in Christianity that I'm not proud of, people that take it way too far, and I hope not to be judged by them as well.

[popcornbird]

Having freedom of speech is one thing. Using it in the wrong way is not acceptable when it comes to the media spreading it, especially when it is intended to hurt a major part of the world. That's called the misuse of freedoms. Too much of anything is good for nothing. If its an individual using his freedom of speech to say such things, fine. A newspaper showing it to the whole world and in such an insultive way is NOT acceptable.

Richard, I wasn't going to answer you, but I can't stand it any longer. Words cannot express how much you anger me sometimes. Do NOT dare bring the Quran in this. Comparing the Quran to flags? Shame on you. There's a major difference between flags and a book people believe to be from God. For Muslims, without the Quran, there is no life. Its more important than oxygen to us. You compare the wrong things. If you want to burn the flag of a Muslim country, big deal. That would hardly offend anyone. Even if it would, certainly not to such an extent. It makes me furious that you would dare mention the Quran in this way. I can't believe I'm responding this nicely when I'm so angry inside. Ugh.

I'm still observing and pondering over the hypocracy here. Its actually quite amusing. Sheesh.

[caseysmom]

PCB, I think this really is hard for us westerners to relate to, try to remember that. People drive around with a cartoon of a boy peeing on the cross all the time, to me you just can't get that mad about things like that life is to short and its not worth it.

On the other hand I think the cartoon was in poor taste but look people are getting killed over this that part is just overboard. Try to remember those are all symbols and people will desecrate them, whats in your heart is whats important.

[RICHARD]

Richard, I wasn't going to answer you, but I can't stand it any longer. Words cannot express how much you anger me sometimes. Do NOT dare bring the Quran in this. Comparing the Quran to flags? Shame on you. There's a major difference between flags and a book people believe to be from God. For Muslims, without the Quran, there is no life. Its more important than oxygen to us. You compare the wrong things. If you want to burn the flag of a Muslim country, big deal. That would hardly offend anyone. Even if it would, certainly not to such an extent. It makes me furious that you would dare mention the Quran in this way. I can't believe I'm responding this nicely when I'm so angry inside. Ugh.



Freedom of speech in the Middle East?

We regularly have people burning flags and books, bibles and churches here in the UNITED STATES. No problem.

Apparently you miss the point. If these protestors have the right to burn Danish, Swiss and any other flags, why not burn a Quran?? I merely pointed out the hypocrisy behind the idea of the self righteousness of the idiots that are fanning the flames of this controversy.

I recognize the poor people used as pawns in the demonstrations and the AHs that are at the head of these countries, laughing at how these cartoons keep the heat off of them-They keep the populace poor, shoeless and illiterate....in order to keep themselves in power...

Hating the Great Satan keeps the people ticked off at them and not us!

You burn the book, not the ideals behind it. Same thing with any paper product.

Asking for Holocaust cartoons really makes sense...


Of course I can burn anything I want. It's my right. Should I be stupid enough to go downtown to a mosque and do it there I am assured that a few people will take exception and I probably will go to jail.

Hypocrisy?

Look it up in the dictionary.

It's people taking the teachings of Muhammed and calling for the infidels to be smitten.

It's an iman, with nothing better to do, advocating death because of a cartoon.

It's the guy from the Council on Muslim Affairs (or somesuch organization) coming on American TV and saying that it is wrong to portray the Prophet in pen......But not acknowledging the hooliganism going on...instead he makes excuses and says that the teachings of Islam are misunderstood.


Just like here in Lost Angeles after the riots in 1994.

People get the kneejerk reaction going and all hell breaks loose.
Burn down your neighborhood, the stores on the corners, burn it all down.

Just like the car fires in France and Germany. Show your discontent by destroying everything around you. Then come back and tell the world that you are mistrusted, misunderstood and not respected.

------------------------------------------
When the Holocaust cartoons are printed watch what happens.

Rabbis will shake their heads and wonder. The people who actually suffered during that time will shed a tear and no one will take to the streets to protest in front of any embassy...

-----------------------------------------------

I'll let you in on a secret. If I was stuck on a desert island with a Bible
and no paper to wipe my rear end, using it in that way wouldn't diminish the thought or idea behind it. It's what you believe and what's in your heart.

Not some moron who says, "Boycott, Kill, Protest, Destroy..."

There are plenty of voices like that that rise above the din. It's up to the people at his feet to pull him down and denounce that kind of 'free speech'-until that happens, I do not buy one word of it.

Bruce Hornsby says it best-

"That's just the way it is, Somethings will NEVER change."

[Pam]

Well I have stayed out of this up until now. My first thought was *it's all about how one responds to a wrong.* That said, of course the cartoon was insulting. No doubt about it. I think what bothers most people is the response to the cartoon.

As a Christian I have seen *zealots* (and I use the term very loosely) embarrass me. A good example of this is those who, supposedly in the name of Christ, will bomb an abortion facility. Of course the papers always are quick to report if the person has claimed they are a Christian and doing it for the Lord or some such nonsense. Never would Jesus condone that. Of course we all know that the murder of a doctor or the bombing of a facility is not the appropriate response for the taking of the lives of the unborn (and yes I do feel that abortion is murder but that is a topic for another day). That said, I think what is at question here is the response of the people.

PCB I feel for you in that I have been embarrassed by the actions of people who claim to be of my faith. Of course they are deceived and are not Christians at all because of the evilness of their actions. Please don't let this get you down. The media enjoys reporting bad news and bad actions and revels in the actions of hippocrits of all faiths and sometimes paints the entire religion with the same brush. I hope that there are enough people out there to see that the actions of those so-called Muslims and so-called Christians who do these terrible deeds are really not followers of any religion other than hate.

[JenBKR]

Well I have stayed out of this up until now. My first thought was *it's all about how one responds to a wrong.* That said, of course the cartoon was insulting. No doubt about it. I think what bothers most people is the response to the cartoon.

As a Christian I have seen *zealots* (and I use the term very loosely) embarrass me. A good example of this is those who, supposedly in the name of Christ, will bomb an abortion facility. Of course the papers always are quick to report if the person has claimed they are a Christian and doing it for the Lord or some such nonsense. Never would Jesus condone that. Of course we all know that the murder of a doctor or the bombing of a facility is not the appropriate response for the taking of the lives of the unborn (and yes I do feel that abortion is murder but that is a topic for another day). That said, I think what is at question here is the response of the people.

PCB I feel for you in that I have been embarrassed by the actions of people who claim to be of my faith. Of course they are deceived and are not Christians at all because of the evilness of their actions. Please don't let this get you down. The media enjoys reporting bad news and bad actions and revels in the actions of hippocrits of all faiths and sometimes paints the entire religion with the same brush. I hope that there are enough people out there to see that the actions of those so-called Muslims and so-called Christians who do these terrible deeds are really not followers of any religion other than hate.

Exactly - you put that better than I did.

[Miss Z]

I've been following the story on the news, and really it is a little silly, i mean they had placards that said 'behead those who insult islam' and stuff like that. Yes, it may have been offensive, but death threats are overboard. And as others have said, stuff like this happens to christianity all the time, and also around here jews are likely to be called names and stuff, but there's never been reactions quite on that scale before. I know many Muslims in my school and they are ashamed of the protesters and some aren't really that bothered, after all, it's just a cartoon, and they're designed to be a joke, not to take seriously.

[lizbud]

An interesting article which gave me more to think about.


Mocking Muhammad

Published February 8, 2006


For all the uproar they have caused around the globe, the 12 cartoons of the Muslim prophet Muhammad commissioned by the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten are about as juvenile as the stunt that produced them.

Muhammad with devil horns.

Muhammad with a bomb in his turban.

Muhammad greets a band of suicide bombers at the entrance to heaven with the words, "Stop, stop, we've run out of virgins."

It's not surprising that Muslims, who believe any artistic rendering of the prophet is blasphemous, were offended. Offending them seems to have been the point of the exercise. The editor of the paper invited cartoonists to submit drawings of Muhammad to challenge what he said was a climate of self-censorship.

Angry Muslims demanded an apology. What they got was a simplistic defense of the right to free expression.

Newspapers across Europe reprinted the cartoons as a sign of solidarity. The German paper Die Welt printed the bomb-in-a-turban drawing on its front page and asserted defiantly that in free societies, "there is a right to blasphemy." The daily France Soir republished the drawings under the headline, "Yes, We Have the Right to Caricature God."

All of this indignant posturing overlooks the fact that nobody's stopping editors from publishing whatever they wish. Freedom of speech, after all, means, freedom from government sanction, not freedom from angry reactions by your readers. Petitioned by Muslim groups who wanted the newspapers prosecuted, the governments said they could neither control nor apologize for the actions of a free press.

The governments held to this position even as the flag burnings and boycotts of Danish goods escalated to mass demonstrations and the torching of embassies in Syria and Lebanon. Several Muslim countries recalled their ambassadors from Denmark, as if the Danish government were somehow to blame for the cartoons.

Many Muslims undoubtedly fail to see that distinction because their own governments dictate what is and isn't published. Some of those same governments aren't troubled by content that is offensive to other groups, regularly permitting or even encouraging the publication of anti-Semitic material.

In some Arab countries the message is controlled so tightly that U.S. officials are openly suspicious of, for example, the "spontaneous" protests in Syria, in which marchers chanted slogans against Americans and Jews on their way to set the Danish embassy ablaze.

The editor of the Danish paper that started it all says he's stunned by the response. Yes, the violence is a stunning response.

Yet, those who aren't offended by the cheesy cartoons can still be dismissive of the various papers' protestations that some greater good was served by publishing them. It's arrogant and disingenuous to claim the high moral ground for insulting an entire religion just because you can.

The Danish paper says it is sorry for hurting feelings but defends its right to publish the cartoons. American newspapers, including the Tribune, support that position. Most, though, including this one, have chosen not to print the drawings themselves. Editors here and elsewhere decided the story could be told without publishing images that many readers would find deeply offensive.

Yes, we have the right to mock Muhammad, Jesus Christ, anyone. But with rights come responsibilities. "Just because a society has almost unlimited freedom of expression," cartoonist Garry Trudeau told the San Francisco Chronicle, "doesn't mean we should ever stop thinking about its consequences in the real world."

[RICHARD]

Yes, we have the right to mock Muhammad, Jesus Christ, anyone. But with rights come responsibilities. "Just because a society has almost unlimited freedom of expression," cartoonist Garry Trudeau told the San Francisco Chronicle, "doesn't mean we should ever stop thinking about its consequences in the real world."

Hmmmm, Trudeau thinking about the consequences? THAT IS FUNNY!

I'll have to read his strip from now on! ;)

[Cataholic]

Liz- I agree with that last part, about responsibilities...but, what about the idea that you can't control what someone else says or believes, or chooses to portray, so, just turn away?

I mean, we can't ever control what someone else does (at least not in this country, anyhow)- i.e., the cartooners, so, put the effort back where you have some control- on you (not you, Liz...but, you, the public), the viewer. Change your(not you, Liz) attitude towards the offense....

I just can't really envision mustering up such emotion over a comic strip. And, if it is choosing between the lesser of the two evils- I will choose irresponsible freedom of expression over censorship.

[caseysmom]

I do think its ironic that freedom of religions is enjoyed by muslims in all western countries but if a christian is caught with a bible in some middle eastern countries we are in big trouble. That is a bit of hypocrisy in my book.

[RICHARD]

Since everyone has their undies in a bunch about cartoons, where is the indignation about a REAL problem..


The tapes released by the kidnappers of Jill Carrol?

[Cataholic]

Richard- I usually don't see much mainstream news, not by choice, but, but by design, and was shocked to see that major story. You are so right, so right. Where IS the indignation over Ms. Carroll's capture?

[lizbud]

What ever happened to Diplomacy? Does any country have Diplomats
anymore? With two cultures so vastly different from each other, there
needs to be better communication between the countries, or the world
is in big trouble. :(

[Lady's Human]

Most western countries have diplomats in the middle east, but it is VERY hard to discuss diplomacy when your embassy is under attack.

[RICHARD]

How can you reason with a group of people who send their own relatives out with a bomb on their back?

"Brother/sister/cousin.......Paradise awaits you if you choose martyrdom.."


"HEY AMIR, I'm sending over my cousin, He wears a bomb vest in a 44 long!!!"

[lizbud]

Most western countries have diplomats in the middle east, but it is VERY hard to discuss diplomacy when your embassy is under attack.


I'm saying if we (Westerners) had a better understanding of their culture
and they ours, these differences need not get to this point.

[lizbud]

This is an article I ran across today that offers an interesting idea
of what's really up with all the Islamic protests.


Headline: Behind the cartoon protests
Byline: The Monitor's View
Date: 02/10/2006

The clash over the Muhammad cartoons isn't just between "the West" and
Islam. It's more between Muslims. Protests over the derogatory cartoons
were purposely fanned by Arab leaders who need to look like mightier
defenders of Islam than the jihadists who want to overthrow them and
unite all Muslims.

Many actions by the West serve as merely a foil in a long intra-Muslim
struggle over whether to return the Middle East to some bygone Islamic
unity of centuries past. The cartoons published in a Danish newspaper
were used as an excuse to score points in a bigger game.

This Muslim struggle over whether to create an Islamic empire
reappeared in modern times with the 1979 Islamic revolution in Iran.
Now, after more than two decades of trying to export their revolution
through terrorist groups and oil money, Iran's Shiite mullahs are
losing the battle. They were drained by a long war with Iraq during the
1980s but, most of all, by the misrule of their own, now disenchanted
people.

Besieged at home by youthful dissent, Iran's clerics have reverted to
Persian nationalism, Israel baiting, and a quest for the ultimate tool
against those who oppose its claim to Islamic leadership, nuclear
weapons.

That latter move has only widened the split between Islam's rival
camps, the Shiites and the Sunnis, who are divided over who should have
led the faith after the prophet Muhammad's passing. Arab leaders have
sought the West's help in thwarting Iran's nuclear ambition.

Competing with Iran for Islamic leadership since the 1990s has been
Sunni-dominated Al Qaeda.

Its leaders, now on the run, may still believe terrorist attacks on the
West, such as 9/11, can rally the faithful under its flag or bring a
flood of followers into Afghanistan and Iraq. But the group's violent
tactics, especially beheadings or killings of Muslim bystanders in
bombings, have turned off the "umma," or the wider community of
Muslims.

Al Qaeda's internal memos have admitted its tactical mistakes. "We are
in a race for the hearts and minds of our umma," wrote the group's
ideologue, Ayman Zawahiri, last year. And in a recently released audio
tape, the fugitive Osama bin Laden tried to restore his slipping
legitimacy with Muslims.

Strangely, the jihadists on the ascendency are those using a Western
import, democracy. The Palestinian group Hamas and the Egyptian Muslim
Brotherhood have won impressive gains in recent elections. Reflecting
the views of their voters, they're now mainly occupied with how to
govern well. Both appear to be moderating their rhetoric.

The mistake of many jihadists is to think that Islamic unity through
the sword can bring the dignity and respect sought by Arabs and
Iranians from their governments and the West. But religion can't be
imposed.

And to always create an enemy out of Western actions is no way to
uplift Islam's image. While the West can do more not to antagonize
Muslims, it is really up to Muslims to resolve their internal conflict.
So far, the radicals appear on the run, with some at least running
toward the ballot box rather than the ammunition box.

[caseysmom]

Unfortunately religion is being used in Iran to control the masses. Here in the U.S. we must never forget to separate church and state.

[poofy]

What would Muhammad do?
History suggests the prophet was more pragmatic than followers rioting in his name.

By Jamil Momand, JAMIL MOMAND is a professor of biochemistry at Cal State Los Angeles.

"Not again," I thought. "Don't we Muslims ever get tired of complaining?"

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-momand9feb09,0,352166.story?track=hpmostemailedlin k

[lizbud]

Thanks for the link. Good article. :)

[Sus]

I think it is safe to say that the publication of the Mohammad drawings in a danish newspaper resulted in an "unholy mess"...? :rolleyes:

When Randi showed me that she had started a thread on this subject, I could not believe it! I thought it was very much unlike her to bring up a subject this controversial... and I was almost afraid to read it!

Now I'm glad that I did, because it made me feel a lot less alone, seeing that your thoughts resemble mine. When I began to read the thread, I thought that I - as a dane - would have a lot of explaining to do, but I can see that there is no need for that. I also enjoyed reading the fine newspaper articles posted by Lizbud and Poofy.

I have seen the drawings on TV only. The "Jyllands Posten" is not a big newspaper in DK, and so I (and most other danes) wouldn't have known anything about them - had the muslims not reacted so strongly.

In the beginning all I felt was total astonishment and disbelief: How on earth could anyone be so mad about a measly drawing in a paper, when there are so many terrible things going on in the world? As things developed, the absurdity of it all made me giggle even if the crisis and the wrath of the muslims should be taken very seriously and is nothing to giggle about. But during the first days of the crisis it was all so completely surreal to me, and I had to struggle to really get it into my system, that this was actually happening. I remember thinking that if I didn't get a grip soon, I should probably still be laughing when a bomb landed on my head.

After that first reaction followed some days of fear. I didn't sleep very well at night. Not so much for the fear of incomprehensible bombs but because of the fear of being misunderstood and harmed as a result of the stupid misunderstanding, that our Prime Minister didn't want to apologize for the drawings, when the truth is that he has no jurisdiction over the danish newspapers and therefore cannot decide what they may or may not publish. It really made me uneasy that the angry communities seemed unable to understand this separation between government and the media. As for possible terrorist retaliation on danish soil, all I can do is hope that I'm somewhere else than the bomb on that particular day.

I think it was allright for the editor to apologize, though. As long as he only apologizes for the sorrow and hurt he has caused, just as I would apologize to a friend if I inadvertedly overstepped her boundaries and made her sad or cross with me.

I would absolutely hate it, if Anders Fogh ever apologizes on behalf of the nation for bringing the drawings! That would be apologizing for us being danes! It would be apologizing for the fact that we are brought up in another culture and with other traditions. Before I began writing this I looked up the word "satire" in my dictionary - I wasn't sure that the concept existed in english (sorry!) - but I see that it does. In my view satire means a great deal to us. We use it a lot. We soften harsh truths with it, and we use it to make problems easier to live with. The concept is part of what is is to be danish. At least that is what I think. Where I come from, its ok to make jokes of almost everything - the only exception being jokes about the disabled. That, luckily, is still a taboo.

In general, I guess, danes are an "unholy bunch!" I guess as a people we are more practical than spiritual, and we prefer a good laugh over a prayer any day (sorry, no offense intended! Is only explanatory). Personally, I do recognize the enormeous strength you can gather from having a belief, all I am saying is that believing in any power higher than the country's prime minister is not an easy task for a dane. If anything, we should be pitied rather than persecuted for not having that ability, and for being unable to understand people that do!

Well, that's just what I think... and I shall always strive to keep in mind, that your opinion is just as good as mine!

And now I forgot the smilies again..! :)

Lots of love,
Sus and Bella

[Randi]

I think it is safe to say that the publication of the Mohammad drawings in a danish newspaper resulted in an "unholy mess"...? :rolleyes:
Oh yes, indeed it did!! :eek: However, the muslims living in Denmark have certainly been forced to take a stand, they are forming various groups, fighting each other. I personally like the views of Naser Khader, who is a member of the Danish Parliament - now more popular than ever. Not what the fanatics had expected. :D

I also think it was allright for the editor to apologize, though - as long as he only apologizes for the sorrow and hurt he has caused. The Prime Minister made a lame attempt to get things settled in an interview on an Arabic TV station - he didn't do very well, it was actually quite an embarressing performance!


... that believing in any power higher than the country's prime minister is not an easy task for a dane.
It's hard enough to believe anything he says!!

Ps. I saw the drawings, they're in the link I posted earlier - I've seen a lot worse than those!

[RICHARD]

I heard that the Pakastanis burnt down some American interests in that country....Fast food places and banks and such....very very smart.

Deny your countryman/women a good job...

[caseysmom]

Richard...if losing jobs isn't bad enough an 8 year old boy died today in the riots...this is truly disgusting to me.

[RICHARD]

Richard...if losing jobs isn't bad enough an 8 year old boy died today in the riots...this is truly disgusting to me.


The Los Angeles Times printed a picture of a small boy, truly terrified, caught up in a strand of barbed wire....with no one to help him.

The rioters will find a way to bleme that on the West and will choose to ignore their own stupidity.. :rolleyes:

[RICHARD]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11383819/


I haven't had a good laugh in a long time.

-----------------------------------------

He apparently did not realize that 12 cartoonists, not one, drew the drawings that have led to protests across the Muslim world.

“Don’t play with our religion,” read a placard held up by a protester. “No double standards. We want justice!” read another.

In Bangladesh, about 500 protesters marched through streets outside Dhaka’s main mosque, chanting “Down with Islam’s enemies.”

-----------------------------------------------------


I can see this cleric putting a "P.S." on this bounty...

Only the death of the first cartoonist will be valid. :rolleyes:


Double Standards? You HAVE to be kidding!


Down with Islam's enemies?.....Yep, find the Kidnapping/decapitating cowards and then we'll talk, O.k.?

[lizbud]

I believe this man has some very interesting things to say to all Muslims.


Islamic truths
By Mansoor Ijaz, MANSOOR IJAZ is an American Muslim of Pakistani ancestry.


ANOTHER WEEK, another Muslim country burns in rage over months-old Danish cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) in an unflattering light. On Friday it was Libya, and earlier in the week it was my father's homeland, Pakistan, where violent protests were scattered across the nation. Some Muslims have decided that burning cities in defense of a prophet's teachings, which none of them seem willing to practice, is preferable to participating in rational debate about the myths and realities of a religion whose worst enemies are increasingly its own adherents.

This week's events should compel those of us who claim Islam as our system of philosophical guidance to ask hard questions of ourselves in order to revive the religion's essential foundation: justice, peaceful and tolerant coexistence, compassion, the search for knowledge and unwavering faith in the unity of God.

I am an American by birth and a Muslim by faith. For many of my American friends, I am a voice of reason in a sea of Islamist darkness, while many Muslims have called me an "Uncle Tom" for ingratiating myself with the vested interests they seek to destroy through their violence. Mostly, though, I try not to ignore the harsh realities the followers of my religion are often unwilling to face.

The first truth is that most Muslim ideologues are hypocrites. What has Osama bin Laden done for the victims of the 2004 tsunami or the shattered families who lost everything in the Pakistani earthquake last year? He did not build one school, offer one loaf of bread or pay for one vaccination. And yet he, not the devout Muslim doctors from California and Iowa who repair broken limbs and lives in the snowy peaks of Kashmir, speaks the loudest for what Muslims allegedly stand for. He has succeeded in presenting himself as the defender of Islam's poor, and the Western media has taken his jihadist message all the way to the bank.

The hypocrisy only starts there. Muslims and Arabs have done pitifully little to help improve the capacity of the Palestinian people to be good neighbors to their Israeli brethren. Take the money spent by any Middle Eastern royal family at a London hotel or Geneva resort during one month and you could build enough schools and medical clinics to take care of 1,000 Palestinian children for a year. Yet rather than educate and feed Palestinian and Muslim children so they may learn to settle differences through dialogue and debate, instead of by throwing rocks and wearing bombs, the Muslim "haves" put on a few telethons to raise paltry sums for the "have nots" to alleviate the guilt over their palatial gilded cages.

The second truth — one that the West needs to come to grips with — is that there is no such human persona as a "moderate Muslim." You either believe in the oneness of God or you don't. You either believe in the teachings of his prophet or you don't. You either learn those teachings and apply them to the circumstances of life in the country you have chosen to live in, or you shouldn't live there.

Haters of Islam use the simplicity and elegance of its black-and-white rigor for devious political advantage by classifying the Koran's religious edicts as the cult-like behavior of fanatics. The West would win a lot of hearts and minds if it only showed Islam as it really is — telling the story, for example, that the prophet Muhammad was one of the great commodity traders of all time because he based his dealings on uniquely Muslim values, or that the reason he had multiple wives was not for the sake of sex but to give proper homes to the children of women made widows during a time of war. The cartoon imbroglio offered Western media an opportunity to portray the prophet in his many dignified dimensions, not just the distorted ones; sadly, there were few takers.

But to look at angry Islam's reaction on television each night forces the question of what might be possible if all the lost energy of thousands of rioting Muslims went into the villages of Aceh to rebuild lost homes or into Kashmir to construct schools.

In fact, the most glaring truth is that Islam's mobsters fear the West has it right: that we have perfected the very system Islam's holy scriptures urged them to learn and practice. And having failed in their mission to lead their masses, they seek any excuse to demonize those of us in the West and to try to bring us down. They know they are losing the ideological struggle for hearts and minds, for life in all its different dimensions, and so they prepare themselves, and us, for Armageddon by starting fires everywhere in a display of Islamic unity intended to galvanize the masses they cannot feed, clothe, educate or house.

This is not Islam. And the faster its truest believers stand up and demonstrate its values and principles by actions, not words, the sooner a great religion will return to its rightful role as guide for nearly a quarter of humanity.

[Randi]

Thank you, Lizbud, that was a very interesting read.

[Logan]

It certainly was, Liz. Thank you.